Bingo.
That is likely coming soon enough.
First, we lost meta 0 loot.
Then we lost drone alloys.
Now, we lose half the value of the loot left over.
Guess what is next?

And your one of those I live in null sec so everyone else go.......... so are you not worth my time. No I understand its not free and I will always go for what's most profitable and knowing me I will buy minerals with mineral profits but it seem just a little like screwing some to unscrew others why not try to fix the issue. Tbh I feel null sec should because of the risks have a buff eg like 120% efficiency however I don't think that a player with perfect standings with an npc corp (and perfect refining skills) should have less then 99% efficiency.

It would be nice to see you answer something without spin once in a while. Clearly, nosec is totally unrewarding and no one wants to go there. Only by stripping hisec of everything will nosec be rewarding.

You do realize it's not a zero sum game, right?

You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.

Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed.

So that means people can launch a PoS in highsec using standing boosters, and by that get refinery without any skilltime spent at all.

Guess we'll see that rise of hundreds of refinery corps, only there to hold a highsec PoS to refine in.

Skills should affect the PoS refinery just like anywhere else, making PoS refineries still useful, even though STILL requiring the training time to do so.

No offense but this is the most confusing blog I've ever read.

Anyway, so this is another case of some people badly abusing a game mechanic and CCP nerfing an entire industry screwing everyone because of few bad apples. Not happy with this at all.

Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise

Why should refining in nullsec be better than anywhere else?

Nullsec already has better: Ratting, Rocks, Anomalies, Missions, PI, etc, etc. I'm not real sure how anyone can say that risk out there isn't rewarded.

you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks

Since my thread was locked, and directed here, here it is.

As a Rorqual Pilot I have to say this dev blog pissed me the right fk off!
Seriously? WTF CCP?!?
A pos module that not only can be used ANYWHERE(that means highsec bucko!), but it also has 20 bloody fking MILLION cargo space, AND is instant?
guys....
Guys...
GUYS!!!
You are giving the power of EIGHTY RORQUALS into a SINGLE POS MODULE, and at a cost probably FAR FAR cheaper than a Rorqual to boot.

Seriously... either nerf this mod down to reality or give the Rorqual a buff to make them more worthwhile to use than the pos module, because as it stands, this pos module just nuked the Rorqual out of a job.

ok, got that out of my system.
Here is what I think about the rest of the blog though.
[img]http://upload.linkswarm.com/i/sunny77/boner0Yw.gif[/img]
^Probably NSFW

So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.

More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it.

CCP has always been a goonz bi tch they have always bent over backwards for them

Exactly this.

Obviously you have a problem with math and I am not going to educate you.

Someone please get ballic1 a third grade math primer.

The situation may be even more interesting than that. If my observations over the last 5+ years of playing EVE is any indication, then CCP have a huge problem on their hands, given their current direction of constant HiSec nerfs, and the company seems utterly unaware of this.

From my talks with many long term players currently having an activity focus in HiSec, it would appear that a staggering number of the HiSec population are - for lack of a better term - 'refugees' from NullSec (both 0.0 and WHs).

A large percentage of players seem to sooner or later burn out on the NullSec playstyle, after which they either quit or refocus their activities. Once you understand the problem, then it isn't even hard to understand why this happens.

Just have a look at any one of kil2's nice PvP videos on YouTube. I think most of them admirably illustrates the core issue. In his videos you see the current employee of CCP sitting alone in his attick room while wearing a headset, and totally focusing his attention of the screen for hours on end.

To many players this is socially unacceptable in the real world, where people have families and friends to care for. Sure, doing it for a bit once in a while is fine, we all have our personal interests and hobbies. Yet this is how you have to behave, whenever you engage in 'serious' PvP related activities (or any activity, where PvP may jump in on you) in EVE.

Another illustration of the problem could be found in an early edition of a guide to potential WH CEOs. In this guide the aspiring WH corp CEO was adviced that their preferred recruits were young men with no social life, who still lived in their parent's basement, and who remained logged into EVE 23/7...

Mature players, who have an active social life outside the game, *cannot* maintain this isolationist behaviour indefinitely. So eventually they have to adjust. They switch to a casual play style, move to HiSec for their ISK making activities, and maintain a PvP presense in LowSec, perhaps as an ebil piwate.

Whenever they can dedicate themselves 100% to the game, they jump on their PvP alt and enjoy some funtime PvP. And when they cannot, they idle in HiSec at varying levels of activity, earning a bit of ISK on the side in the process.

These players are not risk adverse, nor do they at all mind PvP. They just frequently choose a playing style, where they cannot - or will not - focus 100% of their attention on the game client while playing. This HiSec PvE is what they do for some of their time in the game.

This is why mining and mission running (in perma-tanked ships) remains popular, despite the repeated hits with the nerfbat. People know they don't stand to loose an expensive ship if the phone rings, or they casually talk to their SO in real life while playing.

The large NullSec alliances knows they constantly bleed members due to burnout, which is why we have these constant PR battles asking for more HiSec nerfs, combined with appropriate NullSec buffs. They need to make life in HiSec unbearable to long time players, so their members doesn't have a reason to jump back to HiSec.

This is also why we see all these concentrated PR campaigns vilifying most HiSec PvE activities: Hulkageddon, miniluv and more. Lest they forget, the 'HiSec puppies' needs to be constantly reminded just how bad a player they are for focusing some of their time in HiSec.

Unfortunately the casual nature of the average empire citizen's gameplay means only the organized NullSec alliances has a strong political voice via the CSM and forum spammers. Which means the only thing CCP hear is what the NullSec alliances wants them to hear.

NERFBAT!
NERFBAT!
NERFBAT!

Ya because you can totally limit gate travel in HS. You can have a mining op defense fleet aggress neutrals in HS. Come on man, this whole Null isn't as safe is entirely bogus.

Bubble the gate get a +1 and align out, by the time "enemy" is out of the gate bubble you are aligned, get a Dscan hit warp to safe. Wait for guy to get bored repeat. Or just put a defensive gate camp up and go about your business, because you can freely engage anything that comes into system. Null has much more safety measures available to it than HS, you are living in a dream world if you don't think its true. Hell you can freely shoot back without a care in the world that is a huge safety advantage.

Especially null that is 20 or so systems deep into "Blue Space" You think the guys up in Tenal, or Deklein fear of getting ganked? If they did they wouldn't be out ratting and plexing in Carriers and Supers. Give your head a shake parrot.

Ultimately your complaints come down to Sov mechanics which CCP will not change because doing so will only remove the only publicity this game gets 4K man Tidi brawls.

funnily enough, i lost at least three tanked macks to ganks exactly this way...

There is no reason at all to make these changes. It only serves one purpose. Pull people out of highsec and lowsec and put them into nullsec. That is it.

There is no economic benefit to any of this, there is no gameplay benefit to any of this, and they are making a ship that takes a long while to get into effectively redundant outside of a clone boat.

Then why nerf scrap metal processing which is a big income line for lowsec?

'post with your main!'

What is risky about being a nullbear in the CFC?

Your rewards are already greater than your risk, or all of the carebears in nullsec would be in hisec. No one except cap builders would be renting.

If this change comes through, you will nerf income with which i support my pvp activities and increase the amount of isk that i require to actually pvp.

So effectively you reduced the fun/money ratio of my subscription. Again. Bad move, CCP, bad move.

Guess after this change I'll just use up the scraps of isk i usually keep around, trash the now worthless rest of my resources and biomass myself after.

The irony of being lazy.

Some folks don't do it for the isk/hr. Some folks do it to build themselves ships they buy with LP. Many folks do actually. Typically you would get enough ore to produce the ship you want by doing the missions to get the LP you need to buy the BPO. With this change you would need to do 33% more missions in order to achieve the same effect.

As a self reliant player this is an unacceptable change.

i'm contemplating about if i should be so obnoxious as to claim that these mining ops just wern't organized properly. hello there, true scotsman...

Its because the Goons are the only ones benefiting from this change

Thats great if I cared about the "best isk". But I don't. If I did, I wouldn't running missions in HS and LS. I would be in 0.0 farming plexes.

Why not put bubbles on the gates and have a gate camp fleet. Not taking precautions means you asked for it to happen to you.

No one should die in 0.0 just like no one should die in HS. All of you are bitchmade if you think losing a ship is an example of risk taking. Losing a ship means you ****** up and suck.

this is not universally true. there are a few missions where given proper dps and noctis skills, you can make much more total ISK/hour than even blitzing any other hisec lvl4 (low and null missioning is obviously biased towards blitzing).

All these things are common with LS which is the only space actually getting hit with the nerf bat.

An RX-804 refining implant (even now) costs 300m+ isk and sells in low volumes. I can get alot of pvp out of that amount of isk. Additionally that's more than half of my funds right now and i don't expect it to get any cheaper after this announcement.

show me the spread sheet. you have a mission spread sheet, don't you?

CCP MAKES BIG ANNOUNCEMENT FOR THE SUMMER, CONTAINING:

• No new ships
• No new play styles
• No new content
• No new reason to play the game

BUT THE INNOVATION DOESN'T STOP THERE!

Oh no. We get to take salvaging and reprocessing--a boring and thankless necessity--and make it 40% more thankless.

Not your brightest move, CCP!

lvl3 blitzing is irrelevant for lvl4 blitzing. 100m/hr is still well under what you can get from burning and salvaging the blockade or gone berserk. which was my point from the beginning.

fortunately, you can finish it up to three times per hour.

edit: my personal best time for the blockade is 18:54 undock to dock. i dimly remember hearing of sub 18m times. if you need an hour to complete it, you are doing it terribly wrong.

1. this does nothing to disprove my point, even if you run one blockade, its isk per HOUR is still well over 100m
2. you can get back to back blockades naturally or by helping out a little (faction standings)
3. you do not get an average 100m/hour from blitzing just any mission either, albeit you also don't have to take care of selling the salvage.

3. you seem to think that blitzing every mission is always better than burning and salvaging it, which is not the case, as i stated some pages ago.

indeed it is, unless you include 'extravagant' equipment. your typical anom ratter will not fly anything unreasonably expensive, limiting his isk/hour to slightly under what a dedicated lvl4 runner can make (in hisec). that is why i am entirely comfortable with the module reprocessing nerf (other than the plight of pro synergy, which i empathise with).

no, were i told you the truth about making 100m PER HOUR in the blockade.

You are only limited by what you are afraid to lose. My Battleship is just as vulnerable to a gank in HS or LS mission as you are in NS. You can pretend it isn't but we all know if you want to ganl something in HS you can gank it at reasonable cost. But lets keep pretending its about "risk"

You fly weaker ships and absorb less income because you choose to, not because mechanics force you to.

no need to, as you will not.

Then don't complain that anoms aren't making you as much isk as level 4's if you are unwilling to do what is needed.

believe me, i know all about the rewards and triggers. i also know that the triggers in the blockade are random to some degree and that assuming a LP exchange rate higher than 3k is ingenuous, especially with the amounts you will have to turn over. a realistic time would be around 10 minutes and a realistic ratio (after dealing with hauling tags, updating orders etc.) is somewhere around 2.4k, unless you are willing to let your isk rot for weeks.

Concord doesn't give me any safety, they dish out punishment for people who break the law. Are you unsure how the system works? They are as effective as having 20 dudes sitting in local with you. Maybe the issue you have is to much space and not enough people actually using it, except your 20 friends are allowed to shoot first.

i'm not sure which version of blockade you are running, but the one i run regularly has several of the same ship hull and one of them is the trigger. you seem to assume that you are the only one smart enough to run missions efficiently (including stocking up LP and using blockade runners) when in fact there are a lot of people who do it. listen and maybe you will also learn a thing or two.

4-5x Battleships (Centus Savage Lord/Overlord/Mutant Lord/Beast Lord) Trigger (Centus Beast Lord/Overlord)

now what?

yea, no. that was the possible combination of ships and triggers for ONE wave.

jeez, read yourself: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=Blockade4sa

i'm done arguing for today. please keep mario putzo in check. he seems to have some... unreasonable assumptions about ratting safety.

Heh an interceptor ganking a plexer/ratter or miner.

Just tank your Mack brah and put drones on him. No Corp fits in GSF for tanking mining ships I guess?

and awoxer warp in? You definitely need better friends if you fear for being awoxed.

Oh interceptor is out but now the T3 is in? hue hue hue. Come on guy, keep grasping.

You don't mine because you choose not to, not because you can't. You make less money plexing because you choose to not because you can't make more. There is no mechanics that put NS at a disadvantage pound for pound everything in NS is better isk wise, and more profitable market wise.

Choosing not to exploit that is based on your own unwillingness not because of lopsided mechanics. Perhaps if 90% of your systems weren't uninhabited you would see different results, but I am sure its hard when the vast majority of your alliance and coalition mates only log in/show up for timers and jabber pings.

Not a problem with the game, problem with the players.

Well maybe if coward coalition spent more time running mining opps and not forum CTA's then there wouldn't need to be a change.

None of which requires the changes presented by CCP to accomplish. Which is the whole point of this thread. CCP presented an Idea, and we pick it apart.

These changes do nothing constructive for the game and are actually deconstructive as a whole.

Nope with these changes, and forcing people out into Null/Low whatever security status of the system. It's always about PVP to CCP and making the PVP crowd happy the fact is without high-sec industry (which this change affects in a 72% way) as I will no longer invest a single second of my time into industry. Not one second of my time, if you want me to PVP fine, but I'm not mining for an alliance, if that is what is demanded, then I just plain quit EVE. I'm not going to be a drone and do as CCP wants/commands. I enjoy a relaxed and casual atmosphere to a game, there is nothing casual and relaxed about the "Null-Sec" life. And with one Alliance capable of destroying all others out in "Null-Sec" why should we play along CCP? You have manipulated industry in the past (T2 miners anyone). We caught onto it at a late stage. And I quit for a long time after that I've come back and not bitter about what you forced us into. at that time.

This game proves that when the "power" is in the hands of a few there is absolute and complete corruption.

I do not care to be a part of your social experiment if you are "forcing" people into the "alliance" game. I will not play it. Thanks for your consideration CCP.

If the 250% increase to mineral value didn't drag them from HS I doubt a 20% increase wil. But hey while we are pretending Im sure that the awoxing in deklein screams come mine with us!

Refine Rates

20% not even close the refine value before and after, the after value with perfect refine is 28% of what it was previously. That's an 72% nerf for high-sec mining.

Where are people getting this "20%" this "risk vs reward" is not even a factor in this large of a nerf. Look at the actual numbers.

Nice Nullsec lies.
Miners already got far higher profits in Null Sec after the last round of mineral changes. Which made sure no matter what ore prices did that Null Sec ores would be worth more than High Sec ores. Not that this was a bad thing.

But this latest change goes too far.
It's good that skill now matters.
It's good that POS arrays are now relevant.
But it is bad that Null Sec is best at everything. That leads to a theme park where high sec is just a starting zone, and to go anywhere you have to sign onto an overlord to get allowed into Null (Because that basically is the current setup in Null) Equal refining from stations & outposts would have been fine. 20% extra is not fine. It gives too much advantage to Null.

Agreed 1000000000000000%

I'm not signing up for an Alliance, it hasn't happened in my previous 10 years it's not happening now. Deal with it CCP!

baltec1 And for the others, I said I would no longer devote time to industry, I'll go pvp if I need/have to but this overall **** storm to High-Sec Industry is not going to be beneficial to the game. You are right I didn't see a "part where they said they were changing" I am going by what is currently posted. once they make a new devblog I'll change my thoughts but until then I will go by the current "official" information being the blog itself. I do not care what they say in a forum post. Update the blog with the actual numbers.

Because you ALREADY GET THE MOST REWARDS!
You can't use that argument on every single thing in the game in isolation.
Null gets better PI.
Null gets better Ore.
Null gets faster manufacturing lines. (Last I looked post outpost buff)
Null gets faster research lines. (Last I looked post outpost buff)
Null gets better Gas.
Null has infinite ore in a single system thanks to industrial anomalies.
Null does have higher yield thanks to Rorq boosts being better.

All of this is directly industry related.
You don't need better refine rates as well. If you need a boost to Null ore at all, which I'm not convinced, then it should be in the 5% & 10% varieties being more common, not in all ore giving 20% better yield when refined.

Note, I'm not against the changing of outposts base to 50%, or the change so that skills matter & that POS arrays are good for refining. I'm against the 'Null must be best at every single aspect of the game' argument which is being used to justify Null getting better refining when it gives too much advantage to Null Industrialists to be able to simply price high sec utterly out of the game.

Because I don't get the same reward. I don't get any of the things I listed above. So a Null player ALREADY HAS MORE REWARD!
You can't look at a single facet of reward and go 'that reward aspect must be higher' when there are a number of DIFFERENT rewards that apply. Overall the reward should be higher sure, but it should be higher in ways that don't break the sandbox game, and the 20% higher refine in Null has the potential to break the sandbox and make it theme park. And it shouldn't be 20% higher in every aspect, when those aspects multiply together to create a massive cumulative reward.

Some of the aspects can be the same, some can even be lower in Null. As long as the overall reward across an entire play area is higher. And Industry/Mining is already significantly better in Null. Refining was poor, but it's being over corrected now, not simply fixed to the same.

I see many nice improvements, such as compression process and reprocessing UI. But also I see some bad things:

- You are boosting mining while nerfing reprocess output from modules and ships (It's very famous CCP's way of solving problems: we should not fix something, we should break, so other broken stuff would not look like broken).
- You nerfing minmatar outpost, so it won't be so juicy as now. Have a question: how will you boost other features of minmatar outpost instead? Or, how will you nerf (make it similar to other) other outposts to make a balance?

Hahahaha. What ever you say. Simple math says you are wrong. But its more fun to watch you all whine about how eveil Carebears are breaking the material bank while Goonies can't cut a break.

272% more valuable to mine in NS, yet no one does. Weird thing is you can get Trit just as easily in NS as you can in HS. 2 ventures in Null make more money than 2 in HS.

Easier just to parrot the talking points of the greater goonion though I imagine.

Wow, so hard to say "look at the batch size" in a nice way isn't it?

But yeah, thnx, been up for 72 hours straight, numbers are not being friendly to me at the moment.

Stop the world!

I completely agree, however the nullbear narative coming out of Mittanigrad, and trotted out by the rest of the goontards and their underlings, will always contradict the facts.

If we take a simple risk ratio as being defined as ship loss/jump then low sec is approximately 3 x as riskier than null.

i think the changes are crap as i have trained to level 5 on all and then worked my ass off to get standings. this is going to screw a lot of us, don't over think it

Yeah will duh, hardly anyone can handle the risk of lowsec so they avoid it. Total ship deaths mean crap, unless you want to go as far as saying that more ship deaths in highsec makes it more dangerous then lowsec.

The posters are correct, if EVE had real risk vs reward, Lowsec rewards would be considerably higher then any other place.

You can't lock your enemies out of stations either. Lowsec and nullsec are different in several ways. Statistics show that lowsec is more dangerous.

Potential 20% more reward for miners but in reality more reward for outpost owners who will set taxes on refining. That is direct income buff for "masters" not to "peasants". Only those who already rich could use that "potential" (upgrades for outposts are not cheap). So it increase gap between rich and poor alliances.
That is not buff for miners or miners in null particularly, mining in null was always better than in lowsec or highsec (some of us remember when people used cruisers to fly to null and mine there).
Nothing wrong to let refine ore in null outpost as efficient as in npc station, but why it must be better? Outpost is empire technology.

In this thread you have a number of self-important Goons carrying out is intellectual ************, they think they are so so clever but most people reading their posts see them as so far up themselves its embarrassing. And they are so arrogant that they fail to see that. But of course they are full of themselves because they have got what they wanted, so triumphant posting on their part says a lot doesn't it.

You question hits the nail on the head, a lot of new players do what you are doing and also a lot of older players who do not want to operate within these 0.0 cartels, in one stupid ill thought out change which was applied to get rid of extra materials on BP'sCCP just shafted all those people, for me it doubles the amount of grinding I have to do to make a ship. I hope CCP will think about this a bit more because most of the group I am with are rather annoyed with this, but CCP only listen to the 0.0 controlled CSM and shrills like these self-proclaimed economic Goons.

The 0.0 cartels want to screw over hisec, however reasonable people like myself saw no reason why those 0.0 sov stations couldn't be upgraded to be as good as hisec, but saw no reason to nerf hisec, by cutting refining efficiency to make you grind more, with the changes to ore amounts its not as bad as it may first appear, but for those that reprocess modules for minerals it is catastrophic.

As you can see they are also hogging this thread and posting lots of pap in here to hide people coming up with issues like you,and insulting people that is again part of their strategy, again they are very good at it and CCP will fail to note your concerns due to their hogging of this thread with their pap.

So what are my options, I could cancel my paid for accounts and have as my leaving reason this change, wait a couple of days and then re-sub, at least it will get past the Goons blocking it here, there is no point in saying anything in Assembly Hall or speaking to the CSM as they ignore people like you and me.

Both of the people who responded to me did the typical deflect away from my issue, the first Baltec ignores the reprocessing of modules and correctly points out that there is little difference in refinery rates in 0.0 and hisec, however it is enough to give 0.0 manufacturers the advantage over hisec ones, which is crucial for their renting empire. This is why they are so full of themselves.

The second one, uses insults, without any understanding of the point I raised, I operate in NPC 0.0, mining is not an option, its impossible, so gun mining is really the only way, while earning ISK with bounties, but he is too stupid to work that out and throws an insult to make him feel all superior, a legend in his own lunchtime. I was talking about the excessive nerf to module reprocessing!


Earlier in this thread we had Baltec and Weasoler both allude to additional changes coming through, now I thought Myanna was subject to a NDA, but they are so sure of themselves that they make it evident that they know what else is coming in spite of their rep being subject to a NDA. But of course CCP will ignore this, because they have a working relationship, its not surprising that many people start calling the Goons out on this by saying that they have CCP in their pockets, when two people who are not CSM members know what is coming and can indicate that they know it without any fear of a reaction from CCP. When I called these Goons stupidly arrogant, one understands that sometimes being overly triumphant can have repercussions, but like many I have no expectations that CCP will even react to this.

So you guys either know what is coming and wanted to show your superiority or you are pretending you know tyo make you feel more important, by doing either says quite a lot about you.

So, other than the ever-present "GRRR Goons!" thing -- which is really getting tiresome -- what about the idea of buffing the mineral content of things that one can only obtain by salvaging? This could be meta 1-4 loot, or new and varied forms of metal scraps (or both).

I don't think this would (necessarily) take us all the way back to "gun mining", since I don't get the sense that gun mining is really a big deal at the moment. Just buff the mineral content of loot drops so that a max-skilled refiner can extract roughly what they are getting today from these items (perhaps a bit less).

As long as these items couldn't be player-manufactured, it would be pretty impossible to use them (at least at any large scale) for mineral compression.

That way, the mineral value of salvage could remain useful, and mineral compression would still be nerfed.

Personally, I like the idea of meta 1-4 items getting a slight uptick in their mineral content, but remaining mostly useful for their role as improved versions of meta 0 modules. The buff to mineral content could instead be rolled into new forms metal scraps. If it was done in a balanced way, this would retain the usefulness of salvaging without allowing huge amounts of compressed minerals into the game.

of course you are not going tax away 20%, but these changes let you get your tax (one more "alliance lvl income" as your grunts used to believe) and grunts will get the same or a bit more than in pos or highsec station.

and with better refine rates you automatically will get more profit from manufacturing ships for your grunts because you can more efficiently refine imported low grade ores from highsec and noone (refering to your renters and grunts) will try export high end ore to highsec and refine there.

Even wh residents will get more benefit just selling compresed ore to null outpost owner because you can offer better price than they can get reprocesing them by self at pos. Only limiting factor - jump freighter fuel costs but i bet some people already calculated possible profit from it (before official dev blog) and these percents was approved (noone from CSM complain about removing high rate mineral compresion with some modules).

where did i complain about rewarding greater risk taker? though risk / reward arguments may work on some folk who never lived outside highsec, but we both know that there is options to reduce risk to minimum value and if you got ganked - thats your own mistake.

then answer - who takes bigger risk:

a) pilot fly from lowsec (highsec) to null to mine some ore and take that ore back to lowsec (highsec) to refine
b) pilot lives in nullsec, has docking rights at outpost, intel channel, alliance/corporation members in surrounding and same systems

how about risk / reward?

do wh miners take less risk than null miners? why they cant get the same refine rates? maybe wh logistic a lot easier than in k-space?

why you and your alliance live in null if there is no reason (no reward) to live there?

why we have null sec renters if there is no reward?

Melting down scrap for metal is totally realistic, I cannot see any reason for this not to be possible, and in any case as module drops are so poor in anoms most don't bother, its belt ratting and level 4 missions that do this, something that a high and mighty Goon has no idea of because its so beneath his kingly gaze...

This is the problem. Everyone only thinks in this utterly limiting ISK/hour mentality and it is only going to get worse if more and more people are pushed into this. It's time to recognize that there are also a lot of people who enjoy the activities itself of belt ratting, enjoy mining, producing, hunting anomalies, DED complexes, data/relic sites, etc - not because of money, but because the activity is fun and (somewhat) enjoyable. There is certainly a lot of things to be improved to make then better, more enjoyable and challenging, emergent, varying - fun. Forcefully improving only the ISK/hour aspect in all these activities is limiting and focuses on the in my opinion wrong aspect of the mechanics.
But then again, there are also so many people who only have such a limited scope and view on enjoying the game and only see it as a grinding fest, just like any other game. This is way too mainstream in my opinion.

So you admit that those who live in null already have very rewarding system because don't mind of taking risk and can be very rich if they want.

Then why does nullsec (particularly player owned) need new buff? Will risk in null increase after summer?

"we are rich bla bla" response just show that you don't have any real arguments and everyone with brains clearly see this.

NPC 0.0, go out there and go ice mining, this would be good for a laugh, or perhaps you want to go and do level 4's when being camped by BLOP's hot droppers, I deal in operating in difficult areas, not fantasy.

That is your opinion, one that I don't share. And if it is terrible then it needs to be improved, and reasonable suggestions for improvements need to be submitted.

And there you are again with your ISK/hour mentality. There doesn't need to be a buff to income, you can get 15M+ ticks in belts as it is, with proper chaining. What all activities need are a buff in how interesting they are, how fun they are to do, how good you have to be at thinking around corners in some instances and how engaging they are. Long things short: A complete replacement of the current PVE system with new mechanics, new ways to do it, new content, new challenges. It of course requires a lot of coding, but judging by the lack of any information on this matter it's something that CCP doesn't seem to consider at all.

Here people we have real response why there are so many "nerf high buff null" talks. There are a lot mission agents in low, even lvl5, and pirate agents in npc null, but they do lvl4 in high sec (i mean grunts do this). You know that's embarrassing to realise that you prefer to play EVE as safe as possible for those who officially are proud pvpers.

These "high risk takers" thinks that if high sec income would be nerfed to ground, they would find courage to start using sov space not only for moon mining and leadership hopes that they will get high influx of players from high sec. More active players, more taxes, safer poses, less chance to loose timer.
One not blue person in local shut down almost all pve activities in null - that's reality. That's why grunts do lvl4 missions in high sec (lower rewards but steady income).
of course one null sec system can't support infinity ratters as high sec agent and they need to spread across "owned" systems but there is some risk, so they stick in system with outpost and if neutral or red comes to system they just go to do lvl4 in high.

Belt ratting in null better than most high sec lvl4 missions (do you chaining belts these days?) and with chance to get faction/officer spown if you not chaining. and there are anomalies.

If nullsec is such a land of milk and honey, with no risk because of reasons X, Y, and Z, and "virtually empty" to boot; why aren't you out here mining and ratting in these mythical belts of plenty?

and how the refining buffing in player null sec helps to mining? i agree that change to mods reprocess will reduce minerals influx to market and miners will have less competition but doubt it significantly increase they income. though it reduce income for people who bother to loot and i nowhere saw in dev blog how this will be compensated. i agree that "gun mining" must be not best option to obtain minerals but i am not convinced that null need buff in refining.

I live in 00 sec all the time, contrary to you people.

That is a myth; chaining works perfectly fine for me every time I rat the belts.



And again ISK/hour. What makes you think that everything every where in the game needs to give top ISK? Besides, 16M*3==48M/hour... Wow, 2M less than L3 Blitzing ... in space that you actually pay for with your sov bills you can make as much money as in high sec with just as much effort. But if you 00 dwellers make money in High sec, then why do we need to buff 00 sec at all? Where's the point in this? (to bring the discussion a back to the original point a bit)

This will not happen, because its just to easy to kill mining fleets, one of my friends in the CFC said that they do not mine in 0.0 as they lose too many ships, he feels that CCP need to have hidden belts like before, the interceptor buff has made it even worse. The changes detailed here do make 0.0 more attractive, but this issue is not going away, I am surprised you don't see it.

they always were valuable asset and mining in null was always better than high sec, main problem is with some groups mentality.

Because that's the only place you look, and you're not allowed to report blue bots in null?

I'm by no means not interested in not gaining ISK, but I don't seek to make the most possible ISK in all things I do, my way of playing this game is to enjoy it, not to make it more of a job and chore than it already is. I actually want to and do enjoy making ISK the way I do it, making it leisurely and with a lot of the different aspects the game offers.

So safety is the issue after all? You want to be (perfectly, I assume?) safe in an environment that is driven by player conflict? Do you realize you are contradicting all your previous Risk vs Reward talk with that? You can make tons of ISK with ratting, PI, mining, moon mining and exploration combined when compared to High sec, you already have all the tools and possibilities at your hand to make x times more ISK in 00 sec than in High sec if only you would use them. But what do you do? You concentrate on ratting, you do what everyone also does in High sec, you want to make more ISK with the exact same things that people in High sec does. How can you possibly expect more reward if you do exactly the same?

oh so CFC decided that they now want miners, i am sure that all who got ganked in result of interdictions would gladly join your ranks.

btw almost all mining bots is in highsec, because those who has access to null running ratting bots ;)

though we talking here not about bots, so why player owned outpost must have highest refine rates? why wh residents won't get the same refine rates? why we can't get the same refine rates in pos?

You make more money ratting (30M+ ticks every 20 minutes?), you make more money in exploration (data/relic sites and not to mention 7-10/10s), you make more money with PI (PI in High sec only makes serious money if you only produce, not mine), you obviously make more money with moon goo because there is no moon goo in high sec, you make more money mining already, because of high value roids, and after this even more... what more do you want? 40M ticks in your AFK-Ishtars? 100% success rate in 7-10/10s? Planets in 0.0 to -1.0 with full white resource fields everywhere? Don't you expect a little bit too much for your little, save blue empire in Deklein?

--



ALT A + ALT C, there's also this "Saved Draft" crap.

Still telling the young folks lies Baltec.

120M+ Easy in NS Anoms/Plexs. Unless you are risk averse and fly around in an Ishtar. Go use the right tool for the job, if you can't then you are not doing it right.

272% more Isk/m3 in NS compared to HS. If you can't you aren't doing it right.

NS is overall SAFER than HS. Provided you actually play with people who undock. If you disagree you aren't doing it right.

It has nothing to do with Risk/Reward. Over 3/4 of your systems are Empty (same applies to N3) No one mines. Yet you feel you are entitled to a handout. Pathetic and FYI. You can get locked out of station in LS, don't even get a fancy timer to form up for to prevent it from happening either.

nice logic.. where arguments? why won't your grunts use their stations if they get the same refine rate as they would get in low sec (highsec)? outpost gives a lot more comfort than pos and they usefull not only for refining so effort and cost to build outpost can't be the main reason here.
they won't use null station only in one situation - if they won't like refine tax.

with these changes sov owning alliances (not only CFC) will get upper hand in capital production driving out others from that market, hell they get upper hand in every item production what they will choose.

since when that became a lot of isk for "we so rich bla bla" folk? indestructible asset if you lose it you can reclaim it later

Then don't lose it.

No not really, but I know :effort:.

Again so what, don't let people take it, and if N3 didn't put all their eggs in one basket it wouldn't have hurt so much when that basket got knocked over.

Poor decisions by leadership and players is no basis for balancing changes. Its not the mechanics of the game that do either of those things you listed. That is player choices. Huge difference friend.

lol

how many timers there are if you want take over station and how many timers to take down the pos? can you get that destructed pos back after few days?
one guy undocked 40b raven some time ago in high sec. it ended really well - do we need reward him? you know, risk/reward

So basically, all of the people who wants to do something more interesting with the ores they mine will be shafted bigtime by this change.. Mine, sell, mine, sell... Don't think, don't dream, just mine, sell.. don't bother with production, don't bother with refining, just mine, sell, mine, sell... Gee.. way to make S&I more interesting... You go CCP...

It's the progression from mining to production I'm concerned about, this is a disincentive for miners to experiment with production as they will have a huge ammount of hoops to jump through to even begin being profitable.. But then again, time will tell how this will play out. I might be wrong, at least I hope so.

Having better refining yields in null sec than high sec destroys competition and forces serious industrialists to join null sec alliances in order to maintain their profit margin .
Also worst refining yields will hurt mission running income , will hurt salvaging corporations and will generate less tritanium etc tritanium --->ships will become more expensive .
I dont really know whats the ratio mining asteroids for tritanium vs refining loot for tritanium so i dont really know where the market will balance .

I don't like it. You just severly made my rorqual useless. Thanks for the "help"

A pos mod? Seriously?

I researched bluprints for monthes to compres in the rorqual, and now you make the ship worthless. Really?!

Any chance that we have a chance to refund the skills?

CCP is slowly killing EVE because it nerfs something in every expansion

Although I understand whats being done here, I understand the reasons behind it and i can mostly get behind them this development shows me two problems.

1) yet ANOTHER! way where null sec based power block can outearn the lesser guys. Which basically means anyone not in at least a few hundred man alliance. And don't come whining about the added risk of null-sec mining. If your in bleu area and know how to keep half an eye on directional not all that much risk....no more or less then plexing anyway.

CCP keeps stating that they want more people to move out of high and they keep developing things that make it harder. If you are an upstart and the established local can outgun you 5-1 as well as maintaining a model where they could kill you 1:1 (very badly played by them then) and still run you into the ground economically it is never gonna work.



2) It goes against anything even remote logical universe/lore wise.
Where does it make any logical mundane this-is-how-bussiness-works sense to have the
lawless, underpoliced, high risk, well-****-up-your-station- if-we-can area have a better
industrial complex then well policed, we haven't seen a real distubance in 50 years, your
expensive investments are mostly safe here, environment.
thats like expecting somalian/algerian/whatever-war-torn-no-peace-ever-for-5-years-solid-
ian country to have a better developed undustrial complex then say the Ruhr-area in
Germany.

I could figure out if was possible through high investment to make A (single) station /
system where you could reach the same level or even surpass in rare-ish cases - but not as a
general rule (plonk down any oldpos with any old refinery and work better then a station
system)

the tldr:
I'm fine with all this.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense looking at it from any other perspective then helping out groups that are least in need of any help (really the whole compression improvement would have gone a long way on its own). It help already hulking powerblocks be unbeatable in yet anotehr way.

It wrecks lore and logic.

that all

If you actually read the post you would see thats not the point im making as well as i already got you covered in the first sentence. (Hey look at that- another powerblock-er who isnt satiesfied with already being able to outgun and outearn everybody else already )

Doesnt the ore varieties available in null answer this in some part atleast on the mining side of things?

Ice being the exception, as a flat commodity available everywhere in predictable location and duration.
(Hopefully something to be addressed eventually)

On the refining side of things I agree player run installations should have an incentive over NPC stations.

Why cant anyone post anything anymore whithout a goon pikinese yapping at their ankles?

The answer to your question is in the text itself. And its META to this partocular change.
Perhaps you need another bit of pre-chewing of the contained info: Reason to mine and refine in null....uhm logistics (one could make a point that moving ore isnt too difficult/expensive- its not difficult/expensive enough)? Doing other stuff than blob fighting?

Doesnt this create a reverse impetus though?

At the same time as mining becomes more profitable and efficient in null, due to logistic ease of refining the ore at a higher efficiency locally, with less transport involved, the compression of high-sec ores and transporting those to the same high efficiency null refineries is also added.

Why not just continue mining in high-sec with alts in safety, compressing and shipping to null-sec refineries?

Yes, but null gets that 20% bonus regardless of where the ore/ice originates from.

Though there is an increased incentive to mine in null, that same time spent mining can also be spent instead in hauling compressed high-sec ore/ice for the same 20% bonus in null refineries.

The time to mine stuff goes away when you simply buy the ice/ore in high-sec (compressed or not) and ship that.

You still get the 20% increased yield upon arrival.

The time to mine is simply replaced by time in hauling, and its "faster" to buy a bulk of ice/ore (compressed or not) and move it, than it is to actually mine it.

By leveraging the increased refine yield, you can essentially eliminate the need to mine in the first place.

Depends. If you can mine more Ore in High sec than in 00 sec (safety first ), it can very well be possible that the first choice is faster than the second. All depends.

Miners will be affected little by these changes but the need to, haul - compress - haul - refine - haul - manufacture - haul to market, is all going to add costs.

How do you figure it will fall, are Goons going to upgrade all their refining stations for free? Are renters going to have their stations upgraded for free??
Is the ore and minerals going to be hauled for free?

Yes the Trit has changed hands many times 'and' each time it changes hands someone has to make a profit.

Ok so this works by your math.. At 50 bil a hit to upgrade stations, how many battleships do you need to build 20% cheaper to recoup the investment. Because your not getting cheaper ships until the upgrades are paid for.
I know goons have too much isk and waste a lot but 50bil?? That's close to paying for the next titan.

Seriously if you expect goon market wh*res to sell 20% cheaper than the next guy, I think your in for a nasty shock..

What is not truthful with my answer? A Mack mines just as much in 00 as in High sec, that is true. But if you can mine 10 hours in High sec without disturbance, you mine more than if you can only mine 5 hours in 00 - thus you get your required ores/minerals faster. Transport of course also plays a role, but I'm convinced that this is negligible in comparison.

By means of an example.

I have an ice/ore mining alt currently in an NPC Corp in high sec.

What incentive can a null corp offer me, pending these changes, that I join and come down there to contribute my output to the null economy?

Sorry, I don't understand.

That is not fair or true.
I could argue the same towards you saying that you have spent your entire time in this thread arguing with the people unhappy with this change, and it would be equally unfair and untrue.

I'm sincerely asking out of personal self-interest for making profit on my miner, and for purposes of putting the changes proposed into a real frame of reference, what benefit I would stand if I take my unaffiliated miner who is currently just mining ice day in day out and selling it directly to market in high-sec, to null sec pending these changes.

Thanks for the reply.

I can mine Ice in high-sec with less risk and have no transport costs as I can sell it raw directly from the in-system stations to existing BOs that exceed those of even market hubs.

The 20% refine bonus would be nice, but I have no ice-refining skills. The character is only good at mining itself.
Do I gain free access to your refineries and will someone refine my stuff for me? If not, at what cost?

Random numbers. I could also have taken 10/1 or 10/7, doesn't change the fact.

I turn around words in other's mouths, find loopholes in other's logics or extend their's in ways they don't want to see it extended, I grudge other's theoretical and practical success, and want to see others wriggle like an eel when they justify their logic and their way to play the game. There are more ifs connected to everything in EVE, there is no non-if-able solution in EVE, so I just do what is obvious. Makes me the perfect EVE player in the current state of things, doesn't it?

Because it does solve none of the more fundamental problems in the game and kicks tons of existing problems just further down the road. Moreover, there is already more than enough reward to be had outside of High sec, as stated before (unless the posts were deleted in CCP's "private cleaning party"), but people just cannot be bothered to reap them and put effort into. This change also does not change any of the reasons for many people to not go into 00 sec space, because many of their reasons are not solvable/changeable by changing game mechanics. It only makes their lifes more difficult, nothing else (also as stated before and in other threads).
Another example are the immense and exuberant expectations that people have and are driven to have with regards to SRP. What is your SRP again? Pay people double the price of the ships they fly? Something like that at least. That's sick, on the one hand, and it turns people into spoiled crybabies who don't know the effort, investments and time that is needed to create these things and they don't need to invest time and effort to earn these things. On the other hand, the more people demand such SRP, the more easy money the alliance needs to make, which turns into an neat spiral with a very well-known end. In High sec, people at least fly around in their stuff they have earned through mission grinding or mining (or botting, if you wish), but certain 00 focused entities foist the impression on me that they depend entirely on being able to provide people with such extensive SRP to keep them on board. I am convinced that this is not something that should be supported further than it already is.

As to bot preponderance in high-sec, I think that is related to the low risk of being blown up, whereas botters would be KOS in null.
I mean if I was ever to bot, not that I would, Id set my fleets up in remote high-sec fields where nobody will ever even notice me ingame.

Because botters in 00 need more maintenance than in High sec and can be easily disrupted.

You've already forgotten about the lengthy fights in B-R and HED? Your Hell Camp of N3s staging system in Detorid?

Right, your coalition call it strat ops ... Oh wait ... ... CTA Strat Op even... Are we really down to letter picking now?

Also its not good that the PoS module assumes max skill. Why train 200 days of skills if I can just use a PoS for almost max skill refine? And what about the rorqual? Where is its role now?

Also isn't the now required 200 days training time a bit much? Maybe shrink it down alot?

Right now you have to put about 5.5 million SP in resorce processing, after this it will be almost 20 million. BIG JUMP. More so than tech 2 guns even.

If your a serious miner your going to want to be able to refine everything at perfect levels to get the most out of your activity. Hence 20 million skill points now required instead of previous 5.5 million for perfect.

real problems why industry is stagnating in null depends a lot from mentality and leadership, roles management mechanics and so on.

Then CCP is obviously confusing things here. You don't push more people into a broken system, make them learn and deal with a broken system - only to have them learn and deal with a completely new system just months after that push - and then fix the system. What CCP does with this is again just makeshift and imposed changes for the sake of change and leaving the problems as is. In real life, this approach would end in (potentially complete) failure of the operation or at least in massive disgruntlement of the customers, but in EVE this is just swallowed and everyone moves on...

So a 1% chance every ten thousand ore you refine that your clone dies, you loose your implants and you have to upgrade a new clone? Sounds fair on that front.
Also known as BS failed. The stations aren't run by Capsuleers, they are owned by Capsuleers, they are run by normal people.

The simple fact is that after the years & years of Null screaming how they couldn't compete because they had a disadvantage, which most sensible high sec players agreed with them on, now that they have the advantage they are trying to put the boot down on high sec, rather than acknowledging that it is unfair for any space to have such an advantage in basic refining.

Interesting, this totally slipped my mind. I'll have a look if that is viable and can be done for some time after summer. No promises though

not sure if its been posted in the previous 90 pages, but minmatar stations need some serious love.

Currently the minmatar station is strictly worse then all other stations, except for the fact that it can refine

Current attributes on base stations before any upgrades are installed


Station:( Regular Build Slots, Bosster Build Slots, Combined Lab slots{ME, PE, Copying, Invention Slots} , Office Slots)

Amarr ( 50, 10, 6, 16)
Caldari ( 5, 5, 80, 18)
Gallente ( 10, 10, 14, 36)
Minmatar ( 5, 0 , 0, 10)

Currently the only thing helping the minmatar station is the base 35% refinery. After the patch the only thing the minmatar station will have is a 2% base increase to refining over other stations while still being worse at everything else

soo summer 2020? ^^