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Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2014.03.26 12:14:00 -
[61] - Quote
Should Industrial ships be able to solo battleships?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6so9AT4UydQ
:)
It's eve bro. Bigger wallet, bigger ship, and more sp doesn't give you an autowin. There is a counter to everything, L2 not get checkmated so easily. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
34
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
This is perfect example why the balancing of small weapons vs large targets is need. This video contains the exact exploit I'm talking about. Battleship killed with 1 small blaster! In staid of an industrial ship it could have been a frigate. This is the literal sinking of the battleship with the machine-gun.
That's what un-blanced combat looks like.
Not to mention the other absurd exploits in that fit. Stacking armor repairs without any penalty. Stacking cap recharge without any penalty and so on. Basically stacking repair rate and cap recharge on a 2mil med ship to tank a battleship. Players that exploit this part of the game like it, who wouldn't like it? But it's wrong.
In simple terms that anyone would understand this looks like WoW character that endlessly refills his hit points and mana without any problem.
Players that are around for some time in the game like to think about Eve that it's a complex game and hard (indirectly making them good players). Complex? Yes, player driven economy, politics and so on. Hard? what's hard the ship to ship combat? It's not hard, it's completely broken. Just take the right ship+fit and get ok exploiting the game.
Simply put the Eve combat in World of Warcraft terms looks like this: 2 classes can fight, the other 8 are just targets that can't fight back. Who would play something like this. Well probably 30-40k players would still play it and think it's very good.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20269
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:This is perfect example why the balancing of small weapons vs large targets is need. This video contains the exact exploit I'm talking about. Battleship killed with 1 small blaster! In staid of an industrial ship it could have been a frigate. This is the literal sinking of the battleship with the machine-gun. No. It's the literal sinking of the battleship with the anti-ship cannon. For your scenario to play out, you'd have to take that battleship into Dust.
It's not an exploit. It's using a weapon for its intended purpose. It is also an extremely incompetent battleship pilot.
Quote:That's what un-blanced combat looks like. No, it's how balanced combat looks like: when your ship does not guarantee you anything, especially when mixed with incompetence, and when bigger isn't automatically better. That way, you can't pay your way to victory, nor can you just rely on your skill queue to do the work for you. You actually have to do a large part of the job yourself. It means you are always at risk, rather than in some massively unbalanced state of always on top.
Quote:Not to mention the other absurd exploits in that fit. You keep using that word. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
Quote:In simple terms that anyone would understand this looks like WoW character that endlessly refills his hit points and mana without any problem. It's not endless, you know that right? And you know that any WoW comparison is inherently incorrect since WoW operates on an utterly hateful, lazy, and obsolete bigger-is-better design?
Quote:Simply put the Eve combat in World of Warcraft terms looks like this: 2 classes can fight, the other 8 are just targets that can't fight back. Yeah, no. That's not how EVE actually works. It is how WoW works, though, where smaller stuff is flat out forbidden to do any damage to the large stuff, just so you can have a simplistic one-directional power curve that creeps endlessly upwards, obsoleting old stuff as it goes. EVE uses the much more elegant and balanced design of having hard and soft counters to everything, and no real power levels. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Gregor Parud
343
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
OP wants power creep and "bigger is better", or he just wants to troll. either way, it's not worth a serious discussion.
Get out.
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
309
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
I guess it's easy to rag on the OP - initially. However, I think there is a point hovering in his post somewhere. It has to do with "form follows function". You can see the absurdity more with frigates, or dessies against industrials. My example would be to take your favorite Humvee and ram it into a bulldozer. See who gets off the lightest.
The purpose of a bulldozer (for instance) requires it be constructed with a certain density, size, etc., with no regard as to whether it's being fired upon, or not. However, hit the magic of EVE and industrial vehicles suddenly become aluminum foil. It's as though the "physics" required to handle metric tons of space dirt don't transfer to managing any other forces in physics.
I'd go so far as to suggest ramming a Caterpillar with an M1 Abrams would give the tank owner a heart attack at the thought of it. You look at the sheer size and density of these major mining "vessels," or earth movers today (compared to their modern armored counterparts) and you really have to scratch your head at the - extrapolations CCP designers have employed.
Getting back to the game where reality has no application (but where convenient to the programmers), when you find an entire game population flock to a particular kind of ship as THE SHIP, while a particular ship is abandoned en masse as THE SHIP THAT SUCKS, you've definitely got an imbalance that could be viewed as a material chokepoint - chokepoints being a game designing cardinal sin.
However, also, it must be said - Even though with the advent of T3 cruisers and the all but complete abandonment of battleships as being fail boats, there isn't a lot of "fleet" fighting going on. Small groups in a fleet, yes. However, fleets of the size where the various types of ships are called together to perform the myriad functions available don't seem to be happening much at all.
Is this a failure on the part of game design? Or, is it a failure in terms of how the playerbase "socializes"? Has the "trust no one" aspect of the game revealed itself in this leaving the player base to nitpick over game mechanics and individual component stats, replacing the language and interactions surrounding full-fleet functionality?
(Is this why scads of more intelligent players have abandoned the game leaving it to be populated by two-dimensionally thinking miner gankers?) Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
111
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:33:00 -
[66] - Quote
Dude, antimatter will destroy **** no matter how little you use.
Only rustbuckets use projectiles, and they contain plasma and ****. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
35
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Posted - 2014.03.26 15:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. It's the literal sinking of the battleship with the anti-ship cannon.
Yes, anti-ship cannon that works on everything from drones to capital ships with equal efficiency
Big guns are designed to work on big targets and suffer a lot of drawbacks when used on small targets. Small guns work against small targets and they work without any drawbacks. That's the problem here.
I think most Eve players understand that but don't really want to admit it because they like to use cheap ships and cheap fits and be equally efficient against any targets. All of you know what parts of Eve are broken and you know how to avoid and exploit it. That's why you can use a cargo ships with a machine gun to destroy a battleship.
That's why Eve never get more than 50k online players in weekend and went free 2 play. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2558
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Posted - 2014.03.26 15:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
ITT: OP doesn't understand EVE combat.
OP likely lost a battleship to a lone frigate, because of not understanding how to fight frigates nor how to fit a BS for PVP.
Or worse, OP lost a battleship to rats, and wants to whine instead of learning to faceroll PVE like everyone else. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20270
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Posted - 2014.03.26 15:45:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Yes, anti-ship cannon that works on everything from drones to capital ships with equal efficiency No, it works at different efficiency and peaks out somewhere around large frigate/small destroyer size.
Quote:Big guns are designed to work on big targets and suffer a lot of drawbacks when used on small targets. Small guns work against small targets and they work without any drawbacks. That's the problem here. But they don't work without drawbacks. For smaller-than-intended targets, there are tracking issues that keep the efficiency down; for larger-than-intended targets, they are behind on power compared to the guns that are intended for that target size.
Quote:I think most Eve players understand that No, I don't think that most EVE players are that wrong about how the game works. Or at least I hope not.
Quote:That's why Eve never get more than 50k online players in weekend and went free 2 play. You realise, of course, that it gets more than 50k players online and that it hasn't gone free-to-play?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
77
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Posted - 2014.03.26 15:58:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
If that analogy was correct, you should be able to take down a Archon with a Impairor... Please try this and let me know how that works out for you. |
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Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1574
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Posted - 2014.03.26 15:58:00 -
[71] - Quote
So .. gameplay-wise I think it'd be boring if you could only effectively do something against another ship when using a same-size ship. Being less effective, ok. Battleships are less effective against frigs because their main guns have a harder time hitting. You can still make it hard for the frigates with neuts and drones, for example. A single frigate has it hard against a Battleship due to the high EHP .. or might not even be able to break a Battleship's tank if that BS is active tanked or has a high shield regeneration.
I think that's balanced. If you make Battleships virtually invulnerable against smaller ships, how's that supposed to be balanced?
Lore-wise I don't think the armor of battleships and frigates is of a different quality. A battleship just has more of it, and also more volume you need to damage, hence more HP. The frigate guns still can damage the BS's armor where they hit just as much as they can damage a frigate's armor. There is just, as already said, more armor and ship to damage in the BS case. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
959
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Posted - 2014.03.26 16:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
No.
You're talking about Armor damage threshold vs piercing power/raw damage of a weapon, a menchanic that I've seen in use by some tabletop wargames and (just for example) the Fallout 1 & 2 games.
Meaning, if Your armor has a damage threshold of X an opponent that were to attack that armor would need either a potential damage of greater than X or something (usually) called piercing power that would reduce the armor damage threshold before the actual damage is applied to actually deal damage to the defender.
But: the signature Radius equation is not about that, it deals mainly with the problem of hitting your target at all.
In case Tippia has any corerctions to that piece of text of mine, it would be better to assume he's correct because he almost always is. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Talia Prime
Imperial Militia
5
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Posted - 2014.03.26 16:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
Guys, can't we just leave this troll alone? Look at his post history, all he does is slag off Eve and CCP. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
959
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Posted - 2014.03.26 16:45:00 -
[74] - Quote
Talia Prime wrote:Guys, can't we just leave this troll alone? Look at his post history, all he does is slag off Eve and CCP. I am german, I get an all warm and fuzzy feeling if I can tell someone how he is wrong and i am right. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
2302
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Posted - 2014.03.26 16:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
The game is more balanced now than it's been in a long time. Look at the killboards now, and look at them two or three years ago. Notice anything different?
People stopped flying the same four or five ships. That's the major difference. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
175
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Posted - 2014.03.26 16:49:00 -
[76] - Quote
Op, they already have a forum specifically for terrible ideas by people who don't know what they are talking about. Take this to Features and Ideas. Psychotic Monk for CSM! |
Nerodon
Decapsulation Services Cascade Imminent
2
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Posted - 2014.03.26 16:53:00 -
[77] - Quote
Battleships have way more HP... Where's the problem?
As a frig I use my size and Speed to ignore the BS's guns. As a BS I use my high buffer hitpoints to ignore the frig's guns.
Both are not complete defenses, however.
As a frig if I don't keep transversal up or get scrammed/webbed, I'll die. As a BS if I don't kill the frig and keep getting hit over and over, I'll die.
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Talon Kane
Commando Muad'Dib
17
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Posted - 2014.03.26 17:32:00 -
[78] - Quote
Op, you start a thread with an aggressive manner and when people reply with valid arguments, you insult them. This is not good for the ongoing development of democracy. -½ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain -+. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
171
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Posted - 2014.03.26 17:50:00 -
[79] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
Shoot a tank with a machine gun, you will find that it causes serious issues after enough rounds. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Panhandle Industries
323
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Posted - 2014.03.26 18:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:Eve has combat?
I thought it was just all carebears and ganking and tears. Whats a carebear? I thought it was a giant chat client!
0/10 OP. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
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Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2014.03.27 03:15:00 -
[81] - Quote
The Earth is so big yet my finger can penetrate its crust. Finger OP. |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
276
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
Samwise Everquest wrote:The Earth is so big yet my finger can penetrate its crust. Finger OP.
And how much damage will your finger do?
I invite everyone to look at this old video from 2004.
The system they use is quite elegant and realistic and is quite unlike any other game out there. Simply put, armor is either penetrated or it is not. The end.
Meaning that, just as in real life, you can shoot a rifle at a tank all day long and you will not do anything more than scratch it's paint. However, if you fire a single large anti-tank shell and hit it in the right place you can destroy it in one shot.
Obviously EvE uses the far less realistic but easier to understand hitpoint system, which allows frigates to take down dreadnaughts given time & numbers. Which is entertaining but not very realistic.
If EvE where to use a realistic damage model, things like armor & resists would become exactly that: Resist percentages. Meaning the chance that the armor deflected an incoming shot entirely versus letting it pass through to the structure. So armor points would no longer exist - it would just be a "resistance" rating and a "thickness" rating.
Weapons, on the other hand, would have their damage types and have an additional "penetration" rating. The actual damage numbers would be something that only applied to structure, when and if it was hit.
This would be more complicated but would also add a lot of variety to the combat. For example, kinetic type weapons would undoubtedly have very high penetration values but very low actual damage. Meaning it would be more likely to get through armor, but would do less damage when it did. Explosive would be the inverse, doing a great deal of structure damage but having a very low penetration value. Thermal weapons would be designed to actually strip armor, doing little penetration, average internal damage, but actually reducing the armor thickness with each hit as it slowly vaporizes layers off of it. EM weapons would have an electronic warfare type effect, causing momentary disruptions (1 or 2 seconds) in random modules (weapons, sensors, etc) every time that they penetrated.
Obviously this would require a complete overhaul of EvE's entire combat system, and EvE's playbase is famous for hating any kind of change happening in the system's that they have so expertly gamed to their advantage already.
Anyway, we shall continue using our current model that says that a kid with a baseball bat can, in fact, beat Godzilla to death if he just keeps at it long enough. We may as well learn to just accept that. The sound of the Amarrian heart |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
1597
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:54:00 -
[83] - Quote
The reason it works this way is simple. Magnets. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Tsobai Hashimoto
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
217
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Posted - 2014.03.27 06:57:00 -
[84] - Quote
Obvious you never seen star wars...you know....where one Lil frig took out a super capital.... Jeez
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Luwc
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2014.03.27 07:07:00 -
[85] - Quote
compared to the hit points a battleship has the small weapon damage is more than appopriate.
have you ever tried killing a plated abaddon with a T2 frig ?
have fun shooting it for 15minutes+
also battleships should have neuts. if a dude in a battleships dies to a solo frig he deserves to die.
your point is more than invalid. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
37
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Posted - 2014.03.27 09:38:00 -
[86] - Quote
Luwc wrote: if a dude in a battleships dies to a solo frig he deserves to die.
Yes, because it's his fault the game is unbalanced. In some random mmo class A always kills class B because it can't be countered. Of course it's the fault of the class B player. It's like a chess game that starts with the pieces set that the first player win in 3 moves no matter what. It's the fault of the second player because he lost.
It's the fault of CCP that they made a half done game and can't be bothered to change it. Most players in the game now just rolled over and accepted it the way it is. The rest of 3 million or so just left
On top of everything comes the medieval twisted logic the "veteran" Eve players. I need 15 min to kill a battleship with a frigate there for the game is balanced. They have arguments like: I'm right, you're wrong even if I don't understand what you're saying. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
2631
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Posted - 2014.03.27 09:43:00 -
[87] - Quote
Wait
I can fit a couple of Small T2 lasers to my Apoc when I expect frigate woes and beef up my drone defense and my Cruisers and BCs regularly carry Webbers to make frigates a non-issue.
Is the OP saying that Frigates should be able to carry Large Drones and Large Turrets so they are balanced against Battleships?
I dont want a Frigate to be balanced against a Battleship
That is just silly. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2014.03.27 09:58:00 -
[88] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote:The Earth is so big yet my finger can penetrate its crust. Finger OP. And how much damage will your finger do? I invite everyone to look at this old video from 2004. The system they use is quite elegant and realistic and is quite unlike any other game out there. Simply put, armor is either penetrated or it is not. The end.
The weapon systems in EVE cannot be compared to RL ballistics. Lasers and antimatter are gonna inflict some damage no matter what the size of the object they are shooting at. This isnt just some metallic mass hitting another metallic mass. Look at EFPs for example (I think that's what they were called.) If i remember correctly, all it is copper that forms into a cone. It is able to penetrate our armored tanks with ease.
tl:dr you are not taking into consideration how advanced the weapon systems are in EvE IE we aren't shooting bullets. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
38
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Posted - 2014.03.27 10:17:00 -
[89] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote: Is the OP saying that Frigates should be able to carry Large Drones and Large Turrets so they are balanced against Battleships?
News flash, they already exist in the game, Stealth bombers. Frigate size ships that can fit battleship weapons. It's not that frigates can kill large ships with small unbalanced weapons they even pack battleship size weapons.
And in 3 sec somebody will come with a childish argument that Battleships can mount small weapons too. But if the small weapons are the answer to everything why put large ships in the game on top of that with broken mechanics.
The only way to fix this is to change the damage calculation from
1 * weapon dmg to dmg adjustment * weapon dmg.
The dmg adjustment should never be larger than 1 and it should be equal weapon signature/target signature |
Maekchu
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
24
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Posted - 2014.03.27 10:32:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tacomaco: I think you need a bit more PvP experience under your skin, before you can make a qualified argument about anything related to PvP.
EFTing ain't enough. :D |
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