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Let's Improve T1 Cruisers!

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Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2011.11.14 23:06:00 - [1] - Quote Hi! I am a newbie and I enjoy flying T1 cruisers in fleets while training support skills, but most of them seem to be terrible and more experienced players tell me that of the 16 T1 cruisers available, only about 5 of them are worth using. T1 support cruisers and electronics cruisers in particular seem to need some help. I'm interested in flying logistics, but there is no introductory ship for me to practice with. I'm interested in ewar, but I had to crosstrain caldari in order to be able to fly a worthwhile electronics cruiser. Ideally, all T1 cruisers should have some use in pvp. T1 cruisers should be about giving newbies a cheap, low-skill platform in order to try out various playstyles and figure out which T2 ships they want to train for, rather than having to train all the way to Logi V just to see if they like it. For example, I would like to suggest the following changes for the Scythe to make it into a newbie-friendly pvp support cruiser: 4/4/3 slots instead of 5/3/3 Base CPU increased from 225 to 250 Signature radius reduced from 100 to 85 Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to mining laser yield per level. 6% increased Tracking Link Efficiency per level. 10% reduction to shield transporter capacitor use per level. 10% bonus to shield capacity per level. Role Bonus: -50% CPU need for medium shield transporters. +20% CPU need for large shield transporters. 500% bonus to range of shield transporters and tracking links. At max skills, this has 35-45% of the repping power of a scimitar at 36k range. Runs 3 medium reps with 12k EHP or 4 reps with 8k EHP. Newbies won't have max skills, but a high-skill logi pilot using this won't make real logistics cruisers pointless. The shield hp bonus is taken from the Augoror (and would extend to all T1 support cruisers), and is supposed to help the ship have at least a little bit of a tank while fitting all the things it needs to fit in 4 mids. Other support cruisers would have similar bonuses, with the Osprey having bonused shield transporters and projected ECCM, Exequror remote armor reps and remote sensor boosters, and the Augoror remote armor reps and energy transfers. A few more tweaks might be necessary, the Augoror in particular would be able to run 4 medium reps with extra lows leftover for a tank, but the idea is for these to be versatile, newbie-friendly support ships for trying out space healing. The penalty on large reps is intended to encourage using mediums instead, finally giving medium reps an intended use. Next, T1 electronics cruisers could also use a look. From what people tell me, the Bellicose is the worst of the four, and the Blackbird is the best. Despite having abysmal damage and no tank, the Blackbird is a good electronics ship because it's able to function well at the electronics role, rather than trying to be a sub-par combat ship with a bolted-on extra bonus. For example, I would make the following changes to the Bellicose: 4/5/3 slots instead of 5/4/3 Targeting range increased from 42.5km to 50km Signature radius reduced from 110 to 100 Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness per level. 5% bonus to tracking disruptor effectiveness per level. 12% bonus to logistics destabilizer effectiveness and optimal range per level. +5m3 drone bay space per level. Role Bonus: -50% capacitor need for logistics destabilizers Still able to function as a heavy tackler like the recon ships based on it, the Bellicose would lose its damage bonus and become more about electronics than damage. The extra racial ewar bonus encourages being versatile and trying things out, while crosstraining and long skill plans would still be required in order to do something well. This new focus on electronics would also be useful for countering logistics through the use of new LCM modules, something that would be more necessary than ever if support cruisers were also buffed. Logistics Destabilizer (Bellicose) - Increases the cycle time of remote armor reps, shield transporters, energy transfers. Logistics Multispectral Jammer (Blackbird) - Gives a chance to make the target ship unable to use remote armor reps, shield transporters, energy transfers for 20 seconds. Works on all races, but does not break targeting locks and does not prevent the target from doing anything else. Logistics Dampener (Celestis) - Reduces the optimal range of remote armor reps, shield transporters, energy transfers. Stops any overheating applied to these modules. Logistics Disruptor (Arbitrator) - Increases the capacitor cost of remote armor reps, shield transporters, energy transfers. By giving T1 electronics ships more in the way of useful electronics, they can be valuable in pvp in a way that doesn't step on the toes of recon ships or other T1 combat ships. By strengthening support cruisers, they can finally have some use in actual pvp, and newbies won't have to wait an entire year just to find out whether they like healing.
taintedms Army of the 4 Races Revival Of The Talocan Empire 0	Posted - 2011.11.14 23:31:00 - [2] - Quote So basically you want t2 bonuses on t1 ships? The current t1 logi cruisers already have bonuses to their logi roles, granted not as vast as you recommend, but bonuses none the less. I personally have an alt that used to run a t1 cruiser for me (ospray to be specific) and was very capable of providing a TON of logi support to my fleet. Not to say that balancing is ever a bad idea, but to some extent this is where research pays off. Also lesson to be learned here - even as a noob, if you want something in eve, you have to train skills and wait patiently. In the time you spend waiting for the skills to train, you will have already learned how to use the t1 cruisers as an effective logi, and will know how to better manage your considerably more expensive logi ship - when the time comes. Frankly if you cant handle the 40 some odd days to train to use a logi, you probably cant handle the wait for any of modules to go on it - or any of your other ships anyway.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2011.11.15 00:30:00 - [3] - Quote I don't think I've asked for any t2 bonuses for t1 ships. The Osprey can already fit 2 large reps and put out just as much throughput as what I've suggested, but has a large sig and can't survive in actual pvp for any amount of time. Meanwhile the Scythe recommends the Logistics Chief Basic certificate, yet can't reasonably use anything on it. I asked for the Scythe to get the Osprey's bonus (and the Augoror to get the Exequror's) so the support cruisers can all perform basic logistics, plus a few minor tweaks for utility and so that they don't die to a BC in seconds. It's really kind of jarring that the t2 logistics is one of the most useful, in-demand ships in the entire game, yet the t1 logistics is less useful than the rifters my alliance gives out for free. Quote: Also lesson to be learned here - even as a noob, if you want something in eve, you have to train skills and wait patiently. I didn't have to wait at all, I just crosstrained into a different race and now I'm plenty useful with rifters and blackbirds. I wanted to try a useful t1 cruiser and the blackbird is it, to the point where I would like other electronics cruisers to be similarly useful. I would also like to practice logistics while I wait however long it takes to do support skills, but the consensus is literally just "fly a rifter instead". I like flying a rifter, but I'd also like being able to find out whether I enjoy space healing or not without having to train a whole cruiser 5 and logistics 4 and several different support skills to 5. Finding out that I don't like it when I'm flying t1 ships would mean I can train for something I will like instead.
tankus2 Endless Destruction Imperial Ascension 12	Posted - 2011.11.15 01:42:00 - [4] - Quote Given how other t1 ships (baring destroyers and battlecruisers) are stacked with bonuses, it would seem silly to give a cruiser more than two bonuses. Currently, all four race's cruisers shine as they currently do, though I do see where you are coming from. If it doesn't rr shields, energy, or armor OR can't use ECMs, its useless in a PVP environment. Not many people are going to go the lengths to signal suppress a ship to oblivion or disrupt turrets, unless they can keep a fair distance away from the target or outrun the target's newfound tracking bonus. But even then, simply shutting down the ship via ECMs is an easy, 'can sit n shoot now' option that people like. Oddly enough, there isn't enough people who target paint. Get one target painter with a bunch of arty-tempests and I guarantee that even armorHACs won't last long when their sig radius makes a drake look tiny. With remote tracking links, also makes short work of interceptors or other superfast warships (fagabonds!) Where the science gets done
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.11.30 21:09:00 - [5] - Quote Quote: It's really kind of jarring that the t2 logistics is one of the most useful, in-demand ships in the entire game, yet the t1 logistics is less useful than the rifters my alliance gives out for free.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.12.01 07:55:00 - [6] - Quote Quote: Despite having abysmal damage and no tank, the Blackbird is a good electronics ship because it's able to function well at the electronics role, rather than trying to be a sub-par combat ship with a bolted-on extra bonus.
Ninevite Shiva Morsus Mihi 2	Posted - 2011.12.01 08:18:00 - [7] - Quote OP, please keep your stupidity limited to the SomethingAwful forums. Hell, anyone who pays to join a club of idiots is...well...an idiot.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.12.01 08:24:00 - [8] - Quote Sorry if I want to contribute to 0.0 combat and fly a variety of useful ships without having 40 million sp, bittervet.
Ninevite Shiva Morsus Mihi 2	Posted - 2011.12.01 08:26:00 - [9] - Quote You should be learning how to play the game and listen to your fc right now instead complaining that your ships are underpowered. When you get to the point of knowing what you want to specialize in, then you pick the right ship. If t1 ships were buffed, t2 ships would need to be buffed even more, and you would be in the same situation. Your post = illogical.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.12.01 08:45:00 - [10] - Quote My ships aren't underpowered, because my alliance has helpful resources to teach me which ships are good and which ships are not good. I made this thread because I think the ships that are not good could be useful in fleets if they got a bit of improvement and were more focused on having a role. I'm also asking for support cruisers to actually function as a logistics training ship, because there's no way for me to know whether I want to specialize in logistics at all without dropping a million skillpoints in order to try it. A Scythe having 35% of the repping power a Scimitar does at a shorter range is hardly unreasonable when a Blackbird has 68% of the jamming power a Rook has, or a Rupture has 84% of the dps of a Muninn. You say goons fly a lot of t1 fleets, and we sure do (you're certainly in a good position to see that), but have you ever seen us flying scythes and celestis?
M1AU Farstriders New Eden Industrie Alliance 33	Posted - 2011.12.01 09:28:00 - [11] - Quote Jan'tor wrote: Hi! I am a newbie and I enjoy flying T1 cruisers in fleets while training support skills, but most of them seem to be terrible and more experienced players tell me that of the 16 T1 cruisers available, only about 5 of them are worth using. T1 support cruisers and electronics cruisers in particular seem to need some help. I'm interested in flying logistics, but there is no introductory ship for me to practice with. I'm interested in ewar, but I had to crosstrain caldari in order to be able to fly a worthwhile electronics cruiser. Ideally, all T1 cruisers should have some use in pvp. T1 cruisers should be about giving newbies a cheap, low-skill platform in order to try out various playstyles and figure out which T2 ships they want to train for, rather than having to train all the way to Logi V just to see if they like it. I also honestly think that a viable way of going the support career from the early beginning would help the game a lot! making T1 cruiser more balanced towards there T2 counterpart is a good way to start that.
Meditril Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 20	Posted - 2011.12.01 14:03:00 - [12] - Quote No, no, please stop the DPS contest... everyone just wants DPS increased on every ship. Stop that, please! Please try to think out of the box, what the game need is more tactical and strategic choices, this is exectly the opposite of "gimme more DPS" its more about unique features for different ships like e-war etc. Please come with interesting new and unique ideas for improving ships and for creation of new roles for ships.
M1AU Farstriders New Eden Industrie Alliance 33	Posted - 2011.12.01 14:10:00 - [13] - Quote Meditril wrote: No, no, please stop the DPS contest... everyone just wants DPS increased on every ship. Stop that, please! Please try to think out of the box, what the game need is more tactical and strategic choices, this is exectly the opposite of "gimme more DPS" its more about unique features for different ships like e-war etc. Please come with interesting new and unique ideas for improving ships and for creation of new roles for ships. In my opinion there are already some interesting roles in the game, but as the OP said correctly, there are a few T1 ships which can not handle the supposed role (like remote repair role and the like) accordingly. So take these existing roles and work on top of them. I would start with T1 logistics ships, because logistics is a very strategic and also very interesting role to play.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6	Posted - 2011.12.01 17:58:00 - [14] - Quote Meditril wrote: No, no, please stop the DPS contest... everyone just wants DPS increased on every ship. Stop that, please! Please try to think out of the box, what the game need is more tactical and strategic choices, this is exectly the opposite of "gimme more DPS" its more about unique features for different ships like e-war etc. Please come with interesting new and unique ideas for improving ships and for creation of new roles for ships. Wait, what? I suggested a completely new set of ewar modules and asked for electronics cruisers to have their damage reduced, so they can be good at actual electronics instead. Thanks for posting in my thread after reading only the title, I guess?
Obsidiana White-Noise 27	Posted - 2011.12.01 19:51:00 - [15] - Quote Honestly, I didn't read the whole post. I will say that you are about right on the "5 good ones" comment. Personally, I just think these ships need some more slots. Same with frigates. Ok, a touch more CPU/PG too, but not too much more. Keep this in mind though: Some cruisers are meant to server as stepping stones. The idea is that you want to outgrow them in time. When Eve first started, back before BCs were introduced, the idea of cruisers was to be a filler between frigates and battleships. There is another option: more cruisers I would like to see more ships in general. The new BCs seem like a good start. To give you an idea of what I mean, how about a cruiser with the AbaddonGÇÖs bonus or the MyrmidonGÇÖs bonus. While the Caldari have the Caracal, what about a bonus like the Raven or Drake? As for the Minmatar, maybe the Maelstrom/Cyclone. And for crying out loud, give the Gallente a decent drone frigate already.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 8	Posted - 2011.12.02 06:28:00 - [16] - Quote Jan'tor wrote: I would also like to practice logistics while I wait however long it takes to do support skills, but the consensus is literally just "fly a rifter instead". I like flying a rifter, but I'd also like being able to find out whether I enjoy space healing or not without having to train a whole cruiser 5 and logistics 4 and several different support skills to 5. Finding out that I don't like it when I'm flying t1 ships would mean I can train for something I will like instead.
LeHarfang Intersteller Masons Wonder Kids 0	Posted - 2011.12.02 07:13:00 - [17] - Quote Buffing up t1 cruisers in their specific roles too much would make their tech 2 counterparts pretty much useless. Of course, if tech 1 ships are buffed, their prices will go up as well since they will be more in demand thus they will be even less available to new players and it's obviously not what you want. PS: Quoting yourself like that only fucks up the topic and confuses people to what you want to say. At least, add something to further the discussion and explain what you mean in your response!
Schnoo The Schnoo 16	Posted - 2011.12.02 07:24:00 - [18] - Quote Well, I agree with the fact that t1 support cruisers aren't really useful, and they do need a buff to create a reason people may want to bring them.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 8	Posted - 2011.12.02 10:13:00 - [19] - Quote LeHarfang wrote: Buffing up t1 cruisers in their specific roles too much would make their tech 2 counterparts pretty much useless. Of course, if tech 1 ships are buffed, their prices will go up as well since they will be more in demand thus they will be even less available to new players and it's obviously not what you want. I don't really understand. Currently, 2 rifters will tackle better than a single jaguar. 2 ruptures will do (a lot) more damage than a single muninn. 2 blackbirds will jam more targets than a single falcon. 2 ravens will rat better than a single golem. Meanwhile, one scimitar reps better than five scythes, at 5-10 times the range. To me that seems like an outlier, and the fact that no one uses the support cruisers pretty much ever in pvp seems like a real problem. I'm not really concerned about increasing the price of the lighter t1 cruisers. Drakes and Hurricanes are the most popular ships in the whole game and they aren't very difficult for a newbie to afford. I'm also not really concerned about increasing the demand for these ships, I live in the busiest 0.0 region there is and the market data shows only 51 Scythes have been traded in the whole region in the last YEAR. There are quite a few shiptypes in my home region that have more trade volume than that every single day, some days well over double that. I'm not against the idea that some ships are supposed to be stepping stones. I'm disappointed however that these ships have no further use once you're beyond the stepping stone phase. Rifters don't suddenly become useless once you can fly a thrasher. Thoraxes don't become useless once you can fly a hyperion. It's fine if t1 support cruisers are intended to have a pve role as a stepping stone mining cruiser (or salvage cruiser, for the exequror), but that doesn't have to be where its role ends. Other traditional stepping stone mining ships like the dominix and the rokh can be used in pvp perfectly fine after a quick refit, and this could also be true for support cruisers. Improving their logistics wouldn't affect how they function as a mining cruiser at all, since if you were going to use it as a mining cruiser you'd fit mining lasers and guns rather than remote reps.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 10	Posted - 2011.12.03 00:58:00 - [20] - Quote Jan'tor wrote: Ideally, all T1 cruisers should have some use in pvp.
Ines Tegator Project ELT 35	Posted - 2011.12.03 01:26:00 - [21] - Quote relevant: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24582&find=unread The outdated tiering system is partly responsible for this, restricting slots and PG/CPU for ships that would otherwise have a valid combat role. In addition, some of the ships are just stupidly designed, like the Maller having no drones. Making these ships more flyable will go a long way towards opening up lowsec and PVP in general by reducing the cost.
Bearilian Man Eating Bears 23	Posted - 2011.12.03 02:22:00 - [22] - Quote Obsidiana wrote: Keep this in mind though: Some cruisers are meant to server as stepping stones. The idea is that you want to outgrow them in time. When Eve first started, back before BCs were introduced, the idea of cruisers was to be a filler between frigates and battleships. I would like to comment that, i bypassed most cruisers after my innicial comparison between them (within two weeks of playing i new exaclty what cruisers i liked, and still do to this day). but i suppose i often walk up stairs two at a time.. I think a little buff (if not to much)would be good. (but i agree with alot of what has been said, lets buff the no damage mods, keep combat interesting..) +1 calling yourself a noob, then laying down the stats you did. well argued
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 11	Posted - 2011.12.03 02:24:00 - [23] - Quote Thanks for your support, friends.
Ines Tegator Project ELT 36	Posted - 2011.12.03 19:34:00 - [24] - Quote Bumping with a quote and a link to the related thread in Ships and Modules. One of the most important ideas on the forums, imo. mkjkgkvk Melkan wrote: Getting rid of the teir system to add an extra 15+ ships that are currently not flown to the eve universe is probably the best thing CCP could spend their time on...
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 12	Posted - 2011.12.04 21:58:00 - [25] - Quote Having ship classes divided into tiers definitely does render many ships obsolete and those ships don't get flown very much as a result. Support cruisers and electronics cruisers don't quite have the same problem though, it seems. They aren't bad ships because another t1 ship does their job better, they're bad ships because they aren't useful at the job they're supposed to be doing. If t2 logistics ships didn't exist people still wouldn't use t1 support cruisers in fleets. That says a lot about how non-functional they are at the logistics role.
Bubanni SniggWaffe 37	Posted - 2011.12.05 03:14:00 - [26] - Quote Most of the t1 cruisers are just fine, I would rather argue that a handful could use an effective hp boost
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 13	Posted - 2011.12.15 07:20:00 - [27] - Quote So I'm still flying t1 cruisers. I have Minmatar Cruiser 5 now and I've still never flown anything but a blackbird in fleets. As someone with an interest in ewar/logistics, I would appreciate more options at the t1 level.
Mr Painless Temnava Legion TEMNAVA 23	Posted - 2011.12.15 08:36:00 - [28] - Quote The issue with T1 cruisers being underpowered is highly dubious. IMHO the problem isn't in the fact that T1 cruisers (and frigs) are underpowered and should be buffed. If you compare T1 frigs/cruisers with their T2 counterparts, it's quite obvious that the difference in performance is much smaller than difference in price. For example Caracal costs roughly 4M on the market, and Cerberus (which is basically a beefed up version of Caracal) costs 96, which is a whopping 2400% difference. Does this imply that Cerberus is 24 times better than Caracal? That one Cerberus pilot can solo take down 20+ Caracals? Not by a longshot. Still, hardly anyone ever chooses to fly Caracal over Cerberus. So why is that? First reason is that it is quite easy to skill for T2 frigs/cruisers, therefore new players can fly them in relatively short amount of time. Second reason is that it is obscenely easy to make ISK in EVE today, and this is IMHO the primary reason why hardly anyone flies T1 frigs/cruisers. So, it's not for the fact that T1 frigs/cruisers suck, it's for the fact that it's too easy to acquire their better versions. This makes them completely useless for anything else than being noobships which people fly only during time it takes them to skill for T2. As years go by, the accumulation of wealth of players grows to stupendous proportions which makes the price of ships a non-existing factor in determining what ship to fly. Today, it's not uncommon to see PvP fleets consisting of mostly T3 and faction ships, whose price is usually several times that of T2, not to even mention T1 ships. Some people today regularly fly Bhaalgorns and Machariels in PvP and aren't too much bothered with the prospect of losing them because they can compensate the loss in just a few days (in some cases, few hours). That's ridiculous. This is IMHO a fundamental problem of EVE, and CCP should really consider the impacts of this fact on gameplay.
Jan'tor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 13	Posted - 2011.12.16 08:57:00 - [29] - Quote Mr Painless wrote: If you compare T1 frigs/cruisers with their T2 counterparts, it's quite obvious that the difference in performance is much smaller than difference in price. For example Caracal costs roughly 4M on the market, and Cerberus (which is basically a beefed up version of Caracal) costs 96, which is a whopping 2400% difference. Does this imply that Cerberus is 24 times better than Caracal? That one Cerberus pilot can solo take down 20+ Caracals? Not by a longshot. Still, hardly anyone ever chooses to fly Caracal over Cerberus. So why is that? A Scimitar is easily 10-20 times more effective and survivable than a Scythe. I harp on this specific example a lot, but it's the most egregious one.
Alara IonStorm 626	Posted - 2011.12.16 09:53:00 - [30] - Quote Meditril wrote: No, no, please stop the DPS contest... everyone just wants DPS increased on every ship. Stop that, please! Please try to think out of the box, what the game need is more tactical and strategic choices, this is exectly the opposite of "gimme more DPS" its more about unique features for different ships like e-war etc. Please come with interesting new and unique ideas for improving ships and for creation of new roles for ships. This really for combat Cruisers. Look at the combat Cruisers in use currently. Sig Tanking Zealots, Kiting Cyns and Vaga's. If you want to fix T1 Cruisers you have to make them effective in a combat style that is not tank + DPS because the Nano Cane will beat you in both with more speed then most non Minmatar Cruisers and 2 Neuts to boot. Drake will beat them all in Tank / DPS / Range. If you want to reinvigorate the Cruiser class, not just T1's but Combat (T1 / Faction / Pirate / T2) Cruisers as a whole they need unique fighting roles that a Nano Hurricane can not do but better. The EWAR and Logi should be a bit more like there T2 Counter Parts. Blackbird has 2 Bonuses to its trade it knows how it is supposed to work, if only the rest could pick up the message.

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