So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Actually, they're right.

When you start training skills with high multipliers, you'll see more difference when having implants - a set of +4's will shave a week or so off your skill rather than few hours.

if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

But the vet is not wrong, nor are you. what they are saying is that 10% or whatever you shave off a skill you really won;t see much of a difference at lvl 1- 3 you will save maybe a few min on lvl 1, maybe 10 on lvl 2, maybe an hour on lvl 3, and maybe 1-2 hours on lvl 4. But when you hit lvl 5, and you have say a skill that is going to take 50 days, yes there are several like that Dread to 5 comes to mind it will save you 5-10 days. So you see a much bigger bang for your buck in the advanced skills dept then you get in the not so advanced skills. At least thats my take.

My point is also for you. Do you think people just train these level 1 skills save the few minutes then not train any more skills? Those minutes saved over 50 days of level 1 skills will add up to be the exact same amount saved for that Dread LVL V train.

No of course not. People train skills and move on to new ones obviously.

I think in your first year, if you train skills for +5 implants, you'll save only 14 days by the end of the year, but have had a huge amount of time sucked up early in training for implants.

My point is simply implants have the exact same benefit on short training skills as they do on skills that a long time to train.

[
Percentage wise yes. Absolute time wise, no.

Percentage wise yes. Absolute time wise, no.

Percentage wise yes. Absolute time wise, no.

How can they possibly be different?

Absolute-time wise too. If you spend a month training short skills to lvl IV, the number days you save will be the same as if you spent a month training long skills to V.

Not if you read the OP.

The question was about the claim that implants are useful when you want to train a skill to level 5 and not for lower levels.

To train a x1 multiplier to level 1 takes only a few minutes.

To train that same skill from level 4 to 5 takes a couple of days.

The absolute time saving is different to train it from 0 - 1 is different than from 4 - 5.

You will have to train more level 1 skills for it to take the same total training as the one train from 4-5. But once you train those lvl 1 skills and compare it to the level 5 train, you will save the exact same % and the exact same amount of absolute time.

No I agree with that, but that is besides the point. I am not advocating that you need +5 implants.

My point is simply implants have the exact same benefit on short training skills as they do on skills that a long time to train.

Multiple people have already posted that can't grasp the concept. Comments like "saving those few minutes isn't a big deal" is exactly the fallacy I wanted to point out. Those few minutes, over a long period will add up to the same amount of savings as you knock off of a long train.

Of course, but instead of having 1 skill at 5, you'll have more at level 3 or 4 and gain more flexibility as a new player.

However, if you factor in the time required to train for the implants you want, that is a cost to the training time you could have had.

Either way is fine. It's a personal choice. Do whatever you want and ignore the people you were referring to in the OP if that's what you feel is the best course of action for your character.

But it's not a fallacy. It's just a different perspective and a different consideration of the same issue.

The question was about the claim that implants are useful when you want to train a skill to level 5 and not for lower levels.

To train a x1 multiplier to level 1 takes only a few minutes.
To train that same skill from level 4 to 5 takes a couple of days.
The absolute time saving is different to train it from 0 - 1 is different than from 4 - 5.

[quote=Scipio Artelius]

2700 SP/h going towards low-rank, low-level skills gives you the same training benefit as 2700 SP/h going towards high-range, high-level skills.

Yes all true, but aside from new players keen to get shiney ships, does anyone really care what SP you have and how quickly it builds up ?

That sad face is for you. There is no room for perspective, and there is no room for opinion on the matter. It is simply math. There is right, and there is wrong. It's just a concept I guess that's out of reach.

That won't change the fact that for a new player there is a difference because more skills = more flexibility and if you train implants and skills to level 5 that will equal fewer skills relevant to what you want to do.

That is the OP's point. It is not a matter of perspective or opinion GÇö it's simple maths. The claim that the implants somehow help more if you're going for higher levels is fallacious.

GǪand when he trains those skills, the implants will help him just as much as if he were training for higher levels.

That is the OP's point. It is not a matter of perspective or opinion GÇö it's simple maths. The claim that the implants somehow help more if you're going for higher levels is fallacious.

New players don't need to be training many skills to level 5; and I think that's where this whole thing starts.

It's a difference of perspective on what is important for a new player. Skills at level 5 or more skills.

But that's a completely separate topic that has nothing to do with what the OP is pointing to.

He's pointing to the fact that he keeps hearing the claim that implants don't help as much when training lower skill levels as when going for the higher ones.

Of course they do not "help more". They work the same for all skill levels and all players. Simplemath.

However it is still the case that:
- new players are better off remapping first and worry about implants second
- the time and ISK spent skilling for and obtaining implants may initially be better spent elsewhere
- new players are highly likely to lose implants
- a lot of early training is misdirected (training mining when eventually doing pure PvP for example) so the early training is not even that useful later

No, that's not what he wrote in the original post. He wrote:

"implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V."

This is very true.

the flip side of it is, they don't make as big a difference before you start training to level 5.

Implants make the same difference no matter what level you're training at.

It should be noted that these lists contain a frightful mix of all kinds of skills, so the use of shortcuts such as implants and remaps can't really be applied optimally.

In percentage terms yes. In absolute terms no.

Just the same as I said before.

Implants do not provide the same absolute time benefit in going from 0 - 1 as they do to go from 4 - 5.

Before you are training to level 5, they have less value and the time taken to train cybernetics is potentially better spent elsewhere.

There is even a new player skill plan that somewhere says:


I totally agree with that, as I have throughout this thread. Later on, they can be applied optimally.

We clearly have different interpretations of the same statement which is fine, but going round and round the same round about is pointless.

In percentage terms yes. In absolute terms no.

Implants do not provide the same absolute time benefit in going from 0 - 1 as they do to go from 4 - 5.

Before you are training to level 5, they have less value and the time taken to train cybernetics is potentially better spent elsewhere.

There is even a new player skill plan that somewhere says:

You are quite simply wrong on this one and seem to be unable to admit it.

This is simply a case of having a different perspective on whether a new player should be training skills to level 5 at all.

That has been my consistent interpretation of the underlying message that was referenced in the OP. Vet players advising new players that they don't need to worry about implants until they start training skills to level 5.

GǪbut that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the benefits implants provide when training different levels of skill.

It's exactly what I'm discussing

We are not discussing the benefits of training skills to different levels. The OP specifically includes " when you start training skills to LVL V".

It's exactly what I'm discussing and you can think it's bulk fine. I don't think it's bulk.
We are not discussing the benefits of training skills to different levels. The OP specifically includes " when you start training skills to LVL V".

It a different perspective on the same sentence. In the original quote, you've placed emphasis on the first half of the sentence, where I've focussed on the second half included above.

He was discussing how new players are told a lie because they are told Implants are useless until you are training lvl 5 skills. Nothing to do on if they should be training lvl 5 skills.

I agree with that statement to the extent that new players don't have a need to train skills to level 5

the time spent to train cybernetics is time not being spent elsewhere to train skills that will provide more benefit to a new player.

Total time spend training - bigger advantage for 5's same for all skills
Percentage of time spend training - same for all skills.

Ha, if you are training lvl 5 without +5 implants, you have definitely too much time.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

(assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't)

You are a classic example of a noob that doesn't listen.
We haven't been playing this game for years and years just to know nothing.

Bonus is the same in percentage, but the gain in days and hours is much more for lvl 5 then lvl 1 and that is what people wanted to say to him.

Bonus is the same in percentage, but the gain in days and hours is much more for lvl 5 then lvl 1 and that is what people wanted to say to him.

Bonus is the same in percentage, but the gain in days and hours is much more for lvl 5 then lvl 1 and that is what people wanted to say to him.

The gain in training time is the exact same. It simply doesn't matter if you are training skills to level 1 or to level 5, implants will always save you the same time.

What the "same time" do you mean?

But 1 day is far from 2 days, using different implants is not the same time anytime.

What it says. There is no difference between training a month of lvl1-3 skills or a month of lvl5 skills - implants will have saved the same time in both cases.

You can complete trenning faster with +5 implants, is that the same time for finishing later with +3 implants?

Also, how long do you train lvl 5 skills, and how long do you train lvl 1 skill?

When +5 implants give you the difference in time total/finishing faster from +1? When you have to train lvl 5 skill.

It doesn't matter since people rarely train only one skill to 1 and then stop training entirely.

You can complete trenning faster with +5 implants, is that the same time for finishing later with +3 implants? Also, how long do you train lvl 5 skills, and how long do you train lvl 1 skill? When +5 implants give you the greater difference in time total/finishing faster from +1?

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Ha, if you are training lvl 5 without +5 implants, you have definitely too much time.

Greater attributes, thats why we have thois implants, are always good to have, but even better to have them at the late game, when you have run out of lvl I-IV skills.

Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.

That is why implants are more useful for players that are training skills to V and less useful for newbies who are Destroyer I-IV, Small Hybrid I-IV, Afterburner I-IV, Cap junk I-V etc. attributes don't match.

Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.

60/30 SP per hour per bonus point

implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V

So now you have to get to five lvl V skills one after another and you know you don't want to wait longer than you must. What will you use? What we are talking here about?

It takes too long to explain the rationale - particularly in rookie chat which moves so fast - so people say things like "Don't worry about implants early on, focus on a decent spread of core skills". It's not bad advice, it's not uninformed, it's just shorthand. Granted some people probably repeat it unaware the SP acquisition rate is the same overall, so what? OP sounds like one of those who whips out a calculator and screams about SP efficiency in reply.

Again, difference between different-bonus implants is not and never was in question.

implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V

My point is also for you. Do you think people just train these level 1 skills save the few minutes then not train any more skills? Those minutes saved over 50 days of level 1 skills will add up to be the exact same amount saved for that Dread LVL V train.

Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.

That is why implants are more useful for players that are training skills to V and less useful for newbies who are Destroyer I-IV, Small Hybrid I-IV, Afterburner I-IV, Cap junk I-V etc. attributes don't match.

And all of that is fair enough, but there's a distinct difference between the laid-back attitude of GÇ£don't worry about itGÇ¥ and the utterly false implication that the effect somehow changes as you start to train longer skills.

Best compromise:

Get enough faction for a jump clone. Make one clone your "learning clone" and another your "PVP clone". Keep your learning clone in highsec and don't screw around with it.


When it's time for level 5 with a high multiplier skill get into your learning clone and go work on your faction standings.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

I'm sure there are some who think the effect changes but I suspect it's really another form of shorthand, ie "You'll see the benefit of implants when you start to train level 5s" actually meaning, you'll notice it more. It's rare to see anyone considering long term training plans at the start, it takes that early time to understand the training system and appreciate the effect of remaps/implants. Rookies repeat advice they've seen to each other if it's perceived as accepted wisdom, mainly to be helpful, so it's not entirely their fault if they misunderstand.

False no matter your native attributes your implants give you a flat increase in SP/minute.

Actually, they're right.

When you start training skills with high multipliers, you'll see more difference when having implants - a set of +4's will shave a week or so off your skill rather than few hours. Things like Battleship 5, JDC 5 and all those lovely "need to have" of a vet.

That said, learning implants at the beginning of the game are redundant and prevent you from enjoying the game. Throw that money on a cheap T1 frig and go have fun in pvp rather than worry "but my +3's!"

I hope you're right, but the sheer amount of confusion and misinformation I've seen about the skill system over the years make me far more cynical towards what the more plausible explanation isGǪ

Different implants give different atributes so you can get more SP, atributes are the key, implants and remaps are there to boost your atributes and in turn the SP gained https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Attribute

After you plug it in, you are doing more SP per minute, and you can get those 768 000 SP faster at lvl V. Flat bonus, but it costs you less time for lvl V with higher atributes than with lower, atributes coresponding to this skill I have to add. So, when you have to make more SP per minute and the amount of SP is huge for that lvl V skill, you would want to plug in +5.

After you plug it in, you are doing more SP per minute, and you can get those 768 000 SP faster at lvl V. Flat bonus, but it costs you less time for lvl V with higher atributes than with lower, atributes coresponding to this skill I have to add

You are very very confused. Implants are not skills are not attributes, and the differences between different-bonused implants were still never in question.

So no. It's still a flat increase no matter what you're training and no matter what level it is.

So the OP manages to keep you sane, then, I take it.

what drives me nuts is when new guy know it alls come into Eve and think they know it all, make a statement about advice they were given, and are wrong.

and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong?

Where did i said that Implants are skills are attributes?

something is wrong?

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Yes, you are wrong. The time saved will always be the same, unless you stop training altogether.

None of it is germane to what the thread us actually about.

Same as what? As huge time savings compared to +1 implant? Yea right.

So we are not talking about the implants making difference at lvl v skill training?

See this is what I'm saying. If you have a month worth of LVL 1's queued up or a month lvl 5, the time reduction will be the same. So they are just as beneficial for new players as they are for vets. (assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't)

10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.

10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Hey, that is what everyone here tries to say.

[
You know what drives me nuts? Players who ask for advice, are given poor, incomplete, or incorrect answers by the playerbase, and then complain about the playerbase, rather than complaining about CCP's incredibly awful new player experience and lack of useful information and tutorials. Place the blame where it's warranted, not on the people who took time to help you, regardless of the quality of that hlep. Ungrateful wretch.

He knows a hell of a lot more than those giving blatantly false advice, thats's for sure, so not listening to them is really a good thing.

You are very very confused. Implants are not skills are not attributes, and the differences between different-bonused implants were still never in question.

So no. It's still a flat increase no matter what you're training and no matter what level it is.

So the OP manages to keep you sane, then, I take it.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Use implants, don't use implants, remap, don't remap, do whatever you want. Its your money paying the sub, how efficiently you use your subbed time to train is up to you.


I have some very effective combat toons that have never had a learning implant implanted, simply because I knew I was going into situations constantly where I was going to lose the pod, and didn't want to keep buying implants. Compared to other toons which have spent their whole time with +4s and +5, the non implanted toons are a full year of SP BEHIND the implanted toons, and they were made at the same time! Do I care? Nope. I freakin love playing on that toon, so even without optimal SP gain, its worth it to me. Only care about what is worth it to you.

Bittervets will constantly give you bad advice in Eve, that's part of the game. The trick is to figure out what advice is really helpful.

Also I don't see any reason to blame CCP. The game is what is. The correct info is published out there. Maybe I should blame them for not having a useful vet training tutorial?

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Its a percentage decrease. Level V skills take days to train. Level I skills take under an hour most of the time. Prove to me that chopping off a few minutes of a train is equal to chopping of a few days.

This is the quote that made me realize that the problem is YOU. If the correct information is published, why are you asking people questions and then complaining? I know the answer, but the mods will delete my post if I actually type it.

My point is also for you. Do you think people just train these level 1 skills save the few minutes then not train any more skills? Those minutes saved over 50 days of level 1 skills will add up to be the exact same amount saved for that Dread LVL V train.

Its a percentage decrease. Level V skills take days to train. Level I skills take under an hour most of the time. Prove to me that chopping off a few minutes of a train is equal to chopping of a few days.

[
They're talking about per level of the skill. Obviously you would not plug in +5's for a level 1 skill to make it train faster but you might for a level 5. Unless you're pure PvE you won't have +5's in 24/7.

This thread is specifically for you. Please read the thread. There are many good examples of how percentages equally apply regardless of the duration of each individual skill. At the end of the month it is all equal.

This truly is middle school level math, yet it seems like 50% can't grasp. Hence my post in the first place.

The answers were specifically for you too! When you've finished smuggung about how amazing you are, how much you know, your ability to to count etc please PLEASE elaborate upon the notion that maximising your SP ph beats maximimising essential core skills that will enhance your enjoyment as a new player.

We didn't lie to you, it was just really difficult to explain it properly in one sentence, and if you follow our advice you only lose a handful of SP vs the ability to NOT DIE LIKE A FOOL IN A STARTER MISSION. We only lied to you to make things easier in the first few weeks ingame - and THIS is what we get. You are a shiney example of those who can count, make logical arguments, warble on endlessly about how clever you are - and STILL completely miss the point. What system are you in?

Actually my post is the exact opposite of what you have said. Plugging in +5 implants to train level 1 skills is just as useful as plugging them in for level 5 skills. This thread has lots of the math to prove it.

No since plugging in +5s for a level one skill would be impractical and it's practicality which is going over your head. I have low-grade implants in for a total cost of 250 mill. To plug in a set of +5s to train a level one skill would require me to pause training, jump clone or destroy my PvP set, plug the +5s in, then not PvP or risk losing billion or more in implants.

On the other hand if I was training the last level of gallante Titan 5 plugging in +5s would be worthwhile even if PvPing because the time saved is substantial.

Edit:

Before you say yeah but if Titan 5 takes 80 days and you save 20 days having them plugged in for 80 day of lower level skills would still save you 20 days (which is true) the difference is with a long skill like Titan 5 you gain zero for the 60 day period, while if you were training for 60 days lots of lower levels skills you might gain +5 cap + 5 speed +5 agility +5 damage etc which means you're not just sitting there for 60 days gaining nothing.

In that case most people don't mind if a skill takes an extra 20 minutes or an extra day because the trade off of not losing multi billions in implants is much more acceptable. Its not just pure skill point training that is a factor, its risk vs reward, denying people uber killmails and being able to more freely engage in risky pvp.

The issue there seems more of a balance between risk and training, not a difference in the balance of individual skills. As someone who plans training in as close to full years as possible (for remap purposes), the benefit of +5's is constantly being presented regardless of the length of any individual skill on the plan. This means it doesn't matter whether I'm training Titan V or Frig I, risking a +5 is risking a +5. I can either play it safe and train faster or take more risks but chose to train slower, but it's very rare that any individual skill has any bearing on that decision.

[
Yeah if you're going for max training then it doesn't matter. But in general, given the difficulties of EVE, its often true that +5's are better only used to quickly get through a long training level and then taken out for lesser implants.

Risk/reward could be a very interesting idea to debate about how and when to use implants. But as stated before, my only message was that implants offer the exact same benefit to skilling up for short and long train skills.

Personally I don't use level 5 because of the risk/reward/time to train for lvl 5. But that's a another matter.

Also why would you take out your +5's for lesser implants?

Yeah if you're going for max training then it doesn't matter. But in general, given the difficulties of EVE, its often true that +5's are better only used to quickly get through a long training level and then taken out for lesser implants.

They're not saying implants work better the higher the skill your training.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

Technically you are right.
Practically, they are.

Example:

Amarr Cruiser (Perception + Willpower).

Per and Will are both at 20.

To train it to L1 = 1.250 SP
To train from 4 to 5 = 1.053.725 SP

SP gain per minute = primairy attribute + (secondary attribute / 2)

So with NO implant: 30 SP / minute

With +4 implants: 36 SP / minute

---

Now let's calculate

L1 (no implants): 1250 / 30 = ~42 minutes
L1 (implants): 1250 / 36 = ~ 35 minutes

Gained time is 7 minutes (2.94% decrease).


L4 > L5 (no implants): 1.053.725 / 30 = ~35.123 minutes (23.4 days)
L4 > L5 (implants): 1.053.725 / 36 = ~29.270 minutes (20.3 days)

Gained time is 5853 minutes (16.6% decrease).


So, yes. On all levels you get the same increase in bonus (+4 to the attributes in this case).
However, because the training times for L1 compared to L5 are SO much shorter, it hardly pays off.

The slight boost you get from the implants on something that trains in such a short time is hardly noticeable. But on the L5 train, which can take weeks, the boosts they give you each hour (A set of +4's gives 6 SP / minute boost = 360 SP/hour extra) it is noticeable.

Jpoll i appreciate your math, but its lacking the appropriate application. Once you finish those 42/35 min training amarr cruiser, what are you going to do with you character? Never train again? No, you are going to continue to train. So do the math throwing in more trainings that also total 35.123 min. You'll notice that with implants, 35,123 minutes of lvl 1 trainings will also be reduced to 29,270 min too, even though they are all level 1 skills. So you will get the exact same benefit over those ~3 weeks.

Yes.

But the point was that implants do more training A level 5 skill vs A level 1 skill, not about similar length training times.

See this is what I'm saying. If you have a month worth of LVL 1's queued up or a month lvl 5, the time reduction will be the same. So they are just as beneficial for new players as they are for vets. (assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't)

Now let's calculate

L1 (no implants): 1250 / 30 = ~42 minutes
L1 (implants): 1250 / 36 = ~ 35 minutes

Gained time is 7 minutes (2.94% decrease).

Oh my Jamyl... I cannot believe this is over 4 pages long.

OP: Its rather simple as has been put forward. Your basis that logically, SP/Hour is the same is correct.
Your assumption its beneficial in the beginning to use implants at level V only work if you are attempting to have a clone that never dies, and will be nearly useless for the several months it will take for you to catch up to the other players who skipped the implants.

By the time you DO catch up to the players who didn't do +5 implants, they are already richer than you, more resourceful, and more combat trained. I am not talking about SP here, I am talking about pilots having been in combat and have tactical knowledge in the field that could fit basic meta fit frigates, destroyers, and cruisers and effectively kill.

So yes, if you are shelfing to toon or station spinning for a year? Go ahead, enjoy the station spinning. In the meantime don't bother coming to lowsec or nullsec as no one will want you.

Any player can join a game and almost immediately get into some basic frigate pvp. Training all the possible skills that would benefit you in said frigate to level one, then all to level two, then three and so on, is the best way to give yourself the most %bonuses to the most relevant skills, in the shortest amount of time.

EVE is very forgiving to those who dont specialize until they find their real niche. A pilot that can get 4% or 4x(level bonus) for having a slew of level 4 skills, is far better then the handful of skills at level 5 but the player is easily typecast by hostiles who almost always have ships nearby to counter your predictable setup.

The people trying to explain it to you are giving you sound advice. You need to step back from 2700/2700 argument and think about what actually makes sense. Benefit now and benefit everyone, or benefit yourself 6 months down the road with a wallet barely above where you started unless you bought your way into EVE.

Posts like this make me think I'm missing something in that I don't see mention in the op about +5's or catching up to older players specifically, but rather that the idea of forgoing implants because the benefits can only be felt to their greatest degree when training later level 5's, which is entirely false and BAD advice.

Now let's calculate

L1 (no implants): 1250 / 30 = ~42 minutes
L1 (implants): 1250 / 36 = ~ 35 minutes

Gained time is 7 minutes (2.94% decrease).


L4 > L5 (no implants): 1.053.725 / 30 = ~35.123 minutes (23.4 days)
L4 > L5 (implants): 1.053.725 / 36 = ~29.270 minutes (20.3 days)

Gained time is 5853 minutes (16.6% decrease).

Fractions 101:

35minutes / (42minutes / 100) =~ 83.3% (16.6% less)
29270minutes / (35123minutes / 100) =~ 83.3% (16.6% less)

Conclusion: 2.94% of all people should never attempt any form of math in an argument.

However many minutes you spend in your learning clone is the only variable here (disregarding attributes). 1 day in a learning clone gives the same gain no matter what is in your skillqueue.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

people that have been doing something for a long time always think that they thus know a lot about it.
sometimes they are correct but more often they have been doing something badly for a long time.
as an example : economists think that sustainable growth is possible in defiance of the laws of thermodynamics and in ignorance of the exponential function.

You can give me all the sad faces you like.

That won't change the fact that for a new player there is a difference because more skills = more flexibility and if you train implants and skills to level 5 that will equal fewer skills relevant to what you want to do.

I am even willing to put my money where my fingers type on this.

I will happily roll a new character and plex it to train it over a 7 day period and if you do the same and train your implants and then skills through to level 5, we'll see which character has more options at the end of that week.

So if you are happy to accept that, we can work on the details and run the test.

shaving days off is always doing to be a bigger benefit than minutes.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

You are not wrong, the bonus is the same. However, the total time saved over the duration of training a level V skill is way higher than the time saved when training a level I skill. Seconds versus hours/days man...

They have the same relative impact. However, instead of 10% improving a 1-hour train time by 6 minutes, when you train a 30-day skill, the difference is 3 days.

For individual skills, yes. But if you look at a month of training lvl1-3 skills and at a month of training lvl5 skills you will see that the amount of time saved by implants is the same in both cases.

Because it's a percentage difference of the same total time.
We aren't talking about individual skill levels. We are talking about days. Because you don't put just 1 lvl 1 skill into your skill queue. You fill it with them no matter what level.

So an implant saves you the same time per day no matter what level skill you are training.

Additionally, since EVE has diminishing returns on skills meaning V is proportionately less important than I for skills (Except to open up new skills), Training skills to I faster is actually more beneficial.

Meh, first world problems.

The EvE phallacy that drives ME nuts is:
http://www.eve-online-fan.co.uk/wp-content/themes/dust514/images/eve-online-ships/images/eveships/armageddon.jpg

Where are the people who are concerned about the real issues in this thread?!

If your phallacy looks like that, you should see a Doctor, stat.

I already did, he referred me to a Dictor, its a serious phallacy.

It is extremely difficult to fit a large number of level 1 skills that all have the same attribute into the queue. Yes, buying level 5 implants on a brand new character and then throwing on a cerebral accelerator right after cybernetics is trained, along with an immediate remap is the fastest way of training.

If I am talking to a new player I will never recommend this approach. A new player would have to drop $40 on a game that they just started playing to afford the implants + accelerator. On top of that, the remap is only replaceable with time, and the implants can be lost to a simple mistake like auto-piloting through Uedama at the wrong time. Also, the remap will increase training time for other skills, locking the player out of a well rounded initial training plan.

You might notice that the price issue can be alleviated by only buying two plus 5 implants. This would lock the player even more into a specific training plan though. Its better to buy some +1 or +3 implants as they can afford them and not risk an 800m pod. I question the need of any player to get the training time from +5's, especially considering that the higher your attribute is, the lower the percentage training time reduction when adding a point to it.

Consequently the above is also the reason why you have no real gain in buying better then +3's until you reach a certain threshold in skill ranks that you train but by all means buy those +5's if you think that learning that rank 3 skill to V for 2h 15min earlier will make a dent in your skill plan.

So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

don't mean to be harsh, but it might be a bit early to start telling people what they do, and don't know in the game.

Please tell me, that by page 9, the OP wrapped his head around this.

Not even close. I can't believe people are still fighting me and the others on this point. It's a non-opinion based topic. It's black and white. Yet they just can't grasp it...

Not even close. I can't believe people are still fighting me and the others on this point. It's a non-opinion based topic. It's black and white. Yet they just can't grasp it...