nice all the guristas ships apart for the worm are screwed over well done *slow claps*

Question:

Do you (CCP) thought about the amount of drones in a pvp fight? ;D (Hello assist overwork)

50 Drones in old variant = basic 450 dps / 5 * 50 = 4500 damage with Garde II without mods.

50 Drones in new variant = basic 420 dps / 2 * 50 = 10518 damage with Garde II without mods.

That is a damage push of 233,75%.

First you worked to reduce the amount of assist and now (Summer) it will be again possible to ..... I her the flame war incoming in 3 2 1 ...
Would like to know that this change will change another part of eve was also in your mind.

You can not assist drones from a faction BS to another player? o.O

So what your saying is - For the new Snake when fit as a drone boat, it is ok to have nearly half of its available "drone bay" on a "drone boat" filled with "un - bonused" drones.

Yeah that'll work just fine - probably only in EFT though. Practical application, it will simply fail miserably.

I really wonder now what is the reason for the existence of the light drones...

Well it is the morning, so i have a little patience left, probably after a couple of times repeating myself and banging my head against the wall I might give up for today so here goes.

Please pay attention. And try to read to the end before you jump on the most inconsequential part before leaping to completely wrong conclusions as to what is being said

The issue is that for both the Gila and the Rattlesnake in different ways, the drone weapon system is exactly that, an entire system with many checks and balances, plusses and minuses.-It has serious issues, and at some point will need a major rework.- but that is an aside.

Range of control and the fact that drones come in different sizes and abilities, and that these can be switched according to threat, are the pillars that support the system as a weapons platform.

The problem is the 2 main pillars have been disregarded whilst focusing on the new superdrone concept.
The superdrone concept has great potential to be a great addition to the game. But only if the smaller drones beneath the Superdrones are taken into account in the whole interplay of the system. And the battle-space these drones operate in and the control range applicable relates to the drones abilities.

But if you completely remove functionality and abilities of core components of the whole system, the balance is broken, and it will be impossible to know just how good they are,as one will be making continual comparisons with the other missing and changed elements.how can one compare the Gila and its use of wonderful bonused superdrones if you are struggling with losing 3.5 effective light drones and fighting to somehow stay alive.
When you change a core variable, you change only one at a time, or the data is meaningless.

There is also the issue that micromanagement of the lesser drones in the system is significantly more hands on, the unbonused drones (and fewer in the gila) are fragile and weaker, they need more effort to keep alive and are exposed to damage for longer as they do damage less quickly.
If it is necessary to use the MJD for range control then the MJD now takes one well out of drone control range adding to drone micromanagement. All of these issues are annoying an unpleasant rather than fatal, but is making the game more annoying a positive improvement?
This is over and above the more direct impacts that have been detailed en mass over dozens of pages, i know there is a lot to read but that is better than me typing pages for you now. Try to read, I will not do ALL the work for you!

So in short the rattlesnake has become a missile boat. With supporting drones. This is not the dual weapon system ship that we are used to. Whilst one can certainly adapt, the method of making the drones unpleasant to use, is a very poor way to introduce superdrones.

The Gila is severely hampered by the neglect of the entire drone weapon system, there are only 2 possible fits. T2 heavy missiles with precision missiles (if you have those skills) or rapid lights.

So the question is is it a good idea to rebalance a ship by neglecting the core concept of a weapons system being a system by ripping it out and just replacing part with a different mechanic. Or is it better to consider the whole system and doing it properly and not pissing off existing users and making it a pain for new ones?

I do not believe that is either deliberate or intended. The forums are here to give the Devs feedback, they are under considerable pressure to deliver changes, to a tight timescale, we NEED to point out issues when they are seen, to help them do their job for the BENEFIT OF ALL,

Aside from that the resolutions are remarkably simple.

Gila 200% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light drones. To keep approximately the same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake 50% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light and medium drones, keeps same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake either 25km to drone control range to keep same effective drone control range to prevent the new dead area, where drone damage will not be applied. Or drop the new launcher and add to the missile damage bonus,to keep it the same as originally suggested.

The idea is that the lesser drones are a valid part of the weapons system and deserve just as much attention if balance is to achieved, and that the whole battlespace needs to be considered in order not to create accidental deadspots that add nothing but annoyance to the game.

(If CCP Rise wanted to buff the ship some more, this could be also achieved by an additional high slot, his choice, naturally would effect the ability to fit other things too.) The other solutions would be just as effective without buffing anything.


NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)

The forum thread is so long because as in the case where one sees a nail on the floor, one can either pick it up and solve the problem, or argue incessantly for hours as to why it is not a problem and why it is too much effort to pick it up.

Until someone steps on it.

Seems that many still just want to argue and not actually deal with it.

I hope that finally you might understand other peoples issues, If not nothing anyone can write will persuade you.

Yes lots of words,

People read those you know.
They then understand what people are asking for, rather than just , you know, making it up?!
(Wow! Who realised we currently had light drones, with the Power and tank of frigates,amazing!) *deep sarcasm*

And Possibly they even overcome their own preconceptions? One never knows. But hey ho, it must be a reassuring and comfortable world to live in where one is always right. Hopefully I haven't disturbed that for you

I have read the original post and wonder if we have read the same one??

Yes the rattlesnake has been given additional damage to missiles, that is clearly stated.
Fitting RLML to the rattlesnake is of course an option, and fitting them to the Gila is the only sensible fit without T2 heavy precision missiles.yeah, thats the only fit, no choices there. I see no request for bonused superlight drones., just standard bonused drones with exactly the same hitpoints and effective drones as presently there. So what are you on about.?

He does not deny it will be a good ship, he talks about the whole drone system and the mechanics of drones in depth to try explain to people who don't use them i guess, or just trying to be heard over the crap, you are completely ignoring that and the worries he has. He is not the only one, they will be a bloody pain to use, why the hell use such screwed up drones anyway. I dont know about the new sentries, 2 better ones instead of 5? Just have to try those, but drones overall are now no fun and crappy after this

He is pointing out, where things went wrong and how to fix it. Without making it any more a WTFPwnm mobile than ccp already made it.

So WTF, did you read it or what

Well just say the ship is too good and you hate it rather than ignoring everything we say,and trolling the people who use it with all the bullshit.


We want to use it and we don't want to see it screwed up and become a second rate missile boat.

Either way, retaining the abilities of light drones to deal with frigates and elite drones would be resolved, if I understand correctly, and that is the most important thing.

So long as our suggestions prevent the drone weapon system from being a pain to use, requiring endless micromanagement, then either is good.

Light drones are part of the primary weapon system, you launch different drones just as in a missile ship you launch different types of missile.

Other ships are a red herring, they do not relate in anyway to a drone boat, just diverting things away from the discussion.

Very well the day your battleship has the feature where the guns unfit when light drones are launched. Then is the day that the effectiveness of light drones does not matter to a drone platform.

You are aware that when we launch light drones that the sentries need to be recalled? Losing your primary damage system, somehow losing most of your DPS is hardly consistent with it being overpowered, the opposite if anything is true.

how many target painting do you need on a immobile frigate to actually do half of 800 dps ?
Because you need about 3 bombs to destroy a still helios, but it has only about 1700 hp, ant the bomb damage says 6400 !(OMFGNERFNERFNERF!)
Numbers are so useful to make anyone's point when used out of context.


edit: typing is hard

You could also be a real man and just fit two TPs, point and web. So you'd need 3-4 volleys less :P

Firstly, this is a rattlesnake, I am sure there will be a lot of EFT fitting discussions later, but not really helpful at the moment.

The rattlesnake is a drone boat, so discussing drones is somewhat appropriate.

Solving a potential clusterfuck is not usually described as a philosophy but whatever.

But not always good ones. And often not helpful in the slightest. Rest Answered above^^^^^

You do not understand the drone issue at all so therefore it is unimportant.. Why the hell should we fly a ship that has become a pain in the arse to fly with drones?

for one, you lose 50% of your drone DPS whenever you have to pull back a drone or a drone gets webbed. Heavy drones still suck and the drone bay is so small now there is only enough space for the bare minimum operational capacity.

ugh, why am I bothering to educate this no-life loser.

The rattlesnake is supposed to be versatile, moron. That is why we trained for it.

There is a reason that mega goes for more than twice as much as a rattlesnake.

Get a clue.

Tell me how bad you would cry if EVE shut down its servers and you would be forced to close a enormous chapter of your life. Buzz off and find something better to do, worm. Haven't you spammed these forums enough with your head-case of chronic mental vomit.

This thread is filled with people complaining that the case is exactly the opposite.

Get a life, clown. Are you even smart enough to know how pathetic you are?

0/10

What do you think we are all complaining about, idiot?

a 400m3 drone bay went down to 175m3. Removal of missile velocity bonus. Changing of Role bonus AND Gallente Bonus. Loss of bonuses for light and medium drones.

Do you see any other pirate faction battleships with bigger changes? Never mind the fact that they are totally unnecessary.

5 drones is better than 2 in every scenario.

No, it just makes them less squishy when they do get targeted.

how are you so dumb to not understand that when you have 2 drones and have to pull one back, that is 50% of your drone dps?

When you have 5 drones and you have to pull one back, that is only 20% of your drone DPS.

5 drones is always better than 2. These changes are big nerfs to the Rattlesnakes versatility no matter how you look at it. Overlap my ass.

please explain to use how losing 50% damage bonus on light drones and medium drones is a good thing.

In most missions and many pvp scenarios, the frigates need to die first. The faster that happens, the greater survivability of the ship.

The extra survivability of a mere component, the heavy and sentry drones does not make up for this great loss of power and survivability of the ship.

Of course nobody chooses a battleship to combat only frigates. We are talking about a loss of versatility here, idiots.

Such a moronic counter argument. You still don't seem to comprehend that we picked Rattlesnake for a reason.

Don't be such a blithering idiot. Just admit you are wrong and GTFO.

The ironic thing here is if CCP does actually create a true missile pirate faction we'll be right back here at the same spot with the RS being the worst of the pirate hull due to lack of focus.

Just accept these drastic and poorly thought out changes that negate the reason I picked Rattlesnake?

No. Go **** yourself.

We have valid concerns about the Rattlesnake and every right to complain. You wouldn't be arguing with me about it if you weren't a moron.

Could just be my pessimistic/uncreative side, but loading RLML on the RS seems like a waste now that it has the potential damage output that it does. Moreso considering it makes sense to fit DDA's on it making lights more effective. On others a TP bonus would likely help them bridge the gap as, if I understand correctly, a missile damage bonus for a BS would include RHML, just not application bonuses.

I'm not saying it won't be unique, I'm just questioning if unique is enough to be a good draw if others can be made more effective, but that's all mostly being very speculative.

Oh, the problems have been pointed out several times by many people, clown.

How are you so stupid to not realize that?

We picked Rattlesnake for a reason and that includes having 50% bonus on light and medium drones. There is no good reason to change it.

Now get back to your basement. This is not the place for no-life forum clowns to spew their chronic mental vomit everywhere.

I can see that, I'm just afraid such specialist cases won't make for a high draw for the ship in the case of a true missile powerhouse that one has a reason to chose over the currently proposed RS.

It is not just for the light drones, you black and white mentality moron.

No man , the max dps rattle will know just one thing - better dps than any other choices to battleships up to 80 km and drastically less dps outside that target type and envelope than any other choices including a vanilla raven.Also this means no MJD .

So personally i will skip the generous and toxic offer of the fifth launcher and use the thing like now but with 2 more launchers .
For them i will pay with the velocity bonus , partial ammo selectability ,and the lights effectiveness . If the first 2 were no real biggies the lights are important point , when you have full room aggro the think to kill is the scramming frig (s) , not the 6'th battleship from the left .That or press MJD - if it's available . Also in this version of ship until the lights finishes the job the sentries are in bay so all that remains from your firepower are those 4 semi bonused semi nerfed launchers.

I think the ship pays too much for the buffs to call them buffs - it's the old ****** but pretty Rattle but with with a new flavor of **** .

One of the main reasons we picked Rattlesnake, the ability for the Rattlesnake to combat fast moving frigates and cruisers, is enormously diminished with the loss of 50% damage and HP for its light and medium drones. Only clowns and idiots are saying otherwise.

You can fit it but it would be unused except "oh ****" moments. It's because after using it you will have to slowboat 20 km until resuming sentry fire . Would be smarter to fit anything else (TP's for ex) . I will totally fit one if i would have a spare mid but now is pretty cramped there with tank , omnis , tp's and a mandatory AB .

Ofc this is the LVL4 POV - for anomalies all is go for launch - i totally understand your POV . And i know enough pvp to be unenthousiastic about an imobile platform .

Hmm drone bonus let me see what we are not getting now, you know reading stuff....

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level

Would you like to apologise now?

Sixty pages. Can we talk about something else now?

I, for one, am absolutely horrible at reading agility stats no matter what. Exactly how significant is the agility nerf on the Machariel? Objective statements only, if that's okay. I'm not looking for opinions. Opinions are how we get flame wars.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level

How many times do you have to read simple stuff to understand it, oh I get it ...*nah nah nah can't hear you*

Really? To get at a decent range? Well that is how one currently would, So you would enjoy slowboating 25km after you MJD at 115m/ sec (dependent on skills and fit) why, that's such a pain in the arse! So you are starting to understand. Aren't you???

At the risk of the trolls saying the only thing I am worried about is light drones ( yet again) the loss of hitpoints to those light drones is even more of an issue with the drone aggression mechanic. They Will die far more often between being locked and getting back to the bay.

LOL. Look at this stupid loser. He can't even figure out that the Rattlesnake is losing its 50% bonus on light and medium drones.

Typical of the type of person who says the Rattlesnake is fine.

Ok there is currently a 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints as part of the Gallente Battleship skill,
With the revisions it is no longer there on Light and medium drones.
I know it is actually more as the bonus Is stacking.

I am not sure of the point you are making, are you saying that we are imagining there was a bonus currently?
Or are you saying we have underestimated how much we are losing?
Or is there a finer point we are not understanding?

You are aware that when you launch your light drones you have to recall your sentries aren't you.
And on your raven/ hyperion/or whatever you do not have to shutdown your turrets to launch your lights?

Let me know how you would like losing over half of your guns to be able to do that.

But we have discussed this before, many people pointed that out, are you hoping that most of them are in bed to try to slip that through again.

Problem is, if you try to fit for max damage with both of them, you will be splitting too much your modules.

You have to pick one.
On a Rave, you rigor and TP the **** out of missiles, and consider drones secondary.

On the old ratter for argument's sake T1 torps and T1 heavies, heavies did a LOT more damage, and even with T2 rage vs T2 Ogres the drones do twice as much, not to mention apply it better.

Now you have this ship, where things get nuts.
The damage of a T1 torp will come close to the damage of a T2 Ogre (selected best damage ammo and drone, both thermal).
You can fit 3 rigor rigs, 3 BCUs and 3 DDAs.
Add a TP or two for missiles, two Omnis for your sentries, and you have 3-4 slots for tank, that... well, just might work.
But it's a tad bit on the crazy side of things, and nuts on the skill training times.

Where I fly you are an exception I've only seen 1 confirmed armour tank on a vexor in the last month, domis are nearly always shield tanks though battleships are rare where I pvp. As I understand it shield is dominant in the meta at the moment, I hope that changes though. I will be more than happy to admit I am wrong though if I am mistaken.

Respect 07

Skills: aye.

4 slot tank : that's what I'm already, only with the rigs being CCC so I don't drink cap boosters like a drunk sailor on shore leave.
So I have a pretty good estimate how doable it is, with the new dps taken into consideration.

Ooh sounds like you have a role for the rattlesnake in mind. Why not try fitting it with a relic analyser and remote armor repairer while you are at it. I am sure we would all LOVE that.

Tell you what, you fly it your way and we will fly it ours, and we promise not to ridicule and deny you your options.

Absolutely nothing wrong with an armor and shield repper, apart from the small consideration that now not only do your drones suck but your missiles do too.......

The same way drones do, remove a launcher to fit it and they are borked. Have you not realised how few high slots the rattlesnake has yet? Maybe that is why you cannot understand our concerns, every one matters!

He may or may not be living in a world where CONCORD will destroy your Rattlesnake and GCC you for undocking without a DLA in the utility high.

So...... We are not allowed to operate at ranges beyond 60km now?
I cannot even begin to describe the stupid inherent in this post.

So is it either a complete lack and regard for other peoples playstyle, arrogance, ignorance, or is the poster a swivel eyed loony?

Hard to tell, you know, sunglasses and stuff.

What!
you turn answering that question into that!

how on earth can you compare the domi's guns to this ship, secondary to main. rail guns to missiles too? apples to oranges as well?

Miss the whole point much????

Well, as for being able to use either of the weapons systems on the ship as the primary, and to be able select and fit and make compromises for the appropriate type is something:-

THAT NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS DISAGREED WITH!

It is just that The issues that have already been Identified, prevent that being a reasonable choice.

Simple example for the hard of understanding, we originally had a small plate with two pieces of rather bland cake, Now we have One Slice decorated with a nice cherry, and one decorated with a steaming doggy do do, That is not exactly a fair choice.

Want both?

No just some cake without the dog turd.

That is a form of bad logistic but don't have to do anything with a group of players they are sitting at a gate in High Sec or Low Sec or 0.0 and waiting for a bit fun. ^^



Personal opinion:
I still missing a full drone focused ship as a faction ship or Marauder. (For Faction variant we could use Rogue and Sleeper drone hull that are got overworked and flyable by capsule pilots) [would have a idea for it ;D]

"Japan-Issue Dominix"? You mean that Rogue Drone one? I thought CCP put the nails in that coffin a while ago, saying something very close to "rogue drone ships would consume the capsuleer inside them".

The burden of proof is on you .2014 isn't 2005 to have missioning alts in empire to fund pvp in null . Maybe just to unwind - but the need to efficiency is lost in this scenario . I was in both places and know better .

ECM does work, however.

I'd point out that "easy to fit" pretty much ceased being a pirate ship trait when they chopped off so much powergrid from several of the cruisers.

Seems to me these are now intended to be high skillcap ships.

Why does that not surprise me? It's you, afterall, the man who turned a Megathron into an assault frigate.

It's not a coincidence that this will be extremely easy to fit with rapid heavy missile launchers. Honestly, the loss of the missile velocity bonus effectively rules out torpedoes going forward anyway.

This would probably help heavies quite a bit.

As expected of Jenn aSide. You fail at rational thought. Your total inability to think in anything other than black and white is a reminder to the types of simpletons who claim to be content with these changes. What we trained for is part and parcel to the fact that the Rattlesnake need not change so drastically at all. All it needs to come in line is more high/mid/low slots. Guristas are the only shield-tank drone and missile ships in the game. They also currently have the excellent missile velocity bonus. They are already unique enough as it is.

The game would be more interesting with new ships rathering that shitting on old ones that people have spent a lot of time training for. CCP is kicking themselves in the ass by needlessly pissing off their customers.

Oh but you ar Jenn aSide. Just another jaded no-lifer without any common sense. losing 1 missile slot is a lot different than having your Role AND Battleship bonuses changed and a -225 m3 reduction in drone bay. Don't be a moron.

still, this is more moronic black and white thinking.

It is part of the reason I picked rattlesnake. Not the sole reason. Don't be an idiot.


Wow, I didn't even know the rattlesnake had a former incarnation. Conclusive proof that these CCP is garbage when it comes to balance.

Just leave it how it is and give us more high/mid/low to boost the DPS. No reason to change Guristas so drastically. Introduce new ships if you want "new and exiciting". Why do you think its OK to **** on your customers this hard?

If the tracking bonus would be worthless on a mach, how does the vargur have an advantage over the mach by having it? If its worthless as you say, the vargur and the mach essentially have the same offensive profile, which in itself is a reason to focus on a rebalance that would further distinguish them.

Maybe I'm off base here but is this like saying:
The mach uses its mobility in lieu of a tracking bonus?
And/Or
The vargur uses tracking in lieu of mobility?

If this is the case, does that not make these offensive profiles very similar?

Then we agree. I'm not just talking about using lights and mediums in missions either. The bonused mediums are the best choice at combating cruisers when you do not want to remain stationary.

For solo, against an elite frigate, I'm having a really hard time coming up with anything to make that happen on a realistic fit truth be told (without resorting to rapid launchers or crazy bling).
A) If the rats don't surround me, they go with +100% speed, thus cutting my missile damage down.
B) If they *do* surround me, I need a stronger tank, for which I lack CPU with the tripple rigor and T2 Battleship-sized weapons, unless I go rapids, but then...
C) Keep in mind some of those rats don't have a sig larger than 30m, and travel up to 900m/s without a sig bloom.

Best I can think of, is to ignore the frigs with launchers, clear everything else up with Cruise missiles LMJD-ing around like a drunk rabbit, and then putting the frigs out of their misery from 100 - erm 80 - km with Sentries.

But that I could do with a Domi and Rails more or less, without worrying about the enemy's signature size.

no, I'm saying the changes to the rattlesnake are in a DPC-centric view. It does need to gain DPS to come in-line but there is no good reason to take away DPS from its light and medium drones. Give me one good reason why the snake shouldn't be able to keep its bonus on light and medium drones.

Anyhow can we discuss real issues that have come to light, like CPU on the Rattlesnake and capacitor on the Nightmare?

I agree. He's a wise man, by his posts.

On a slightly related note.

What was the story about people were being banned for perma shield repping sentries in missions a few years back ?

The disadvantage is that the Rattlesnake was a drone boat, now it is a missile boat. And drone pilots have lost their only shield tanked option.

I'm going to vainly try to take this thread in another direction... Pirate battleships seem to be midway between Faction and T2 Marauders, with one exception: the Vindicator (and to a lesser extent, the Machariel). Every other single Pirate battleship has at least one utility high - except the Vindicator. Thus, I'm suggesting the following:

Vindicator
Specs: 7h(-1), 5m, 8l(+1); 6 turrets(-2)
Roll Bonus: 75% to large hybrid weapon damage
This is 4.5% less overall damage, but is offset by a utility high and additional low slot.

This is a foolish and narrow-minded perspective. The increased vulnerabilities to e-war, the loss of bonuses on light and medium drones and missile velocity bonus, and massive reduction in drone bay make the Rattlesnake a decidedly worse ship. The DPS increase it got and extra survivability of 2 types of drones was not worth the heavy price in power the Snake paid. Additionally, 5 drones is better than 2. This to a ship that was already considered to be relatively under performing. It is a hard slap in the face to Guristas pilots. Apparently, a few devs desire to alter a ship to be radically and unnecessarily different trumps the desires of the majority of its pilot who choose to fly it for what it was.

I agree, except where you want CPU I would like to see a similar increase in the superdrone bonus to what the lighter hulls got, and CPU will probably be Ok with sub-battleship class launchers.

I do not think the ship will be weak, just that its current level will underperform slightly compared to ships with focused bonuses, and the drones take an unfair hit for the sake of the superdrone concept compared to standard droneships in the battleship weight class

Personally, I do not agree, with the first, it is now a drone ship in name only, but hopefully CCP Rise just didn't put ALL the stats regarding light and mediums because he thought we would assume they were unchanged (*hopeful*. But we will see either way) the third point I am afraid is that is it less adaptable than before so I respectfully do not agree, and neither do many others, but you are also entitled to your opinion. But regarding your second point, yes it does get a strong bonus to the missiles.

@ebag: oops, forgot that

Though I'm sure you know my point was I expect no ewar hit going from 5>2

as a solo/pve ship it will be "not the best choice by far" so to speak, and that puts it in a niche situation as a fleet ship; and a fleet doctrine based on a pirate ship hull... i don't see many out there...

I do. I fully expect the most common launcher to be either the rapid heavy or rapid light, a significant downgrade from a maximum DPS fit.

At current bonus levels you wind up with 15 effective weapons, which is competitive with other Pirate BS hulls. However drones do lighter DPS in general, and likely the launchers will be undersized.

Given the heafty drawbacks to regular drones, and the additional drawbacks of the superdrone concept, combined with the ability to engage smaller targets efficiently being moved away from drones and onto the launchers for the Rattlesnake, I dont believe the ship will be OP if given a similar DPS boost as its lighter incarnations.

As has been pointed out, that DPS has got to be applied, and you lose application when you use Battleship launchers, and must choose between DPS, Application and tank between the two weapon systems in all other fitting choices. The ship is very versitile, and can shine in DPS, Tank And application....pick two.

So are most ships, but does that really happen very often?

Honestly if you fit this ship fully as an anti frigate platform wit a full set of rapid lights, and rigs, and mods to support that role fully, then bonuses on the light drones are the least of the matter. It will go through them like a hot knife through butter. even if you do not launch a single drone.
So does the minor damage application in that single role, really justify causing such imbalance of the ship as a whole?
i do not remember anyone ever complaining that 5 mildly bonused light drones was wildly overpowered before, and apart from this niche case where they are adding a little extra to significant damage from the light launchers, why would they suddenly now?

I dont want to see the lights get bonused, except as a lesser and unwise alternative to giving it the full superdrone bonus the lighter Gurista hulls got. The Worm and Gila both got a 60% upgrade in DPS and HP on their weight class drones. I want to see that, or near that on the Rattlesnake concerning heavies and Sentries.

Yeah... I would like to see the rattlesnake putting out between 10 and 12 effective heavy/sentry drones, because thats where the balance point on the superdrone concept has been placed in the lower weight classes. I see no reason to shortchange the ship compared to other battleship class drone carriers. Breaking even on hitpoints and DPS is a solid nerf to the drones as a weapon system if they are superdroned. The idea needs the extra Hp and damage to balance the extra vunerability and lost flexibility it imposes on the drones.

A 400% bonus for 10 effective Heavy/Sentry drones would not be OP, even if it does fall short of the full bonus enjoyed by the lighter hulls.

I do not disagree with it having the possibility to be adaptable with missiles, it clearly does.
It is however less adaptable, if one wishes to use drones.

So adaptable as a description depends on whether the drones matter to one.

People who use drones are posting their worries and concerns, so that is all that is required.
They can now be read and considered.


We can all agree that the rattlesnake needed improvement to make it an effective pirate ship.
If you are a missile user, it is an improvement but clearly not a class leader unless you wish to use rapid launchers.
If you are a drone user, it is less effective and the losses exceed the gains.

Drone users use this ship too, probably will not now unless they embrace the rapid missile launcher.
To my mind that is not a description of adaptable.

I am not sure what happened to my post so I will try again.

I have a suggestion for the superdrone concept for the rattlesnake, please read it all if you have any interest in this ship.

Before anyone goes on, The Following Proposals add absolutely Zero, not one DPS. To this ship.

The superdrone concept appears to have the concept of reducing the number of drone in large fights and sentries have been the weapon needing to be reduced in quantities.

Other drones were not such a major issue..

I suggest leaving sentries exactly the same as the current rebalance thread.


As for the other drones I leaving the 2 heavy drones exactly the same as currently. They will be mainly ignored.

However I recommend that the medium drones gain bonuses to bring them to exactly the same damage and hitpoints as a flight of heavies.

This makes them useful and not overpowered,
They will have some application against frigates as even glancing blows will give some applied damage to fast light ships.

Each fit, whether missiles, mediums, or sentries require different fitting compromises preventing one system being overpowered by the addition of the other.

5 medium superdrones solves most of the issues we have encountered.


It gives the option of a medium and close range drone system. And a slightly longer range sentry system.

The DLA removal issue is still a problem for sentries, but the superdrones do give an alternative now with this suggestion, rather than there being no really good drone choice now.



Please say what you feel, please do not use this as just a means to attack others, but really, is it a good idea?

Heavies would vaporise a webbed frigate too.

Oh fully aware they are there as a choice and an option and very nice they are too, but you cannot fit for max missile damage and max drone damage at the same time though. Well not if you want to actually apply the damage and maintain a tank.

So they are a choice.
Would it be fair for drone users to have a choice too?

So you agree that we should request that rapid light and heavy missiles should not gain the bonus?

Because you have consistently argued that with a decent drone system they make it overpowered?

No you are actually giving up you new bonuses and have lost a great deal. The losses have been explained previously. There are no bonuses at all to drone use on the rattlesnake and plenty of nerfs.

No it actually is not.

The damage and Hp of a flight is exactly the same. No buff at all.

Not at all It is actually a nerf, because now one only has to focus fire on two. But you know this already.

So, It seems that drone Users are not permitted any role with this ship whatsoever.
If CCP rise has decided that that is the case, why did he not say so?

I see it from those who love the changes, and it is clear that discussion is not permitted as it might possibly conflict with getting absolutely everything they want.

I can understand that.

Our entire experience of drones is dismissed as irrelevant, our desire for there to be any drone role at all is describes as stupid and foolish, every concern we have is worthless and without merit, as it is not a boat that uses drones anymore, and embrace the new missile focused ship, because we should be grateful that the dominix exists.

Well drone users are not in the slightest bit amused.

We have seen a ship we use and a weapons system we use trashed and made unpleasant and useless for OUR needs.

Not due to major changes, but minor omissions that just make it subpar and annoying to use.

We do not mind you your missile focus, we like missiles as well, but we also like Drones too, and want to be able to fit for them and use them when circumstances are appropriate.

But that would not be winning for some, would it? And some have to win no matter what the cost to others, and if they are wrong, they have nerfed the ship for themselves as well as for everyone else.

Does that sound like a good idea?
If things go through unchanged,then there will be a role for the rattlesnake, It will just be considerably less of a role than currently.

Way to go with a rebalance thread, We can make this the new lowpoint.

it takes longer to target 5 drones than 2 and it is much easier to just have to lock onto 2 drones.

Additionally, whenever one of your dones gets webbed or you have to pull it back you lose 50% of your drone DPS.

Yes it is harder to deal with 5 drones than just 2.

How are you this stupid?

Just stop posting.

Please do not be deliberately deceptive, that was a separate discussion regarding a possible solution of creating new medium superdrones and removing the ability to fit rapid light and medium missiles if you were so concerned about any drone changes whatsoever in combination with rapids making the ship wildly overpowered. You really did not like that idea at all, rapids must never be touched, much better to make sure drones could never be effective.

There is no need to pick and choose and to be selective with quoting. We all know the issues.and we all know each others position.

Is it not a better idea to find a place where both benefit from this rebalance? Drone users and missile users too?

Ok very very tired of this. i will reply to no post of yours whatsoever, I am reporting you for repeated goading, and that is quite enough of you.

The snake currently has missiles.
So?
Now it has superdrones, they are different.
Now when one dies, you lose 50% of your potential drone damage.

Now it is significantly less effective as a drone boat.

Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.

And you could put 250mm Arty on a Machariel, that doesn't mean you should.

Sorry it is not meant as a disparagement , it is an attempt to respond to the denial that the drone weapons system is worse off than before.
I am not disputing that there are fits to change how things are dealt with, but overall, they do not cure the problems created, they just move the problem.

I am asking for truly effective superdrones that restore their capabilities, while doing things in a different way. My rabbit post a few pages back shows my thinking in a role playing sense.

I believe with a good superdrone weapons system, effective against all rat classes, will make an excellent PvE and PvP brawler.

Currently it is a mishmash of interesting ideas that are not tied together.

Very very little is needed to get this ship worthwhile.

I won't repeat what, it must be clear by now, but what is good about the Gila can be good for the rattlesnake


Edit:- the Rabbit post was a long way back, so here is the link to make things easier Rp rattlesnake letter from Rabbit

(But i have no objection to sentries or heavies and ewar being used as well.)

you obviously don't know very much about how a rattlesnake is played. If you are using cruise missiles on frigates, you are doing it wrong.

learn to play before you come here spouting ignorance.

Apparently either the Gallente are secretly backing all sorts of people, or their ship designers need to rethink security.

Serpentis
Angel
Gurista
SOE
Mordu's Legion

I can see the last two just plain hiring teams...SOE are kinda creepy humanitarian and Mordu are mercs that dont engage in Piracy for its own sake. But seriously, everybody and their dog rips off Gallente ship schematics.

I fail to see how this is fundamentally any different from the proposed iteration of the Rattlesnake that CCP Rise has put forward - except that the new Rattlesnake will neither except at PvP or PvE, and most likely fall out of favor with players quickly. But insofar as I'd like to have a serious dialog about the Rattlesnake, lack of dev response to date would seem to indicate these features were set in stone long before ever being announced. CCP Rise does not have a good track record of actually listening to player input and feedback or following up with assurances to address shortfalls. I could cite recent examples but those who follow these dev announcements already know which ones I'm referring to.

This is such a load of bullish*t. Next you'll try to convince us that a polished turd such as the Nestor is in fact not absolute crap.

Of course it does. One that ensures the CFC can acquire Nestors for less than anyone else and continue to manipulate the market to artificially inflate the price. Which tells anyone with half a brain what (or who) the real driving force behind the Nestor wasGǪ because it sure as hell wasn't your average player.

The super drone idea is new and interesting, but please don't do this to the Rattlesnake. We like our drones as our primary weapon system. The Snake has never been considered OP and so it doesn't make sense that it is losing more than it is gaining with these changes.

I suggest creating new ships with the super drones so Guristas pilots won't be screwed over unnecessarily.

There claims that the Snake doesn't have a role. Why can't its role remain versatility and resistance to ewar? With these changes it has the same weaknesses as other pirate faction battleships but less real DPS.

We forgive you for not understanding the Rattlesnake, its hard to know everything about every ship. Just give it some more high/mid/low slots, please. Its DPS does need a boost but it shouldn't come at the cost of gutting everything good about it.

Do what you know to be right. This is the most reasonable solution. The majority agree it is not up to snuff and it is not a good way to treat your customers.

Additionally, considering its shield tanked, uses missiles, has a Caldari style hull, stats and maneuverability. I don't see why this ship needs to be even more like Caldari.

You do you realize that he just jumped on his alt to defend himself?

Clearly, you both have mental problems.

You demand ridicule since you can't seem to comprehend the fact that the Rattlesnake does not need to lose all its strengths for a DPS increase. Stating that keeping the current 50% bonused drones and a 400m3 drone bay will make the Snake overpowered is completely moronic.

Nobody trains for a Rattlesnake because they want a high DPS pirate faction battleship, there are still going to be other ships that do DPS better. Get a clue and get a life.

What is everyone leaning towards for the Rattlesnake? Rapid heavy launchers or cruise? (assuming torpedoes are out)

How about, If we are making a heavy bruiser of a battleship that uses drones, as a pirate ship we give it the same Bonus as the bonuses to heavy and sentries as the ishtar ( plus superdrone size adjustment bonus) instead of some of the missile bonus?

So a tanky bruising ishtar, what's not to like?

It IS meant to be a pirate vessel.

if ccp didn't want that the gila would have 5 launchers too instead

Unless the domi has suddenly gains the ishtars heavy drone bonuses when I was not looking, I don't think so.
Especially as I specifically did not suggest the bonuses to sentries too. And certainly I did not suggest the dominix bonuses.
Heavy drone bonus does not equal Dominix.

Either way, the rattlesnake is missing it's role bonus.

Using it up because it is convenient, to balance CCPRises movement to 2 drones with the same overall damage and hitpoints is not reasonable.
It should be out on it's own as a balance correction. Call it a special bonus if one will.

I cannot believe that we all got so focused on the little details,that we missed that the ship, a PIRATE ship had no role bonus.

Somewhat interesting conclusion.
However.
1. If something has capable drones, that does not make it a dominix.
2. If you fit smaller weapons bonused or otherwise, the poor drone implementation, makes for a less than ideal platform.Sure good against small targets, now you only have an ineffective (but not incapable) capability if a larger target appears. Not exactly a good idea.......
3. There is still no role bonus, a pirate ship without a role bonus. If it was added to missiles you would be the first to cry overpowered.. Possibly.
4. Improving the heavy drones abilities without increasing DPS would be a sensible use of the role bonus.
5. If you have a better idea for the role bonus, please suggest it. At the moment the ship is NOT a great pirate ship, just slightly reworked, with a nerf to balance a bufff, and not something that is going to fire the imagination.
unless one is easily impressed.

1. I am sorry, but any ship that used drones is NOT a domi unless it actually is
Just as any ship that uses missiles is not a CN raven.
2. It is not possible to fit a rack of rapid lights and rapid heavy missiles at the same time, so how is THAT meant to work?
3. Rattlesnake role bonus, "exactly the same as before with fewer drones" hardly ,in any sane universe, equals a role bonus. Come on? You can argue even about that?
4. Ok you have a role you are happy with. Now that is at least an honest comment.

Really I am afraid that I will not be replying to you further. There is no point when you ignore the reply, to just repeat your assumptions. Either that or you are doing it just for fun. Either way, not going to waste the time and effort involved.

OK lets stop getting into semantics here.

The new Rattlesnake DOES have a drone role bonus.

However the new drone role bonus will be slightly nerfed compared to the current role bonus. Sentries and heavies will have identical DPS to the current rattler, mediums and lights will have 33% worse DPS than current.

Please explain why the playerbase should be so excited by a "role bonus" that is the same damage and hitpoints as before is such a wonderful feature on a pirate ship.
Please constrain the answer to relating to the bonus itself, and not missiles, the possibility of fitting officer modules, great tank, it is now a missile boat/not a drone boat the fact you like it, the other bonuses and nerfs or other distractions.

So please enlighten us poor ignorant excuses for humanity.
Why should we believe that "the same as before for sentries and heavy drones, but with less drones", is a bonus?

Or do you believe that CCP Rise is an omnipotent all knowing all seeing God like being who cannot make an oversight or ommission?

What?? You mean Ogres that do the same damage as before? Or are you sort of making an assumption it will be like a couple of cruisers as against five destroyers? Both with the same overall total hitpoints! And damage. Of course it is not as if you lose anything if one gets shot or webbed is it? Not like 50% as opposed to 20% that would be silly wouldn't it to think of that as a bonus.



Interesting concept of bonus, I suppose negative could be considered a bonus too.

an ignorant statement from someone who thinks there is only one way to play a RS.

its losing its resistance to e-war

Gecko EHPGǪ 49,400 (average) with 1x T2 Drone Durability and 2x T1 Drone Durability rigs.
EM - 51,011 EHP GǪ Thermal - 47,445 EHP GǪ Kinetic - 46,946 EHP GǪ Explosive - 52,192 EHP
This assumes full V skills as well.

They are pretty scary numbers, to be sure...

do you realize that thing has almost 1890 dps and double bonus to drone hp (50% more hp on top of what is in role bonus)

I would rather believe the words from CCP rise's own mouth than the repeated claims of a random forum poster.
Maybe if he listened to what was said then he may revise his absolute certainty that he has an intimate understanding of their intentions. And in his certainty that what others who have listened are to be ridiculed.

Well as CCP rise has his own mind in this matter. I Think I will let him decide what is overpowered.
However, you may be entirely right, it may be, but pre crippling the drones on the flagship of the Gurista's that he has claimed will be the dominant drone faction, is somewhat inconsistent.
Possibly he has been over generous with the missiles?
Possibly with the new mods and the effects of the omni nerf (you Do know about that don't you?) he has decided the drones needed love and clarified where he was going at fanfest. As we do not have infinite slots and rig slots, one chooses which to emphasise, it is not possible to be max missiles and max drones.

Because as the old posting here demonstrated, boosting the missiles alone, did not make it a widely popular pirate vessel, just a little less meh in most uses.

So we give feedback , some approve, some do not, some hate, some wish everything to be the same, some wish everything spoiled.
But regardless, we give feedback to a feedback thread.

We both know that is not the case.
I am sure CCP rise is quite able to see that for himself.

Ok as this is a rant to devalue the thread i will report it.
Please post constructively, we have had hundreds of pages deleted to remove this behaviour already.

So If I am naive to believe that the flagship drone pirate faction should not have less drone ability, than a T1 battleship then you may be right, but I am in that case still correct, but you are entitled to draw that conclusion.

I really suggest you listen to the fanfest stream on youtube. It is very clear, being exceptional drone platforms is now the Guristas pirate flavour.

Well CCP rise seems to have announced a different vision, It is this I refer to. Things have changed. i am responding and giving feedback and suggestions based on the NEW vision, not the old assumptions.

They talk about reducing the number of drones but still nobody is going to be using the summer snake in pvp. The changes make the snake much much weaker in pvp, being weaker to e-war, reliance on missiles for primary dps, and ineffectiveness at combating smaller targets as a brawler.

the problem with having only 1 drone tho is some of its pve applications.
The AI changes that have them targeting drones also has them doing the ecm and jamming attacks. I have seen them web my drones. I have seen the paint my drones. so when my 1 gecko gets jammed or disrupted... there goes a butt load of my dps.

Speaking of which, would you guys stop dumping those on the market? I'm trying to get a better margin on mine and I just can't undercut you guys since you seem to have about fifty thousand to spare.

I dont recall exactly, but the numbers floating about were in the 40-50k ehp range.

I'd look back on the thread, but it's just a car crash of deleted posts once a certain alt starts spouting so it's very hard to navigate.

yes, but is that armor or shields hp? not really relevant to most, I just tend to forget to rep my drones for a while. then I have an OH S! moment when the shields go. So was wondering tank type don't want to be in the middle of a 7 space mission and half way through have to go get it repped. it will tell me if I should invest in rep drones.


answered my own question there, wouldn't have the spare bandwidth.

Does that mean Rattlesnake with Gecko drones will be OP in close combat?

The reality is, its still harder for enemies to deal with 5 drones than 2. New Rattlesnake is much weaker to E-war in multiple ways.

The Ishtar, Megathron, and Moros are so overpowered that there is absolutely no reason to ever fly any other HAC, battleship, or dreadnought, ever. These three ships are better than all their competitors at literally every relevant role.

Out of interest, what is the megathron good at? I understand they were used in the fountain war to good affect, but this was against a demoralised and disorganised opponent.

Are they any good in a skirmish, say?

Guristas just needs more high/mid/lows to bring its DPS in-line.

Ahh yes it does, it also has none of the advantages of either

No, it has different attributes - That is not advantages.

The only thing that may pass as an advantage on the new Snake, it will have 5 launchers and damage bonus to the 2 highest tanked for resists.
Nobody is yet able to say whether the Super Drone concept is good or bad as it is still unavailable for testing. Until it can be tested it is no more than theory. Unlike the other Pirate Battleships which all have proven Attributes directly related to Pvp, the Snake right now has nothing to make it "best choice" over any number of other ships.

And an RLML Raven that has less than 200 Dps is not a valid example. I personally don't want a 500 mil battleship that is a frigate killing machine but will die to a Drake.

unfortunately, a lot of the L4's are BS sized ships... rmlm's are not so good for this. neither are the rhml's though I suppose that is what the drones are for... most BS's atm don't target drones yet.

There are two Rattlesnake camps:
1. Those who love it because it's now geared towards PvP.
2. Those who hate it because they're losing their PvE functionality.

I can certainly appreciate that many are excited because of the expanded PvP possibilities, but in fairness - this is not going to be the same ship for missioning - not even close.

Not the way players geared their ships for it. They'll have to evolve.

People are betting CCP rise will get slamdunked by Fozzie and be forced to revisit this pile of fail.
(Opinions may vary this is mine)

Not hard to put right. But that requires listening to feedback.
Hopefully he eventually will respond, hopefully before the Summer.

Honestly, the Navy Scorpion is a superior platform to the Rattlesnake in every way. It's got better tank, better missile damage and application and none of the drawbacks inherent in a dual-weapon system. At best you can devote 4/7 slots on the Rattlesnake to tank (5/7 without propulsion) plus a damage control if you only utilize 2 BCU's and 3 DDA's. If you have to recall any of your drones or redeploy you're losing about 60% of your dps. You pretty much have to relegate your rigs to either missile damage application or improving drone durability, tracking or range.

Thermal and kinetic are two of the easiest resistances to counter. Meanwhile, while you're applying 25% more EM or explosive damage - I'm applying 60% more. But it's actually more than that because I can allocate 4-5 BCU's while most Rattlesnake configurations can sport maybe 2-3 max (not that the 5th adds a lot, but 1.5% is still 1.5%). With 8 mids the Navy Scorpion can easily match or out-tank a Rattlesnake and still have an extra slot for a target painter or web. I could also point out that the extra +50 configuration also allows it to run a 3x T2 Rigor/Flare combination for better damage application.

First I have to say I disagree that the ship will be bad. I'm excited to fly it if it ever hits the test server. But...

It makes me sad that I have to say this so many times in this thread. YOU CANNOT USE THE CURRENT MARKET DATA AS AN ARGUMENT FOR THE USEFULNESS OF THE SHIP. You are dealing with market speculation that is all. Once the ACTUAL new ship has been on the server FOR A MEANINGFUL AMOUNT OF TIME, then you can use that for a PARTIAL explanation. Supply will also come into play.

You are looking at market forces that are both incomplete and being manipulated. You need real data for a real argument.

Navy Scorpion
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher, rate of fire
6 Launchers, 7 highs, 8 mids, 5 lows

Rattlesnake
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
5 Launchers, 6 highs, 7 mids, 6 lows.

In theory the Snake should out perform the Navy Scorp.. Actual outcome is not certain

Let's see the fit.

The first post of the thread (havent read more) assumes orbit velocity (175m/s), which is not the speed they may approach, they may approach you at twice that.
So sure, you could probably pick the slower ones (some do approach at orbit velocity) and let the faster ones orbit you, but you are already handling a tp, drones, missile volleys....

EDIT: well , anyone can throw a vindi fit together for 2.2k dps @ 5km :)

Two things:

A) faction BCUs - no faction DDA until later
B) fury missiles have no drone equivalent. Precisions would be far lower and would be needed to shoot frigs with the launchers, this isn't a concern drones share.

It's not as simple as the paper numbers make it

Thats a non-statement, a myrm has no problems getting its damage done in l4s, yet it is hardly optimal.

I have not compared them, you did in your mind, which not my problem, is it?

I merely pointed out that "getting damage down" is such a broad term, it makes the whole thing null and void.

And you even choose to reinforce my point by further relativizing the missile application issue, thank you! :)

Noone has had it in the first place, we were talking about the fit.

Thats probably because of the available slots and two weapon systems, not primarily missile application, for example for a mjd fit you would want to have 100km control range, but would have to remove one missile launcher or use a rig, then having less space or rigors, bla bla bla, you get the point.

I guess the "interesting fitting choices" is strong with this one.

with all 5 skills fury cruise have 87 EXPv and 425 EXPr which means that using fury it will not do full damage to most armor BS
so in most cases you will have to shoot faction ammo which looses you 135 dps (3t2BCU)

to be able to do full damage to BCs you need to switch to precision cruise since even faction cruise loose ~150dps

against cruisers though even precision cruise do only a third of their dps(538) most due to velocity, ~180dps effective

So the rattlesnake is the pinnacle of good ship design, the inspiration was strong, enlightenment came during his coffee break, everyone loves this ship and we all march joyfully into the happy future.....>>>>>

* Deep, deep sarcasm above*

It was a halfarsed job.
It needs to be done properly.

just cause the majority uses it doesn't mean its the best the raven is cheap and easy to get into that's why its used a lot also its the progression from the drake which follows the same schema and most eve guides point to it as a good starting ship
the golem is a much better mission boat also mission boats fit 3 often faction target painters that alleviate the problem to a degree
a pvp rattlesnake can maybe spare one at most two slots for t2 TPs

Well, if your argument is that we can fly the rattler with 1-1.2k dps and much stuff take care of just to fly the rattler and have much stuff to take care of, then that is quite weak and thus will only continue this back and forth...

You can, but not in the way you are describing, why are you so worried, once people find the more convenient ways to fit it for 1.3-1.6k the demand will go up, just keep selling, if we nag enough for a utility highslot or something in the meantime it will not hurt, will it?