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Mathemagicians required to solve the warp-capacitor equation.

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Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 10:54:00 - [1] Hey guys. I'm on a bit of a maths bender at the moment and something has grabbed my interest. I was thinking about all the things we have solved in eve like stacking penalty, shield and capacitor recharge (thanks Dust Puppy) and such, things which have had direct implications in tools like Quickfit, which runs a capacitor simulator. I wondered "how long will it take to get from A to B?" and while we can estimate the length of time it will take to warp across a system, I realised that there was a piece of the puzzle missing - what if you need multiple warps in a big system with a ship with small capacitor? We don't currently know the warp-capacitor use equation (or at least I don't). What I mean by that is that I wish to know how much capacitor it will take exactly to warp various exact distances in kilometers and AU with given ship specs such as mass. Is there anyone out there with the mathematical knowhow and spare time to work this out? I'm thinking the Eve University could get involved in discovering the exact formula? This could have implications such as a program which works out exactly how long your ship will take to go AFK from point A to B, give or take a little for time to load the new system. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2006.05.02 11:42:00 - [2] The equation is actually really simple it's just how much cap per mass of the ship per AU. That value however is different per ship. All the different classes have different values and individual ships have been balanced differently. The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example).

Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.02 11:44:00 - [3] Originally by: CCP Hammer The equation is actually really simple it's just how much cap per mass of the ship per AU. That value however is different per ship. All the different classes have different values and individual ships have been balanced differently. The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example). rly? i always thought it was exponential AU distance for cap. it seems i can warp eg 5AU with half cap and 7.5au with full cap [example] but i never sat down and tested this, its just what it feels like! -------------------Sig----------------------- Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.05.02 11:49:00 - [4] I just want to know if it's possible to prevent people from warping by nosing their cap to 0
El Verbatim	Posted - 2006.05.02 11:54:00 - [5] Edited by: El Verbatim on 02/05/2006 11:55:35 Edited by: El Verbatim on 02/05/2006 11:54:52 I've been testing this.... it's not that difficult to get a first idea about it. another factor that's important apart from capacitor size and mass of the ship is the propulsion strength (oh yes... it's actually used ). This explains why the buzzard warps further then a kestrel although the buzzard has higher mass and lower cap size (it does have a higher propulsion strength). Take a ship, find a warp-to point, write down distance and compare capacitor size just before and after initiating warp. Do this for multiple distances and for different ships (same race though!!!) and you'll be able to start fitting a curve through it. It's a log curve btw (or exponential if you turn the formula around) or at least that gave me the best results. I did notice however that different races end up with different cap usages, even for the same propulsion strength or mass. So you would have to do this execise for each race.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 11:56:00 - [6] Originally by: CCP Hammer The equation is actually really simple it's just how much cap per mass of the ship per AU. That value however is different per ship. All the different classes have different values and individual ships have been balanced differently. The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example). I still want to know it :). It may not be of use to everyone but it would be of use to me. And not to call you into question but I can warp over 500AU on an iteron V's cap without knocking it to 0. From experience, it doesn't look to be a linear system like you're suggesting. So you're saying each ship has a built in constant x, where the equation is cap=x*y with a distance y in AU? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
El Verbatim	Posted - 2006.05.02 11:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Nyphur So you're saying each ship has a built in constant x, where the equation is cap=x*y with a distance y in AU? From my experience it's more that each RACE has its own constants, not each ship. The differences between the ships for each race are controlled by the propulsion strenght (based on my testing). I've only worked on this for Caldari and I could match the results pretty decent when taking propulsion strength into account. The moment i tried to use a different race, my formula was completely wrong so that's why I think it's per race and not per ship.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:01:00 - [8] Edited by: Nyphur on 02/05/2006 12:02:25 Originally by: El Verbatim Originally by: Nyphur So you're saying each ship has a built in constant x, where the equation is cap=x*y with a distance y in AU? From my experience it's more that each RACE has its own constants, not each ship. The differences between the ships for each race are controlled by the propulsion strenght (based on my testing). I've only worked on this for Caldari and I could match the results pretty decent when taking propulsion strength into account. The moment i tried to use a different race, my formula was completely wrong so that's why I think it's per race and not per ship. Interesting. And Hammer says that some ships have been individually balanced :/. So could you work out a complete, general-purpose formula for calculating the capacitor needed to warp a distance x in kilometers (or AU, whichever), given all the information about the ship doing the warp that is availible? That's basically what I'm after. EDIT: There's isk in it for you :D. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
El Verbatim	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:02:00 - [9] Originally by: CCP Hammer The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example). I've noticed this too in my tests. The constants are pretty small and your results are pretty sensitive to rounding errors. Because of this, I've noticed that it's easier to predict warp distances or cap usage for bigger ships then for the frigates.
El Verbatim	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:03:00 - [10] Edited by: El Verbatim on 02/05/2006 12:05:45 if individual ships have been balanced then I don't think you will find a general all-purpose formula.... I'll see if I can give you my results for caldari when I'm back home (read: if I don't forget). I only did the tests for Caldari but you could use the same approach to do the other races. My main and alt can't fly all the different ships to do a complete test (unless the testing server comes back on).
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:08:00 - [11] Originally by: CCP Hammer The equation is actually really simple it's just how much cap per mass of the ship per AU. That value however is different per ship. All the different classes have different values and individual ships have been balanced differently. The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example). can we have them anyway?
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: CCP Hammer The equation is actually really simple it's just how much cap per mass of the ship per AU. That value however is different per ship. All the different classes have different values and individual ships have been balanced differently. The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example). can we have them anyway? Along with the equation for how weapon damage is calculated, factoring in tracking and anything else we dont know about and fully understand? Testy's Eve Blog!
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:19:00 - [13] Originally by: El Verbatim Edited by: El Verbatim on 02/05/2006 12:05:45 if individual ships have been balanced then I don't think you will find a general all-purpose formula.... 'course I will. It'll just involve a list of ships and their constants :). Think less "enclosed mathematical formula" and more "program implementation". If Eve can inplement it, so can we. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:20:00 - [14] Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/05/2006 12:20:44 Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: CCP Hammer The equation is actually really simple it's just how much cap per mass of the ship per AU. That value however is different per ship. All the different classes have different values and individual ships have been balanced differently. The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example). can we have them anyway? Along with the equation for how weapon damage is calculated, factoring in tracking and anything else we dont know about and fully understand? yes please also, the exact equations used for agility, turning speed, etc would be nice too edit: btw testy I lose you email address in my leaving post because the mods killed the thread - evemail it to me if you still want to talk
Nafri	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:21:00 - [15] and then we finally find out why the rook can only warp 70 AU Summertime - Campingtime!
Velsharoon	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:21:00 - [16] sneaky sneaky Need a new sig :/
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: CCP Hammer The equation is actually really simple it's just how much cap per mass of the ship per AU. That value however is different per ship. All the different classes have different values and individual ships have been balanced differently. The value isn't published because it would be of no use to the majority of players and the value is so small it ends up looking like 7.45e-008 (just a made up example). can we have them anyway? Along with the equation for how weapon damage is calculated, factoring in tracking and anything else we dont know about and fully understand? yes please also, the exact equations used for agility, turning speed, etc would be nice too Let's not hijack my thread just because a dev has replied ;). Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Fi T'Zeh	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:24:00 - [18] jeez if they released these numbers we'd be inundated with another 600 whine threads with detailed graphs explaining why a particular frigate was imba because it's cap use per au is better than another. OH GREAT GODS NO THANKS. .... Real men use blasters
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Fi T'Zeh jeez if they released these numbers we'd be inundated with another 600 whine threads with detailed graphs explaining why a particular frigate was imba because it's cap use per au is better than another. OH GREAT GODS NO THANKS. get back to editing pc gamer you
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Nyphur Let's not hijack my thread just because a dev has replied ;). Sorry. But was nothing to do with a dev in particular - was just due to the fact that the "only" reason it wasnt released was because it seemed irrelevent. If thats the only reason, then surely we could have other formulae made available, too. Testy's Eve Blog!
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Nyphur Let's not hijack my thread just because a dev has replied ;). Sorry. But was nothing to do with a dev in particular - was just due to the fact that the "only" reason it wasnt released was because it seemed irrelevent. If thats the only reason, then surely we could have other formulae made available, too. For people like Dust Puppy and the other guys at Eve University, discovering this stuff would be half the fun, I imagine. I'd be pleased if the devs just gave this data out in a database export or something but there are always ways to discover it to a good degree of accuracy without their help and some people really enjoy it. Plus, isk reward :p. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Farjung	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:36:00 - [22] The relevant values are available by looking at something like jide's obex, afaik. aeti and I did some tests with it a couple of months back, figures roughly matched in-game testing, though I don't really remember the details and there was quite a large margin of error. The warpCapacitorNeed field in ship info is the relevant one. --- Reckless Wave of Mutilation
Elaron	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:37:00 - [23] Edited by: Elaron on 02/05/2006 12:38:13 If you look on Jide's Object Explorer (link I have might be out of date, but I'm sure you dedicated folks will have it to hand anyway), then you'll see that ships have a stat called "WarpCapacitorNeed". For the Tempest it's 0.000000138. I tried multiplying that by the mass of the ship (102500000 kg) and by a sensible warp distance (say 125AU) and that got a very reasonable looking 1768 capacitor needed. Beaten to the punch, but at least I've got numbers :D Elaron It is never too late to correct the mistakes of the past.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Farjung The warpCapacitorNeed field in ship info is the relevant one. Thank you very much. I assumed that stat wouldn't have been in the data export since Hammer said they didn't publish it. I don't know why i didn't check Jide's site. How accurately is this displayed? Is it as accurate as is in the data export or is it rounded? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Farjung	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:47:00 - [25] Never looked at the data export raw personally, but Jide's obex doesn't seem to do much rounding. It's given to 3 s.f.. --- Reckless Wave of Mutilation
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Farjung Never looked at the data export raw personally, but Jide's obex doesn't seem to do much rounding. It's given to 3 s.f.. With values that small, that may be too little. I just did a test with the Dominix. It worked, roughly, but wasn't exact. It was off by an amount which was statistically significant. It can not be accounted for by cap recharge. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Aba Tor	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Nyphur Let's not hijack my thread just because a dev has replied ;). Sorry. But was nothing to do with a dev in particular - was just due to the fact that the "only" reason it wasnt released was because it seemed irrelevent. If thats the only reason, then surely we could have other formulae made available, too. That would be cool, but the chances are... slim... maye soon TM :) ... A wise man never plays TAG with a RINO
Farjung	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:57:00 - [28] Mm, shouldn't matter how big or small the number is, 3 s.f. is 3 s.f. ;p. e.g. the difference between 1.37 * 10 ^-7, 1.38 * 10^-7 and 1.39 * 10^-7 is still only 0.7% or so. I do vaguely remember there were some consistent inaccuracies in our results that couldn't be explained, but the distances involved weren't great (only across Oursulaert) so it was hard to do proper testing, and I didn't bother to move to a system with a 100 AU+ warp. --- Reckless Wave of Mutilation
Elaron	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:57:00 - [29] Did you take your Warp Drive Operation skill into effect? Elaron It is never too late to correct the mistakes of the past.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.02 12:59:00 - [30] Edited by: Nyphur on 02/05/2006 13:05:50 Originally by: Elaron Did you take your Warp Drive Operation skill into effect? hits head Thanks Elaron. EDIT: Retested and I came up a few points of cap (that's cap left in my ship afer warping) over what I calculated. I figure that the cap display only updates when your capacitor recharge tick hits. That means it would take the cap out but only display it after it's recharged one tick after that. That accounts fully for the discrepancy. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.

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