Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it. |
RomeStar
Empire Investments Logistics
416
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Please move on folks nothing to see here people nothing to see....... Signatured removed, CCP Phantom |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
2802
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
RomeStar wrote:Please move on folks nothing to see here people nothing to see....... I see. Another of those threads where the original post is missing. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Talon Kane
Commando Muad'Dib
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
*Gathers around a dead thread like a fly gathers around dead meat* -½ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain -+. |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
209
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Someone lost a battleship to frigate can flipper? "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
You realize smaller weapons do less damage than bigger weapons?
You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
That is the balance you are seeking. Whether I slap a girly man or a obese neckbeard, they will receive the same force from my hand (damage) but because of their size (EPH,) it will effect them differently. |
Doireen Kaundur
373
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Eve has combat?
I thought it was just all carebears and ganking and tears. Minimizing the cost of replacing implants.
|
Sevendeadly Sins
Meatshield Bastards The Bastards.
104
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:Eve has combat?
I thought it was just all carebears and ganking and tears. No, eve doesn't have any combat.
The op was just high on mindflood, nothing to see here.
http://www.zombo.com |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce.....
You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed...
But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate.
Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
|
Karen Avioras
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
321
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:When in fact it can't be destroyed...
Not with that attitude |
|
The Complainitor Listen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
It's CCP dude, what do you expect, rocket scientists ? |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
453
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges. Guns are simply the delivery method of the charge. They have inherent damage mods, but they are not the device dealing the damage, only the means of delivering the charge from point A to point B.
|
Hal Morsh
The Witch's Hammer
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
You DO realize the gun barrels on frigates are about the size of a person right? you can obviously tank a smaller ship much easier, but the fact is a smaller ship can still chip away at a bigger ship. The fact that a bigger ship can't hit a smaller ship makes sense anyways without the right equipment. I enjoy a good session of mining. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2360
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
Considering those measurements are literally in units of distance, its much more appropriate to make comparisons to actual spherical objects, in which case it makes perfect sense. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
272
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
So what you are saying is that it makes sense that a battleship has a hard time shooting a frigate but can still eventually win, but it doesn't make sense that the frigate can eventually chip away at a battleship and win? I see kinda what you are getting at, but it wouldn't work like that in something like Eve because then what reason would anyone in their right mind fly anything smaller than the largest ship they can fly?
In a battleship, you can still kill a frig, though you miss a lot. In a frig, you can still kill a battleship, though it takes a while.
Without that last bit, the balance you are seeking becomes a lack thereof, as each progression of ship size obsoletes any instance of the previous size. With the way it works now, even a frigate still has use and lethality in a universe with battleships. The real world and Eve operate with a separate set of parameters and rules...this is both intentional and necessary. Eve is not the only game that has to be set up like this...why would I waste resources on riflemen in a command and conquer game if they can't even put a dent in a tank. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
22
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges.
It's not about damage types and damage resistances. It's about the nominal damage done based on weapon signature and targets signature.
- big weapon signature shooting at small targets signature. Small change to hit to none and very bad damage when it hits. - small weapon signature shooting at big targets signature. Always always hit and always does 100% damage. That's wrong.
How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
The Complainitor Listen wrote: It's CCP dude, what do you expect, rocket scientists ?
Well I don't expect some complex "rock scissors paper" combat system but at least a 2 way system. Big ship balance to small ship, small ship balance to big ship. What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back?
I don't expect some complex combat system with class balance like in World of Warcraft where they balance the combat based on 4-5 combat elements. Even more simple to understand. You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?
Just make small ship to big ship balance and the other way around. Who knows maybe the frigate players might try some bigger ships...
For now Eve combat is small billiard balls shooting at big billiard balls and that's about it...
|
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2365
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
Are you saying that in real life people tend to miss the stationary wall with their wild swings of the bat?
Or are you saying battleships need some kind of "wall"-like resistance to damage, above and beyond their massive HP ? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Nalia White
Tencus
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:So what you are saying is that it makes sense that a battleship has a hard time shooting a frigate but can still eventually win, but it doesn't make sense that the frigate can eventually chip away at a battleship and win? I see kinda what you are getting at, but it wouldn't work like that in something like Eve because then what reason would anyone in their right mind fly anything smaller than the largest ship they can fly?
In a battleship, you can still kill a frig, though you miss a lot. In a frig, you can still kill a battleship, though it takes a while.
Without that last bit, the balance you are seeking becomes a lack thereof, as each progression of ship size obsoletes any instance of the previous size. With the way it works now, even a frigate still has use and lethality in a universe with battleships. The real world and Eve operate with a separate set of parameters and rules...this is both intentional and necessary. Eve is not the only game that has to be set up like this...why would I waste resources on riflemen in a command and conquer game if they can't even put a dent in a tank.
power plant, ore reffinery, barracks, Vehicle Factory --> tanks. why the **** would you build infantry in a C&C game? ^^
ontopic: OP definitely lost his battleship to a frigate :) |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1140
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it. just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating. |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1140
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man.... i assume when your shooting this tank, metal comes into contact with metal, yes? then it can be destroyed, you just need ALOT OF AMMO and time, because you have to chew through the armor bit by bit.
now if you using something like low powered handgun with 9mm rounds, no youll never destroy, and thats akin to a SINGLE frigate shooting at a battlesip with meta 0 guns, it cant break the passive shield regen of the battleship. |
|
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
471
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Well I don't expect some complex "rock scissors paper" combat system but at least a 2 way system. Big ship balance to small ship, small ship balance to big ship. What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back?
I don't expect some complex combat system with class balance like in World of Warcraft where they balance the combat based on 4-5 combat elements. Even more simple to understand. You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?
Just make small ship to big ship balance and the other way around. Who knows maybe the frigate players might try some bigger ships...
For now Eve combat is small billiard balls shooting at big billiard balls and that's about it...
Never heard of Mobile Depots, targeting mods or anti-frigate weapons?
The battleship can easily refit to spec agaianst frigates, the frigate has a hard time refitting to do extra damage against the battleship. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2366
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back? Walls don't fight back either. Buff walls.
Quote:You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?
You're suggesting that frigates always win vs battleships, which is nonsense. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
456
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges.
It's not about damage types and damage resistances. It's about the nominal damage done based on weapon signature and targets signature. - big weapon signature shooting at small targets signature. Small change to hit to none and very bad damage when it hits. - small weapon signature shooting at big targets signature. Always always hit and always does 100% damage. That's wrong. How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
A small weapon tracking a larger object is always going to have a higher potential to hit, there is nothing wrong with that it is basic physics.
As for application If you took a 5cm bouncy ball and threw it at a 10m Squared brick wall the entire bouncy ball has a very high chance to hit the wall with its full capacity, even if your aim is not perfect and you don't hit center mass.
If you then took that 10m wall and threw it at the bouncy ball only 5cm of that wall is going to make contact. It doesn't matter that the wall is 10m square the target is only 5cm and thus only 5cm of that wall is going to come into contact.
Im not sure what is so hard to comprehend.
If I fire a 40m shell at a 400m target all 40m's of that shell can contact. If I fire a 400m shell at a 40m target only 40m of that 400m shell can make contact. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Stealth bombers. Frigate size ships with big guns...
The problem is very simple..
-big weapons vs small targets have drawback to the point they aren't usable. Tracking speed and bad hits if there are any hits. This part of the mechanic is ok. -small weapons vs big targets, no drawbacks. Full damage, always hits.
Ok, the dps is small but that's why they are small weapons on small cheap ships. There is no difference in dps between hitting a medium size ships or a large size ship
That's what I'm saying, if you use a weapon against the wrong target there should be a drawback, not just for big weapon vs small target but for small weapon vs big targets. Without this the balance only goes one way. |
Ruvin Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
You wont get down a wall with a baseball bat , but be sure with a small hammer you will ,takes a while but doable . Also a rifleman is bad example , but a light fast vehicle can get a tank down even if he needs some time shooting at it . |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
222
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:51:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2371
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE.
There are no direct analogues in Eve (as in actual small guns), but Eve battleships do have many weapons systems and tactics to combat (and kill) small ships, and I'm not talking about comedy fits. The decision to not give battleships a separate line of point defense turrets is part of the design, and the lack of such an analogous system in-game is not in and of itself a flaw or problem, but this is typically the best that people can come up with when futilely advocating for such a change.
Furthermore, if a battleship did decide to shoot such a small craft with its main gun, it would score catastrophic damage with a lucky or well-aimed hit. Its much the same in Eve. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
277
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
As has been addressed already, your topic is a fail of logic.
Yes a small machine gun can take out a tank, but it will take a while and use a lot of ammo. A hand gun could also in theory take out a tank, but usually the tank will just run your ass over before you can do any real damage. i.e. and ibis shooting a titan. Eventually the ibis can kill a titan, if it doesn't regenerate, but the titan just needs one hit which it will get eventually and the ibis dies.
Given time, and unlimited ammo/energy you can pretty much destroy anything.
basicly what you are describing is a big object, lets go with a huge tank, attempting to fire its single cannon at an object running around it faster then the gunner can swing the gun around. As long as the object keeps moving in such a way as the gunner can't predict where its going, the gun will miss. But eventually, the object will screw up and get blown to bits.
Now add that both are computer controlled, the smaller object will mose too fast for the large one to hit dead on, but it will occationally nick it with its ammo.
Now lets flip it. You as the smaller object firing say a sub machine gun at the tank will almost always hit it, no matter how fast you run around it. why? because it has a huge area to hit. and its moving way slower then you are. and you can easily predict where you will hit it.
Now computer control and it will be nearly impossible for you to miss. And your weapon will dish out the same ammout of damnage if you keep in range, and will RARELY miss.
EvE combat works fine when compaired to real world physics. Small weapons and boats disable or blow up large ones often, its just that if they screw up.. blam. |
Victor Andall
Complexes and Abaddons
296
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?
Andall Combat Tournaments - on hiatus. Contact for more information. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
222
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
Batelle wrote:and I'm not talking about comedy fits.
Lol, the first BC fit I ever made as a noob was with half my high slots having small guns to shoot frigs...
I agree there are some tools at a battleship's disposal, but they seem woefully inadequate. They are obviously contrived for "balance" and not reflexive of sound military doctrine. I know most people hate the idea, but I think realism can go a long way to improving a space game. |
|
Tipsy Titteron
Do You Even Irony Broew
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
The best thing about the OPs many flaws in his logic is that he compares a small hightech interstellar warship and a big hightech interstellar warship to being a wooden raft with small guns against aircraft carriers with missiles.
It would be more like having a frigate class warship with smaller cannons and a smaller load of missiles against an aircraft carrier that has the ability to bomb the **** out of the frigate.
The frigate might be smaller, less sturdy, etc, but it can still punch a hole into the aircraft carrier, because, its guns are powerfull. Now that we've all agreed the OP made a mistake and posted his splurg where it didnt belong, lets let the thread die. |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
569
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:23:00 -
[32] - Quote
You are trying to apply real world logic to science fiction, this never ends well.
Yes in the real world, a zodiac with a small machine gun could probably never, ever sink an aircraft carrier. However from a gameplay mechanics standpoint making ships IMMUNE TO PVP is never a good thing. So battleships should just be impervious to damage from anything smaller than what.. a cruiser?
This maybe satisfies your 'desire for realism' but does not make gameplay 'more fun' .. it makes it more boring for both parties, since where the was an amazing battle to be had before (say between a battleship and a gang of 3-4 players) there is now a whole lot of NOTHING since they will just ignore each other.
It's like people who complain that the planets don't orbit, or that their ships steer like a boat. Nope, it's not realistic but it is the way EVE works. Making the planets spin around does not directly create more 'fun' for anybody or create any new gameplay.
EVE is not meant to be a real world physics simulator, it is fantasy/sf with its own fantasy/sf physics and reality.
Did you think Star Wars sucked because laser swords are make believe as well? |
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
93
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:As has been addressed already, your topic is a fail of logic.
Given time, and unlimited ammo/energy you can pretty much destroy anything.
only in games.
|
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better.
Yea, there was a time everyone believed the Earth was flat. You could even fall of the edge if you walk to far. Let's not think about the game, let's pretend everything is fine. Especially if the change means you have to get a bigger ship and you don't know how to make money...
Eve might be different from other games but the mindless fanboyz are all the same, "the game is perfect". Next major patch they change it, oh, wait then it had to be broken.
I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet because reducing the effectiveness of smaller weapons against bigger targets would mean pvp needs bigger ships and more of the specialized small ships to counter the big ones like some bigger stealth bombers.
Oh, well, CCP does what they can, like buffing mining by nerfing refining.... |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
569
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
The thing is you are arguing for realism, not balance.
Realism =/= balance. |
Victor Andall
Complexes and Abaddons
299
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Victor Andall wrote:TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better. Yea, there was a time everyone believed the Earth was flat. You could even fall of the edge if you walk to far. Let's not think about the game, let's pretend everything is fine.
Sorry, I didn't realize it was you, Mr. Galilei. My apologies. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?
Andall Combat Tournaments - on hiatus. Contact for more information. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20259
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:54:00 -
[37] - Quote
*cough* GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
184
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
If you watch any of the Star-Trek series, the Enterprise also had a hard time hitting smaller ships |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
260
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 20:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
Or you could say i could unload my pistol into that warehouse over there, if i missed i'd shoot myself tbh. then taking your 150mm cannon and aiming for an ant on the hill over there.
Make sense?
Besides the smaller weapons have limitations on range and raw dps. and seriously if you can bring 80 guys to take on a battleships with noobshiops (bestfleetcomp) you deserve to win. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 21:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jill Chastot wrote: Or you could say i could unload my pistol into that warehouse over there, if i missed i'd shoot myself tbh. then taking your 150mm cannon and aiming for an ant on the hill over there.
Make sense?
It's not about missing the warehouse, it's about demolishing the building. How long do you think you have to shoot at a building with a pistol to bring it down? You're just trying to provide a real world example for some broken mechanic from Eve. You can't do that, it doesn't exist.
Victor Andall wrote: Sorry, I didn't realize it was you, Mr. Galilei. My apologies.
And this is what a 10 year old kid answers when he doesn't understand what he reads. Just ask again if you don't understand, maybe I can help you. If it's too hard you can try again later. |
|
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
857
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nalia White wrote:
power plant, ore reffinery, barracks, Vehicle Factory --> tanks. why the **** would you build infantry in a C&C game? ^^
ontopic: OP definitely lost his battleship to a frigate :)
If Unsuccessful at Everything has taught us anything it is the correct response to this occurence and this OP
LOL.
PS OP not every ship in game is balanced for 1v1 because this is a fleet based game. Every ship and every fleet has an engagement envelope. Fighting things outside this envelope is bad. For example a Pilgrim will quickly turn off the weapons and tank of a lazor boat but will likely die easily to an ASB rocket Hawk a neither the tank nor weapons of the hawk require cap. There is no way to balance the hundreds of ships so they all have a chance against any other ship and the existance of hard counters is part of the metagame and fleet PVP. What you are asking for is not even desirable even if it were possible. Every ship can be killed solo by something and so whatever killed you easily can easily be killed by other ships. Generally battleships are poor at solo pvp and are indeed designed to be so. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
31
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:12:00 -
[42] - Quote
In our age, the modern tank guns (like the Rheinmetall L55 120mm on the M1A1 Abrams, Type 90, Leopard 2) could penetrate 500-800 mm steel armor depend on the loaded shell. You can imagine what could do a gun with such or even bigger caliber (in EVE small hybrids have 75-150 mm, small projectiles 125-280 mm) in space 20k years in the future. And dont even mention the laser turrets, or blasters: "Antimatter Charge S Antimatter Charge S Consists of two components: a shell of titanium and a core of antimatter atoms suspended in plasma state. Railguns launch the shell directly, while particle blasters pump the plasma into a cyclotron and process the plasma into a bolt that is then fired."
So you're wrong, small gun can do its damage on bigger ships and slowly kill it, if big ship not tanked properly. |
ashley Eoner
300
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:So what you are saying is that it makes sense that a battleship has a hard time shooting a frigate but can still eventually win, but it doesn't make sense that the frigate can eventually chip away at a battleship and win? I see kinda what you are getting at, but it wouldn't work like that in something like Eve because then what reason would anyone in their right mind fly anything smaller than the largest ship they can fly?
In a battleship, you can still kill a frig, though you miss a lot. In a frig, you can still kill a battleship, though it takes a while.
Without that last bit, the balance you are seeking becomes a lack thereof, as each progression of ship size obsoletes any instance of the previous size. With the way it works now, even a frigate still has use and lethality in a universe with battleships. The real world and Eve operate with a separate set of parameters and rules...this is both intentional and necessary. Eve is not the only game that has to be set up like this...why would I waste resources on riflemen in a command and conquer game if they can't even put a dent in a tank. Taffy 3. Look it up. A handful of tincan destroyers and destroyer escorts punched the Japanese center fleet so hard that they (including the might Yamato) retreated..
Quote: After the battle, Samuel B. Roberts received the nickname "the destroyer escort that fought like a battleship." A destroyer escort was basically one step away from a rowboat..
EDIT :
Last stand of the tin can sailors is an AMAZING book about the encounter and I highly recommend it. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2943
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 02:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
OP posted some advice in another thread, that the best way to move 25bil+ in blueprints was in a shuttle, because they warp [gate] cloaked and their signature means nothing can hit them anyway.
You chaps are on page 3 of biting a troll, or someone who lost a faction battleship to someone in a T2 frigate after they tried to pay-to-win.
Also Tippia's link clearly refutes the notion that in "real world" logic a small craft can't destroy a larger one.
In Eve, your average frigate puts out more damage than a modern-day battleship. To suggest therefore that it can't damage a battleship is to show how absurd his strawman of handguns and wooden rafts is. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2943
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 02:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
Oh, and in Pearl Harbour loads of large ships got wrecked by small nimble craft called airplanes. It was total bullcrap man, they were like no where near the same size and yet they were hitting for full damage. But the ships couldn't properly shoot back because AA is horrendously inaccurate and has a wide AOE/sig radius.
CCP pls. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Divine Entervention
The Advent of Faith Against ALL Anomalies
236
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 03:12:00 -
[46] - Quote
Dude's on jetski's with armor piercing shoulder launched missles could sink an aircraft carrier Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
541
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 04:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
I don't know if this has been said already, and I'm not about to read through 3 pages of this, so I'll just drop my 2 ISK then leave.
Yes a battleship is going to hit a frig at full damage if the frig not moving and at the battleships optimal. The faster angular velocity and the farther the frig is away from the battleships optimal the less damage the battleship is going to do. Yes if you are in a T1 frig hull and T1 guns you aren't going to break the active tank of a battleship and are going to take forever to chew through the EHP of a passive tanked battleship. If you could then the frig would be massively OP compared to the battleship.
This isn't WoW, you aren't designed to be able to kill any ship out there. It normally takes a frig gang to take down a battleship, like it would realistically. No this game isn't designed around solo play, yes you are supposed to pick your fights, no you aren't going to win every fight, yes the guy who killed you was probably fit up for anti-frig (or you were going, for some reason, straight at him and/or were at near 0 velocity).
Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager |
Pew Terror
Green Associates TITANS.
172
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 04:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
Really hope OP is making a joke. If not i'd suggest every idea you ever have not being told anyone, written in a notebook then eaten by some animal. Then burn the poop. |
Bloodmyst Ranwar
War Toys Inc
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
@ OP, you don't really "PvP" much do you?
Because I don't think someone who PvP's often would agree with you (I'd be surprised if there were). |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
506
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:03:00 -
[50] - Quote
Unless you get more detailed damage models (currently all ships have a single big hit box that is teired into shield then armor then hull) this is just the way it will be. |
|
Bruce Kemp
Suddenly taken over
106
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....
In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.
Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.
A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?
If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.
Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.
You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.
I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.
So you have been playing EVE for a month and you think you know it all.......RIGHT.
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1397
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 07:31:00 -
[52] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Tacomaco wrote: How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.
Are you saying that in real life people tend to miss the stationary wall with their wild swings of the bat? i guess he mentions real life physics.... You know: using wooden arrows against iron armor and all this stuff.
In Eve online you just need more arrows. In RL you only will lose your arrows.
Or story about WW2 tanks when russians put bigger guns on T-34-85 to be able to hit german armored tanks The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Tanuki Kittybeta
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 07:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
@op
Lolwhat |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
33
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 08:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote: Because I don't think someone who PvP's often would agree with you (I'd be surprised if there were).
Of course they wouldn't agree with me. This change means you'll have to match the enemy ISK for ISK because the smaller ships loose their effectiveness against bigger ones the same way the big ships are ineffective against small ones.
What frigate flying PvPers would want to do that? It means you would have to earn some ISK to get bigger ships if you want to kill bigger ships.
Anyone can risk some frigates and destroyers in PvP but are the frigate PvP-ers willing to take a Battlecruiser or Battleships for some pvp rounds? Of course not, it's risky
As I said I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet. This would lead to PvP with all ship classe, more expensive ships destroyed, more output from the industry, more Plex sold for ISK.... |
Space Wanderer
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 09:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE.
Drones anyone?
Seriously, all battleships I have used, even caldari, have drone bays and bandwidth large enough to hold at least a full flight of light drones, more often two or three flights.
Wha was the complaint, again? |
Qen Tye
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 10:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:Did you think Star Wars sucked because laser swords are make believe as well?
i lol'ed
/thread
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't |
Remiel Pollard
Stirling Iron Society A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2797
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 10:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
Oh noes! He made a valid argument! Quick, insult him by calling him a fanboy and insinuate that if he's got less isk than me he is inferior!
I've killed plenty of frigates with bigger ships. I've killed plenty of bigger ships with frigates. I frequently fight outgunned and outmatched. I win some, I lose some, I make some stupid mistakes and some ballsy moves that pay off but, I do quite well overall because I've learned how to fight. Actually, scratch that, I'm still learning. We all are, except for a few like you that think they already know it all. I laugh every time someone tries to make it sound like it's some paper-scissors-rock thing. Every time, because of the wide variety of possible variables in any given combat situation.
This is the bottom line. If you're struggling with a concept of PVP, you are doing something wrong. This is not a bad thing, it just means you have something to learn. Seeking some help from a PVP'er might pay off more than trying to 'convince' CCP that the mechanics are flawed and need to be changed. That'd be pretty much like trying to change the road rules because you failed your driver test. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Stirling Iron Society A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2797
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 11:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote: Because I don't think someone who PvP's often would agree with you (I'd be surprised if there were).
Of course they wouldn't agree with me. This change means you'll have to match the enemy ISK for ISK because the smaller ships loose their effectiveness against bigger ones the same way the big ships are ineffective against small ones. What frigate flying PvPers would want to do that? It means you would have to earn some ISK to get bigger ships if you want to kill bigger ships. Anyone can risk some frigates and destroyers in PvP but are the frigate PvP-ers willing to take a Battlecruiser or Battleships for some pvp rounds? Of course not, it's risky As I said I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet. This would lead to PvP with all ship classe, more expensive ships destroyed, more output from the industry, more Plex sold for ISK....
We don't agree with you because you're wrong. I've fought 'isk-to-isk' and won, I've fought above my weight and below it, and won. And lost. PVP isn't about the ship, it's about the pilot. That's why it's called PVP, not SVS. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Stirling Iron Society A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2799
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 11:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
This is a little bit against the rules, but this is my solo record. These are all kills and losses where the killing party has been purely solo. On there, you'll find mostly the Ishkur and other frigates because I ENJOY frigates, it's much more risky. Anyone with a little experience could pop my Ishkur with a bigger ship and the right setup. Hell, there's a myriad of different ways I have been killed - neuts, multiple webs, blobs, you name it it's killed me. Plenty of bigger ships dropping my like a stone. But, you'll also see me using the Nightmare, Gnosis, Cynabal, Machariel, Brutix Navy, and Cyclone to name a few.
Your argument is invalid because that killboard, and many others like it from other players, proves your assertions wrong. L2P. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Stu Pendisdick
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 11:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
ITT: Another poor soul who has confused Real Life with a game.
So sad.
|
|
Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 12:14:00 -
[61] - Quote
Should Industrial ships be able to solo battleships?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6so9AT4UydQ
:)
It's eve bro. Bigger wallet, bigger ship, and more sp doesn't give you an autowin. There is a counter to everything, L2 not get checkmated so easily. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
34
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
This is perfect example why the balancing of small weapons vs large targets is need. This video contains the exact exploit I'm talking about. Battleship killed with 1 small blaster! In staid of an industrial ship it could have been a frigate. This is the literal sinking of the battleship with the machine-gun.
That's what un-blanced combat looks like.
Not to mention the other absurd exploits in that fit. Stacking armor repairs without any penalty. Stacking cap recharge without any penalty and so on. Basically stacking repair rate and cap recharge on a 2mil med ship to tank a battleship. Players that exploit this part of the game like it, who wouldn't like it? But it's wrong.
In simple terms that anyone would understand this looks like WoW character that endlessly refills his hit points and mana without any problem.
Players that are around for some time in the game like to think about Eve that it's a complex game and hard (indirectly making them good players). Complex? Yes, player driven economy, politics and so on. Hard? what's hard the ship to ship combat? It's not hard, it's completely broken. Just take the right ship+fit and get ok exploiting the game.
Simply put the Eve combat in World of Warcraft terms looks like this: 2 classes can fight, the other 8 are just targets that can't fight back. Who would play something like this. Well probably 30-40k players would still play it and think it's very good.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20269
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:This is perfect example why the balancing of small weapons vs large targets is need. This video contains the exact exploit I'm talking about. Battleship killed with 1 small blaster! In staid of an industrial ship it could have been a frigate. This is the literal sinking of the battleship with the machine-gun. No. It's the literal sinking of the battleship with the anti-ship cannon. For your scenario to play out, you'd have to take that battleship into Dust.
It's not an exploit. It's using a weapon for its intended purpose. It is also an extremely incompetent battleship pilot.
Quote:That's what un-blanced combat looks like. No, it's how balanced combat looks like: when your ship does not guarantee you anything, especially when mixed with incompetence, and when bigger isn't automatically better. That way, you can't pay your way to victory, nor can you just rely on your skill queue to do the work for you. You actually have to do a large part of the job yourself. It means you are always at risk, rather than in some massively unbalanced state of always on top.
Quote:Not to mention the other absurd exploits in that fit. You keep using that word. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
Quote:In simple terms that anyone would understand this looks like WoW character that endlessly refills his hit points and mana without any problem. It's not endless, you know that right? And you know that any WoW comparison is inherently incorrect since WoW operates on an utterly hateful, lazy, and obsolete bigger-is-better design?
Quote:Simply put the Eve combat in World of Warcraft terms looks like this: 2 classes can fight, the other 8 are just targets that can't fight back. Yeah, no. That's not how EVE actually works. It is how WoW works, though, where smaller stuff is flat out forbidden to do any damage to the large stuff, just so you can have a simplistic one-directional power curve that creeps endlessly upwards, obsoleting old stuff as it goes. EVE uses the much more elegant and balanced design of having hard and soft counters to everything, and no real power levels. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Gregor Parud
343
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
OP wants power creep and "bigger is better", or he just wants to troll. either way, it's not worth a serious discussion.
Get out.
|
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
309
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
I guess it's easy to rag on the OP - initially. However, I think there is a point hovering in his post somewhere. It has to do with "form follows function". You can see the absurdity more with frigates, or dessies against industrials. My example would be to take your favorite Humvee and ram it into a bulldozer. See who gets off the lightest.
The purpose of a bulldozer (for instance) requires it be constructed with a certain density, size, etc., with no regard as to whether it's being fired upon, or not. However, hit the magic of EVE and industrial vehicles suddenly become aluminum foil. It's as though the "physics" required to handle metric tons of space dirt don't transfer to managing any other forces in physics.
I'd go so far as to suggest ramming a Caterpillar with an M1 Abrams would give the tank owner a heart attack at the thought of it. You look at the sheer size and density of these major mining "vessels," or earth movers today (compared to their modern armored counterparts) and you really have to scratch your head at the - extrapolations CCP designers have employed.
Getting back to the game where reality has no application (but where convenient to the programmers), when you find an entire game population flock to a particular kind of ship as THE SHIP, while a particular ship is abandoned en masse as THE SHIP THAT SUCKS, you've definitely got an imbalance that could be viewed as a material chokepoint - chokepoints being a game designing cardinal sin.
However, also, it must be said - Even though with the advent of T3 cruisers and the all but complete abandonment of battleships as being fail boats, there isn't a lot of "fleet" fighting going on. Small groups in a fleet, yes. However, fleets of the size where the various types of ships are called together to perform the myriad functions available don't seem to be happening much at all.
Is this a failure on the part of game design? Or, is it a failure in terms of how the playerbase "socializes"? Has the "trust no one" aspect of the game revealed itself in this leaving the player base to nitpick over game mechanics and individual component stats, replacing the language and interactions surrounding full-fleet functionality?
(Is this why scads of more intelligent players have abandoned the game leaving it to be populated by two-dimensionally thinking miner gankers?) Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:33:00 -
[66] - Quote
Dude, antimatter will destroy **** no matter how little you use.
Only rustbuckets use projectiles, and they contain plasma and ****. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 15:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. It's the literal sinking of the battleship with the anti-ship cannon.
Yes, anti-ship cannon that works on everything from drones to capital ships with equal efficiency
Big guns are designed to work on big targets and suffer a lot of drawbacks when used on small targets. Small guns work against small targets and they work without any drawbacks. That's the problem here.
I think most Eve players understand that but don't really want to admit it because they like to use cheap ships and cheap fits and be equally efficient against any targets. All of you know what parts of Eve are broken and you know how to avoid and exploit it. That's why you can use a cargo ships with a machine gun to destroy a battleship.
That's why Eve never get more than 50k online players in weekend and went free 2 play. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2558
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 15:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
ITT: OP doesn't understand EVE combat.
OP likely lost a battleship to a lone frigate, because of not understanding how to fight frigates nor how to fit a BS for PVP.
Or worse, OP lost a battleship to rats, and wants to whine instead of learning to faceroll PVE like everyone else. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20270
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 15:45:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Yes, anti-ship cannon that works on everything from drones to capital ships with equal efficiency No, it works at different efficiency and peaks out somewhere around large frigate/small destroyer size.
Quote:Big guns are designed to work on big targets and suffer a lot of drawbacks when used on small targets. Small guns work against small targets and they work without any drawbacks. That's the problem here. But they don't work without drawbacks. For smaller-than-intended targets, there are tracking issues that keep the efficiency down; for larger-than-intended targets, they are behind on power compared to the guns that are intended for that target size.
Quote:I think most Eve players understand that No, I don't think that most EVE players are that wrong about how the game works. Or at least I hope not.
Quote:That's why Eve never get more than 50k online players in weekend and went free 2 play. You realise, of course, that it gets more than 50k players online and that it hasn't gone free-to-play?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 15:58:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
If that analogy was correct, you should be able to take down a Archon with a Impairor... Please try this and let me know how that works out for you. |
|
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1574
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 15:58:00 -
[71] - Quote
So .. gameplay-wise I think it'd be boring if you could only effectively do something against another ship when using a same-size ship. Being less effective, ok. Battleships are less effective against frigs because their main guns have a harder time hitting. You can still make it hard for the frigates with neuts and drones, for example. A single frigate has it hard against a Battleship due to the high EHP .. or might not even be able to break a Battleship's tank if that BS is active tanked or has a high shield regeneration.
I think that's balanced. If you make Battleships virtually invulnerable against smaller ships, how's that supposed to be balanced?
Lore-wise I don't think the armor of battleships and frigates is of a different quality. A battleship just has more of it, and also more volume you need to damage, hence more HP. The frigate guns still can damage the BS's armor where they hit just as much as they can damage a frigate's armor. There is just, as already said, more armor and ship to damage in the BS case. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
959
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.
No.
You're talking about Armor damage threshold vs piercing power/raw damage of a weapon, a menchanic that I've seen in use by some tabletop wargames and (just for example) the Fallout 1 & 2 games.
Meaning, if Your armor has a damage threshold of X an opponent that were to attack that armor would need either a potential damage of greater than X or something (usually) called piercing power that would reduce the armor damage threshold before the actual damage is applied to actually deal damage to the defender.
But: the signature Radius equation is not about that, it deals mainly with the problem of hitting your target at all.
In case Tippia has any corerctions to that piece of text of mine, it would be better to assume he's correct because he almost always is. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Talia Prime
Imperial Militia
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
Guys, can't we just leave this troll alone? Look at his post history, all he does is slag off Eve and CCP. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
959
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:45:00 -
[74] - Quote
Talia Prime wrote:Guys, can't we just leave this troll alone? Look at his post history, all he does is slag off Eve and CCP. I am german, I get an all warm and fuzzy feeling if I can tell someone how he is wrong and i am right. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
2302
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
The game is more balanced now than it's been in a long time. Look at the killboards now, and look at them two or three years ago. Notice anything different?
People stopped flying the same four or five ships. That's the major difference. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:49:00 -
[76] - Quote
Op, they already have a forum specifically for terrible ideas by people who don't know what they are talking about. Take this to Features and Ideas. Psychotic Monk for CSM! |
Nerodon
Decapsulation Services Cascade Imminent
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:53:00 -
[77] - Quote
Battleships have way more HP... Where's the problem?
As a frig I use my size and Speed to ignore the BS's guns. As a BS I use my high buffer hitpoints to ignore the frig's guns.
Both are not complete defenses, however.
As a frig if I don't keep transversal up or get scrammed/webbed, I'll die. As a BS if I don't kill the frig and keep getting hit over and over, I'll die.
|
Talon Kane
Commando Muad'Dib
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 17:32:00 -
[78] - Quote
Op, you start a thread with an aggressive manner and when people reply with valid arguments, you insult them. This is not good for the ongoing development of democracy. -½ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain -+. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
171
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 17:50:00 -
[79] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
Shoot a tank with a machine gun, you will find that it causes serious issues after enough rounds. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Panhandle Industries
323
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 18:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:Eve has combat?
I thought it was just all carebears and ganking and tears. Whats a carebear? I thought it was a giant chat client!
0/10 OP. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
|
Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 03:15:00 -
[81] - Quote
The Earth is so big yet my finger can penetrate its crust. Finger OP. |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
276
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
Samwise Everquest wrote:The Earth is so big yet my finger can penetrate its crust. Finger OP.
And how much damage will your finger do?
I invite everyone to look at this old video from 2004.
The system they use is quite elegant and realistic and is quite unlike any other game out there. Simply put, armor is either penetrated or it is not. The end.
Meaning that, just as in real life, you can shoot a rifle at a tank all day long and you will not do anything more than scratch it's paint. However, if you fire a single large anti-tank shell and hit it in the right place you can destroy it in one shot.
Obviously EvE uses the far less realistic but easier to understand hitpoint system, which allows frigates to take down dreadnaughts given time & numbers. Which is entertaining but not very realistic.
If EvE where to use a realistic damage model, things like armor & resists would become exactly that: Resist percentages. Meaning the chance that the armor deflected an incoming shot entirely versus letting it pass through to the structure. So armor points would no longer exist - it would just be a "resistance" rating and a "thickness" rating.
Weapons, on the other hand, would have their damage types and have an additional "penetration" rating. The actual damage numbers would be something that only applied to structure, when and if it was hit.
This would be more complicated but would also add a lot of variety to the combat. For example, kinetic type weapons would undoubtedly have very high penetration values but very low actual damage. Meaning it would be more likely to get through armor, but would do less damage when it did. Explosive would be the inverse, doing a great deal of structure damage but having a very low penetration value. Thermal weapons would be designed to actually strip armor, doing little penetration, average internal damage, but actually reducing the armor thickness with each hit as it slowly vaporizes layers off of it. EM weapons would have an electronic warfare type effect, causing momentary disruptions (1 or 2 seconds) in random modules (weapons, sensors, etc) every time that they penetrated.
Obviously this would require a complete overhaul of EvE's entire combat system, and EvE's playbase is famous for hating any kind of change happening in the system's that they have so expertly gamed to their advantage already.
Anyway, we shall continue using our current model that says that a kid with a baseball bat can, in fact, beat Godzilla to death if he just keeps at it long enough. We may as well learn to just accept that. The sound of the Amarrian heart |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
1597
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:54:00 -
[83] - Quote
The reason it works this way is simple. Magnets. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Tsobai Hashimoto
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
217
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:57:00 -
[84] - Quote
Obvious you never seen star wars...you know....where one Lil frig took out a super capital.... Jeez
|
Luwc
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 07:07:00 -
[85] - Quote
compared to the hit points a battleship has the small weapon damage is more than appopriate.
have you ever tried killing a plated abaddon with a T2 frig ?
have fun shooting it for 15minutes+
also battleships should have neuts. if a dude in a battleships dies to a solo frig he deserves to die.
your point is more than invalid. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
37
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 09:38:00 -
[86] - Quote
Luwc wrote: if a dude in a battleships dies to a solo frig he deserves to die.
Yes, because it's his fault the game is unbalanced. In some random mmo class A always kills class B because it can't be countered. Of course it's the fault of the class B player. It's like a chess game that starts with the pieces set that the first player win in 3 moves no matter what. It's the fault of the second player because he lost.
It's the fault of CCP that they made a half done game and can't be bothered to change it. Most players in the game now just rolled over and accepted it the way it is. The rest of 3 million or so just left
On top of everything comes the medieval twisted logic the "veteran" Eve players. I need 15 min to kill a battleship with a frigate there for the game is balanced. They have arguments like: I'm right, you're wrong even if I don't understand what you're saying. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
2631
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 09:43:00 -
[87] - Quote
Wait
I can fit a couple of Small T2 lasers to my Apoc when I expect frigate woes and beef up my drone defense and my Cruisers and BCs regularly carry Webbers to make frigates a non-issue.
Is the OP saying that Frigates should be able to carry Large Drones and Large Turrets so they are balanced against Battleships?
I dont want a Frigate to be balanced against a Battleship
That is just silly. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Samwise Everquest
The Scope Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 09:58:00 -
[88] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote:The Earth is so big yet my finger can penetrate its crust. Finger OP. And how much damage will your finger do? I invite everyone to look at this old video from 2004. The system they use is quite elegant and realistic and is quite unlike any other game out there. Simply put, armor is either penetrated or it is not. The end.
The weapon systems in EVE cannot be compared to RL ballistics. Lasers and antimatter are gonna inflict some damage no matter what the size of the object they are shooting at. This isnt just some metallic mass hitting another metallic mass. Look at EFPs for example (I think that's what they were called.) If i remember correctly, all it is copper that forms into a cone. It is able to penetrate our armored tanks with ease.
tl:dr you are not taking into consideration how advanced the weapon systems are in EvE IE we aren't shooting bullets. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:17:00 -
[89] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote: Is the OP saying that Frigates should be able to carry Large Drones and Large Turrets so they are balanced against Battleships?
News flash, they already exist in the game, Stealth bombers. Frigate size ships that can fit battleship weapons. It's not that frigates can kill large ships with small unbalanced weapons they even pack battleship size weapons.
And in 3 sec somebody will come with a childish argument that Battleships can mount small weapons too. But if the small weapons are the answer to everything why put large ships in the game on top of that with broken mechanics.
The only way to fix this is to change the damage calculation from
1 * weapon dmg to dmg adjustment * weapon dmg.
The dmg adjustment should never be larger than 1 and it should be equal weapon signature/target signature |
Maekchu
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:32:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tacomaco: I think you need a bit more PvP experience under your skin, before you can make a qualified argument about anything related to PvP.
EFTing ain't enough. :D |
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1400
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:42:00 -
[91] - Quote
Luwc wrote:if a dude in a battleships dies to a solo frig he deserves to die. i remember Civilization game where my tanks could die to Phalanx (unit from ancient era). Just because they both have some attack/defence value and RNG can give you any result...... And yes, it was player fault attacking phalanx by tank
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20281
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:43:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Yes, because it's his fault the game is unbalanced. The game is not unbalance. What you're asking for would make it unbalanced though.
Quote:In some random mmo class A always kills class B because it can't be countered. Of course it's the fault of the class B player. GǪand the good news is that EVE isn't one of those games, nor is it one of those even sillier games where just because you have bigger stuff or more SP, it doesn't mean you get an unassailable advantage.
Instead, EVE is actually balanced: everything is a threat to everything, and what matters is what you make of what you have.
Quote:On top of everything comes the medieval twisted logic the "veteran" Eve players. I need 15 min to kill a battleship with a frigate there for the game is balanced. No, that is entirely your logic. Don't try to foist it on others just because your logic is awful. The game is balanced because there is no unbeatable advantage, that is all. The plated BS is trying to use his to the fullest; the frigate does not.
Quote:The only way to fix this is to change the damage calculation from
1 * weapon dmg to dmg adjustment * weapon dmg.
The dmg adjustment should never be larger than 1 and it should be equal weapon signature/target signature Fix what? And what you're describing about already exists in the game. You have yet to actually describe anything that is broken and what that breakage consists of GÇö only bawled that GÇ£it's brokenGÇ¥ without explain what's wrong.
And no, small ships hitting large ships at full efficiency is not broken. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Esha Ditrix
93
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:46:00 -
[93] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4381191#post4381191 /thread Its not an exploit, if the game lets you do it... |
Maekchu
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:51:00 -
[94] - Quote
Why not just post the most important part of that post.
Tacomaco wrote:I don't have that much experience... Basically what I said Taco... Get some PvP experience and then come and talk about balance. Doing it the other way around is just wrong. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
2634
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:55:00 -
[95] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: News flash, they already exist in the game, Stealth bombers.
News Flash: Torpedos arent turrets, SBs cant carry Heavy Drones, they are made of egg shells, they are slow for frigates and Torpedos are worthless against other Frigates.
SBs are frigates SPECIALISED to attack targets larger than them in exchange for some pretty hefty penalties when used in any other way.
But then, if you think SBs match what you are looking for, why are you making this thread? *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Miles Parabellum
Zealots of Bob
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 11:01:00 -
[96] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Dude's on jetski's with armor piercing shoulder launched missles could sink an aircraft carrier
A frozen pea dropped from 90000 feet could bust the Iranian nuclear production bunkers. Easily. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
2637
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 11:35:00 -
[97] - Quote
Miles Parabellum wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Dude's on jetski's with armor piercing shoulder launched missles could sink an aircraft carrier A frozen pea dropped from 90000 feet could bust the Iranian nuclear production bunkers. Easily.
No
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20281
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 11:40:00 -
[98] - Quote
That's why you use rocket-propelled and heat-shielded tungsten peas fired from geosynchronous orbit.
And by GÇ£peasGÇ¥, I mean telephone poles. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
2637
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 11:47:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tippia wrote:That's why you use rocket-propelled and heat-shielded tungsten peas fired from geosynchronous orbit. And by GÇ£peasGÇ¥, I mean telephone poles.
Its wrong that I find how you describe this so hot *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20282
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 11:53:00 -
[100] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Its wrong that I find how you describe this so hot They're called GǣThor shotsGǥ for a reasonGǪ [/non-accidental innuendo]
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
|
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
2644
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 12:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Its wrong that I find how you describe this so hot They're called GǣThor shotsGǥ for a reasonGǪ [/non-accidental innuendo]
I cannot Like that post enough *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Rubishod
Discrete Astrographic Reconnaissance Technologies Avowed.
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 13:08:00 -
[102] - Quote
This one time when I was paying D&D I totally hit a Wizard with my Paladin and it didn't die. I was like dude I just hit you in the chest with a longsword and you didn't die. He was like dude it's called hit points. Then he hit me with a fireball and I did die.
I was like dude this makes no sense in real life you'd totally be dead. He was like dude I'm a wizard. I was like dude in real life I'd have killed you. He was like no dude, in real life you're nine years old.
Please stop talking about real life equivalent to the game. It's a game. It's not reality. Your mind controlled 'small gun' isn't a pistol; a 75mm railgun is firing a round that is 3 inches across faster than the speed of sound. We cannot accurately test what that will do to another mind controlled spaceship that happens to be larger than it.
The closest thing to real life that EVE has in it's weapon systems might be considered titanium sabot, which are at least not made up words. Going by the smallest size available, we are talking about a sabot that would be 125mm across, or about the size of a modern artillery round.
So unless someone can site up the evidence of what an artillery battery firing titanium sabot into 1600mm of rolled tungsten plate would actually do, I am terrified to admit I think we need to simply trust CCP on the matter. |
The Djentleman Paulson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
166
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 13:52:00 -
[103] - Quote
CAN SOMEONE LINK THE LOSSMAIL OF THE OP LOSING A BATTLESHIP TO THIRTY FRIGATES THANKS |
flakeys
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
2114
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 13:57:00 -
[104] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
To make clear what he was saying i'll give an example :
A while ago i got tackled in my raven by an interceptor . We 'fought' for at least 15 minutes .I couldn't hit him as he was orbiting me at high speed but he couldn't kill me because my repping was a lot better then his damage projection.
In the end we both agreed to go our own ways without any explosions .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
|
ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
118
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:03:00 -
[105] - Quote
Great Topic
Keep the discourse flowing, just think this post is a Features & Ideas kinda of Topic and is being moved to the correct forum.
On On ISD Flidais Asagiri Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
OP - go play world of tanks - that'll clearly be much more to your liking - especially when you're in a T1 up against a T10, infact - I'll one-on-one you with my KV-5 - which has got some major weakspots if you go in a T4 or below? For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
461
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:24:00 -
[107] - Quote
A battleship has many options when facing a frigate. In fact, the only real threat a frigate poses is tackle. If you get tackled you are at their mercy, but otherwise you pretty much win or they decide to leave. Fleets of them can pretty much ruin your day, but thats what happens if you dont have a fleet of your own.
You could:
Fit Neuts. Large Neuts will pretty much shut down any threat from a frigate, most importantly its tackle. Prop mods will also shut down, making the ship easier to hit.
Use Light Drones. Unbonused Light drones do about 100dps for a set of 5, much more if you are in a drone ship. While some frigate tanks will sustain 100dps, it will eat through your average PvP buffer fit without much issue. Active fits that can take the damage usually cant dish it, though exceptions exist.
Web it. A frigate both neuted and webbed is having a seriously bad day.
Smartbombs work if they get close enough. Unless its a blaster ship it really does not need to stay within 5000 meters though. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
297
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:38:00 -
[108] - Quote
Ok let as assume OP is right, what would change? Yeah... NOTHING, Battleships only would die slower. Thats it.
Also OP Weapon Signature isnt about the size or impact Power of a Charge its about accuracy. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:48:00 -
[109] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:A battleship has many options when facing a frigate. In fact, the only real threat a frigate poses is tackle. If you get tackled you are at their mercy, but otherwise you pretty much win or they decide to leave. Fleets of them can pretty much ruin your day, but thats what happens if you dont have a fleet of your own.
You could:
Fit Neuts. Large Neuts will pretty much shut down any threat from a frigate, most importantly its tackle. Prop mods will also shut down, making the ship easier to hit.
Use Light Drones. Unbonused Light drones do about 100dps for a set of 5, much more if you are in a drone ship. While some frigate tanks will sustain 100dps, it will eat through your average PvP buffer fit without much issue. Active fits that can take the damage usually cant dish it, though exceptions exist.
Web it. A frigate both neuted and webbed is having a seriously bad day.
Smartbombs work if they get close enough. Unless its a blaster ship it really does not need to stay within 5000 meters though.
actually - I've suddenly thought that a web and neuting paladin could REALLY make for some good bait, especially if also fit with TC's so it can hit at about 10km?
For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
368
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:53:00 -
[110] - Quote
Big vs small/small vs big pvp in eve is extremely balanced, what isn't is ecm, one race vs another and armor vs shields.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
|
|
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
193
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:03:00 -
[111] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:You DO realize the gun barrels on frigates are about the size of a person right? you can obviously tank a smaller ship much easier, but the fact is a smaller ship can still chip away at a bigger ship. The fact that a bigger ship can't hit a smaller ship makes sense anyways without the right equipment.
They are? I'm only 75mm/7.5cm/3 inches thick? Well...maybe not all of me...
Seriously, though.
It is technically possible to shoot through a tank's armor with a machine gun. It would just take a long time to do so because the machine gun does low damage and the tank has high hit points and even resists.
What you propose is essentially a double bonus to the bigger ships. If you base it solely on sig radius, then there would be a greatly reduced need in large ships for modules that increase hit points or resists. This reduced need would then free up precious slots for other modules thus increasing the power of larger ships exponentially in one swell foop.
-1
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
193
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:06:00 -
[112] - Quote
Miles Parabellum wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Dude's on jetski's with armor piercing shoulder launched missles could sink an aircraft carrier A frozen pea dropped from 90000 feet could bust the Iranian nuclear production bunkers. Easily.
I'd like to introduce you to my friend terminal velocity. He says you're full of baloney sausage.
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
1599
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:15:00 -
[113] - Quote
Luwc wrote:compared to the hit points a battleship has the small weapon damage is more than appopriate.
have you ever tried killing a plated abaddon with a T2 frig ?
I've done that! It took forever. I had exactly 1 bullet left in my hold plus whatever was in the guns at the end.
I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
1599
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:20:00 -
[114] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Tippia wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Its wrong that I find how you describe this so hot They're called GǣThor shotsGǥ for a reasonGǪ [/non-accidental innuendo] I cannot Like that post enough
OMG... OMG... everyone hush....
now.. kisss. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1222
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:21:00 -
[115] - Quote
one of the best things about this game is that no matter how much money and sp u have, if ur an idiot, ur still going to die to anyone in any ship who has a shred of intelligence.
if u want to survive in this game u need to learn that its not about ur money, ur skills, or the size of ur ship. all u need to do is stop being an idiot.
do that and watch ur survival rate increase. but as always, someone smarter than u is always going to come along at some point and deprive u of ur stuff. thats not imbalance, u were just unlucky and/or out played, either on a meta level or a tactical level. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2948
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 20:24:00 -
[116] - Quote
The Djentleman Paulson wrote:CAN SOMEONE LINK THE LOSSMAIL OF THE OP LOSING A BATTLESHIP TO THIRTY FRIGATES THANKS
You would think so, eh?
But no, if you look at OP's post history (waaa it takes forever to train the biggest and best thing) then you can see the problem; OP wanted the answer to "what is the best ship?" and then to train it and never lose. It's the grind to lvl 80 then farm lower levels mentality.
Or, you can look at his post where he claims shuttles are the best thing for hauling high value cargo because they warp cloaked, and assume:
a) OP is just trolling b) OP is ignorant of a good many things and won't take advice
Doesn't really matter which one it is. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
138
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 20:26:00 -
[117] - Quote
1/10 for the troll |
Egravant Alduin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
69
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 21:59:00 -
[118] - Quote
First of all I liked your idea op.I have seen machariels dying from 3 frigates since mach was out of drones and the 800mm couldn't touch the orbiting frigates even with 0.1 tracking and webbers.
I know this isn't nice but there isn't something wrong with that why?
Ships in EVE are based in medieval era ships that used canons style weapons and were firing one ammo per some seconds not many ammo like automatic weapons do in current era .
For example a battleship in eve fires from let's say 8 cannons (any kind of weapon) which will fire again in some seconds exactly the same principles with cannon in medieval era ships.
If eve wanted to be more realistic there should be automatic weapons which they could shoot 30-40 rounds each weapon per cycle time or RPS as used in current gun systems.
With this in mind you wouldn't need tracking but you would hit at a percentage 10%-100% since you would fire many ammo in space and some probably would hit since ammo flies real fast .
I would like to see real auto weapons like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdXw-xRKdmU
And not the boring medieval system eve has which all weapons even small ones work like canons with one ammo per cycle time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k86XhYS8GJI |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1222
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 22:25:00 -
[119] - Quote
Egravant Alduin wrote:
I know this isn't nice but there isn't something wrong with that why?
read my post ^^ thats why
the mach u talk about was out played on a tactical or meta level. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 08:53:00 -
[120] - Quote
Egravant Alduin wrote: If eve wanted to be more realistic there should be automatic weapons which they could shoot 30-40 rounds each weapon per cycle time or RPS as used in current gun systems.
Realism in game may or may not be good. In War Thunder ground forces they have realistic tank combat where tanks one-shot each other. The players in closed beta quit after 1-2 days.
Combat games need a combat system and the one in Eve is only half complete. The small scale PvP in Eve is very bad because of the ship imbalance. Small ships with small weapons have the upper hand over larger ships with large weapons. There is no penalty for attacking a large ship with a small one.
I only proposed a small change, to adjust the weapon damage based on the weapon signature and target signature. This will lead to larger range of ships that can be used in PvP. As an indirect effect it will require more output from the industry and more income for miners. Everyone would benefit from this.
Probably most of the trolls here don't actually understand what this weapon damage adjustment means. Then again you don't really need to understand what's discussed here in order to troll, right?
|
|
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2949
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 09:50:00 -
[121] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Probably most of the trolls here don't actually understand what this weapon damage adjustment means
We do, it means the game would be completely broken and the only ship worth flying would be a battleship. Battleships are balanced, but they are balanced for their role. Since you don't understand their role, you don't understand why they are balanced.
Don't worry though, I'm sure telling everyone with years of experience they are wrong is a completely sound strategy, and your 5 minutes of experience will illuminate us all.
Of course, what we all know is that you're not even talking about PVP at all (since the cases of a battleship dying in the way you are wailing about are very few and far between, and preclude that the battleship pilot is either AFK, a new player in a ship without support skills, or just very very bad at the game) but you're talking about elite frigates in some mission that got you killed, likely because you're a new player in a ship without the support skills for it. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
302
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 09:57:00 -
[122] - Quote
@Tacomaco, what you should aim for is more difference between alpha(Volley) and dps, the tracking mechanic is pretty much the most balanced mechanic i know at any game!
Maybe is tweaking alpha/dps a new Way to go?
BUT BE AWARE!! Frigs should be a bit OP because its the most accessible class at the Game, if your suggsestion Break this feature you would harm Eve!
|
Egravant Alduin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
69
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 10:54:00 -
[123] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Egravant Alduin wrote: If eve wanted to be more realistic there should be automatic weapons which they could shoot 30-40 rounds each weapon per cycle time or RPS as used in current gun systems.
Realism in game may or may not be good. In War Thunder ground forces they have realistic tank combat where tanks one-shot each other. The players in closed beta quit after 1-2 days. Combat games need a combat system and the one in Eve is only half complete. The small scale PvP in Eve is very bad because of the ship imbalance. Small ships with small weapons have the upper hand over larger ships with large weapons. There is no penalty for attacking a large ship with a small one. I only proposed a small change, to adjust the weapon damage based on the weapon signature and target signature. This will lead to larger range of ships that can be used in PvP. As an indirect effect it will require more output from the industry and more income for miners. Everyone would benefit from this. Probably most of the trolls here don't actually understand what this weapon damage adjustment means. Then again you don't really need to understand what's discussed here in order to troll, right?
There is a "penalty" bigger ships have high hps and tanking abilities.I still think though this sin t enough since i know frigatesthat can deal 400-500 dps which is a lot compared to a battleship which is 10 time bigger which deal 1000 dmage and terrible applied damage while frigates will have 100% applied damage. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 11:52:00 -
[124] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote: We do, it means the game would be completely broken and the only ship worth flying would be a battleship. Battleships are balanced, but they are balanced for their role. Since you don't understand their role, you don't understand why they are balanced.
At first glance it would look like everyone would be flying battleships around. But there is always the risk of loosing an expensive ship and right now it's the problem that you can loose a 200mil ship to 2-3 frigates. After the change to the dmg adjustment you would risk loosing the Battleship but only to 2-3 cruiser equipped at least with medium weapons.
A large ship like a BS should be relative immune to attack from 2-3 frigates equipped to fight small ships. Their small weapons aren't designed to handle large targets the same way the large weapons aren't designed to attack small ones. Simple.
After this change the small specialized ships can be diversified even more. Right now there is a specialized small ship that can equip Large missiles. The stealth bombers.
Small ships equipped with large weapons should be able to destroy large ships as they do now. Even more, another destroyer variant can be added to the game, a gun ship that can quip Large turret weapons.
Something like a Catalyst version that get 99.65% reduction to large turret power needs the same way the stealth bomber gets for torpedo Launcher. If the ship fits only large weapons it can handle large targets but can't handle small ones.
Right weapon for right target. Except that now the small weapons are the right weapon for everything.
|
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
304
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:00:00 -
[125] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:A large ship like a BS should be relative immune to attack from 2-3 frigates equipped to fight small ships. Their small weapons aren't designed to handle large targets the same way the large weapons aren't designed to attack small ones. Simple.
I would be VERY carefully with this statement, high precision due the good Signature of small guns can pierce specific weakpoints much easier then big and vague shots.
For example, a broadsword strike can be absorbed by plate Armor while a small knife can pierce throught specific weakpoints between the plates, while the sword does have more impact the knife is easier to wield. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2951
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:10:00 -
[126] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:A large ship like a BS should be relative immune to attack from 2-3 frigates equipped to fight small ships
They already are. The entire problem here, is that you don't have a literal clue what you are talking about. You are piling assumptions on top of misunderstanding, and concluding that 2+2 = 163.
Small vs large is balanced by EHP and DPS.
A well-fit PVP battleship will do 800+ dps, and have 150,000 ehp, or about 80,000 ehp and an active tank of 500+ dps
A well-fit PVP frigate will do 150 dps, have 5000 ehp, or an active tank of about 50 dps.
In 95/100 scenarios, the battleship won't be bothering to try to kill the frigate, it will ignore it.
Your whole argument is basically "isk tanking" - the concept that the cost of the ship should inherently relate to it's power and how effective it should be. It took CCP a while, but when they realised there were 1500+ titans in the game, when they predicted a small handful based on price, they realised it was a flawed concept.
Eve is the most balanced game I can think of. Every pilot and every ship has a role to play and can perform it well enough to warrant being there. Compare that to other MMO's where there's months of grind to even meet the entry requirements, and it's balanced on gear, and you have a much worse situation.
You should be embracing the fact that as a new player you can be relevant to end-game content in week one, not wailing and crying like a baby that you can't pay-to-win. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2951
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:11:00 -
[127] - Quote
FYI if you want to lean on "but in the real world" nonsense straw-men arguments again, then stop ignoring the posts where people have given real-world examples of small, cheap attack forces causing massive amounts of damage to larger, much more expensive military hardware. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2951
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:15:00 -
[128] - Quote
FYI #2 - the majority of the most popular hulls for PVP are all battleships. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1225
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 17:33:00 -
[129] - Quote
Egravant Alduin wrote:
There is a "penalty" bigger ships have high hps and tanking abilities.I still think though this sin t enough since i know frigatesthat can deal 400-500 dps which is a lot compared to a battleship which is 10 time bigger which deal 1000 dmage and terrible applied damage while frigates will have 100% applied damage.
in that particular case ur talkin about paper thin enyo's. they maybe good against battle ships, but a fleet stabber or navy slicer will hurt these enyos. its all about the rock paper scissors. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
117
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 03:23:00 -
[130] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:FYI #2 - the majority of the most popular hulls for PVP are all battleships. yeah - but that's nullsec doctrine fleets - I'll bet 100 isk! For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
|
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2964
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 08:58:00 -
[131] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:FYI #2 - the majority of the most popular hulls for PVP are all battleships. yeah - but that's nullsec doctrine fleets - I'll bet 100 isk! It's really anywhere. A BS hull is supremely common:
- In highsec station / gate camps - In larger lowsec fleets - In lowsec station / gate camps - Very common in serious FW fleets - In NPC 0.0, you will see a lot being used in syndicate / provi - In WHs with triage support when you are defending (though this will often just be more T3s) - In most sov 0.0 doctrines
In most places, the "DPS" fleet role will very often be a battleship hull, with other ships taking up about 40% of a fleet by number and acting as support/logi. T2 and T3 cruisers see fleet use, but both have serious drawbacks and are usually fielded as a rock-to-their-paper style counter. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc The East India Co.
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 09:57:00 -
[132] - Quote
So basically there have to be one more modifier to damage based on ratio of size cannon/launcher to size of target (not sig). Not bad idea actually. |
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 10:47:00 -
[133] - Quote
When shooting a small and fast target with a big gun its hard, when shooting something large and slow with a fast guns its easy... Not exactly hard to work out mechanics. If they can break your tank with their 170~ dps then your either doing it wrong or its fair game. Similarly if you did hit the frig, which the pilot would have to be pretty stupid to stop moving completely or move on dead away or towards you... then they would die in 1 or 2 hits instead of the 150 hits it will take them to grind through your hp.
Again This mechanic is fine. Go play WoW. |
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
47
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 07:33:00 -
[134] - Quote
Lidia Caderu wrote:So basically there have to be one more modifier to damage based on ratio of size cannon/launcher to size of target (not sig). Not bad idea actually.
Of course it's a good idea.
If you look at who's against it, you'll see it's only players with frigates don't want this. Take for example this Juan fan boy above( whenyou tell people to stop playing and gtfo, you are a fanboy). I looked at 3 pages of his kills, all the ships he lost are frigate and destroyer size. Why frigate, because that's where the exploits are...
They just love to exploit this imbalance in the combat system to go with rookie ships or 300k isk hulls after medium size or even large ships 50-100 times more expensive. This huge ISK imbalance must be addressed for small scale PvP.
Maybe this is balanced in large fleets but the day to day PvP is done in small combat of 2-4 ships. Outside the Eve community does anyone see this game as a PvP game? Of course not, it's see as some ganker paradise because of this PvP imbalance.
Even if CCP makes this dmg adjustment for weapon/target sizes it will take some time to wash the bad reputation Eve got because of thie PvP imbalance
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
327
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 09:03:00 -
[135] - Quote
Actually I don't mind the balance the way it is...think of rl battleships. Their 15" guns can't track small high speed MTB's, even the secondary armament would struggle which was why the MTB Destroyer (guess what that got shortened to) was developed. A BS should always fly in a fleet with smaller escort. It's only in missions that it is really possibly to fly a BS solo. Try taking corpies along in frigs and dessies on a mission and see how much faster the mission goes and how much more fun it is for the newer less skilled players. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
6
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 09:44:00 -
[136] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Lidia Caderu wrote:So basically there have to be one more modifier to damage based on ratio of size cannon/launcher to size of target (not sig). Not bad idea actually. Of course it's a good idea. If you look at who's against it, you'll see it's only players with frigates don't want this. Take for example this Juan fan boy above( whenyou tell people to stop playing and gtfo, you are a fanboy). I looked at 3 pages of his kills, all the ships he lost are frigate and destroyer size. Why frigate, because that's where the exploits are... They just love to exploit this imbalance in the combat system to go with rookie ships or 300k isk hulls after medium size or even large ships 50-100 times more expensive. This huge ISK imbalance must be addressed for small scale PvP. Maybe this is balanced in large fleets but the day to day PvP is done in small combat of 2-4 ships. Outside the Eve community does anyone see this game as a PvP game? Of course not, it's see as some ganker paradise because of this PvP imbalance. Even if CCP makes this dmg adjustment for weapon/target sizes it will take some time to wash the bad reputation Eve got because of thie PvP imbalance
There is no PVP imbalance between a BS and a frigate, the BS wins and can't be killed by a frigate if both are fit for PVP and flown by competent pilots. The frigate has no way to break the tank of a combat BS.
Your argument is based on a fallacy stemming from a lack of understanding of PVP.
|
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2968
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 13:54:00 -
[137] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:If you look at who's against it, you'll see it's only players with frigates don't want this Actually, as you have already admitted, literally everyone in Eve doesn't want this.
Your other posts (particularly the ones that had to be deleted in the new player section) reveal your motive; you seem to hate new players, and are trying to troll them. This change can only harm new players, and you know it.
Your concept that "one player should beat 2-4 players" because their setup costs more is dumb, and un-eve. You are also incredibly narrow minded and don't seem to see how this utterly breaks the game if you scale it up so that there isn't just one battleship on field fighting 2-4 frigates.
This has been explained to you over and over again in very simple terms, using real-world examples to dispel your "it's not realistic" strawman.
Based on the fact that you shut up till someone says something new you can selectively quote and say the same thing about, I have to conclude you are either a very poorly skilled debater, or an above-average troll. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
507
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 14:07:00 -
[138] - Quote
Egravant Alduin wrote:Tacomaco wrote:Egravant Alduin wrote: If eve wanted to be more realistic there should be automatic weapons which they could shoot 30-40 rounds each weapon per cycle time or RPS as used in current gun systems.
Realism in game may or may not be good. In War Thunder ground forces they have realistic tank combat where tanks one-shot each other. The players in closed beta quit after 1-2 days. Combat games need a combat system and the one in Eve is only half complete. The small scale PvP in Eve is very bad because of the ship imbalance. Small ships with small weapons have the upper hand over larger ships with large weapons. There is no penalty for attacking a large ship with a small one. I only proposed a small change, to adjust the weapon damage based on the weapon signature and target signature. This will lead to larger range of ships that can be used in PvP. As an indirect effect it will require more output from the industry and more income for miners. Everyone would benefit from this. Probably most of the trolls here don't actually understand what this weapon damage adjustment means. Then again you don't really need to understand what's discussed here in order to troll, right? There is a "penalty" bigger ships have high hps and tanking abilities.I still think though this sin t enough since i know frigatesthat can deal 400-500 dps which is a lot compared to a battleship which is 10 time bigger which deal 1000 dmage and terrible applied damage while frigates will have 100% applied damage. out of the SB, the max frig i can come up with would be the dardevil and it does top a tad under 300 dps vith void, wich has a terribad range.
and since SB uses torpedoes, they do have BS like damage application, also engaging almost any other frig with a regular 400+dps SB will end only one way: your fit on a killboard |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
507
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 14:11:00 -
[139] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Tacomaco wrote:Lidia Caderu wrote:So basically there have to be one more modifier to damage based on ratio of size cannon/launcher to size of target (not sig). Not bad idea actually. Of course it's a good idea. If you look at who's against it, you'll see it's only players with frigates don't want this. Take for example this Juan fan boy above( whenyou tell people to stop playing and gtfo, you are a fanboy). I looked at 3 pages of his kills, all the ships he lost are frigate and destroyer size. Why frigate, because that's where the exploits are... They just love to exploit this imbalance in the combat system to go with rookie ships or 300k isk hulls after medium size or even large ships 50-100 times more expensive. This huge ISK imbalance must be addressed for small scale PvP. Maybe this is balanced in large fleets but the day to day PvP is done in small combat of 2-4 ships. Outside the Eve community does anyone see this game as a PvP game? Of course not, it's see as some ganker paradise because of this PvP imbalance. Even if CCP makes this dmg adjustment for weapon/target sizes it will take some time to wash the bad reputation Eve got because of thie PvP imbalance There is no PVP imbalance between a BS and a frigate, the BS wins and can't be killed by a frigate if both are fit for PVP and flown by competent pilots. The frigate has no way to break the tank of a combat BS. Your argument is based on a fallacy stemming from a lack of understanding of PVP. not completely true
pvp fit are often buffer fits, so given enought time, the frig can chew throught the BS tank.
now, said frig can kite / sig tank BS, wich means the only way the BS can survive / kill the frig is that it does carry either ECM drones / modules, to GTFO, or neut.
what you say is true for active / regen fittings tho (some regen, and very case specific, because some nasty frigs can pull a lot of DPS) |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
507
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 14:54:00 -
[140] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote: just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.
Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE. you, like OP, seems to lack game mechanics knowledge
1- the main drawback of frig weapons, when engagin BC / BS, is the range, meaning you will be in range of point/web (10km), and neut (med neut is around 12-15k, large is up to 30k)
2- bc and BS can defend themselves against frigs, using scram, web, neuts, and drones and many of those can cumulate several
3- nothing prevents you from fitting frig sized weapons on your BS, meaning you can hit those pesky bugger, out of the SB, the opposite is not true for the frig.
now, if you manage to get your bs killed by frigs, even 2-3 of them, i kindly suggest the following:
1- stop whining 2- REALLY stop whining 3- learn fitting 101 4- learn game mechanics 5- once done, come back to this threads, and realise how dumb you were back then, and pray that your post stay burried |
|
Arun Tadaruwa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:18:00 -
[141] - Quote
Well look at that, making EVE-reality analogies.
I'm sory, but EVE isn't a realistic game.
Besides, gameplay comes before realism. The change you're proposing hinders gameplay, since it removes the ability to strike up the power scale.
If this game was totally realistic, it'd be tedious.
|
Ella Echerie
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:42:00 -
[142] - Quote
The mechanics are fine. If you want to you can fit your battleship with anit-frigate weaponry and systems and it will be very very strong against frigates.
Basically what seth said ^. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1245
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:51:00 -
[143] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote: If you look at who's against it, you'll see it's only players with frigates don't want this.
ur the only one who wants this, everyone else flies ships from frigates to BS.#
edit- Quote:This huge ISK imbalance must be addressed for small scale PvP
isk is not a balancing factor in combat. its merely a deterrent.
just because a ship costs five times the isk does not mean it should take five ships to kill. with eve players setting the price of ships, this perception of cost = power is outright wrong. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Adrie Atticus
Unicorn Love Hurts
52
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:38:00 -
[144] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Tacomaco wrote: If you look at who's against it, you'll see it's only players with frigates don't want this.
ur the only one who wants this, everyone else flies ships from frigates to BS.# edit- Quote:This huge ISK imbalance must be addressed for small scale PvP isk is not a balancing factor in combat. its merely a deterrent. just because a ship costs five times the isk does not mean it should take five ships to kill. with eve players setting the price of ships, this perception of cost = power is outright wrong.
Yep, with "more = more" -logic, Etana should be able to clear off dozens of Thanatoses solo. |
oohthey ioh
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 18:08:00 -
[145] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote: You also realize that bigger ships have more EPH than smaller ships?
And the fanboyz pounce..... You realize that you completely ignore the fact that it's not about hit points. It's like saying that a tank has more hit points and if you shoot at it with with a machine gun it just takes longer to destroy it than it takes to destroy a car. When in fact it can't be destroyed... But I kinda understand why the fanboyz would be scared about this change. You would have to fight bigger ships with ships of their own size. Probably if you have some skill at making money you would afford some ship bigger than a frigate. Just keep the game like this, pvp for the poor man....
If it's made out of the same material then yes, a tank has more Hitpionts, if it's not the same material then it will still have more hitpionts, reason it will take more Hits to take down.
what you are trying to say dose make sense but that is already in the game, by giving the bigger ships more HP.
If you have a small brick wall one layer thick is going so many hits to take down, you a wall 3 times the size and 3 layers thick it will take even more shot to take down, but the bullets are going to do the same damage, just going to take more damage to take it down?!?!?! the bullets aren't "oh **** the wall is huge, let do less damage". so to take down the wall you bring a bigger gun, but that means the small wall will be taking down pretty fast so lets keep the small wall moving so the biger gun can't hit it... that is how the game is balanced at the moment.
and it's not hard to hit something smaller then you, you could always web them, paint them, keep range so on....
you looking at it wrong, you looking at as boring pain numbers not percentages, if small ships do 50% the damage to a bigger ships it's just the same as the bigger ship has 200% hitpionts and you doing 100% damage.
can go on but can't be asked.
sorry for poor grammar and spelling.
|
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
47
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 09:06:00 -
[146] - Quote
oohthey ioh wrote: what you are trying to say dose make sense but that is already in the game, by giving the bigger ships more HP.
Of course larger ships have more hit points, it takes more materials to build and are larger.
The issue here is right weapon for the right target. The only reason some players don't like it is simply because it's not in the game.
Here is another example, rockets. Larger rockets hit small ships but do less damage because of the target signature, target speed, explosion speed and radius. So it's ok for big rockets to do less damage to small ships because it's balanced like that. There weren't designed to take out small ships.
The question is why should a light missile or rockets to full damage to large ships when they were designed to do their full damage to small fast ships?
Well, CCP keep the game broken like it's now. When new games like Star Citizen come out see how many of the PvP-ers still play Eve just for the PvP. It's easy now when Eve doesn't have completion. I wouldn't be surprised CCP will make quite a lot of changes to PvP once the completion start draining the player base.
Oh, well, there will still be miners in Eve... |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 11:27:00 -
[147] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:
The question is why should a light missile or rockets to full damage to large ships when they were designed to do their full damage to small fast ships?
Because they do so little damage even at max capacity.
Do you still think that a frigate wins a battleship, btw?
|
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
48
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 12:16:00 -
[148] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote: Similarly if you did hit the frig, which the pilot would have to be pretty stupid to stop moving completely or move on dead away or towards you... then they would die in 1 or 2 hits instead of the 150 hits it will take them to grind through your hp.
Kill BS with frigate? This guy thinks so. He probably exploits that all the time.
How about this question, can a destroyer equipped with small weapons destroy a Battleship? Does it have the dps to burn the battleship tank? I think we all know the answer...
In 8 pages nobody has provided one single argument why the small weapons shouldn't be rebalanced. Sry guys, but "we like it(cause we can exploit it)" or "it's in the game for years" or "battleship has lots of hp" aren't arguments. 6 year old kids use this kind of arguments when they want something. When you don't like what's written here, could you at least write your comment so it doesn't look like it's taken from the warcraft forum?
Again: why large and medium ships with large/medium weapons should lose their effectiveness against small ships when the small ships don't lose anything? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
331
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 12:34:00 -
[149] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Juan Thang wrote: Similarly if you did hit the frig, which the pilot would have to be pretty stupid to stop moving completely or move on dead away or towards you... then they would die in 1 or 2 hits instead of the 150 hits it will take them to grind through your hp. Kill BS with frigate? This guy thinks so. He probably exploits that all the time. How about this question, can a destroyer equipped with small weapons destroy a Battleship? Does it have the dps to burn the battleship tank? I think we all know the answer... In 8 pages nobody has provided one single argument why the small weapons shouldn't be rebalanced. Sry guys, but "we like it(cause we can exploit it)" or "it's in the game for years" or "battleship has lots of hp" aren't arguments. 6 year old kids use this kind of arguments when they want something. When you don't like what's written here, could you at least write your comment so it doesn't look like it's taken from the warcraft forum? Again: why large and medium ships with large/medium weapons should lose their effectiveness against small ships when the small ships don't lose anything?
The weapons in Eve are firing hypersonic shot, plasma bolts, anti-matter shells etc etc...these don't just hit armour, they vaporize chunks of it. Your armour reps try to mitigate ths by replacing material with paste, patching the scrap back in place, buffing fields around the hull etc etc. It is entirely conceivable that e.g. anti-matter will work perfectly from a small gun against a large target as non of it is wasted in an explosion radius to get the target. you practically can't miss. The BS shell on the other hand would need to be proximity fused to hit a frigate otherwise the chances of hitting would be negligible. Proximity fuse means blast radius means less damage than a direct hit against say another BS. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 12:36:00 -
[150] - Quote
Tacomaco wrote:Juan Thang wrote: Similarly if you did hit the frig, which the pilot would have to be pretty stupid to stop moving completely or move on dead away or towards you... then they would die in 1 or 2 hits instead of the 150 hits it will take them to grind through your hp. Kill BS with frigate? This guy thinks so. He probably exploits that all the time.
No, what do you think? Everyone else in this thread knows the answer, and it's no, a PVP fit BS will obliterate a frigate. but do you think this is not the case?
Quote:In 8 pages nobody has provided one single argument why the small weapons shouldn't be rebalanced. Sry guys, but "we like it(cause we can exploit it)" or "it's in the game for years" or "battleship has lots of hp" aren't arguments. 6 year old kids use this kind of arguments when they want something. When you don't like what's written here, could you at least write your comment so it doesn't look like it's taken from the warcraft forum?
Again: why large and medium ships with large/medium weapons should lose their effectiveness against small ships when the small ships don't lose anything?
In 8 pages nobody has provided one single argument why small weapons wouldn't be balanced as they are. Sry mate, but "I don't have a clue but my mission boat was violenced and therefore my cluelesness must be an exploit" isn't an argument. 3 year old kid uses that kind of argument when he wants something.
Again: Why should small ships lose their weapon effectiness against larger targets? Do you understand the tracking and explosion mechanics behind the current situation? |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
331
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 12:56:00 -
[151] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Again: Why should small ships lose their weapon effectiness against larger targets? Do you understand the tracking and explosion mechanics behind the current situation?
To be fair I think he doesn't like the idea of say the equivalent of a 20MM cannon round damaging the 16" armour plate of a rl BS...but this is a game and for balance reasons (plus the real physics reasons I blathered about above) small guns will always have to be able to apply damage to targets. I agree with you that the balance is fine as is, it's just his perception that a frig shouldn't damage a BS that is wrong. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1255
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 15:19:00 -
[152] - Quote
Quote:The question is why should a light missile or rockets to full damage to large ships when they were designed to do their full damage to small fast ships?
because its easy to make a good hit against a battleship with a fast moving rocket. and large missiles do less damage against frigs because its not easy to hit a fighter with a cruiser missiles or a speed boat with a torpedo.
Tacomaco wrote:
Well, CCP keep the game broken like it's now. When new games like Star Citizen come out see how many of the PvP-ers still play Eve just for the PvP. It's easy now when Eve doesn't have completion. I wouldn't be surprised CCP will make quite a lot of changes to PvP once the completion start draining the player base.
Oh, well, there will still be miners in Eve...
have u read what PvP is going to be like in star citizen? i read somewhere that the creator itself is saying that its less of a PvP game than PvE game...enjoy
im sure the combat style is great for twitch play, but i also bet large ships piloted by dumb ppl still fall prey to smaller ships piloted by experienced players and that the practically 'arranged' PvP will be about as immersive as CoD. if u want small one dimensional match-made matches with twitch play, play SC. if u want larger fights multi-leveled PvP with less arbitrary constraints, EVE will still be the better choice.
Quote:In 8 pages nobody has provided one single argument why the small weapons shouldn't be rebalanced
because they are fine. u havent provided a single reason why they should be rebalanced except that u think a bigger more expensive ship should auto-win against smaller ships, and 8 pages of ppl are telling u why this is wrong. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |