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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |

Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
242
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There goes EVE-kill, then.
Pretty much. That's something which cannot be copy-pasted into Eve as you've stated there are parts like Eve-Kills which are valid in here. But for other stuff they may be valid... not my place to decide but there it stands.
"What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |

Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
242
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Option 1 is actually highly viable; it's so viable that it's the industry standard.
I'd hate it, of course, but that doesn't make it unviable.
As member of the staff shouldn't you be objective and not tell us your personal choice including your reasoning for it in order to keep this vote objective as possible? "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |

Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
1555
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Number one please.
This is a game about spaceships, blowing up spaceships, and assorted economical results from that. Getting your spaceship blown up does not give you license to harass other people.
People who say "OMG U (derogatory term for a homosexual male) U ganked me!" deserve to be shown the door. EVE Online should not get a reputation for allowing bigotry and intolerance, no matter the circumstance it happens in. The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4155
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There goes EVE-kill, then.
Pretty much. That's something which cannot be copy-pasted into Eve as you've stated there are parts like Eve-Kills which are valid in here. But for other stuff they may be valid... not my place to decide but there it stands.
Heck, even if you take the "third party site" out of the equation, sharing killmails goes bye-bye, too. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Gregor Parud
375
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Your options are basically biased to number 2, which I believe is your preferred course of action. While I want to believe you were trying to be fair, options 1 and 3 are throw-away/straw man courses of action that are not plausible.
All of this isn't a hard thing to accept, CCP is a business and will run it's business as they see fit. If they feel they need to update the EULA or change their policies, they will and they don't need a poll from the General Discussion boards or CSM input to do it. If you don't like the decisions that they are making, then learn to live with it or vote with your wallet. It's not hard.
That's because both #1 and #3 ARE silly, not just because he tried to present them as being silly. Also, he's gathering general consensus which, being a CSM member, seems like a good thing to do. I'll agree that there's at least a small amount of trolling going on, this being Malcanis, but that doesn't necessarily take anything away from the discussion. |

Catherine Wolfisheim
Born Crazy
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:That's because both #1 and #3 ARE silly, not just because he tried to present them as being silly. Also, he's gathering general consensus which, being a CSM member, seems like a good thing to do. I'll agree that there's at least a small amount of trolling going on, this being Malcanis, but that doesn't necessarily take anything away from the discussion.
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:As member of the staff shouldn't you be objective and not tell us your personal choice including your reasoning for it in order to keep this vote objective as possible? Not necessarily, that's the ethical thing to do, but not the one he must do. |

Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
40
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
2,35 but round it down to 2 for simplicity |

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1296
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
I was going to point out how there's probably a viable spectrum of solutions between the three presented options.
Then I saw people actually choosing option 1.
Fck 'em.
Option 2. |

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
1010
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
None of those options unfortunately. .. |

Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
245
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Catherine Wolfisheim wrote:Not necessarily, that's the ethical thing to do, but not the one he must do.
dunno about you but I hope he wish to be ethical in this case. Sharing with us his opinons on the matter is doing a disservice to this entire endeavor. "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
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Prie Mary
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
2
If CCP set firm definitive lines on harassment people would find ways around the guidelines set as clearly some people put a lot of time and effort into griefing others.
As we grow up we are taught the difference between right and wrong. I would like to believe 99% of the eve community can at least tell the difference.
Any questionable activitys need to be investigated and delt with on a case by case basis.
If you question a activity in game, and feel compelled to ask a GM for guidance as to if its right or wrong, deep down, you know its wrong, don't do it.
Dont just think outside the box, Live outside of it... |

Grookshank
Dondrinesoft
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:51:00 -
[42] - Quote
Option 2 please.
Drawing a clear line - like in option 1 - would: a) Ruin a special aspect of Eve. b) Not be of any help anyways; since people would just try to tip-toe the line as close as possible.
Option 3 is impractical.
Let's please trust ourselves in our judgement; even if we disagreed on "The Bonus Round". |

Prince Kobol
1600
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:53:00 -
[43] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Number one please.
This is a game about spaceships, blowing up spaceships, and assorted economical results from that. Getting your spaceship blown up does not give you license to harass other people.
People who say "OMG U (derogatory term for a homosexual male) U ganked me!" deserve to be shown the door. EVE Online should not get a reputation for allowing bigotry and intolerance, no matter the circumstance it happens in.
Well you could argue that has been going on for years with Eve with people commonly referring to others who like to earn isk as "Jew"
You could also argue the term "Rapecage"is highly offensive.
Personally I would take option 2 all day long simply because whilst option 1 is used in most games, none of those games have the kind of playerbase we have.
By that I mean the kind of player base that embraces emergent gameplay, metagmaing and will always try to find new and interesting ways around the rules.
|

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6325
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
The options given are pretty bad, since clearly (2) is the only realistic option and they all seem to be besides the point anyway. The point of the objections to the announcement seem to be inconsistency of application, which in turn creates requests of further clarification and a sense of arbitrary use of power by CCP, which in turn creates feelings of insecurity and injustice. Some people don't get why doing relatively harmless things on their own are a perma ban offense, while death threats and racism are seemingly being excused by pleading to an emotional state. This seems silly to some, since that will include about 99% of all death threat cases. Each case of course separate, but surely there are a lot of shared criteria that influence the decision making process.
That in mind what I would propose is that the current rules are fine, but try to get CCP to expand on what things are considered when making such decisions. So instead of trying to argue where the fuzzy line should be placed, get them to talk about the criteria at least a little and maybe give few major ones as examples of things taken to account when deciding such cases. This would not make the line clear, but it would help provide a compass for the people struggling with using their own common sense. Is emotional state a big factor in general or is it only considered when the target has intentionally goaded the other side? What about one time events versus behavior that has continued for an extended period of time? Is the humane behavior of the accused a mitigating factor after it has become clear, that the other player is in anguish? You get the general idea. |

Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
245
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Heck, even if you take the "third party site" out of the equation, sharing killmails goes bye-bye, too.
well think about it, people can set their public killmails profile to public\private then instead of named pilot on the kill you only get the ship type and all other details.
"What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |

Catherine Wolfisheim
Born Crazy
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:dunno about you but I hope he wish to be ethical in this case. Sharing with us his opinons on the matter is doing a disservice to this entire endeavor. CCP is by no means obligated to listen to Malcanis' input or to give clear definitions on something as broad and generic as harassment which is done case-to-case, and a generic rule will only bring complications.
To be honest, it's more of a casual gathering of opinions that are narrowed down for people already by someone else to avoid a discussion that is not entirely controlled within certain bounds. |

DJentropy Ovaert
Crazy Bird Inc. The Fire Nation Syndicate
203
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:56:00 -
[47] - Quote
None of the above.
The options are presented in such a way that #1 and #3 are utterly silly, and #2 is basically "Do nothing and keep things just how they are."
If you want feedback and provide a list of three options to chose from, with two of the options being totally against the spirit of the game - I am left to assume you are being sarcastic and don't want any feedback, which seems a bit odd coming from a member of the CSM.
Branching off the cookie cutter list: I want CCP to clearly, in black and white terms to define what "harassment" is. Of course, there will be some gray area (there always will be), but this recent drama with Erotica 1 simply proves that clear and concise rules that are provided to all players in regards to what is unacceptable behavior need to be provided.
Otherwise, we stick with the status quo. Which, as it seems to many of us - is simply "Get a CSM member and/or a popular blogger to present a one sided story and cause a bunch of blow back - and it just might cause CCP to start issuing bans without even bothering to explain to the community what rules were violated, how they were violated, and what action was taken."
The lack of transparency shown lately by CCP only serves to fuel vicious rumors, player base discontent, and general confusion as to what the rules even are in the first place.
Also, perhaps it is a good time to require all players to be of legal adult age in their county of origin in order to hold an account. I don't like name calling, cursing and smacktalk personally, but I have no desire to try to control what other people say. Ensuring that no under age players are using this service would simplify things in my opinion.
Fix it. |

Grayland Aubaris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
#2 |

Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
245
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: Well you could argue that has been going on for years with Eve with people commonly referring to others who like to earn isk as "Jew"
As a Jewish myself I find this offensive and this is one reason red lines should be made and the rules should be more clear. "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |

Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1757
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
Where is the option that involves fairly dealing with players outside of pressure from blog post and threats to run to the media? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
884
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Please can you help the CSM by choosing which of the three courses of action the CSM should recommend to CCP as the way forward.
As you are all no doubt aware, CCP Falcon, the leader of the EVE Community Team, yesterday published a communication on the subject of player harrassment. As might be expected, this issue, and CCP's reply, has caused a certain amount of contention. The main point of contention seems to be that CCP refuse to give an exact definition of what constitutes harrassment and abuse, instead requiring players to exercise judgement and discretion in their communication with outher players.
In other to get some actual numbers into the discussion, please can you select from one of the following three options for the CSM to present to CCP as the opinion of the community.:
(1) CCP should define abuse and harrassment at the lowest level possible so that essentially any potentially offensive communication is deemed unacceptable, and everyone has a clear idea of where the line is: don't say anything bad at all to another player. This is the choice of virtually every MMO in the game industry.
(2) CCP should continue with the status quo, and trust the members of the EVE community to have the adult intelligence and humanity to exercise discretion in how far they can take their communication with other players. And having exercised that discretion, to also be aware that we're all members of the game community and that while every kind of in-game space-villainy is legitimate, we're all actual human beings behind the screen and we should be careful with our out of game actions to each other. This option is, so far as I am aware, unique to CCP and EVE; if other MMOs place this level of trust and faith in their players I am unaware of them.
(3) CCP should stand back and allow without comment the members of the community complete free reign in using CCP's IP and property to engage in and facilitate whatever activities they desire, regardless of damage done and regardless of the clear trend of escalating unpleasantness. This option, so far as I am aware, is not available anywhere and may in fact contravene the laws of quite a few nations including several which comprise large sections of the EVE playerbase.
With the unfair ban on erotica 1 i am going to join Feyd's pay it forward jihad https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=330221&find=unread Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
4662
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Please can you help the CSM by choosing which of the three courses of action the CSM should recommend to CCP as the way forward. .
Trixy CSMses. You can't fools us. We knows the answers, don't we precious?
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |

DJentropy Ovaert
Crazy Bird Inc. The Fire Nation Syndicate
204
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:59:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Where is the option that involves fairly dealing with players outside of pressure from blog post and threats to run to the media?
/thread
|

Gregor Parud
377
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 10:59:00 -
[54] - Quote
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:None of the above.
The options are presented in such a way that #1 and #3 are utterly silly, and #2 is basically "Do nothing and keep things just how they are."
If you want feedback and provide a list of three options to chose from, with two of the options being totally against the spirit of the game - I am left to assume you are being sarcastic and don't want any feedback, which seems a bit odd coming from a member of the CSM.
Branching off the cookie cutter list: I want CCP to clearly, in black and white terms to define what "harassment" is. Of course, there will be some gray area (there always will be), but this recent drama with Erotica 1 simply proves that clear and concise rules that are provided to all players in regards to what is unacceptable behavior need to be provided.
Otherwise, we stick with the status quo. Which, as it seems to many of us - is simply "Get a CSM member and/or a popular blogger to present a one sided story and cause a bunch of blow back - and it just might cause CCP to start issuing bans without even bothering to explain to the community what rules were violated, how they were violated, and what action was taken."
The lack of transparency shown lately by CCP only serves to fuel vicious rumors, player base discontent, and general confusion as to what the rules even are in the first place.
Also, perhaps it is a good time to require all players to be of legal adult age in their county of origin in order to hold an account. I don't like name calling, cursing and smacktalk personally, but I have no desire to try to control what other people say. Ensuring that no under age players are using this service would simplify things in my opinion.
Fix it.
The only thing that clear rules will do is that people will find loopholes in them. "don't be stupid and if you are we'll decide what to do with you" is a much better rule, partly because of the basic nature of EVE and mostly because being able to determine the borders on your own is part of being a normal human being. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14787
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:00:00 -
[55] - Quote
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Branching off the cookie cutter list: I want CCP to clearly, in black and white terms to define what "harassment" is.
This is option (1). If you want to force CCP to give a rigid definition of what harrassment is, then they will be forced to set the bar at a far lower level than we're currently used to: essentially any unpleasant communication will be sanctioned.
You sure you want the CSM to advise CCP to down down that route?
1 Kings 12:11
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Aivo Dresden
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
314
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
Yea like other's have said, EVE is about shooting spaceships. Harassment just has no place in a game. People come here to have fun and sure I'm not one to 'define' a good time for others but I think we can all agree that having a good time should not mean someone else gets abused, harassed, mentally tormented, offended, ...
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Salvos Rhoska
883
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:01:00 -
[57] - Quote
Does OP represent the unified position of the entire CSM? ------------ |

Dave Stark
4826
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
within the context of eve, 2. |

Prince Kobol
1600
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:Prince Kobol wrote: Well you could argue that has been going on for years with Eve with people commonly referring to others who like to earn isk as "Jew"
As a Jewish myself I find this offensive and this is one reason red lines should be made and the rules should be more clear.
Here is a great example, you find people using the word Jew in this context offensive and that is completely understandable.
Now this has come under discussion before, many people who state they are Jewish and have no issues with people using the word Jew in this context.
Who is right?
|

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14787
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Does OP represent the unified position of the entire CSM?
The OP is gathering information.
1 Kings 12:11
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