...subset of EVE players who are (a) ignorant about the nature of the game, and (b) greedy.

Getting on an emotional rollercoaster is easy, getting off is hard. And having people pressuring you to keep going down that path makes it even harder.

I don't agree with everything Ripard writes or with every solution he proposes. But he has a generally good point in this current posting theme, EVE has a toxic brand identity. That's not a good thing, no matter how you spin it.

Simple, CCP is a private company. If CCP decided to ban someone because they wore pink shoes with green polka dots while wearing a business suit, that's their prerogative and they are allowed to do that. However, you may want to look into what a Slippery Slope logical fallacy is. If CCP concedes to the player base in this instance to ban a player, under no circumstances are they required to do so again in the future if they choose not to.

If they would of just said "HA, we fooled you" and stole his assets. I'd be ok with it. But tormenting him for it by giving him false hope of some way of redemption. No. Convincing him that it'd be worth it in the end. No.

Righteous indignation doesn't keep the servers running.

One of many definitions, but the one I prefer at the moment, would be Kant's Categorical Imperative :

"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction."[1]

Kant has a certain reputation for obscurity, which is certainly justified, so if it isn't immediately apparent what he means, that could be paraphrased somewhat loosely as "do unto others as you would want to be done to".

I'm to page 19 now. Contrary to popular belief, Widot guys are actually pretty smart.

Meanwhile, Erotica1 has many friends on the forums who don't want to see him punished, they are out in droves trying to justify that recording. They don't want their "fun" or their popular guy threatened.

So Malcanis, you "white knght" Erotica1 because he is "somebody" in the community and the other guy is a "nobody"

Harassment is a real world crime regardless of where it happens.

To those arguing that the assets are owned by CCP, then it falls incumbent on CCP to press charges on Erotica1 for ransoming their ingame proprietary property against an individual who has paid CCPfor use of them, by means of extortion/blackmail occuring OUTSIDE of thee game.

I would expect a CSM member to have no opinion and just moderate the forum so that it does not devolve into name calling. I wouldn't expect a blue tag opinion either as that should be discussed with legal and not published on the forum.

Erotica1 has been blackmailing/extorting clients of CCP OUTSIDE of the game, by means of and against their (either Sohkars or CCPs, depending on how that swings) ingame property.

There is no false claim here. The recording is real, and takes place outside of the game, as does everything that occurs in that recording.

This is but one asshat among many and Valkyrie is every bit as dangerous to "original" EVE as Star Citizen and the other games coming down the pipe.

I love how some players like to pretend that EVE is difficult. It's not. Your woefully misguided mentality is the kind of thing that kills many businesses. "My product is great! Those people are just haters! I'm not going to change anything! We didn't want those customers anyway!"

"When the bullies harass you, go find a teacher."

But we must admit, if you did press charges, wouldn't it be rather awkward to explain what you were doing and why at the time you got threatened? I'd hate to be on a witness stand with that story and a jury of people who live in the "real world" is not going to see any victims at the point where all the facts are known.

Do you attribute this to his lack of awareness or Erotica1's skill at manipulation?

"Shouldn't have worn that dress"

so we've had a torture, and sexual assault comparison.
any bets on the next dumb comparison?

Correct, which is why I was making the point that it is in fact still harassment despite what Batelle (the person I was responding to) believes and said nearly the same thing you responded to me with.

I cancelled one of my money-paying subscriptions in protest at CCP tolerating cyber-bullying.

I encourage others to do the same.

We can live without that 4th dictor/cyno alt. CCP cant live without our money.

Time to make a stand and clean up EVE.

I wasn't comparing it to sexual assault. I was comparing his rationalization to the rationalizations for sexual assault.

You are underestimating the severity of this situation.

Extortion and blackmail are a federal felony in the US.

What happened to him is the following by analogy:

Your daughter comes out of a store with a lollipop inhand, happy as can be.

A grown man comes up to your daughter and promises her that if she gives him her lollipop, he will give her two back in return.

Your daughter thinks about this for a moment, and decides that two lollipops are indeed better than one.
She complies and gives him her lollipop.

The grown man, now holding her lollipop, then additionally informs her that in order for her to get the double lollipop deal, she has to get off the street she is on, and follow him down this dark alley.

That is what is happening here.

Considering in game isk can be turned into plex\Aur etc which is worth RL cash and using plex u may "pay" sub and considering there is some RL cash value to isk in EVE you point is invalid.

Both of those quotes are just wrong. I feel violated.

I suppose you could argue that extortion/blackmail are a form of breach of contract.
But that is why you are not a lawyer.

Which is exactly why what happened outside of the game constitutes blackmail/extortion instead.

The second the interchange between these parties was taken outside of the game, the ingame context ceased to apply.

The perpetrators coerced the victim into an out of game context, by means of his (or CCPs) ingame assets.
What happened in that out of game context, is potentially illegal.

I don't think CCP wants its services being used as a means for individuals to perpetrate crimes against other players. Infact much of the EULA and CCP's informal policy, including some key elements of the CSM constitution notably, explicitly forbid people using ingame assets against the people who are playing the game.

Yes, but we're not talking about the consequences within Eve. We're talking about the consequences outside of Eve. Sure, different domains have different standards and rules. But the idea of shifting the blame to the victim is a very HTFU sort of thing, which we generally don't endorse as an ideal in Western society, IRL.

When this guy was kept on voice comms for 2 hours, when his wife became involved, when they mocked his RL speech impediment, this wasn't Eve inside the game client anymore. It became very personal and very RL very fast.

Without taking sides, since when is the idea of using your power as a buyer to not purchase a service, the only real power a consumer has to affect change in a company, a cry of entitlement?

Erotica got that guys assets/isk in that recording, but instead of kicking him and moving on, decided instead to prolong his humiliation for his own and his hangers on amusements.

Oh God, I'm about to defend Salvos Rhoska... THIS is how bad this is. Still, here goes.

Salvos did not say that he wanted someone to kick E1 in the face, just that he'd laugh and/or applaud 'if' someone did.

One difference between your young(tm) type bullying and current online(tm) type bullying, is that it's way way way harder to actually do something about it. Classic face to face bullying, you could try fight back by punching some sense into someone. It's much harder to smack someone in the face when they're anonymous behind a screen in a different country and can keep on doing stuff. So I wouldn't call it fair to compare the two types as if they were equal. But I fully understand your point.

Can you guarantee that in every one the participant was PROPERLY and LEGALLY informed and asked for consent to be recorded, and for the distribution of the recordings? Can you?

If he cannot, then it is possible that some persons rights have been violated in the Bonus Room activity.

Well, after the orgasm, it's kind of a moot point.

If they get their hands on it they will exploit it and CCP will ban Erotica 1 as a form of damage control. I'd do the same, it's a game not a free country. But whether something actually bad happened, and whether CCP have to act due to media pressure, are two different issues.

Would that be an accurate analogy, do you think?

Massively, known for the pieces devoid of sensationalistic titles and click baiting, already ran a piece calling it "cyber-bullying".

If you wish and think you can do better, then you represent by analogy, or give an example of an actual case.

...UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.

Ero1 and equivalent cronies are just trying to break your EVE, and nothing more.

the same bile that happened after fanfest. The media will likely rake that up as a little reminder and then say that this behaviour has been allowed to proliferate and then use bonus room antics to further support their case. Which they of course would not be able to if it was never made public. You see thats where this all falls appart, its the old saying "its all a bit of fun untill someone loses an eye".

are any of those parts directed at the in game character or the person driving the character.

You see this is why the grey line of in game / outgame meta gaming has been crossed and why there is going to be more than this threadnought with regards to a shitstorm.

The Lynch Mob is standing in the street holding up a rope, armed and angry, what you going to do CCP?

I can't believe that this community is justifying a person treating another person like this. I've even heard CSM member likening people's anger against this to the behaviour of a homophobic dictator.

Is this the 'New' Eden.

Not at all sure I want to be a part of it anymore.

To those of you who support the Bonus Room as a legitimate Eve activity, what is the line an Eve player would have to cross to get you to admit he did something wrong?

I'm confused about the term 'cyber bullying'

For me, this is about how CCP need to codify that there is a standard of conduct (there is one in the EULA/TOS) and that, should external factors beyond their control be used to breach that conduct, then sanctions within their control (bans, reversals etc) can and will be administered.

Oh buddy, buddy. Its not MY credibility. Thats not how it works my friend.

They follow up EVERY tip. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Its their job. They have a list, they go through every single line.

They will come. Americans dont mess around with pedophelia, online luring, **** and abuse of victims. E1 is smack down in the middle of this. And I would not associate with him. Not when FBI starts digging.

Except for it does. Multiple recordings of abuse sessions, multiple victims, pattern of behaviour....

Oh buddy, the hammer will come down on E1, and it will come down hard.

The US government (and I) would disagree with your nuanced definition. Here's what is posted as a definition on stopbullying.gov (didn't even know that website existed until I googled the definition):

"Cyberbullying is bullying that takes place using electronic technology. Electronic technology includes devices and equipment such as cell phones, computers, and tablets as well as communication tools including social media sites, text messages, chat, and websites.

Examples of cyberbullying include mean text messages or emails, rumors sent by email or posted on social networking sites, and embarrassing pictures, videos, websites, or fake profiles."

No mention of "typically carried out by acquaintances" (stated) or "easy to walk away from" (implied).

Bullying Definition:

Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance.

Irrelevant that the US hasn't updated its definition of bullying. They have however in many of the states in the US passed or are intending to pass workplace bullying laws so obviously the definition only applying to "school age children" is incorrect.

In any case whatever you want to call it, its the actions not the word that is important.

That's pretty much spot on for what Erotica and its 'friends' did.

I have not once called for Erotica1 to be banned. What I advocate is that it should be defined that this is unacceptable behaviour and we (the community) and they (CCP) do not want to be associated (through EVE) with it. Should this occur and subsequently anyone continues to do 'Bonus Rooms' where the only intent is to humiliate a person (not a character) for as long as possible, then yes, pass me the banstick.

Seriously though, it's CCP's game, and they have the right to remove anyone they find "distasteful." We are just asking that they acknowledge this behavior as not only distasteful but detrimental to the continued health and growth of their game, and to take appropriate action to preserve said game.

Your definition of bullying is incorrect though, despite your personal interpretation of the term.
It is what the definitions of it say it is. Its not hard to look them up and accept that.

Repetition is not a condition of bullying. Even a single act can constitute it.
Several people have explained this to you. I linked you a definition, yesterday, 2 other guys have linked you one today.
And yet you still insist that bullying involves things that are not actually implicit in it at all.

The real belligerent here is Ripard Teg.

stop posting
From: XXXXXXXXX
Sent: 2014.03.26 21:13
To: LUMINOUS SPIRIT,

Dude, 20 bil isk for you if you quietly stop posting.


Interesting. E1 thinks I can be quietly bought off for a mere 20 bil? Lol?

0

Bye.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that . Where is the line in these situations. For all discussions and commentators most agree, myself including scamming is fine. But once scam is completed and you have all possible assets extracted , is it ok to prolong the ordeal for the sucker ( victime , self inflicted) for tear extraction as it is called in-game.

Erotica1 set it up with the intent to focus on humilating people , not avatars not just to scam.

Being vulnerable is not an offense to anybody. Taking advantage of the vulnerable for your own sadistic pleasure is.

---

"Since 1973Amnesty International has adopted the simplest, broadest definition of torture:

"Torture is the systematic and deliberate infliction of acute pain by one person on another, or on a third person, in order to accomplish the purpose of the former against the will of the latter."

---

It becomes a violation if you use this platform to lure people out of it using predatory / extortion / false promise techniques.

**** your rules. It's about common human civility. Not our problem if your moral compass is ******.

Yes I have morals in Eve.
No I don't care if you think I take the game too serious. I put 7 years into this **** so I damn well better be serious.

I invite you to introduce your 'way of thinking' (I refuse to use the word logic for what you're attempting) at a TED conference one day.

I have not anywhere claimed that I am a lawyer.

And how do you know I have not already spoken at TED?

It is not necessary to be restrained or prevented from being able to remove oneself from the situation, for it to constitue torture, and in this incidence, it is exactly that which the perpetrators are leveraging against the victim.

Bait a person, never breaking the rules, but going to the authorities as soon as the victim tried to defend themselves.

-The will of the perpetrators in the Bonus Room, is to force the victim to leave the Bonus Room.
This is how they win the Bonus Room.

-The will of the victim is to fulfill the terms of the contract, and receive the reward.
That is how they win the Bonus Room (supposedly).

You criticized me earlier when I brought up contract law, and I explained how there are multiple reasons why no such contract can exist.

If you are going to argue that there can be no contract because there are no actual, real or owned assets involved, I'm sorry, but you are wrong.

wtf are you talking about. You're supposed to be explaining how the "victim" isn't a voluntary party to the events in question.

Nobody is voluntarily party to torture.

That exactly is the mechanism whereby the perpetrators force the victim out of the Bonus Room, which constitutes a "win" for them.

Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.

False.

Being able to walk away from a situation in which you are being subjected to torture, does not stop the actions being taken against you from being torture.

Being restrained from leaving the situation is furthermore not a pre-condition to something fulfilling the definition of torture.

Voluntarily entering into a situation in which you are then subjected to torture, is also not a pre-condition to it fulfilling the definition of torture.

See the elaboration in my sig, for the specifics of how this conduct constitutes torture.

Just looking at the comments, EVE is getting a ton of bad press from this. All these negative comments being made about EVE.

Sorry, where is the post with these links?

And I don't need your permission to talk to you.

Amnesty International is the world leader in legal counsel on matters of human rights.

If you wish to provide other definitions, feel free to do so.

Have you read the link submitted in my sig?

But wasn't it they're goal to all along to find a participant like Sohkar? Push someone enough until they crack and provide audio to play over and over. While Sohkar is 100% not excused for the racist tirade he went on, I think in the end they got what they wanted. Why else would they post it online afterward?

Many good points.

Have you read the post submitted in my sig?

Long live the Code.

Look what Microsoft is doing in cases like this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26766098

EVE should do similar.