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smallgreenblur
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:43:00 -
[1]
EW is too powerful. Discuss.
sgb
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wierchas noobhunter
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:45:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: smallgreenblur
EW is too powerful. Discuss.
sgb
/signed
nice mode ON/off
Naughty - don't discuss moderation on the forums! - Cathath |
TheKiller8
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:45:00 -
[3]
Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?
.: Click 2 See My Flash Animations :. |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:45:00 -
[4]
yesterday I managed to jam a geddon with a t1 minmatar jammer and no skills to make it more effective
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: TheKiller8
Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?
you > me :(
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: smallgreenblur
EW is too powerful. Discuss.
sgb
Best ideas Ive heard are:
Sensor Backup modules changing your maxed locked targets to 1 regardless of EW
and
EW having a cooldown time so you cant permalock anything (which was Sarmaul's idea, iirc)
They'd work best.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
EW having a cooldown time so you cant permalock anything (which was Sarmaul's idea, iirc)
They'd work best.
permajam actually 
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:57:00 -
[8]
signed. a racial t2 doing 9 points has a 41% chance of jamming a raven [22points]
within 21seconds you get to activeate it twice, giving you a 75% chance of jamming that raven within 20sec of lock! that one jam + the time to reloack means he id dead no matter what he does!
if you double the strength it means that within 21sec of lock [2cycles] a racial has 37% chance of jamming, which is much better!
if you combine this with ECM not breaking lock but stoping high slot mods from working [ie no need to relock which can be 8+ sec on a BS] then it might be ok!
also half the strength of tracking desrupters and damps
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.05.04 11:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Testy Mctest
EW having a cooldown time so you cant permalock anything (which was Sarmaul's idea, iirc)
They'd work best.
permajam actually
Err....yeh, that. I was going along the lines of perma-lockdown, but I was on the phone typing at the time :P
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:02:00 -
[10]
You have 6mio in gunnery, I have 6mio in electronics 
no honestly, all this talking about "omg, I jammed a geddon with a matari jammer" is rubbish.
Its a luck based system, so you can be lucky... or not.
For every story you may tell, I can tell you about how my 13 strength jammers missed to jamm a megathron for 3 cycles... although I was using 3 of them on him...
And before you want to have the old system back, back then I permajammed 4-5 BS easily
Summertime - Campingtime!
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Thor Belfry
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:02:00 -
[11]
I don't think ECM is overpowered as such though when you can fit it on anything and it being useful on anything it's a problem so I'd say the ships are overpowered not ECM
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:05:00 -
[12]
its overpowered no matter how u put it nafari
put one racial on a ship and your target had almost zero chance and you dont even need high skills!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gronsak
its overpowered no matter how u put it nafari
put one racial on a ship and your target had almost zero chance and you dont even need high skills!
thats a lie
Summertime - Campingtime!
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:09:00 -
[14]
ECM is definitely too strong. It's not in line with the other EWs. Seeing how even arbitrators, bellicoses and celestis' fit ECM rather than the EW they get a bonus on tells you something.
Doubling the sensor strength of every ship is a step into the right direction.
Or rather add a certain amount (20 for battleships), since amarr sensor strength sucks.
Forsch
Defender of the empire |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Forsch
ECM is definitely too strong. It's not in line with the other EWs. Seeing how even arbitrators, bellicoses and celestis' fit ECM rather than the EW they get a bonus on tells you something.
Doubling the sensor strength of every ship is a step into the right direction.
Or rather add a certain amount (20 for battleships), since amarr sensor strength sucks.
Amarrs is just second worst Sensor strenght
And no honestly, if you use ECM a lot, you will really notice its problems, and there are a lot
Summertime - Campingtime!
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Forsch
ECM is definitely too strong. It's not in line with the other EWs. Seeing how even arbitrators, bellicoses and celestis' fit ECM rather than the EW they get a bonus on tells you something.
Doubling the sensor strength of every ship is a step into the right direction.
Or rather add a certain amount (20 for battleships), since amarr sensor strength sucks.
Amarrs is just second worst Sensor strenght
And no honestly, if you use ECM a lot, you will really notice its problems, and there are a lot
pray tell
for when i use ECM on my targets im able to take on 3vs1 pretty easy. and i dont even fly ECM ships!
and you think its ok for ONE mid slot to have 75% chance in jamming a raven and MORE chance jamming other ships? and thats assumeing the fight lasts lock time + 21seconds. its closer to 85% if the fight lasts lock time and 41 seconds
ONE MID SLOT gives u 85% chance of shutting down the target for at lest one 20sec cycle = dead ship
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Shardrael
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:42:00 -
[17]
personally if it has to be nerfed I would rather see maybe the sensor jamming strength on the ecm modules dropped and the ecm cruisers and other class of ships given more bonuses to compensate, would much rather have one type of ship able to use ecm well then nerf it across the board into uselessness
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gronsak
signed. a racial t2 doing 9 points has a 41% chance of jamming a raven [22points]
within 21seconds you get to activeate it twice, giving you a 75% chance of jamming that raven within 20sec of lock! that one jam + the time to reloack means he id dead no matter what he does!
if you double the strength it means that within 21sec of lock [2cycles] a racial has 37% chance of jamming, which is much better!
if you combine this with ECM not breaking lock but stoping high slot mods from working [ie no need to relock which can be 8+ sec on a BS] then it might be ok!
also half the strength of tracking desrupters and damps
75% ? how did you come to that number ? the second cycle is independent, so you have again 41% chance to jam. within 21 seconds you HAVE to ativate it twice as it has a 20second cycle time.
Nafri: I gave up on this kind of discussions. ppl want to either completely remove ecm or making it function in such a way that it is not worth over tracking disruptors/sensor damps. I think you'll save much nerve doing the same :-))
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if you want peace, prepare for war ...
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well |
smallgreenblur
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:43:00 -
[19]
Well I just thought i'd leave this thread for a few minutes, and 15 replies, 14 of which agree that EW is overpowered.
Personally I used to love fitting that one multispec on my ship, i even sacrificed my beloved mwd to fit multi, web and scram on my rupture, i got so many cruiser kills from that 
However, these days it seems that everybody and his uncle is doing this. And it is actually ruining pvp. Either your mates bring a load of ew, jam the hell out of everything, and you win, or the other side does.
So, what I am thinking, and testy's points above are also interesting, is just a general nerf of ECM to bring it in line with other EW mods. Any ideas, feel free to post here and maybe Tux will have a look when he's finished balancing autos, arties and blasters (in that order please Tux )
Personally, I feel that either a reduction in jamming strength of say 25% across the board, an increase in sensor strength of ships across the board (similar to the hp increase a while back), or even a boost to the effectiveness of ECCM.
From what I've seen of ECM, it often either ends up never jamming something it should do or getting far too many jams on something that should be basically invulnerable to ECM (domi with 34 sensor strength vs 1 multi, for example).
Anyway, I don't want to make ECM useless, since i know many of you have specialised in this useful form of warfare. I'm just continually trying to make PvP more fun for everybody.
If we get a bunch of interesting ideas i may even update the first post to reflect them, so as to let all the lazy people read them without having to read an entire thread. If i'm that bored. I have essays, so it's highly likely atm.
sgb
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jukriamrr
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:46:00 -
[20]
It is obvious that sir sgb is a fan of the "brutor approach": "simply cram as much firepower onto a ship as possible, forge about ewar"
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.05.04 12:53:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Forsch on 04/05/2006 12:54:41
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
ppl want to either completely remove ecm or making it function in such a way that it is not worth over tracking disruptors/sensor damps.
Aha! Why SHOULD it be worth more than TDs/SDs?? If anything, it should be of equal use.
Right now, it's much much better. It cannot stay that way.
Forsch
Defender of the empire |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:00:00 -
[22]
EW is fine.
Except for the bugged drones. But that's a bug, not a design flaw.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
BlackPrince
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:02:00 -
[23]
Or yall could try using projected eccm in cooperation with the active and passive modules to make yourselves (if done properly) almost immune to being jammed, or in lesser doses make it very difficult to be jammed. God forbid someone should show some creative thought about overcoming a problem instead of just screaming "NERF!".
EWAR is very easy to overcome on a fleet and smaller task force level if you think about it.
-=BlackPrince=-
Minmatar United Freedom Front Raging Bull
"Fair fights are for suckers." |
smallgreenblur
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: BlackPrince
Or yall could try using projected eccm in cooperation with the active and passive modules to make yourselves (if done properly) almost immune to being jammed, or in lesser doses make it very difficult to be jammed. God forbid someone should show some creative thought about overcoming a problem instead of just screaming "NERF!".
EWAR is very easy to overcome on a fleet and smaller task force level if you think about it.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
EW is fine.
Except for the bugged drones. But that's a bug, not a design flaw.
Have I screamed nerf? No. Do I, and many others, think ECM is overpowered, both in very small fleets and in larger battles? Yes.
This is a thread I have started for intelligent debate on this topic (I'm bored of sarcastic one-liners), please treat it as such and state your side of the argument.
Maya - at the moment ECM seems to be able to lock down ships far too easily, this does not seem to be 'fine' to me. If you feel that this is fine, then please state your argument as to why.
sgb
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:08:00 -
[25]
Here's an idea I had.
1. Stacking penalty to ECM (same as sensor damps and target painters). Thus, no matter how many ships you have jamming another, you're not fully 100% sure to jam it. Also, this means that higher-powered jammers would have more of a benefit.
2. Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies, NOT locking them.
3. Jammers have 10 second cycle time.
This means that you wouldn't have to wait 10 seconds to relock an enemy every time the jammer turns off and then fire--you could just fire the instant the jam stops.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Gronsak
signed. a racial t2 doing 9 points has a 41% chance of jamming a raven [22points]
within 21seconds you get to activeate it twice, giving you a 75% chance of jamming that raven within 20sec of lock! that one jam + the time to reloack means he id dead no matter what he does!
if you double the strength it means that within 21sec of lock [2cycles] a racial has 37% chance of jamming, which is much better!
if you combine this with ECM not breaking lock but stoping high slot mods from working [ie no need to relock which can be 8+ sec on a BS] then it might be ok!
also half the strength of tracking desrupters and damps
75% ? how did you come to that number ? the second cycle is independent, so you have again 41% chance to jam. within 21 seconds you HAVE to ativate it twice as it has a 20second cycle time.
if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.
basicly the same math applies to jamming. 41% chance of jamming in first cycle. second cycle is 65% [ie that you jam them once during those two ccyles]
third is 81.34% of jamming them once within 3 cycles or 41seconds!!!!!
the numbers on this post are correct, the others where a "little off" since i did those without a calculator
basicly one mid slot with racial jammer gives you 81.3% chance of jamming the target once within 41seconds and that basicly gives the fight to you!
and those numbers are on a raven with ECM on a non ECM ship, the numbers are much higher useing ideal conditions ie jamming a gedden in a scorp!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
2. Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies, NOT locking them.
I like that, too. Makes them a bit less powerful but still lets them do what they do. Makes frigs with Jammers less ridiculous when they get lucky jamming a battleship. Avoids battleship pilot having to go make a cup of tea while he relocks.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Xaeon
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:14:00 -
[28]
I think that EW strengths should be reduced overall, while EW boats should have bonuses enough to bring EW back to it's current state. It means that those ships designed for using EW will be more effective than they currently are (by comparison) and you won't have EW being carried as much on non-ew boats.
In that sense it should be v.similar to turrets on ships - on the right ship a MPL can be bloody powerful, stick it on the wrong ship and it's no longer so useful.
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23/03/06 - Chapter III: The Campaign of Keshirou
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Jacinto Naysmith
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:30:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jacinto Naysmith on 04/05/2006 13:31:47
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Gronsak
its overpowered no matter how u put it nafari
put one racial on a ship and your target had almost zero chance and you dont even need high skills!
thats a lie
I use EW a lot but I only have mediocre skills, and Nafri is right. Theres no way I'd count on one racial jammer jamming a target unless they were a frigate. Against a battleship, try 2 or 3.
EW shoujld be effective equiped on any ship, not just specialized EW boats. When the only thing you can put in your midslots are "shield tanks or warp scramblers" its a hell of a lot more boring.
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Kalaan Oratay
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Posted - 2006.05.04 13:32:00 -
[30]
Give all ECMs a 100 second cooldown accross the board.
ECM ships gain the additional attribute:
Electronic Warfare Skill Bonus: 15% bonus reduction to ECM cooldown per level.
My shortsightedness doesnt see any problems with this, does anyone else?
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