| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: I had to put in the effort to get it there in the first place. Why should you be able to just come along and undo all of that for absolutely nothing?
Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.
To facilitate this CCP could just copy and paste the code over from Mobile Depots - hey presto it automatically decays/unanhors if abandoned for thirty days. No more moons for free. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. Yeah, no. It takes a bit more than that. Unless we're talking about low or null, but in that case, you can already get rid of it very easily so there's no need for any change. Quote:It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it. So, potentially months and months of mission grinding and/or a crapton of ISK spent on tags?
No. High sec corps acquire standings through other activities anyway. Even when it does require "months and months of mission grinding" that isn't a reason to allow a corp to reserve resources indefinitely without investing further isk/effort. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Sapheni wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:I had to put in the effort to get it there in the first place. Why should you be able to just come along and undo all of that for absolutely nothing? Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it. To facilitate this CCP could just copy and paste the code over from Mobile Depots - hey presto it automatically decays/unanhors if abandoned for thirty days. No more moons for free. Yup, I didn't have to get standing or individually sit there positioning modules or anything. And the point is, when I put it up, nobody was there. I didn't boot someone out of their space for zero cost, which is what you want. On top of that, if you are too poor and too risk averse to wardec a random inactive corp, what possible hope do you think you'd stand in keeping a POS? It's not like they never get war decced. If I want to have a POS and I want to save fuel between periods of use, that's my business. If you don't like it, you already have the tools to stop me. So quit bitching and use the tools.
There's people who quite happily destroy abandoned towers for free. No cost to me at all. However, the point is that your attitude is wrong. This mechanic allows you to reserve an asset indefinitely without further investment of time/cost/effort. This is quite contrary to... well everything else in EVE. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:No. High sec corps acquire standings through other activities anyway. GǪand that doesn't remove the fact that it takes a fair bit of effort to put up a POS GÇö if you just try to warp in and anchor it, you simply won't be allowed to.
Maybe I've missed something during the hundreds of times I've set up towers in high/low/null sec over the last ten years, but warping in and anchoring is essentially all that it takes: A few minutes of "effort".
Tippia wrote: So by the reasoning that it should take as much effort to tear one down as it does to put one up, the attackers will have to go through the same grind. In other words, it's a pretty lousy measure to use for what should be needed.
"Grind" that pays? So they'd get paid for shooting the POS instead of having to pay a war dec fee?
Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:Even when it does require "months and months of mission grinding" that isn't a reason to allow a corp to reserve resources indefinitely without investing further isk/effort. The good news is that corps already can't really do that. Nothing is being reserved for you and if you don't invest any ISK or effort, you'll lose the spot sooner or later.
This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way. If it wasn't a problem then this topic wouldn't pop up on the forum every so often. They normally include stats (active:abandoned per system within x jumps of y hub), but hey, you can still check for yourself, although I should caution that it might require more effort than it does to set up a control tower... |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Not really... You can leave everything in stations for all eternity. Not even characters get deleted even after years of inactivity. I'd say it's more against EVE to allow people to simply take stuff with no effort. They have a system in place already to clear moons, it's not difficult, like you rightly pointed out, so use it. We don't need yet another automatic mechanic to account for people's laziness.
Leaving assets/characters in stations doesn't effect other players in any way. However, leaving a tower in space to deliberately block a moon does affect other players and requires disproportionate effort to rectify. You've already admitted to abusing this mechanic for this reason so I don't think you get to accuse other players of being "lazy". |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way. GǪexcept that you can't do that in EVE. Again, nothing is reserved, and if left unattended it will be gone sooner or later. Definitely sooner if it's blocking other players in any way. It's only a GǣproblemGǥ because people don't want to use the tools at their disposal for some unexplained reason, even though it's pretty much effortless to do so, especially compared to actually putting the tower up to begin with.
Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing. Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless". |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing. Yes, if you want to put up a POS you obviously have to put in the effort required to put up a POSGǪ but we're talking about pulling down a POS, which according to you should take just as much effort and which as a result GÇö as anyone who has actually put up a highsec POS knows GÇö would therefore have to require a whole lot more than just warping in and pushing a few buttons. As someone who has allegedly set up hundreds of POSes, you should know this already tooGǪ
Shall I explain the POS interface because it sounds like you haven't used it. A player, let's call him Lucas Kell, warps to a moon. He selects the control tower in his cargo hold, pushes the 'launch for corp' button, finds and selects it in space, moves a little box around and then selects anchor. That's it. It takes a few button pushes and he now controls that space indefinitely (and probably wants a medal for his oh-so-difficult work) unless another player is prepared to put in additional effort, time and isk to remove it.
Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless". I would if I had ever said anything of the kind, but I haven't so I won't.
Try re-reading your previous posts. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Sapheni wrote:Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way. GǪexcept that you can't do that in EVE. Again, nothing is reserved, and if left unattended it will be gone sooner or later. Definitely sooner if it's blocking other players in any way. It's only a GǣproblemGǥ because people don't want to use the tools at their disposal for some unexplained reason, even though it's pretty much effortless to do so, especially compared to actually putting the tower up to begin with. Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing. Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless". First come first serve? If you don't want to put the effort into booting someone out of their space, find an empty moon. Remember, your POS will have exactly the same level of protection.
That's the point. All the moons are taken and far too many are occupied by lazy players who abuse a nonsensical mechanic. Incidentally, my POSs tend to have their shields on, so they have quite a bit more protection. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 21:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, you should instead explain the requirements to set up a highsec POS because it sounds like you flunked the exam on that one the first time around GÇö you keep leaving out a very crucial step that's required before the game even allows you to do the stuff you're describing. We've already discussed standings. Irrelevant.
Tippia wrote:You mean the ones where I don't say anything about replacing POSes or the effort required to do so? Done and done. The contrivance is all yours. Oh really. So when you said
Tippia wrote:Just grind that is soul-crushing and takes ages or costs a ton of money, and which increases in size the more people you involve You didn't mean that you thought that the initial effort required to set up a POS was in fact a "soul-crushing" grind...
Tippia wrote:It's only a GÇ£problemGÇ¥ because people don't want to use the tools at their disposal for some unexplained reason, even though it's pretty much effortless to do so ...and you didn't think the additional steps required to remove it were "pretty much effortless"? |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 21:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Sapheni wrote: Shall I explain the POS interface because it sounds like you haven't used it. A player, let's call him Lucas Kell, warps to a moon. He selects the control tower in his cargo hold, pushes the 'launch for corp' button, finds and selects it in space, moves a little box around and then selects anchor. That's it. It takes a few button pushes and he now controls that space indefinitely (and probably wants a medal for his oh-so-difficult work) unless another player is prepared to put in additional effort, time and isk to remove it.
You conveniently left out the part where you or someone had to grind FACTION standings for CORP (and not personal) until you are allowed to anchor it in a .5 or higher. If there is more than one person in your corp, and you are not all on the same page working toward this goal, achieving it can be more aggravating than probing-down an afk cloaker. Some corps spend months working to be able to launch their first high-sec POS.
No I didn't leave it out. I said it's not an issue for a high sec corp. Of course, like anything else, that assumes a certain level of competence. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 21:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Sapheni wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Sapheni wrote: Shall I explain the POS interface because it sounds like you haven't used it. A player, let's call him Lucas Kell, warps to a moon. He selects the control tower in his cargo hold, pushes the 'launch for corp' button, finds and selects it in space, moves a little box around and then selects anchor. That's it. It takes a few button pushes and he now controls that space indefinitely (and probably wants a medal for his oh-so-difficult work) unless another player is prepared to put in additional effort, time and isk to remove it.
You conveniently left out the part where you or someone had to grind FACTION standings for CORP (and not personal) until you are allowed to anchor it in a .5 or higher. If there is more than one person in your corp, and you are not all on the same page working toward this goal, achieving it can be more aggravating than probing-down an afk cloaker. Some corps spend months working to be able to launch their first high-sec POS. No I didn't leave it out. I said it's not an issue for a high sec corp. Of course, like anything else, that assumes a certain level of competence. Please explain exactly how it's not an issue for a high-sec corp? (Or any other corp). Competence does not really factor here, you either did the grind yourself or you paid someone to do it for you, where you live is not at issue.
Because the standings can be acquired as part of a career path that has nothing to do with POSs. The players who grind missions to put up POSs will be in a minority. Most do it for isk/LP/explosions; standings are a by-product than can be utilised later. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 22:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:LOL grinding up FACTION standings specifically for a CORP is not the same as quickly obtaining standings useful for YOUR career path. If it were that easy, there really would be a POS anchored on every moon.
Are you assuming that we're talking about large corps with lots of different players pulling in different directions? If you want to get faction standings quickly that would not be the way to do it. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 22:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Sapheni wrote:Doc Fury wrote:LOL grinding up FACTION standings specifically for a CORP is not the same as quickly obtaining standings useful for YOUR career path. If it were that easy, there really would be a POS anchored on every moon. Are you assuming that we're talking about large corps with lots of different players pulling in different directions? If you want to get faction standings quickly that would not be the way to do it. It does not really matter, it's not trivial to do even in a one-man corp.
Okay, if your aim is to set up a tower and you're starting fresh then yes, I accept that it is not trivial to get the required standings qucikly. However, for those who PvE for fun or for money, the objective is explosions or isk/LP; the standings are a by-product that accumulate in the background over the years. They do not require additional effort.
Doc Fury wrote:Paying a war dec, and being able to begin removing a tower in 24 hours is far, far less effort and investment then going through the hassle of grooming a corp's faction standings to be able to anchor it , and then maintaining the standings if you do have others in your corp and need to do it again, or move the original one. If you want to be able to attack/remove towers at will, then it's only fair that corps be able to anchor them at will assuming whoever anchors it meets the skill requirements.
Yes, paying a war dec and removing a tower is relatively cheap and quick (assuming no intereference), but replacing the tower with one of your own requires that you go through the same process as the corp that set up that tower. That effort therefore cancels out. The corp that wants to maintain the status quo can do so indefinitely at no additional cost whatsoever. I've got no objection to your suggestion that the standings thing be removed; the problem is that offline towers require no effort to maintain in that state, allowing the owner to exert a disproportionate effect on the game, either deliberately (e.g. Lucas Kell) or through ignorance/negligence. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 22:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
I assume you were being ironic about sloppiness; if you want to make up scenarios you need to be much more thorough. (Not an invitation to try btw.) In any case I think you've missed the point of this discussion. |

Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 23:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sapheni wrote:The corp that wants to maintain the status quo can do so indefinitely at no additional cost whatsoever. GǪaside from having to maintain and defend the tower, especially if the tower has any effect on the game. How much does an offline tower cost to maintain?
Tippia wrote:But again, the whole point was that you said that taking a tower down should take as much effort as putting it up. This means that taking a tower down must require the same kind of standings grind, the same kind of ISK investment, the same kind of very dull and long-winded process without any means of speeding it up (so the actual POS bash does not qualify).
a) Maintaining a tower requires an investment in standings/structures. Without any direct interference by either the owner or other players it will remain there indefinitely locking down a resource. b) Removing a tower requires 50m isk and the cost of ships/ammo. (Assuming the usual scenario where the offline tower is not defended) c) Replacing a tower requires the same effort/investment as both of the above.
Tippia wrote:You are trying to paint a picture that it should be made easier to remove a tower, and then you suggest a like-for-like relationship that must mean it demands a lot more effort than is currently the case.
No, that's not my picture, that's your strawman. The point is that players should have to pay to maintain an advantage through investment and/or effort. The assertion that it requires lots of effort to get to the point of deploying a tower that is then left offline is irrelevant because competitors will have to have invested the same time/effort (deliberately or otherwise) to be in the field. Starting at the same relative position one player has an advantage that he does not pay for; the other has to pay and waste hours shooting an offline POS to equalise. This is disproportionate.
The mechanism for changing this is not particularly important so long as players don't gain a relative advantage at no extra cost. I suggested the mobile depot to avoid the situation where a 300m isk tower unanchors to be scooped up by the first lucky pilot to come along. |
| |
|