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DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.05.04 22:34:00 - [61] Quote: In other words, AFs have their own problems, and as Maya and others point out, changing interceptors wonÆt fix AFs. No, the other reason why AF suck would be oversized nosferatu and oversized drone tracking, and for ships which rely heavily on their ability to soak up damage rather than evade.. it becomes a big issue but not one exclusive to AF. Any ship trying to tank where oversized nosferatu are present will simply fail - end of story, and thats an issue all of its own. Nosferatu for example are getting counter modules going by Tuxford's latest blog. The issue of AF versus Inty really comes down to damage. You can't solve anything by boosting AF damage, because they already do enough to take on cruisers and battleships. All you do is fix the discrepancy between the two ship classes, at the sacrifice of gamplay (getting ganked left and right) all because some people can't get used to the idea that INTERCEPTORS ARE NOT PRIMARY COMBAT SHIPS. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.04 22:51:00 - [62] INTERCEPTORS ARE COMBAT SHIPS AND ALLWAYS HAVE BEEN, GET OVER IT. And sigh, fleet defence is generally NOT within Nos range of the enemy. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.04 22:54:00 - [63] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Maya Rkell 3. Yes, they will. You're talking about 10 mil ships with less firepower than T1 frigates. Yeah, Inties do ****-poor damage. There aren't a several inties out there that can do heavy damage... That was aimed at the people who want to remove both damage bonuses from them. Which WOULD take their damage below that of T2 ships. I am using them for the job they were designed for - killing frigates at close range. I'd remind you that interceptors were given a weak 4th bonus, which in many cases really very little indeed for the average combat setup. You'd have to fix that if you gave AF's a 4th bonus. Octavio Santillian, yes, something needs to be done in 0.1-0.4 for 'dictors. Warp inaccuracy bubble, maybe. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2006.05.04 23:21:00 - [64] Interceptors are fine. There are plenty of counters to interceptors. The reason people don't fly assault frigates isn't because interceptors do too much damage. Interceptors can only do decent damage in a close range setup. Assault frigs can still do good damage from range. The problem with assault frigates is that they are too damn slow! Assault frigates should move at roughly the same speed as their T1 versions. The same way as HACs move at roughly the same speed as cruisers. ________________ ~Phelan Lore Your isk has become my isk, by way of my actions...
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.05.04 23:39:00 - [65] Forcing ships into well defined roles isn't the same as forcing them to be less versatile when fitted for a role. There is no need to force each and every interceptor into a tackler role, there are other ways to limit the versatility of ships that are too versatile (i.e. can do too much with the same setup). More options and more choices are good, something that a strictly defined and narrow role limiting completely the fitting options (and not what a particular setup, or another, can and cannot do) does not provide. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
cytomatrix	Posted - 2006.05.04 23:50:00 - [66] This is really getting on my nerves. Stealth bombers are frigate killers live with it. IF you cant quit playing eve. CCP is not gonna change stealth bombers into assault bombers. AF and Inties are for killing frigates in fleet battle. You cant take Stealth bomber to fleet battles, unless you are insane. LEAVE THE BOMBERS ALONE FFS!!!!!!
Jimmycs83	Posted - 2006.05.04 23:52:00 - [67] Originally by: Maya Rkell INTERCEPTORS ARE COMBAT SHIPS AND ALLWAYS HAVE BEEN, GET OVER IT. And sigh, fleet defence is generally NOT within Nos range of the enemy. the point bieng then that they shouldnt be. How they are now, or were previously, or how the were designed or what interceptor means is pretty irrelevant tbh. It would be alot better imo to have to have mixed frig fleets (for raids etc) where interceptors NEED to have afs in for dealing dmg rather than what we have now which is alot of pure inty fleets capable of dealing alot of dmg and evade pretty much everthing due to their natural speed and low sig rasius and practically unstoppable to-warp speeds. Basically the reason i see interceptors as bieng a problem is not that they are the best frig killers, or the best tacklers (atleast not in 0.0) and not because they can evade large turrets but simply because they fill too many roles which discourages team play which is what this is all about .. right?
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.04 23:58:00 - [68] Originally by: Jimmycs83 because they fill too many roles which discourages team play which is what this is all about .. right? 1 interceptor on their own can't do too much as it is - you need larger groups of them to kill larger things. Think wolves - you need 5+ to take down an elk (battleship) and a few to kill a deer (cruiser). Hmmm, maybe the next poster can use a car analogy? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:06:00 - [69] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2006 00:07:14 dp "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
dalman	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:07:00 - [70] ZOMG! Unbelievable! After 2 years of preaching some other players agrees with me And I see Maya is still doing the same argumentation... And the only answer to that is: the current use of the word 'interceptor' in today's RL warfare is rly wrong and not what it means. And the real meaning has been quoted to you many times. Given that EVE is some thousand years into the future, then one could assume someone in the military has understood what the word actually means. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:07:00 - [71] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2006 00:08:28 Originally by: Jimmycs83 Originally by: Maya Rkell INTERCEPTORS ARE COMBAT SHIPS AND ALLWAYS HAVE BEEN, GET OVER IT. And sigh, fleet defence is generally NOT within Nos range of the enemy. the point bieng then that they shouldnt be. How they are now, or were previously, or how the were designed or what interceptor means is pretty irrelevant tbh. No, he did not mean that. He used the words "ARE NOT", present tense. And right, you really think that a "mixed" fleet would use expensive inties rather than very very nearly as effective T1 frigs? You CAN throw them away, and close to within 7.5km for 2 point jams. And no, a lot of inties are very narrow in role. Sure you have a case that the Stilleto needs to be alteres away from a 4-mid design. cytomatrix, if a brick's a brick it's a brick. If it's silly that bombers are anti-frig and it cuts into the AF's role, then it's so and a change would be good for the AF. And you're right, it's FAR too limited right now. Heh. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:09:00 - [72] "the current use of the word 'interceptor' in today's RL warfare is rly wrong and not what it means" Cite in a peer-reviewed historical paper, kthx "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Jimmycs83	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:11:00 - [73] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Jimmycs83 because they fill too many roles which discourages team play which is what this is all about .. right? 1 interceptor on their own can't do too much as it is - you need larger groups of them to kill larger things. Think wolves - you need 5+ to take down an elk (battleship) and a few to kill a deer (cruiser). Hmmm, maybe the next poster can use a car analogy? well the point i was trying to make (at 2in the mornin so probably not making too much sense hehe) was that, specifically in gangs of four or five guys you should have to think .. "ok we got a couple of fast scouts with scramblers .. now we need some dmg dealers" ... and not "hey lets just go in all inties so we can easily move through any 0.0 region without getting cauight and not have to worry about dmg coz we cant do that much more with an AF anyway". oh and one interceptor can be a royal pain in the ass in any system where there is a mining op going on
Jimmycs83	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:19:00 - [74] Originally by: Maya Rkell And right, you really think that a "mixed" fleet would use expensive inties rather than very very nearly as effective T1 frigs? You CAN throw them away, and close to within 7.5km for 2 point jams. yeah i really do ... i tihnk even without any guns at all people would still use them for tackling in certain circumstances just for their superoir speed and ability to outrun drones and gun tracking. i dont think that they extra speed count for nothing and remember if we lost dmg bonus' from inties then theyd have to be replaced by something.
slip66	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:20:00 - [75] Originally by: Vina Edited by: Vina on 04/05/2006 19:41:53 With the upcoming change to AF sig radius, I think we need to have a good look at interceptors. They need a role change... from frigs that do damage to... INTERCEPTORS! dun dun dun. Give them web/scram bonuses perhaps some with range, perhaps some with points/effectivness bonuses. Give assault frigates back their killer role! Aye if you agree! OMG AYE!11! they should do the same dmg as a t1 only be better tacklers/faster. Originally by: StOrM ViPeR Theres a skill called surgical strike in game I've learned that it actually stands for Band of Brothers
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:23:00 - [76] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2006 00:23:57 Originally by: Jimmycs83 Originally by: Maya Rkell And right, you really think that a "mixed" fleet would use expensive inties rather than very very nearly as effective T1 frigs? You CAN throw them away, and close to within 7.5km for 2 point jams. yeah i really do ... i tihnk even without any guns at all people would still use them for tackling in certain circumstances just for their superoir speed and ability to outrun drones and gun tracking. i dont think that they extra speed count for nothing and remember if we lost dmg bonus' from inties then theyd have to be replaced by something. You cannot outrun drones and remain within 7.5km. You cannot remain within 20km and keep 20km scramblers up if you have a nos on you. If you're reasonable close, that ship isn't hitting you with a large turret ANYWAY. And you can afford to throw that same gang 20 or more times with T1 frigs than one round of T2 frigs. They'd get a "bonus" which would in the end be pointless because T1 frigs are just not that much worse when you consider the average lifespan of a tackling frig. And slip, that idea is for them to lose BOTH bonuses. LESS damage than a T1 frig. Plus obviously the highslot cull as well. TuRtLe HeAd, yes, the Stilleto needs changing. The others allready DO intercept just fine. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:23:00 - [77] Originally by: Vina Edited by: Vina on 04/05/2006 19:41:53 With the upcoming change to AF sig radius, I think we need to have a good look at interceptors. They need a role change... from frigs that do damage to... INTERCEPTORS! dun dun dun. Give them web/scram bonuses perhaps some with range, perhaps some with points/effectivness bonuses. Give assault frigates back their killer role! Aye if you agree! AMEN ! Give Assualt frigs the Damage bonus and make interceptors do what ..err.. interceptors do, intercept stuff and like intercept stuff.
Jimmycs83	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:33:00 - [78] Edited by: Jimmycs83 on 05/05/2006 00:33:37 well maya you just seem to think that if you take a dmg bonus away from an interceptor and replace it with a tackling bonus then all inties would be useless .. which is complete rubbish. Personally i dont think they should do LESS dmg than a T1 frig ... just that if your looking for a dmg dealing frigate you should be thinking of an AF and not an inty - not how it is now coz an inty can basically do most of what an AF can do and alot more. anyway personally the thing id most like to see on interceptors would be for scramblers to use 0 cap on them as a special bonus ... then even with a heavy nos on you youd still be able to hold your target down. YAY
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:36:00 - [79] No The others are damage dealing frigs. Assualt means assualt. As far as i'm concerned and many brethren are it is they who should deal the damage not interceptors. Currently interceptors DO tackle just fine, but they also Deal Damage also. I feel that the Damage should be applied to another role of ship and a ceptor should get a different sort of tackling bonus, return the damage modifier to 5% per level instead of 10% P.S. Mayam I love the stiletto, now thats a real Tackler.
Imode	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:37:00 - [80] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2006 00:23:57 Originally by: Jimmycs83 Originally by: Maya Rkell And right, you really think that a "mixed" fleet would use expensive inties rather than very very nearly as effective T1 frigs? You CAN throw them away, and close to within 7.5km for 2 point jams. yeah i really do ... i tihnk even without any guns at all people would still use them for tackling in certain circumstances just for their superoir speed and ability to outrun drones and gun tracking. i dont think that they extra speed count for nothing and remember if we lost dmg bonus' from inties then theyd have to be replaced by something. You cannot outrun drones and remain within 7.5km. You cannot remain within 20km and keep 20km scramblers up if you have a nos on you. If you're reasonable close, that ship isn't hitting you with a large turret ANYWAY. And you can afford to throw that same gang 20 or more times with T1 frigs than one round of T2 frigs. They'd get a "bonus" which would in the end be pointless because T1 frigs are just not that much worse when you consider the average lifespan of a tackling frig. And slip, that idea is for them to lose BOTH bonuses. LESS damage than a T1 frig. Plus obviously the highslot cull as well. TuRtLe HeAd, yes, the Stilleto needs changing. The others allready DO intercept just fine. I think the problem is not about how well they intercept, but about how they can do just about everything else fine too. I think its a good idea to drop the damage to below that of a t1 frig, but increase its survivability through tackling bonuses. For example, much like the recon cruisers, a bonus to tackling or webbing range, giving a +2 scram and web range outside a med nos and a +1 scram range outside a heavy nos. While we're at it... blockade runners have a +2 warp strength bonus built in. How about giving interceptors a +2 warp scramble strength bonus? ____________________________ Signature file size to large, please keep it under 24000 bytes - Petwraith How's this? -imo
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:42:00 - [81] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2006 00:42:12 TuRtLe HeAd, correct, that is what an interceptor DOES - destroy things. AF's have a different role from interceptors speed and close-range firepower, as fleet defence and wolfpack heavies. And the Stilleto needs altering per the majorty of people in this thread, so... Imode, AF's can waltz through damage which leaves inties burning junk. They can stick by the flank of a fleet even if a BS targets them at mid range. They can be set up for massive close-range damage and risk the web. And if they can tackle beyond 25km, they just became the new gank tool with really NO realistic defence en-mass against them. There's a reason long range scramblers are so limited in their numbers and cost. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:47:00 - [82] you seem to have a different view to their roles as to every one else in this game.
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:48:00 - [83] So according to many people in this thread, intereceptor means a ship that intercepts and destroys incoming ships? Ask yourself what that means in the context of most other ships in the game and you will see why this is wrong Anyway I agree, the main role of interceptors is to catch things quickly with the interest of holding them down, and they're crap at it atm. There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:49:00 - [84] No Turtle, I've got the same view as even quite a few people in this thread - that Inties don't need to be broken. Neon Genesis, yep. And what does it mean? Um, that they have a nice unique role and there's no need to upset it. AF/Bombers/Destroyers and their overlapping roles, now... "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Beowulf Scheafer	Posted - 2006.05.05 00:51:00 - [85] Originally by: Ithildin Interceptors have been needing a redefinition and rebalance for more than a year now. The community has been crying out for the tacklers to become tacklers instead of damage dealer wannabes. i, and nobody i know personally, have ever stated that. so your post is just wrong. i like my interceptor as it is.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.05.05 01:14:00 - [86] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 05/05/2006 01:15:08 Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 04/05/2006 22:17:44 If you don't want RL parrallels, then hows about starwars: Interceptor = A-wing/Tie Interceptor - Fast little things that kill other fighters, relying on speed and missile batteries. TIE Interceptors are not fitted with missile batteries. They also both get squashed like a bug by a Tau Gunboat or B-Wing. edit: And I've got a copy of x-wing alliance installed on my PC if you'd like to see. Originally by: Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.05.05 01:22:00 - [87] Originally by: Maya Rkell That was aimed at the people who want to remove both damage bonuses from them. Which WOULD take their damage below that of T2 ships. Hey, here's a thought: Until I see you complaining that AFs are slower and heavier than T1 frigs, you need to quit yer ***ing about inties being put under t1 frig damage. Inties were made to tackle, you know this, and if you don't stfu with the RL analogies, someone's going to get bored and put your in your place by citing other ships that dont fit 'rl setups'. AFs lose speed and agility, gain offense and defense. Inties would lose damage, and gain massive speed/agility and tackler abilities. WTF is so hard for some of you to accept inties, a ship made to tackle, as being a TACKLER. If it's just the name, then just stfu, or give CCP a good 'rl name' for a vessel that would 'tackle irl.' Originally by:** Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.05.05 01:27:00 - [88] Originally by: Maya Rkell Um, that they have a nice unique role and there's no need to upset it. AF/Bombers/Destroyers and their overlapping roles, now... Disagree! Interceptors don't have a unique role. And btw before you consider the overlapping of things.. From the ItemDB descriptions: Destroyer - Anti-frigate gunboats. Assault Ships - Sturdy and powerful frigates built for all-out combat. By your logic Interceptors are not tacklers but merely ships that "intercept" incoming targets (wtf?). Which is typically what an anti-frigate ship like the Destroyer is supposed to do (look at the bonuses!). And even if I were to agree with that, it doesn't explain why they have to have the power of Assault Ships and participate in all-out-combat. As I see it, its Interceptors that have no role and overlap onto other ships. Removing the extra damage and giving them stealth/tackle bonuses does not break them. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.05 01:38:00 - [89] Yes, and itemDB describes all sorts of things, some descriptions are odd and some just wrong as well. Certainly letting it define gameplay is an extremely bad idea. The role of an interceptor is really quite clearly defined, it goes out and destroys the enemy's tacklers and screen, as well as being a personal transport because of its speed. An AF has a role as part of the screen which interceptors fight, for which is has an individual superiority, and also a role backing up interceptors when they are moving in packs because it can do more damage at close range when correctly configured. Destroyers are also screen. Bombers are also wolfpack heavies. The closest thing to an interceptor are the T1 "attack" frigates such as the Rifter. In practice, the overlapping spheres of the bomber/destroyer/assualt frigate are what truly need attention. Nerfing interceptors would just lead to their extermination in favour of T1 tacklers which did the same job and which are disposable. They don't have "extra" damage, that damage is what they do. The ship which is out of place in the Interceptor scheme of things is the Stiletto, not the other 7 ships. Fix the Stilleto! "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Imode	Posted - 2006.05.05 01:52:00 - [90] Originally by: Maya Rkell Imode, AF's can waltz through damage which leaves inties burning junk. They can stick by the flank of a fleet even if a BS targets them at mid range. They can be set up for massive close-range damage and risk the web. And if they can tackle beyond 25km, they just became the new gank tool with really NO realistic defence en-mass against them. There's a reason long range scramblers are so limited in their numbers and cost. If I setup my cruiser with a fat tank and an anti-frigate setup, I'm going to kill your frigate. I don't care if its, a tech 1, an interceptor or an assault frigate. However, if I setup my cruiser with a fat tank without an anti-frigate setup, the Interceptor will have a definite chance at killing me but surely not in the 15-20 seconds it currently takes right now. ____________________________ Signature file size to large, please keep it under 24000 bytes - Petwraith How's this? -imo

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