You are very very confused. Implants are not skills are not attributes, and the differences between different-bonused implants were still never in question.

So no. It's still a flat increase no matter what you're training and no matter what level it is.

So the OP manages to keep you sane, then, I take it.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Use implants, don't use implants, remap, don't remap, do whatever you want. Its your money paying the sub, how efficiently you use your subbed time to train is up to you.


I have some very effective combat toons that have never had a learning implant implanted, simply because I knew I was going into situations constantly where I was going to lose the pod, and didn't want to keep buying implants. Compared to other toons which have spent their whole time with +4s and +5, the non implanted toons are a full year of SP BEHIND the implanted toons, and they were made at the same time! Do I care? Nope. I freakin love playing on that toon, so even without optimal SP gain, its worth it to me. Only care about what is worth it to you.

Bittervets will constantly give you bad advice in Eve, that's part of the game. The trick is to figure out what advice is really helpful.

Also I don't see any reason to blame CCP. The game is what is. The correct info is published out there. Maybe I should blame them for not having a useful vet training tutorial?

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Its a percentage decrease. Level V skills take days to train. Level I skills take under an hour most of the time. Prove to me that chopping off a few minutes of a train is equal to chopping of a few days.

This is the quote that made me realize that the problem is YOU. If the correct information is published, why are you asking people questions and then complaining? I know the answer, but the mods will delete my post if I actually type it.

My point is also for you. Do you think people just train these level 1 skills save the few minutes then not train any more skills? Those minutes saved over 50 days of level 1 skills will add up to be the exact same amount saved for that Dread LVL V train.

Its a percentage decrease. Level V skills take days to train. Level I skills take under an hour most of the time. Prove to me that chopping off a few minutes of a train is equal to chopping of a few days.

[
They're talking about per level of the skill. Obviously you would not plug in +5's for a level 1 skill to make it train faster but you might for a level 5. Unless you're pure PvE you won't have +5's in 24/7.

This thread is specifically for you. Please read the thread. There are many good examples of how percentages equally apply regardless of the duration of each individual skill. At the end of the month it is all equal.

This truly is middle school level math, yet it seems like 50% can't grasp. Hence my post in the first place.

The answers were specifically for you too! When you've finished smuggung about how amazing you are, how much you know, your ability to to count etc please PLEASE elaborate upon the notion that maximising your SP ph beats maximimising essential core skills that will enhance your enjoyment as a new player.

We didn't lie to you, it was just really difficult to explain it properly in one sentence, and if you follow our advice you only lose a handful of SP vs the ability to NOT DIE LIKE A FOOL IN A STARTER MISSION. We only lied to you to make things easier in the first few weeks ingame - and THIS is what we get. You are a shiney example of those who can count, make logical arguments, warble on endlessly about how clever you are - and STILL completely miss the point. What system are you in?

Actually my post is the exact opposite of what you have said. Plugging in +5 implants to train level 1 skills is just as useful as plugging them in for level 5 skills. This thread has lots of the math to prove it.

No since plugging in +5s for a level one skill would be impractical and it's practicality which is going over your head. I have low-grade implants in for a total cost of 250 mill. To plug in a set of +5s to train a level one skill would require me to pause training, jump clone or destroy my PvP set, plug the +5s in, then not PvP or risk losing billion or more in implants.

On the other hand if I was training the last level of gallante Titan 5 plugging in +5s would be worthwhile even if PvPing because the time saved is substantial.

Edit:

Before you say yeah but if Titan 5 takes 80 days and you save 20 days having them plugged in for 80 day of lower level skills would still save you 20 days (which is true) the difference is with a long skill like Titan 5 you gain zero for the 60 day period, while if you were training for 60 days lots of lower levels skills you might gain +5 cap + 5 speed +5 agility +5 damage etc which means you're not just sitting there for 60 days gaining nothing.

In that case most people don't mind if a skill takes an extra 20 minutes or an extra day because the trade off of not losing multi billions in implants is much more acceptable. Its not just pure skill point training that is a factor, its risk vs reward, denying people uber killmails and being able to more freely engage in risky pvp.

The issue there seems more of a balance between risk and training, not a difference in the balance of individual skills. As someone who plans training in as close to full years as possible (for remap purposes), the benefit of +5's is constantly being presented regardless of the length of any individual skill on the plan. This means it doesn't matter whether I'm training Titan V or Frig I, risking a +5 is risking a +5. I can either play it safe and train faster or take more risks but chose to train slower, but it's very rare that any individual skill has any bearing on that decision.

[
Yeah if you're going for max training then it doesn't matter. But in general, given the difficulties of EVE, its often true that +5's are better only used to quickly get through a long training level and then taken out for lesser implants.

Risk/reward could be a very interesting idea to debate about how and when to use implants. But as stated before, my only message was that implants offer the exact same benefit to skilling up for short and long train skills.

Personally I don't use level 5 because of the risk/reward/time to train for lvl 5. But that's a another matter.

Also why would you take out your +5's for lesser implants?

Yeah if you're going for max training then it doesn't matter. But in general, given the difficulties of EVE, its often true that +5's are better only used to quickly get through a long training level and then taken out for lesser implants.

They're not saying implants work better the higher the skill your training.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Technically you are right.
Practically, they are.

Example:

Amarr Cruiser (Perception + Willpower).

Per and Will are both at 20.

To train it to L1 = 1.250 SP
To train from 4 to 5 = 1.053.725 SP

SP gain per minute = primairy attribute + (secondary attribute / 2)

So with NO implant: 30 SP / minute

With +4 implants: 36 SP / minute

---

Now let's calculate

L1 (no implants): 1250 / 30 = ~42 minutes
L1 (implants): 1250 / 36 = ~ 35 minutes

Gained time is 7 minutes (2.94% decrease).


L4 > L5 (no implants): 1.053.725 / 30 = ~35.123 minutes (23.4 days)
L4 > L5 (implants): 1.053.725 / 36 = ~29.270 minutes (20.3 days)

Gained time is 5853 minutes (16.6% decrease).


So, yes. On all levels you get the same increase in bonus (+4 to the attributes in this case).
However, because the training times for L1 compared to L5 are SO much shorter, it hardly pays off.

The slight boost you get from the implants on something that trains in such a short time is hardly noticeable. But on the L5 train, which can take weeks, the boosts they give you each hour (A set of +4's gives 6 SP / minute boost = 360 SP/hour extra) it is noticeable.

Jpoll i appreciate your math, but its lacking the appropriate application. Once you finish those 42/35 min training amarr cruiser, what are you going to do with you character? Never train again? No, you are going to continue to train. So do the math throwing in more trainings that also total 35.123 min. You'll notice that with implants, 35,123 minutes of lvl 1 trainings will also be reduced to 29,270 min too, even though they are all level 1 skills. So you will get the exact same benefit over those ~3 weeks.

Yes.

But the point was that implants do more training A level 5 skill vs A level 1 skill, not about similar length training times.

See this is what I'm saying. If you have a month worth of LVL 1's queued up or a month lvl 5, the time reduction will be the same. So they are just as beneficial for new players as they are for vets. (assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't)

Now let's calculate

L1 (no implants): 1250 / 30 = ~42 minutes
L1 (implants): 1250 / 36 = ~ 35 minutes

Gained time is 7 minutes (2.94% decrease).

Oh my Jamyl... I cannot believe this is over 4 pages long.

OP: Its rather simple as has been put forward. Your basis that logically, SP/Hour is the same is correct.
Your assumption its beneficial in the beginning to use implants at level V only work if you are attempting to have a clone that never dies, and will be nearly useless for the several months it will take for you to catch up to the other players who skipped the implants.

By the time you DO catch up to the players who didn't do +5 implants, they are already richer than you, more resourceful, and more combat trained. I am not talking about SP here, I am talking about pilots having been in combat and have tactical knowledge in the field that could fit basic meta fit frigates, destroyers, and cruisers and effectively kill.

So yes, if you are shelfing to toon or station spinning for a year? Go ahead, enjoy the station spinning. In the meantime don't bother coming to lowsec or nullsec as no one will want you.

Any player can join a game and almost immediately get into some basic frigate pvp. Training all the possible skills that would benefit you in said frigate to level one, then all to level two, then three and so on, is the best way to give yourself the most %bonuses to the most relevant skills, in the shortest amount of time.

EVE is very forgiving to those who dont specialize until they find their real niche. A pilot that can get 4% or 4x(level bonus) for having a slew of level 4 skills, is far better then the handful of skills at level 5 but the player is easily typecast by hostiles who almost always have ships nearby to counter your predictable setup.

The people trying to explain it to you are giving you sound advice. You need to step back from 2700/2700 argument and think about what actually makes sense. Benefit now and benefit everyone, or benefit yourself 6 months down the road with a wallet barely above where you started unless you bought your way into EVE.

Posts like this make me think I'm missing something in that I don't see mention in the op about +5's or catching up to older players specifically, but rather that the idea of forgoing implants because the benefits can only be felt to their greatest degree when training later level 5's, which is entirely false and BAD advice.