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Officer Jasmine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
   |
Posted - 2014.04.14 03:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since CCP won't do anything about Margin Trading and it's almost exclusive use (abuse) by scammers, how about a new skill.
For those unaware, under the current system somebody (nearly always a scammer) sets up a market buy order without sufficient isk in the wallet to cover it. When someone tries to fill the order, it fails and they're stuck with a usually nearly worthless stack of items and the scammer is free to continue on with no consequences. This is un-Eve-like. Where else is there no risk for potentially great rewards?
The solution: Market Call- Forces thru a percentage of a buy order regardless of the amount of isk in the buyers wallet. CAN put buyer in a negative isk situation in their wallet. Seller gets their percentage (depending on skill level) of isk for fulfilling the order.
Any Items not covered by that percentage get returned to sellers hangar.
I would reccommend it be a rank 4 skill and give 15%/level return of underfunded buy orders.
Note I'm not advocating 100% (even at level5), but i wouldn't be against it  |
Yakima DWB
Baited Sting
Interstellar ConVicts
8
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 04:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
So, I can roll a new alt, put up a buy order for 1 trillion isk, have my main sell them the item.... then rinse, repeat. |
Officer Jasmine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 04:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yakima DWB wrote:So, I can roll a new alt, put up a buy order for 1 trillion isk, have my main sell them the item.... then rinse, repeat.
You could only do that ONCE because your alts wallet would be in the negative until you put the money in it that u don't have in the first place. That was a ridiculous argument against this. Do you even understand what the buy order margin trade scam is? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers
Fidelas Constans
447
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 04:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Officer Jasmine wrote:Yakima DWB wrote:So, I can roll a new alt, put up a buy order for 1 trillion isk, have my main sell them the item.... then rinse, repeat. You could only do that ONCE because your alts wallet would be in the negative until you put the money in it that u don't have in the first place. That was a ridiculous argument against this. Do you even understand what the buy order margin trade scam is?
He is right. I could just make dozens of trial accounts or fewer 1 time plexed accounts and make money appear out of nowhere.
However you might be able to avoid this by making the buyers wallet go negative, without having the seller get money from no where. Any money made by the buyer from then on gets put into the sellers wallet. Possibly have the buyer unable to place any more buy orders until he is green again. This would prevebt money from magically appearing from no where, and prevents the buyer from putting out fake orders without any risk to himself. |
Sigras
Conglomo
720
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 07:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
First of all, do you have any concept of how margin trading... or actual trading works in Eve? because your complaint suggests that you dont.
I have billions in buy orders at any given time, and billions in sell orders at the same time even though my wallet is usually around 1-2 billion. This works because the orders fill in relatively the same amount of time, but im a relatively small player. If you think margin trading is mainly used by scammers you're an idiot.
< 1% of all margin trade uses are scammers preying on people who are too stupid to ask themselves "why is this deal too good to be true"
Also your idea is so insanely broken as to be completely idiotic... let me see how I can use your system to make ISK appear from nowhere...
1. train Market Call (AKA ISK printing) level 4
2. make trial account
3. buy PLEX
4. PLEX the trial account
5. train margin trading 5 on trial character
6. train procurement level 2 on trial character
7. trade trial character 4-5 billion isk
8. Haul 16 fullerite-C32 to a random station with no sell orders for that item.
9. put up a buy order for 16 fullerite-C32 for 1 billion ISK each in that station.
10. sell with main to that buy order (throwaway alt's wallet goes negative 12 billion, main's wallet goes up 12 billion)
11. lather
12. rinse
13. repeat |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
266
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 07:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
How is this skill used exclusively for scamming?
Once skilled to lvl1, it is ALWAYS in effect!
It's the single most usefull skill for every trader out there! |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
486
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 10:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Not supported.
Margin Trading is a useful skill for many traders, not just for scammers while your proposed skill is a licence to print ISK (as already stated) and would cause far more damage than any abuse of Margin Trading could.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 13:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Maybe fairly hefty fines for failed orders would work better, doesn't ruin either use of the skill but does provide the ~CONSEQUENCES~ people so love to talk about.
The skill is just too useful for new traders to nerf like OP.
Travelling at the speed of love. |
knowsitall
Adeptus iNdustry and Logistics
Silent Eviction
21
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think i mentioned in a different thread on this that i think this can be made to work for everyone. Just make the floor of the amount of isk in escrow the buy price * the minimum quantity. Then when that buy is filled it will check escrow and ensure there is enough for buy price * minimum quantity again. I think this will have very low impact on real traders (as they tend to have a minimum quantity of 1 and buy bigger than 1 batches). But the first batch of a buy order will ALWAYS work. If they don't have enough for the second batch the order is failed and removed from the market.
You could even compensate for the change by increasing the amount margin trading gives you as you have effectively added a floor that will ignore it until you pass that floor.
Knowsitall |
Kaimar Redcloud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 01:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Wow a lot of butthurt in here for even suggesting something like that lulz. Could it be you "legitimate" traders don't want this fixed? This is Eve. If someone breaks your toy, HTFU and make a new one. Don't rehash the same old scams. As for it being an "ISK printing scheme", yes the execution as it stands is broken, but either you've never heard of, or are hoping we have never heard the word "EXPLOIT". As in "Punishable by CCP when found". As in "Loss of isk/items and account bans". I'm quite sure this can be easily fixed with ingame mechanics already in place. How about making Margin Trading and Market Call untrainable on trial accounts? Problem solved. See how easy that was? If this goes live, give trial accounts with the skill a choice, either pay or lose the skill and the SP go into the unallocated pool to be used by the player at their discretion (as has been done before).
Eve is easy lol.
And did I really read that? < 1% of margin traders are scammers? Where did this number come from? What study was done to get this statistic? I believe you'll probably find the real number is much higher than that lolz. If you don't think so, you sir are the idiot here.
I also see this as a tool legitimate traders would welcome. "You mean my market order won't fail cuz I derped and forgot to transfer isk? Or I derped and accidentally put 11 instead of 1 for minimum required? Thank you CCP!" This would give you time to correct that mistake. After all, a legitimate trader wouldn't put up a buy order for something he doesn't really want, right?
I believe Rowells is onto something there with his idea. Why not make a little window in the wallet, like they did for your Aurum balance, with the amount you have in Margin Call. It's there. You know how much it is. You can't access it until the buyer refills his wallet. I think some sort of time limit would be in order. Maybe 48 or 72hrs to refill the wallet or trading on that specific toon stops. If an identical period of time passes, then trading stops on that account stops until the problem is fixed. The mechanics are already in place. Ask someone who got caught buying isk or items from a RMTrader.
I told you Eve was easy.
I think a better way than 15%/level payout, How about lvl1 gives you 50% and then 5%/lvl with lvl5 giving you 75%. This gets modified by standings with the station the order takes place in. +.99 or less knocks payout back to 50% with 5% added in per point of standings til +9.0 or above gives you 95%. The rest goes to the station as fees for recovering your money.
See how easy Eve is?
"But traders don't get standings!" did I hear you whine? How would you like to? Training Margin Trading would enable a counter, like the mission counter (every 16 missions for a faction/corp gives you a storyline) that counts your trades/contracts completed in one station. Every 16 ( or whatever number CCP picks) completed transactions (including completed contracts) gives you a storyline courier mission (traders usually not having combat skills) that would raise your standings with that corp or maybe just that station. These standings then reduce the amount you have to pay in penalties for being overdrawn on your wallet.
Margin trading lvl1 give you a base 150% deposit, 5%/lvl reduction til lvl5 requires a 130% deposit. This would be modified by your standings up or down by 5%/pt giving a range of 105% to 175% with the extra going to the station for accounting fees. Note this all only applies if the seller has Margin Call trained. If not, the standard mechanics apply and I hope the seller enjoys his stack of useless overpriced crap.
Eve is so easy.
So scammers don't really lose one of their scams. It just would be riskier now. If they don't like it, they could always go back to mislabeling Raven contracts ROFLMAO! |
Sigras
Conglomo
721
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 02:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
we dont want this to happen because we, unlike you and the OP apparently have an understanding of how the market works.
Margin trading is the single most important trading skill in the game (with the possible exception of day trading).
as for your suggestion that they cant be trained on trial accounts, clearly you didnt read my post... what keep someone from PLEXing an account and just absorbing the extra 700 million ISK cost into their profits from the exploit? See how easy that was? now I have a non trial account that I paid $0.00 for. You fixed nothing.
clearly you are not creative enough to see clear apparent exploits and therefore should not be proposing new game ideas. |
Kaimar Redcloud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 03:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sigras wrote:we dont want this to happen because we, unlike you and the OP apparently have an understanding of how the market works.
Margin trading is the single most important trading skill in the game (with the possible exception of day trading).
as for your suggestion that they cant be trained on trial accounts, clearly you didnt read my post... what keep someone from PLEXing an account and just absorbing the extra 700 million ISK cost into their profits from the exploit? See how easy that was? now I have a non trial account that I paid $0.00 for. You fixed nothing.
clearly you are not creative enough to see clear apparent exploits and therefore should not be proposing new game ideas.
Did you miss the part where the funds are not accesible until the buyers wallet is refilled or are you ignoring it? You are making my point for me. What you end up with is an alt account 12B in the red and 12B in your mains account you can't access. Think maybe CCP might wonder how that happened? 
Clearly you are not clever enough to see fixes for an exploit and therefore should not be posting....anything.
I have a CNR on contracts for you. |
Kaimar Redcloud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 04:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Actually with the skill mechanics as proposed, you would end up with an alt that is AT BEST 12.6b in the hole and a main that has AT BEST 11.4b you can't access for a net profit on your exploit of -1.2B plus the price of a plex for a net loss of roughly 1.9B.
Wanna buy a PLEX? |
Sigras
Conglomo
722
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 09:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
do you see how that still doesnt fix the scam? because this is only ever done on throwaway alts anyway...
if the person who got scammed doesnt have access to the "margin call wallet" until the buyer's wallet is refilled and the buyer has no intention of ever refilling his wallet how is this better?
In fact, how does this change the margin trading scam at all? (short answer: it doesnt)
The only difference is that the person now has a permanent reminder (in the form of a margin call wallet that will never be funded) of how idiotic they are. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
138
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 09:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
my idea to fix this problem is to make margin trading untrainable on trial accouts, then, a month or so after that, to make it so that failed buy orders push the owner's wallet into the negative, and any further isk they make goes straight to their creditor's wallet, and as they make enough to buy one of the items they were selling - they get it from the broker (who took them into storage)
sure that'd be abused somehow, can't see exactly where or how though
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Sigras
Conglomo
722
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 10:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
neither of those "fixes" solve the problem...
If you cant train margin trading on a trial account, then the scammers will just PLEX their account and absorb the loss into their profit margin for the scam.
Also garnishing wages doesnt matter if they never intend to use that character ever again.
the scam would simply go on as it does currently, the only difference is that you would need to biomass the character every time you pulled a scam off. |
knowsitall
Adeptus iNdustry and Logistics
Silent Eviction
22
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 10:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sigras wrote:neither of those "fixes" solve the problem...
If you cant train margin trading on a trial account, then the scammers will just PLEX their account and absorb the loss into their profit margin for the scam.
Also garnishing wages doesnt matter if they never intend to use that character ever again.
the scam would simply go on as it does currently, the only difference is that you would need to biomass the character every time you pulled a scam off.
I notice no one has commented on whether they think my solution to the margin trading scam would work, see my either post. Basically it says that all buy orders will work for the minimum quantity, but not neccesary for the complete order.
|
Kaimar Redcloud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 11:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
That is why I suggested the 2 48 to 72 hr timers. If the wallet isn't refilled within the first timer, trading on the toon is stopped. By the end of the 2nd timer, trading on the account is stopped and the items are returned to the seller. No, the seller never gets his money, but neither does the scammer. The skill as proposed, being a rank 4 or 5 skill with whatever prereq's CCP would want, would take approx 2 to 3 months to train. So it would cost the scammer 2 or 3 plexes to pull the scam once, never get his money and have to biomass his toon every time. And rereading my post, I see I forgot to mention the return of the items. I apologize for that. 
I never said this would end the scam. I said it would make it riskier to do it. To pull the scam, they have to put overpriced buy orders on the market to make their crap look good. If someone were to try to fill the order with this skill trained is the only time any of this would kick in. If you watch the scammers trying to advertise in any of the trade hubs, they use their main trading alt. It's never done with 1 day old toons. And yes I know anybody can make a market order, But my, and the OP's I assume, aim was to make it more difficult, not eliminate it all together. Also, I think this is a useful skill for traders as already stated.
Knowsitall, the scam usually involves the minimum quantity and the total quantity wanted being the same for an expensive sounding but generally worthless item that's traded at very low volumes. So that really wouldn't work.
|
Caleb Seremshur
Capital Storm.
Black Flag Society
224
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 11:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Officer Jasmine wrote:Yakima DWB wrote:So, I can roll a new alt, put up a buy order for 1 trillion isk, have my main sell them the item.... then rinse, repeat. You could only do that ONCE because your alts wallet would be in the negative until you put the money in it that u don't have in the first place. That was a ridiculous argument against this. Do you even understand what the buy order margin trade scam is?
That's exactly what the buy order margin scam is.
An adaption of your proposal would look like; the new skill forces a percentage of the isk to be deposited straight away and the buy order is held on layby - the item is not transferred until the full sum is paid.
This allows people to make buy orders for things that they *want* at a given price and allows them to reserve the given item if they don't have enough isk for it - but they don't actually get the item until the full sum is paid.
It's not a foolproof system, technically a legion of alts could use this trick to crash a given market by falsely reserving every item in a catagory they want to manipulate ergo forcing a price hike on the goods but that's just marketing and it's done in real life, unlike margin trading scams where things like credit checks etc would eliminate false buy orders before they make it to the table.
LP store weapon cost rebalance |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
95
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 13:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
OP, you need to understand that the 'scam' isn't in the buy order, it's in the sell order.
If you buy an item for double the avg market price, or worse buy an item of which you don't understand the underlying DEMAND dynamics, you're a bad trader and deserve to lose money anyway.
Furthermore, as the devs have correctly pointed out several times, only people that are hoping to pull off a scam themselves (by taking advantage of a 'fail buy order') fall for margin trading scams. So you don't deserve neither a mechanics change nor, tbh, anybody's simpathy  .
Sorry to be so harsh but really, falling for a margin trading scam is 80% your own mistake, 15% your own greed and no more than 5% the 'scammer's fault'. I see no need to change useful and reasonable game mechanics just to prevent greedy people from making mistakes! |
Sigras
Conglomo
729
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 16:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
knowsitall wrote:I think i mentioned in a different thread on this that i think this can be made to work for everyone. Just make the floor of the amount of isk in escrow the buy price * the minimum quantity. Then when that buy is filled it will check escrow and ensure there is enough for buy price * minimum quantity again. I think this will have very low impact on real traders (as they tend to have a minimum quantity of 1 and buy bigger than 1 batches). But the first batch of a buy order will ALWAYS work. If they don't have enough for the second batch the order is failed and removed from the market.
You could even compensate for the change by increasing the amount margin trading gives you as you have effectively added a floor that will ignore it until you pass that floor.
Knowsitall
that is a really creative idea, but it still wont fix the scam.
Scammers will simply put up a buy order for quantity 40, minimum quantity 20 then remove all the ISK from that toon, then sell that toon the items to drain their "margin trading buffer pool" then we're back in the same situation.
It would work if the market would de-list orders where the buyer doesnt have the ISK to cover the transaction, but that calculation is ridiculous, and would have to be done on every buy order for each person every time their wallet changed... you think there's lag in Jita now? |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
138
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 17:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
tbh - part of the scam is also by making large buy orders with a ridiculously large 'buy' volume - in this case the UI needs to be cleaned up, but I think the dev's are on that
sudden memory of an inspirational idea - those orders that can't be filled (as the buyer does not, at that time, have the isk to cover) do not appear in the market UI, until the buyer once again has the isk to cover even a single unit of purchase (be that a single module or several thousand modules, whatever they've setup the minimum buy quantity as)
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Nikolai Lachance
Happy Wheels Logistics
73
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 21:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Here's a good solution to the margin trading scam:
Be smart, pay attention, and don't fall for it. |
Setsune Rin
Collapsed Out
Shadow Cartel
202
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 21:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
i've never fallen for a margin trading scam, even before i figured out that the skill existed.
did try to source the required materials from elsewhere at a normal price once when i was a bright eyed newbie, but i managed to figure out with already existing intelligence tools that it was a scam and tried (obviously failed) to turn it over on the scammer.
only new players and greedy idiots fall for this, i care very little for the last.
seems a lot more effective then changing a perfectly usefull mechanic
the only changes to margin trading i would ever support are visibility changes (temporarily hide margin traded orders that cannot be filled by wallet balance) or some sort of other way to implement the current mechanism but have it be more clear to the uninformed new players among us.
|
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
141
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 23:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Setsune Rin wrote:i've never fallen for a margin trading scam, even before i figured out that the skill existed.
did try to source the required materials from elsewhere at a normal price once when i was a bright eyed newbie, but i managed to figure out with already existing intelligence tools that it was a scam and tried (obviously failed) to turn it over on the scammer.
only new players and greedy idiots fall for this, i care very little for the last.
seems a lot more effective then changing a perfectly usefull mechanic
the only changes to margin trading i would ever support are visibility changes (temporarily hide margin traded orders that cannot be filled by wallet balance) or some sort of other way to implement the current mechanism but have it be more clear to the uninformed new players among us.
I would support hiding unfillable orders
edit - maybe make it a market setting that's ticked by default
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Kaimar Redcloud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 00:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Setsune Rin wrote: seems a lot more effective then changing a perfectly usefull mechanic
The only change to margin trading skill I mentioned was adding a mechanic whereby traders could earn standings.
I wouldn't support hiding buy orders using margin trading. As several posters have hit me over the head with, legitimate traders also use margin trading
Hi-lighting those orders in a different color to let people know that there possibly may not be enough money in the account would be preferable so that the legitimate traders would not be punished because of the actions of a few bad apples. |
ShakeThatMoneyMaker
Uniscape
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 09:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
I have thought about this for some time and I have an idea that would work.
It will solve the scammers market, and it will not effect normal gameplay.
The problem:
Player A puts up a buy order:
Player A removes Isk from his wallet so that he is unable to fullfill the buy order:
Player B attempts to fill the order, which fails.
Player A has no risk, but if he is the one selling the items (on contract) or on market in a seperate station/system. Can reap massive benefits.
Player B has all the risk, thinking he could make a quick buck.
Some of these scams are obvious, others are harder to identify (when the scammer put more work into it, so there is buy/sell history and multiple sell orders at simliar prices)
Solution:
Add a field to monitor the amount of Isk needed to fullfill a order placed on market.
If the sellers wallet drops under a certain level, the market buy order that he is no longer able to fullfill will not be listed untill the wallet level is high enough to cover them.
This would:
Allow normal usage of the Margin Trading skill.
Prevent abuse and also make it easier for traders to maintain a high turnover without risking their buy orders to bounce by misstake. |
Sigras
Conglomo
731
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 17:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
I think you guys are under estimating the number of database calls this would require.
I do agree that this would fix the problem, but it would cause a ridiculous amount of lag as every time anyone's wallet changed, the server would have to do a table join and compare every market order they have with their wallet.
That doesnt seem like much, but you think there is lag on the jita market now? |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
147
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 17:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
to be quite honest I have no idea how many database calls this would make - maybe only query orders when the wallet goes down - and query for increases hourly or similar? - that should cut it by at least 25-40%
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
107
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 17:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Again, why is margin trading a problem in the first place???
If you base your trading on a single buy order you're a terrible trader - your fault.
If you trade items with almost non-existant volume history you know you're taking a huge risk - again, your decision.
If someone goes through the hassle of putting up multiple 'fake' buy and sell orders in multiple trade hubs for months (in order to artifically create a volume history), I'd call it more a market manipulation than a scam and man, they deserve to make some profit after all that ISK and time invested. |
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