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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Xune
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:25:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Xune on 06/05/2006 14:31:01
Edited by: Xune on 06/05/2006 14:27:06
 Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Xune
Originally by: Tuxford
By my numbers megathron is the second lightest tech 1 battleship with the third highest base speed. So apart from Typhoon and Tempest its the fastest one with mwd. So even when the arma or apoc fit an mwd mega still dictates the range.
it might be.. but still the differance is to low realy.. if ou ask me the vindicator got the right acceleration/agility... mega should get the same.
Vindicator has the same velocity as a mega but the is heavier. Of course I can just go ahead and increase the mass on the mega if you want that 
I know it is not much of a difference but given that both ships have the same stuff fitted (mwd, webber) then the armageddon can't get away from the mega once its in range.
Tux then thers somthing wrong
becouse a mega need from full stop to warp exactly 11 seconds with my skills and no propulsion mod
the vindicator needs 8.. and the vindi accelerate faster.. so
1: Im wrong with that after fying 7 months long the vindi
2: you looked not agility but mass
3: about the whole mwd on arma/mega. Sure a mwd IS a advantage if you have the option to fit them, but when its mandatory to fit 1 the advantage change to a penalty.
not that you think i dont like what you do for us blaster users *snuggles softly*
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/Xunecat/Barney.jpg
but there are some points left to take a look at.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:27:00 -
[32]
Edited by: keepiru on 06/05/2006 14:29:46
Yeah, but once you compare mega w/ mwd vs. arma/poc w/out then that brings up the questions "should we fix this" and "how".
So, do you think the mega should have as much fittings leftover when fitting neutron w/ mwd compared to arma/poc w/out, and if so, how?
Im not for or against the issue as such, just wondering exactly what your stance is on this, because i feel its unclear.
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Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ithildin
The Vindicator has about 33% better agility than any other battleship.
Damnit I specifically looked for the agility. Seems weird though I would have just given it less mass. It is more agile than mega but does travel slower with an ab or mwd though.
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Vortex Freeman
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:29:00 -
[34]
Did you forget the railguns?!?!?!?!?!? 
I'd very much like to see how they compare, why leave them out?
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<S>
~ Preparatus Supervivet ~ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:30:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Vortex Freeman
Did you forget the railguns?!?!?!?!?!?
I'd very much like to see how they compare, why leave them out?
Because I'm balancing blasters not railguns.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:32:00 -
[36]
Its probably a leftover from a much earlier version of eve. Think about how much weird stuff the faction bs had that only came out once they started being avaible to a decent degree - broken bonus on the rattlesnake, the ridicolous cap & fittings of the nightmare...
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Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Vortex Freeman
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:33:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Vortex Freeman on 06/05/2006 14:33:45
Originally by: Tuxford
Because I'm balancing blasters not railguns.
Yes but balancing compared to what? Sure rails are very different but it'd still be interesting to see how they compare and you did put torps in there. 
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~ Preparatus Supervivet ~ |
Vortex Freeman
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:39:00 -
[38]
Btw, when will Gallente get a blaster ship with a web range bonus? Since range is so critical to blaster fighting it'd make much sense for the Gallente to have a ship with web bonus. 10-15% per skill lvl is that reasonable? 15-17.5km range with a standard webber, dangerous but not uber.
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<S>
~ Preparatus Supervivet ~ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:39:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Vortex Freeman
Edited by: Vortex Freeman on 06/05/2006 14:33:45
Originally by: Tuxford
Because I'm balancing blasters not railguns.
Yes but balancing compared to what? Sure rails are very different but it'd still be interesting to see how they compare and you did put torps in there.
The torps are really close range weapon. Well close range weapon with 80km range. Railguns really have no relevance in this graph. They have much superior range but do a lot less damage.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:41:00 -
[40]
Try compounding that DOT graph with skills and modules. Things that start off with higher base damage per second end up gaining more benefit in raw damage/second from skills and modules since all the percentage damage bonuses multiply with each other.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Xune
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:41:00 -
[41]
*pouts* as ever i tell somthing and no one listens and say im wrong.. as soon as somone more known say somthing they check again and belive it :( @Tux
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Vortex Freeman
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Tuxford
The torps are really close range weapon. Well close range weapon with 80km range. Railguns really have no relevance in this graph. They have much superior range but do a lot less damage.
Okay okay... so rails are different, still would have been nice to see how they compare.
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<S>
~ Preparatus Supervivet ~ |
qyros
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:44:00 -
[43]
125m/s transversal is too low.
The question in the first place is, why the short range ship with its dedicated short range weapons needs a web at all.
Short range turrets should work at their optimal range without a midslot wasting support device like any other turret.
If the attacking short range ship uses a web and the short range ship itself is not webified, the transversal will be 200m/s+ (own ship speed + speed of the webified ship).
If the short range ship is webified too, the chance it is webified at 5km + is very high and the damage is reduced by falloff.
So either tracking is a factor or the damage is reduced by falloff.
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:45:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nyphur
Try compounding that DOT graph with skills and modules. Things that start off with higher base damage per second end up gaining more benefit in raw damage/second from skills and modules since all the percentage damage bonuses multiply with each other.
These graphs are all assuming perfect skills. Like you said some get more out of their ships skill than other. For example Tempest gets a rate of fire and damage bonus while the mega gets damage and tracking bonus. So at level 2 the dot looks a lot crappier for the tempest pilot than the megathron pilot.
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Phelan Lore
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tuxford
Of course noone uses them. If you can choose between two weapons that do the same damage but one is easier to fit then of course you choose the one that is easier to fit.
/highjack
So does this mean that you are looking into upping projectile ammo capacity, or decreasing reload time?
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Dreez
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tuxford
The torps are really close range weapon. Well close range weapon with 80km range.
 .
Read this post, the 3:rd one down. And tell me its not making sense...
Current Location: After 2 years of waiting, getting ready for another hunt.
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:46:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Phelan Lore
Originally by: Tuxford
Of course noone uses them. If you can choose between two weapons that do the same damage but one is easier to fit then of course you choose the one that is easier to fit.
/highjack
So does this mean that you are looking into upping projectile ammo capacity, or decreasing reload time?
Why does everyone ignore the nerfing way. I could just as well reduce the ammo capacity of the lower tier autocannons.
*runs away before the real flame starts*
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:48:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Gronsak on 06/05/2006 14:49:31
tux think about this for a sec please
a gedden with a webber! and a megathron with a webber and MWD
now you say the megathron dictates range right? and it should get the mwd penalty of cpu for it. well when we try to get into range of our optimal we are also webed, so both BS webbing each other with 90% webbers, so they will hit each other no probs! so we are not dictating range, infact our tracking advantage is lost since both partys are webed
imo decrease the cpu on 100mn mwd by 25tf
also note that although now we use a bit less cap that lasers, we NEED to fit that MWD thus gimping our cap by 25%
also note, gedden can switch ammo to instantly get 48km optimal, ur graphs only compair the most damaging ammo by the looks of it!!!!!
while a megathron would ahve to mwd for 50sec a gedden changes crystals in 1second and gets to hit that far!!! and with the t2 ammo it isnt even hitting less hard!
the cap reduction is not enough, and becase of the mwd the cpu reduction is not enough
a gedden never needs to fit a mwd or ab but a blasterthron does
so please take into account the cap and cpu of the mwd
and iff all else fails ill fight ur new mega piloted by you in a pulse gedden at various ranges and we can see who wins!!! it wount be the mega unless the start range is SUB 10km. at 20km or more your totaly stuffed!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:53:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tuxford
Why does everyone ignore the nerfing way. I could just as well reduce the ammo capacity of the lower tier autocannons.
*runs away before the real flame starts*
lol
also with ur raven comments, i suppose its something playing on your mind! any idea if torp ravens will get a balance of some sort in the future?
meh probably best not to answer that at this point tbh
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
smallgreenblur
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Posted - 2006.05.06 14:58:00 -
[50]
Looks interesting Tux, I agree that this is more on the scale of the changes that were needed for blasters. Pretty much any close range ship (except of course the raven) needs a web on to be effective so people complaining about that seems a bit silly to me. Blasters, ACs, and even pulse lasers, without a web, will just end up with the other person orbiting at 500ms and laughing at them. I do it all the time in phoons and domis.
Don't even joke about nerfing mid and low tier acs. I almost cried 
And yeah it does seem that the torp raven is slightly overpowered, but we all knew that anyway  .
Overall looking much better, thanks for the rationale behind the changes too. I'm slightly confused about the two lines in your original post that end halfway through a sentance, but maybe that's just too much coffee.
sgb
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:02:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Nyphur
Try compounding that DOT graph with skills and modules. Things that start off with higher base damage per second end up gaining more benefit in raw damage/second from skills and modules since all the percentage damage bonuses multiply with each other.
These graphs are all assuming perfect skills. Like you said some get more out of their ships skill than other. For example Tempest gets a rate of fire and damage bonus while the mega gets damage and tracking bonus. So at level 2 the dot looks a lot crappier for the tempest pilot than the megathron pilot.
Ah. So I imagine compounding modules onto that will increase damage even more for blasters.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:05:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Nyphur
Ah. So I imagine compounding modules onto that will increase damage even more for blasters.
no percentage increase will be exactly the same and thus the graph will look exactly the same!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
keepiru
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:11:00 -
[53]
----------------
Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:13:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tuxford
Why does everyone ignore the nerfing way. I could just as well reduce the ammo capacity of the lower tier autocannons.
*runs away before the real flame starts*
      
WTB: 1 item of Tuxford corpse. 
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Recluse XXX
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:16:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tuxford
the armageddon can't get away from the mega once its in range.
Dosent really matter since the Geddon hits perfectly fine at the Megas optimal range whit blasters 
//Rec
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Edited by: sausage jockey on 01/02/2006 22:02:39
We will not give up until we have penetrated the rear entrance to Stain, we hope this will hurt SA to the point they start to cry.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:25:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Ithildin
The Vindicator has about 33% better agility than any other battleship.
Damnit I specifically looked for the agility. Seems weird though I would have just given it less mass. It is more agile than mega but does travel slower with an ab or mwd though.
Will that warrant a decrease in agility for the Megathron then? Enough for it to nearly reach max speed with just one cycle of the MWD.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Emno
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:27:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Emno on 06/05/2006 15:27:41
With awu 5 7 neutron IIs mwd II + heavy cap injector there is 1361.1 powergrid left on a mega. Not enough grid for a large rep or even 3 1600 plates only way i can see to fit a tank with neutron IIs is 2 med reps ;/
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Bacchuss
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:28:00 -
[58]
/me kisses his bold gallente char
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"What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!"
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:29:00 -
[59]
Your post pretty much shows the issues.
So, some points:
The DOT graph is with (the gimped) EMP ammo... With T2 ammo projectiles do more DOT than blasters.
The tracking graph shows why blasters are utterly useless in any gang:
It must get inside 9km range to do more damage than any of the other 3 races, which takes time. And once in range, it will take time for the ship to slow down, so the thron will have a transversal much higher than 125m/s and track so bad that it still does way less damage than the others. So by the time the thron actually can reach it's max DOT (which is the same as that of geddon and raven) the target is usually already dead.
And your fitting/cap shows why it's useless in solo as well: the megathron can't fit a tank (as it needs MWD) which all the other ships can, and then the minimal DOT advantage the thron has doesn't mean anything.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.05.06 15:32:00 -
[60]
Originally by: dalman
And once in range, it will take time for the ship to slow down, so the thron will have a transversal much higher than 125m/s and track so bad that it still does way less damage than the others.
That's pilot error. You can match your ship's course with the enemy's rather than approach them. Also, Tux mentioned a possible tracking buff.
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