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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
85
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Posted - 2014.03.20 17:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
I like the changes. There are a couple of spots which seem rough, but in general this is well thought out.
Ore and Ice Refining: Advertised percent | amount of current ore/ice received | percent of max obtainable (Player Null = 100%) NPC Station (with a highly skilled individual): 72.4% | 100% | 83.3% POS High Sec: 75.3% | 104% | 86.7% POS Low, Null, and Wormholes: 78.1% | 108% | 89.9% Player Null Station (fully upgraded): 86.9% | 120% | 100%
The lack of any perfect refines is going to tweak some people, not that I am worried. The mass of ways to refine at different percentages is going to result in confusion and encourage development of specialized refiners. The confusion is the result of a varying landscape, which is great. Finding the most profitable place to refine will involve figuring out transportation costs. Player Owned Null Sec stations can be used to provide greater refining profits if the transportation costs are acceptable. The High Sec poses provide a small margin gain, but will need great volume to pay for their fuel. Wormholes will still be disadvantaged, but in comparison with Null Sec this time, and perhaps not too badly.
Some rough spots: 1) Scrapmetal processing requires refining skills, but the processing does not get a bonus from them. It might be best to remove the skill prerequisites. 2) Refining ore sounds correct. Reprocessing modules sounds correct. I don't see any gain from combining the names. Remove the scrapmetal prerequisites and no one should worry about whether they are learning refining or reprocessing. The station service can be named Refining and Reprocessing (R&R for short). The POS modules can make it clear that they do not deal with modules and ships by being named Refining Array. The name change lets us reprocess everything, except sometimes you cannot reprocess some things at reprocessing arrays because they are modules. 3) Rocqual's compression method needs to be explained better (instant, industrial mode?, Heavy Water?) 4) Alchemy as others have noted and CCP has acknowledge. 5) Perhaps a reconsideration of meta module mineral levels. This effects mission runners, and a moderate increase in these might put them closer to basic module mineral levels without exceeding it or introducing more minerals. Note this may be an intended nerf, but that could be acknowledged.
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Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
85
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Posted - 2014.03.20 17:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.
The point of merging those two terms however is to make it clear it is the same process and station facility / service ( you can't reprocess both ores and materials at the same time at the moment, and both "reprocess" and "refining" are appearing under the Star Map under the "service" tab).
So you cannot reprocess a module at a reprocessing array, but you can at a reprocessing station facility? Also I learn reprocessing so that I can refine ore which is called reprocessing because this is EVE. I learn Reprocessing Efficiency but it does not help reprocessing modules because it is really only for ores, and ices which you would refine. This change just trades one confusion for another. The station service can be Refining and Reprocessing (R&R for short). The reason why you had a hard time finding different terms is because English identifies them as separate processes and combining them will cause confusion. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2014.03.20 18:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).
Compression is going to be fast and simple right? Right click and compress. The time involved is all about transporting the minerals to a POS or Rocqual. Instead of an industrial corporation running many mineral compression jobs (425mm ...) you have the mining corporation using their pos to run the compression module. Someone sits there and compresses the corporation's earnings. Miners in the corp are paid for their ore at fair rates, but the corporation makes money on the compression and transport. I don't see the POS requirement limiting your compression rates since you are removing a more complicated process of industrial building.
Of course there are some additional potential side effects: high sec mining corporations taking over the compression business. These organizations can buy minerals from their miners like they already do and then compress them for a slightly added value. So this will support more high sec mining corporations, but that is not bad right? If you really must buy uncompressed ore and compress it yourself you will have to setup a POS but that is your choice in vertically integrating and eliminates the industrial mineral compressors anyway so you have a better time.
One oddity I have seen is that Rocquals will be able to compress lots of minerals all at once and without the costs of a POS. Currently Rocquals are confined to a POS for safety, but the POS could be doing something else as well. This means that Rocquals have a slight cost advantage over the POS conversion method. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2014.03.20 19:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:2. Although I am loving the changes to null sec outposts, it is absolutely silly that a maximum skilled refiner in a 50% station can get 72.4%, whereas a fresh newb with no skills at all can achieve 78.1% in a POS. Two things I would change:
- Bring low sec and null sec stations up to the current levels which the POS modules can achieve respectively.
- Add the skill requirement for POS modules.
Also I'd like to point out this is a massive buff to WH residents, perhaps unnecessarily seeing as CCP state that they do not want people living in WHs. Now WH residents will be able to cut themselves off almost completely.
Your maxed skilled person is in a high sec station. Your fresh newb has setup a lowsec pos. I think a small bonus is acceptable.
Adding skill requirements for the POS module sounds good. I would be even more thrilled if the modules actually used your skills to determine the refined amounts. CCP has indicated in their design that they would like to use skills, but that the effort to do that might not be reasonable at the present time. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2014.03.20 19:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
If the items used in mineral compression are no longer needed for that then perhaps the volumes could be increased. That might encourage more local production in all areas. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2014.03.20 19:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:So, I might have missed something. But basically now there is more of a loss in the production/reprocessing cycle, which leads too: 1. Loot/Salvage taking a huge hit of about 45-50% in worth. 2. Minerals getting worth more, so more people go afk and bot mining?
1) Loot/Salvage will take a hit of 45% to their mineral prices. Some items are worth more than their minerals.
2) There will be more minerals recovered from ore. All of the changes might lead to similar, higher or lower prices. Are you implying less afk and bot mining if ore prices drop?
There may be more of an emphasis on ore mining, which might result in more afk and bot mining. The locations of mining might change so that Null Sec empires have more, and their miners might afk or bot according to the acceptance of the sov holders and the enforcement by CCP. Enforcement against botting looks like a separate although linked issue. Perhaps CCP should keep an eye on botting in sov holder areas while they move forward on these good changes. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2014.03.20 20:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant
Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition.
A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium.
An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:Kadl wrote:Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant
Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition. A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium. An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity. You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no)
The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%.
Lets go through the steps:
1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores. 2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals. 3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals. 4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals. * The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:What I am implying it, that this is a serious nerve to wreck loot - mostly for new players who miss the skills to blitz. Blitzing is already more efficient than looting/salvaging. So once you have the skills, you won't touch wrecks anyways. The people who are hit are players who rely on salvage/looting. Miners will profit since their efficiency is compensated and the demand will less be filled by loot/salvage. So in the end, the afk-miner profits. This is not a high/low/null thing, but a general change. I don't get what positive this part of the change does. It basically rewards afk-gaming.
In my first post I suggested the possibility of increasing the minerals in the meta items to more closely approximate the tier 1 items. The refining change would allow CCP to make that change. I have not seen anything which implies that CCP is specifically aiming at reducing the minerals from salvage loot. The reduction in minerals may be a happy result according to some. The percentage of reduction appears open to change at this point.
On the other hand you are not looking at any of the benefits of this change. This change will make refining more than "go to a 50% station with these skills and reputation". The change adds a variety of choices all of which have some benefits. This will allow a number of specialized player options adding to a players options in EVE. Since there is specialization choices, a player can choose to do something specific for a larger group or profit as an individual doing one step. I have suggested before that this provides another profitable role for high sec mining corporations, allowing more social interaction in that realm. Few people have the skills needed for the best refining, which puts currently new players in a more equal position vis-a-vis older players.
I am a bit saddened by the loss of salvaging incomes, but given the numerous other opportunities for even a new character I think this is reasonable. The currently mutable state of this change allows CCP to choose the full effect of the impact of the salvaging nerf by messing with meta item mineral composition. They could also do the same thing when they look at the extra minerals they have added to many ship production lines. I certainly do not see any reason to take a depressed, the world is ending, attitude. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
88
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Nullsec is more second world, where you can pay sweatshop wages, mangle the environment in the name of efficiency, and other scorched earth policies. Someone has never been to nullsec. Also, LOL SECOND WORLD, GSF is paying 200% peacetime srp. Real second world.
Agony held sov.
There are great profits to be made in forcing your slaves/non-unionized labor to work harder for their capsular overlords. |
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Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
89
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Querns wrote:It looks like one thing that is going to have to stop here is this fascination with "perfect" refines. There is no longer the ability to refine perfectly. What remains is a system where you can train game skills to increase yield, and when that hits its cap, use social skills or PvP skills to get access to facilities to further increase your yield. No longer are capsuleers entitled to 100% refine yield in this brave new era.
Correct no one is entitled to 100% refines, but some people can get max refine if they are friendly. |
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