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Game balance issue...should be fixed.

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Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.04.27 17:59:00 - [1] Last night I encountered what i feel is a pretty terrible game imbalance. I am fairly new to pvp in EvE was in a low sec system and a cloaked inty warped to the belt i was ratting in, and then preceeded to warp scamble me and hold me there for a few minutes till his friends came to kill me... Nothing I could do nothing at all, he was out of my range and i was configured for ultra short range fighting and he was FASTER than me. ( i was in a enyo with a AB and a webber but he stayed just out of webbing range and was faster than I ) I understand the need for warp scrambling and that is fine, the problem i see is that there should be some type of "downside" to allow for the scambled player to have an out, or maybe a pulse on scrambling with a 90% sucess rate so that sometimes the scramble may fail. Essentially there is ZERO defense to a person who configs there inty just to scramble coupled with cloacking except for logging out the moment you see someone pop up in local which imho is simply stopping playing and uhm terrible game design. I don;t need to hear any arguements about well that is all he can do is tackle he can't kill with that set up, i understand that the issue is the fact he can warp to my system cloaked stay cloaked until it is too late and then keep my scrambled forever till a friend shows up to kill me. This is like being perma stunned in a classic fantasy based rpg which has long been known to be a terrible game design. I would guess it is design issues like this that helps prevent eve from picking up alot of steam. It makes for fairly terrible PVP where you are literally helpless. I can deal with being scrambled and killed, but being scrambled and NEVER being to get loose by a ship that is 100% invisible until it is too late is terrible terrible gameplay. Being held indefintely waiting to be killed it stupid ( he could have went AFK with keep at range set and held me there until the server reset lol.) Some counter needs to be placed in the game to give the player scrambled a fighting chance, if your gonna allow for 100% invis ships to roll around with WCS fitted. IMHO the easiest and most senseful one would be for activitating WCS placing a speed penalty on the ship scrambling. Then players could have a chance to battle thier way out. Again scrambling is fine being able to scramble a player and hold him there for a few minutes till your friends arrive? terrible. I hate the idea the only option for me is to log out when a single player shows up in local, I wanna play fight my way through things but you can't do jack when someone built to cloak and scramble happens upon you , when your not configued to counter that which is the other downside of eve your screwed if your not the hunter because the fittings are really designed for 1 aspect of gameplay not all, so if i wanna be prductive i essentially have made my self a victim because set up are not condusive to doing both say NPCing and defending yourself. If I am wrong and there was somethign i could do i am happy to learn show me the way :)
Kylania	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:01:00 - [2] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Essentially there is ZERO defense to a person who configs there inty just to scramble coupled with cloacking except for logging out the moment you see someone pop up in local which imho is simply stopping playing and uhm terrible game design. If I am wrong and there was somethign i could do i am happy to learn show me the way :) Warp Core Stablizer I. Balance restored! -- Lil Miner
Sanctus Maleficus	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:02:00 - [3] Im a bit confused. First of all, I think you're using WCS as Warp Core Scrambler, which usually stands for Warp Core Stabilizer. And secondly, Warp Core Stabilizer is the balancing factor to warp scrambling. You need to run two to defeat the shorter range scramblers, as they ahve two points.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:02:00 - [4] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/04/2006 18:03:54 This is why cloaks cost up to 40 million... --- pwned
Acheron Cyc	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:05:00 - [5] And if you fit WCS, be ready to hear some smacktalk in local since some pirates(if not most)like to ***** when they victim escapes and don't get an easy kill. ------------------------------------------ "To do something right it must be done twice. The first time instructs the second." Simon Bolivar.
Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:09:00 - [6] if you have a "ultra close range" fitting you need something to get you in range ultra fast (mwd) if hes still faster than you maneuver into roids/stations/gates use a long range setup ?
Callistus	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:11:00 - [7] I'm confused, you say that "a cloaked inty warped to the belt" but inties cannot warp while cloaked. Was he sat in the belt cloaked, or did he just warp in and scramble you? Also if he was cloaked there is a sensor recalibration time penalty of 20 seconds so he couldn't possibly have decloaked and scrambled you if you were paying attention. -------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainfrane]
Micia	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:14:00 - [8] You could also have used EW modules to jam his lock. Can't scramble you, if he can't target you. Or maybe NOSsing the Inty. Can't run his scramblers if he has no capacitor left. Or the above-mentioned Warp-Core Stabilisers. Or paying attention to Local chat. Sure, it sucks to lose a ship... but there's always some kind of workaround/defense/precaution to lower exposure to risks. There is no 100% anything. _______ I brake for Veldspar
Kurren	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Kylania Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Essentially there is ZERO defense to a person who configs there inty just to scramble coupled with cloacking except for logging out the moment you see someone pop up in local which imho is simply stopping playing and uhm terrible game design. If I am wrong and there was somethign i could do i am happy to learn show me the way :) Warp Core Stablizer I. Balance restored! Wait a minute... then what would counter-balance that?! THIS WHOLE SYSTEM IS FUBAR!!! Oh... no... no it isn't... --- --- --- --- SobaKai.com
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.04.27 18:55:00 - [10] theres no imbalance here. any solid ship fitting will have conditions that its great at, and its achilies heel. you can try to minimize this, or lay out your setup such that if your in a weak spot, you can get away, but you may or may not be able to do so without weakening your main purpose... but you have to determine wether its worth the tradeoff or not. you could have fit a WCS. (stab) or an ECM thing. or ran away when they got there. you said it was an interceptor.... they can't warp while cloaked. I HAVE an interceptor with a cloak on it. you have to uncloak to warp. watch your overview, if someone comes on, watch... do yo usee them warp away? if not, then be ready to fight and feel that you can stand your ground... or GTFO. another option would be to NOT fit it for ultra-short range, without having a long range option somehow. like my Ishkur, my drones can go out to almost 50km, and thats my primary weapon ANYWAY. so having my ships guns be blasters instead of rails... doesn't change my vulnerablility as much as for a ship with no secondary option. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.04.28 00:07:00 - [11] Hrmm here is the problem if i equip WCS then i can't kill the rats i am there to kill? that is the problem in balance i am alluding too. I am locked into my set up to kill npc rats not sit in a belt waiting for a person to try to scramble me so i can get away. I was in an enyo... not like the 1 light drone is gonna do much lol. I was defenseless period. I supposed i could see if i can rat with a full rack of stabs loaded but i doubt i can rat well set up like that..... Maybe he used an interdictor or force recon ship, i am fairly certain he warped in cloaked because i was watching my overview diligently. I understand there is ALOT of things i could theoretically have equipped the problem is i cant have THEM ALL EQUIPPED.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.28 00:17:00 - [12] There are only two types of ship which can warp cloaked. One is the covert ops. If a CO ship killed your AF, I'm afraid I really have VERY little sympathy. They have little combat capacity. The other is the recon ship. Many Recons are designed to be anti-frigate, and if they caught you alone in a belt, with a very close range setup on your ship...well...bad luck, it happens. Keep an eye on local and the scanner, and keep a safespot handy. Check your lossmail..what ship does it say killed you? "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.04.28 00:42:00 - [13] Thats why when you go to lowsec you have to be prepared one way or the other. If you are planning on ratting then you need to choose, are you going to FLEE or FIGHT if you are engaged by another player? If you plan to flee, you must equip WCS (often more than one) and give up what is in the low slots. If you can't do that, you need to equip a pvp setup. The problem here is you never know what type of ship will try to take you on. Is that a balance issue? No. The fact of the matter is that in EVE you never really know what you are going to run into (in Pvp that is). I think thats the beauty of PvP, trying to balance your fittings so that you have the best chance to survive. You also don't have to balance, you can guess what you will run into and fully equip yourself against that type of ship, but then you may run into a problem. See the beauty there? You just never know... I will just *mine* my own business *ore* you can test me. Mining Division Head X Battlefield2 Helicopter Pilot --The joystic would own in EVE
Talori'i	Posted - 2006.04.28 00:57:00 - [14] Another thing I don't think anyone mentioned, is why didn't you have any friends to show up and help you out? 4 8 15 16 23 42
Skian Mhor	Posted - 2006.04.28 02:34:00 - [15] you had your options: be watching overview like a hawk for the uncloaked interceptor to come in before putting its cloak up. Warp Core Stabiliser (s) to get away sorry mate. you did'nt fit up right to defend yourself in the environment that you went into. that's not game imbalance, that's carelessness. you were outside webber range "for a few minutes". in a belt. Think laterally next time, use the environment to your advantage. you could've flown directly through the 'roids, causing that nice fast little interceptor to bouce off them long enough to either push out of range, ot break the scramble, or even for yourself to double back, snag him and try to take him out. you could've Good game design offers you the potential to avoid the pitfall, and those options were squandered I'm afraid. sorry. immunity from one element much force compromise on another element. and that's what having to fit the WCSs would have done. that is balance. I feel for the loss, but it was'nta design flaw that caused it, mate.
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.04.28 02:52:00 - [16] Edited by: Telemicus Thrace on 28/04/2006 02:53:32 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Last night I encountered what i feel is a pretty terrible game imbalance. I am fairly new to pvp in EvE was in a low sec system and a cloaked inty warped to the belt i was ratting in, and then preceeded to warp scamble me and hold me there for a few minutes till his friends came to kill me... ....If I am wrong and there was somethign i could do i am happy to learn show me the way :) No imbalance at all, they found the Achilles heel in your setup. A short range frig will have problems with tacklers. You need to be able to hit at 10km away. You fly at the tackler and I guarantee when you get to 10km he will web you to hold you at range. If you can't hit him at that range you are stuffed since you can't run away either since his fast inty can keep up with you and keep you in scram range. Personally for solo stuff I avoid these ultra close range configs specifically to avoid this nasty scenario where inteceptor holds you while a cruiser comes in and pounds you from well out of your range. I'm not a fan of WCS on combat ships as most squads have a 4 point tackler at least so I'd have to give up 4-5 low slots. If you are flying solo I would refit for a touch more range so if he is in scram range he is within your kill zone. Also look at a Nodferatu for a high slot (kill his cap so he can't run the scrams) or a good ECM jammer (break his target lock shutting off the scram) for a mid. With solid EW skills a top of the line multi spectral jammer is quite effective against frigates and cruisers. No imbalance, he just had an excellent tackling ship and that was one thing you were simply not set-up to deal with. >> RECRUITING <<
Wizerud	Posted - 2006.04.28 02:53:00 - [17] The problem isn't a balance issue at all. The problem is taking it for granted that you can fly defenceless into a low security system and get away with it.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:08:00 - [18] Thanks thrace your post actually made sense, as opposed to the tards who posted stuff like going into unsec space "defenseless" lol. I had thought about using longer range weapons, the set up i used was really something i read about being very effective vs rat BS's. No offense but if I load up my lows with stabs, I CANT DO ANYTHING IN LOW SEC SPACE! I was ratting duh! Please think abit before you post. To the guy who asked about my friends.... ya we all play with friends in the next system ready to run to our defense lol. Which all comes back to my "imbalance" posting. IT is almost impossible to fit a ship to say rat well in low sec WHILE at the same time covering all the possible you might be ganked scenarios meaning your always toast, if your alone and you get scouted out by a covert op ship set up to warp while cloaked. Sure i can always log the moment someone shows up in local.... but that is lame and poor game design as my only options. Too many modules are "perma" effects in eve, like i said most other mmo games with pvp figured out along time ago that being able to perma stun, mez or snare a player is very poor game design. Eve could do alot to learn from that. IE webbers should have a chance to fail, scramblers should have a chance to fail etc... I shouldnt have to built for every possible scenario other ( which isnt possible in eve anyways ). I understand many of you have grown comfortable being able to kill other people with ZERO risk and like it but some of use prefer a more confrontational and skill of play gamestyle, would be nice if eve added some of those elements to thier gameplay instead of literally set up 1 alwasy beats set up 2 IE outcome of fight decided before we even fight.... Maybe a skill to allow players to switch mods while in space that ways you can pack up stuff to prepare.
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Thanks thrace your post actually made sense, as opposed to the tards who posted stuff like going into unsec space "defenseless" lol. I had thought about using longer range weapons, the set up i used was really something i read about being very effective vs rat BS's. No offense but if I load up my lows with stabs, I CANT DO ANYTHING IN LOW SEC SPACE! I was ratting duh! Please think abit before you post. To the guy who asked about my friends.... ya we all play with friends in the next system ready to run to our defense lol. Which all comes back to my "imbalance" posting. IT is almost impossible to fit a ship to say rat well in low sec WHILE at the same time covering all the possible you might be ganked scenarios meaning your always toast, if your alone and you get scouted out by a covert op ship set up to warp while cloaked. Sure i can always log the moment someone shows up in local.... but that is lame and poor game design as my only options. Too many modules are "perma" effects in eve, like i said most other mmo games with pvp figured out along time ago that being able to perma stun, mez or snare a player is very poor game design. Eve could do alot to learn from that. IE webbers should have a chance to fail, scramblers should have a chance to fail etc... I shouldnt have to built for every possible scenario other ( which isnt possible in eve anyways ). I understand many of you have grown comfortable being able to kill other people with ZERO risk and like it but some of use prefer a more confrontational and skill of play gamestyle, would be nice if eve added some of those elements to thier gameplay instead of literally set up 1 alwasy beats set up 2 IE outcome of fight decided before we even fight.... Maybe a skill to allow players to switch mods while in space that ways you can pack up stuff to prepare. That's really how EVE PvP works... I hear ya, but that's the way the DEV's want it... Setup vs Setup, that's really all it amounts to... There are no dice rolls... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:24:00 - [20] You claim its impossible to get a decent solo npcing setup that can defend itself against other players, I disagree. The only difference between a capable pvping setup and a capable npcing setup is: a warp disruptor and/or different hardeners. If you don't care about killing the aggressor, and simply getting away with your ship intact you don't even need the warp disruptor. Introducing a chance based system is utterly lame and demented because you have people who should by all given rights be dead (ie. you) getting away on pure luck and nothing more. For somebody who enjoys the "confrontational" kind of pvp, this doesn't sound like it would comfort you. Or am I wrong? If you haven't noticed by now, EVE is not exactly a perfect space sim where advanced maneuvers, tactics and throttling are allowed. Half of the battle is won at the setup screen, and I would not prefer it any other way. The second you give players a way to adapt their setup on the fly, just because things are going wrong, is the same moment you dilute pvp to a point where your biggest concern is whether or not the lag will affect your twitch-fitting. You're also claiming that you stood no chance in that fight, simply because you had a different setup. I'd also disagree, there are quite a few tactics you could have done even if the enemy is faster and staying out of web range. The least of all, you should have paid attention to who was in your local before they ever got a chance to scan you down. Lets face it, you're in a frigate, the quickest ships around and most difficult to lock onto. If you were even semi-aware of the dangers you could of stayed aligned and warped instantly. PVP has its inbalances, but this was not one of them. You were careless, and got spanked, the only thing you can do now is write it off as an occupational hazzard of hunting in low sec. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:27:00 - [21] Dont go to low sec empire space? Big lesson, that you just learned. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:29:00 - [22] Quote: Lets face it, you're in a frigate, the quickest ships around and most difficult to lock onto. If you were even semi-aware of the dangers you could of stayed aligned and warped instantly. Aligned while fighting NPC rats in a frigate with a close range setup? How does that work exacly? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:33:00 - [23] How exactly does an inty warp cloaked again ? Or was it a covert ops frig instead ? Which is quite alot slower and oftenly low on cap (20km scramblers use generous cap). They are also extremely flimsy, something even a single drone might point out to the pilot well enough to let you get away.
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Marcus Aurelius How exactly does an inty warp cloaked again ? Or was it a covert ops frig instead ? Which is quite alot slower and oftenly low on cap (20km scramblers use generous cap). They are also extremely flimsy, something even a single drone might point out to the pilot well enough to let you get away. I don't get that part of the story either... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
nahtoh	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Marcus Aurelius How exactly does an inty warp cloaked again ? Or was it a covert ops frig instead ? Which is quite alot slower and oftenly low on cap (20km scramblers use generous cap). They are also extremely flimsy, something even a single drone might point out to the pilot well enough to let you get away. I don't get that part of the story either... The part i don't get is a blaster enyo fitting being unable to kill spawns in lowsec empire space if he has a single stab fitted? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Andros vonBek	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:46:00 - [26] Edited by: Andros vonBek on 28/04/2006 18:48:21 Edited by: Andros vonBek on 28/04/2006 18:47:42 I don't think anyone mentioned these yet... Not necessarily at the OP but in general for anyone in a similar situation. * Make safe spots in any low or no sec system you plan on spending any amount of time in. Details on how to make these can be found elsewhere. If someone potentially hostile shows up in system, you don't have to log, instead warp to a SS and wait, and assess the situation. They could just be passing through, but if they're not then you're safe and can either wait them out, or use your scanner to check the gates and judge whether to risk an escape or not. * Don't stay right at the belt's 15km warp-in spot if possible. Anyone can warp on top of you and instantly be in range to lock/scramble/web/nos/jam you, or otherwise commit heinous acts of gankage upon your person. If possible, get off the warp in spot ASAP. * Keeping an eye on local goes without saying, but more than likely you have other channels you want to follow too - Corp chat, any private convos, whatever, and watching a totally empty local channel gets dull after a while, so you switch to another convo for a moment, and then it happens that a pie-rat enters while you aren't looking, scans the belts, and giggles with glee as you show up on his scanner... Drag Local off the main channel stack and make a new stack, so you can watch local and still easily follow other convos. -edit- OMG THEY STOLE MY SIG!!! This shall not stand... Filesize too big. Mail [email protected] for info - Cathath
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2006.04.28 18:53:00 - [27] Erm man didnt you ever wonder why low sec and 0.0 have better rats and ore (more isk/hour) than empire? You are asking for a change so that you can basically rat in low sec without any risks while still making money. Thats what empire is for. And warp scrambling only prevents you from running you can still fight back... imo switch to a ishkur and rat in that you'll be able to kill inties without trouble - or fit longer range guns on your enyo. - Gob (my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p)
Tatiana JInMei	Posted - 2006.04.28 19:07:00 - [28] Edited by: Tatiana JInMei on 28/04/2006 19:07:31 It is true that the scrambler and webber are over powered compared to let say the target disruptors and jammers which all have a chances of failing. But then an inty would have been crushed by long range ammo. next time try to carry a stack of super long range ammo with your short range. The switch may be enough for you to surprise him and make him do a mistake. But yeah inty are pretty hard to hit at max velocity. Oh btw nevermind the useless don't go out there post. But places like Syndicate haren't the best spots either.
KaraThrace	Posted - 2006.04.28 19:42:00 - [29] If you want to rat in a -0.4 system then its your own fault for not equipting WCS.
Logan Fyreite	Posted - 2006.04.28 19:44:00 - [30] There is a chance to get away from inties carrying 20km scramblers. They run out of cap. That is the balance in that system. If he was outside your range and you were in a asteroid belt, just cruise through the belt, he will hace to switch to manual clicking to keep his ship out of trouble and that gives you the chance to turn back on him or run away. I assume however that if it was an inty you would have been able to tank him for long enough to get back to the asteroid field, however if it was a force recon ship or something like that, well your outclassed. You may have died before you had a chance to get into the asteroid field, but if it was indeed and inty then you should have been able to get into the field and use it to your advantage. Your safest bet, keep an eye on local, if you see someone you don't know, especially in 0.0 no matter how friendly they are go to a safe spot, or a planet and make a safe spot or something, don't just keep ratting. Though this reminds me much of carebears being more interested in the XXXXXXXX isk bounty they are about to get and are suddenly surpised in belts by ships that have neen in system for at least 2 minutes. Ishkur > Enyo BTW.

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