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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 12:45:00 -
[121]
"Please don't make this about nationality j0sephine. I am a Gallente (albeit a posthuman revolutionary guerilla anarchist gallente) but I'm just as unimpressed by the wriggling and pathetic legalistic manouverings as you are."
Sorry about that, Jasmine... it did occur to me actually while writing that wasn't very fair thing to say, due to people like you out there... but then we all have shortcomings and can't resist saying things against better judgement every now and then ;s
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GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2006.05.20 13:14:00 -
[122]
Unless I'm otherwise engaged, I will come to see this for 50k, for sure. Nooey, I'm rooting for you. So, is it sunday, 20:00?
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Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 13:23:00 -
[123]
 Originally by: j0sephine
He agreed on duel conditions. Your preferences though aren't part of it but merely that, your personal preferences. And the very rules you cite allow each participant to have their own preference that doesn't affect the other.
No you are misinterpreting the rules. The optionl rules are not to be followed or not based on personal preference, they are to be decided by both participants prior to the duel at which point they become part of the rules.
So when you say: Originally by: j0sephine
It says "they" can decide (on their own, respectively) not "one of participant decides for both".
your interpretation is wrong. The correct interpretation is "both parties mutually agree" and not "on their own, respectively" or, of course "one of participant decides for both"
For this proccess I stated all my personal preferences of options for Nooey. He accepted them as they were, offering no objections. If he wanted the ship choice to remain unknown all he had to do was state that he did not wish that option (or any of the other options) active. I made it clear that it would not be a deal breaker. However once he accepted the set of options as stated, I expect him to follow them to the letter. I had no problem being the first to declare my choice allowing Nooey to not only choose his fittings but also the ship he will fly with that knowledge at hand.
In any case I don't see Nooey complaining and I am sure he does not need rules lawyers to get this done. This is not a set of rules made specifically for this duel, it is part of a continuous and pre-existing effort within the GLS to create a playing field as even as possible for dueling.
Unless Nooey himself has an issue, I will bother with this no further. Any explanations on rules interpretation provided to third parties are more than adequate.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 13:43:00 -
[124]
"No you are misinterpreting the rules. The optionl rules are not to be followed or not based on personal preference, they are to be decided by both participants prior to the duel at which point they become part of the rules."
I don't see anything in these rules stating something to such effect.
If you can't write duel rules in clear manner, that's your problem and no one else's. And since you're at the same time a participant in duel *and* author of these rules, any post-fact interpretations you provide are dubious, at best, and look like pathetic wriggling at worst.
"In any case I don't see Nooey complaining and I am sure he does not need rules lawyers to get this done."
Am sure he also doesn't need your false concern over 'if he would possibly try to back out of duel on technicalities'. Trying to publicly pin one's own cowardice to the other side involved in duel... that comes as low as it can go.
Just shut up on the matter and get on with fight. Or admit you have no guts for it, rather than look for excuses.
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Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 13:54:00 -
[125]
The duel is scheduled for tomorrow, Sunday the 21st at 22:00 EVE standard time. The location will be close to Kaaputenen (this is not arbitrary, I tried to split the distance between where I hand out and Omerta HQ, since I don't really know where Nooey is). If the location is not convenient Nooey can let me know about it.
The exact loactions will be revealed to the paying viewers prior to the duel. I strongly recommend that you are in the area at least 30 minutes prior to the duel start time, so that you can easily travel to the designated location.
Having said this, the tickets are now on sale. Forwards payments of 50000 ISK per person to me. If you purhase more than one ticket or buying a ticket for somebody else please make sure that you include their exact pilot callsign.
In the event that the duel is cancelled or one of the participants fails to appear or forfeits, full ticket price refunds will be made, but travel time and expances will not be refunded.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 13:58:00 -
[126]
To be honest the Glamour Syndicate dueling rules have offended my sense of honour Shemar. They are obviously intended to allow cowardly dogs to walk away from challenges on their bellies under the covering fire of legal suits rather than ensuring a prompt and satisfying exchange of weapons fire. Therefore I'd like to challenge you to a duel as well!
And before we get a load of belly-aching about the loss of crews and inhumane nature of the thing, yes, I'm very happy to fly an Interceptor against you so its nobody else's life at stake in the thing.
Here's my rules.
2 of us warp to a planet in a 0.0 system.
Only one ship comes back.
The end.
_________________
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Kaleigh Doyle
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Posted - 2006.05.20 13:59:00 -
[127]
Stop trying to wriggle out of the duel Shemar! Selling tickets won't save you!
*grins*
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Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:00:00 -
[128]
Originally by: j0sephine
If you can't write duel rules in clear manner, that's your problem and no one else's. And since you're at the same time a participant in duel *and* author of these rules, any post-fact interpretations you provide are dubious, at best, and look like pathetic wriggling at worst.
The rules are written and being used by reasonable concenting adults looking for a fair fight, not people looking to twist them for an advantage.
If in your head "If I feel like it I reveal my ship but if I don't I keep it a secret" makes more sense than "Either we both reveal our ships or neither does" as a rule that's your problem.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:04:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
To be honest the Glamour Syndicate dueling rules have offended my sense of honour Shemar. They are obviously intended to allow cowardly dogs to walk away from challenges on their bellies under the covering fire of legal suits rather than ensuring a prompt and satisfying exchange of weapons fire.
I gave Nooey the option to change any of these rules. He did not take it. End of story.
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Therefore I'd like to challenge you to a duel as well!
And before we get a load of belly-aching about the loss of crews and inhumane nature of the thing, yes, I'm very happy to fly an Interceptor against you so its nobody else's life at stake in the thing.
Here's my rules.
2 of us warp to a planet in a 0.0 system.
Only one ship comes back.
The end.
I don't fly interceptors. A duel with you has very little commercial value and even if it did, I am not stupid enough to announce my scheduled presence in a low sec or 0.0 system. I have nothing to gain by dueling you.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:08:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle
Stop trying to wriggle out of the duel Shemar! Selling tickets won't save you!
*grins*
Hahaha!
You know it's all about the bottom line Kaleigh 
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:26:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 20/05/2006 14:26:22
Originally by: Shemar
I don't fly interceptors. A duel with you has very little commercial value and even if it did, I am not stupid enough to announce my scheduled presence in a low sec or 0.0 system. I have nothing to gain by dueling you.
I'd be happy to use a larger ship you can fly Shemar. And really, I suspect you overvalue your own reputation grotesquely if you think there'd be many people waiting to eliminate you the moment you arrived in a 0.0 system. 0.0 is not the terrifying hive of bloodshed and arbitary instant murder you seem to think it is Shemar, if you'd paid a little more attention during those Starfraction orientation lectures you might know this
Anyway, my challenge is not about your financial bottom line Shemar. Its because I think you're a big fat legalistic poltroon trying to wriggle and worm your way out of what should be a pretty simple engagement.
If you don't have the courage to fight then fair enough. I think people can draw their own conclusions as to your worth henceafter. Don't say I never gave you the chance to step up though
_________________
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GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:49:00 -
[132]
Edited by: GoGo Yubari on 20/05/2006 14:50:31
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
And really, I suspect you overvalue your own reputation grotesquely if you think there'd be many people waiting to eliminate you the moment you arrived in a 0.0 system. 0.0 is not the terrifying hive of bloodshed and arbitary instant murder you seem to think it is Shemar, if you'd paid a little more attention during those Starfraction orientation lectures you might know this
But dear Jasmine, 0.0 is where such vile villains as the dreadful Intaki of the Syndicate live!
It must be an atrocious dump!
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Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:58:00 -
[133]
Following the rules agreed upon, especially after I have done my part is not too much to ask Jasmine. I am sure Nooey is not that petty anyway and the point is moot.
As for dueling you, Jasmine, you missed the entire point. I have nothing to gain. Say I kill your ship, so what? Where is the profit? Where is the incentive to go to all the trouble and risk resources? I certainly don't have strong enough feelings about you to make it worth my time just for the pure satisfaction of it.
If you want a fair duel in high sec, so people can freely attend and I can sell tickets and take bets and are willing to wait a couple of weeks so that viewers do not get flooded with new material and lose interest, I'll give you your duel. And the rules do provide for not disclosing what ship you will fly, all you have to do is ask for that option before agreeing to a set of options, if me knowing what you will fly is such a big threat to you.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 15:05:00 -
[134]
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
But dear Jasmine, 0.0 is where such vile villains as the dreadful Intaki of the Syndicate live!
It must be an atrocious dump!
Jasmine knows very well that I have spent time in 0.0. I still have assets up in the North. I am quite capable of going anywhere I want but frankly I don't see the incentive.
As for "And really, I suspect you overvalue your own reputation grotesquely if you think there'd be many people waiting to eliminate you" it's funny coming from the woman wanting to shoot me on a topic about another man also going to great lengths to shoot me.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 15:39:00 -
[135]
"The rules are written and being used by reasonable concenting adults looking for a fair fight, not people looking to twist them for an advantage.
If in your head "If I feel like it I reveal my ship but if I don't I keep it a secret" makes more sense than "Either we both reveal our ships or neither does" as a rule that's your problem."
Being able to provide your opponent with information abot ship you plan to use or to withold it from them, while leaving them full choice if they reciprocate... allows for simple and very flexible set of handicaps applied to fight. Considerably more broad than "i'll show you mine if you show me yours" mindest that dominates playgrounds.
Hardly a problem, and far from something too complicated for the 'reasonable adult' to grasp...
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Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 15:48:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Shemar on 20/05/2006 15:52:50
The rules are designed for fair fights, not providing handicaps to either side*. The issue never came up with any of the duels arranged within GLS and allies. I do not disagree that if I wanted to safe-guard against people trying to abuse the rules we would have to make the writing a lot more specific and complicated, but frankly I have no interestd in dealing with or catering to people who would do that.
*Edit: And even assuming it could make sense in a friendly duel, how could it possibly make sense in a hostile one and why would I ever willingly give Nooey an advantage?
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.05.20 15:52:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Shemar
Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle
Stop trying to wriggle out of the duel Shemar! Selling tickets won't save you!
*grins*
Hahaha!
You know it's all about the bottom line Kaleigh
The bottom line? How Caldari of you.
Your next step is giving up those absurd notoions of 'fanshion' you have for those ugly costumes you people wear, and the garbage you smear all over your face. Makeup, what a joke. Are the 'pretty' Gallente so ugly that they need help fixing themselves?
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Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 15:55:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Your next step is giving up those absurd notoions of 'fanshion' you have for those ugly costumes you people wear, and the garbage you smear all over your face. Makeup, what a joke. Are the 'pretty' Gallente so ugly that they need help fixing themselves?
I am a fan of the natural look personally. Jeans and a t-shirt is what you will usually find me in and don't even get me started on any kind of chemical on my skin or hair. I never touch the stuff. 
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 16:33:00 -
[139]
"The rules are designed for fair fights, not providing handicaps to either side*. (..)
*Edit: And even assuming it could make sense in a friendly duel, how could it possibly make sense in a hostile one and why would I ever willingly give Nooey an advantage?"
For the very reason you claim to be most crucial to you -- to ensure 'fair fight'. That's what handicaps are for.
It's rare for both combatants to be equally skilled. Are you telling me if you were to duel someone you know to be considerably weaker, you wouldn't grant them such handicap to even the odds?
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Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2006.05.20 17:15:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Marie Trudeau on 20/05/2006 17:15:32
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Makeup, what a joke. Are the 'pretty' Gallente so ugly that they need help fixing themselves?
*Marie Trudeau coughs.
Excuse me?
I've never heard any Caldari man complain about my own choice of cosmetics before, to be honest ...
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 17:29:00 -
[141]
Edited by: j0sephine on 20/05/2006 17:30:06
"I've never heard any Caldari man complain about my own choice of cosmetics before, to be honest ... "
Well, i've heard a few complaints coming from Caldari men, who happened to find out the hard way considerable amounts of make up and liquor can make one confused about gender of Gallente winking suggestively from bar corner... but guess that's neither for here nor now... ;s
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Amial Starkiel
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Posted - 2006.05.20 18:03:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
[...]
Here's my rules.
2 of us warp to a planet in a 0.0 system.
Only one ship comes back.
The end.
With the risk of sounding like some Amarr noble, I must say that's just barbaric! Destroying each other's ships (stripped of crew) is one thing. A test of skill, then metal scraps floating in space. I could pay to watch that.
Going to 0.0 space must be for one reason only -- to avoid the long arm of the law if you fire on the other's helpless pod. What's the skill in firing at a pod? This kind of "honour" should have been left behind a thousand years ago. Murder is what it is, nothing more nothing less.
Don't know either of the combattants or what grudges are involved and it doesn't really matter to me to be honest. But a nice, exiting old-fashioned duel I could enjoy watching. If I wanted to see someone murder another human I'd go get a snuff-reel over the counter at some station bazaar ... 
/Amial
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.05.20 18:40:00 -
[143]
I get the feeling Shemar thinks he's going to lose, and getting his face on Galnet as many times as possible before the fight.
One does what one must, I guess.
--
Originally by: Mephysto
come on, solo-mining in a 0.4 system? Its wrong NOT to pod you...
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Vera Nosfyu
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Posted - 2006.05.20 19:12:00 -
[144]
I cannot help but find it quite ironic that a 5 page thread has spawned as a result of Nooey attempting to get Shemar to shut up.
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"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 19:54:00 -
[145]
Originally by: j0sephine
For the very reason you claim to be most crucial to you -- to ensure 'fair fight'. That's what handicaps are for.
It's rare for both combatants to be equally skilled. Are you telling me if you were to duel someone you know to be considerably weaker, you wouldn't grant them such handicap to even the odds?
Obviously our definition of 'fair fight' differs. For me it means allowing each participant to fight to the outmost of their capabilities not tailoring the rules so that they both have equal chances.
In a case where I am dueling a friend we may agree on special rules to offset potential unfairness (although, again, it has never really come up as with friends the duel is about learning not about who wins) but I can't possibly see a reason in a duel with an 'enemy'. I certainly would never ask for an advantage regardless of skill level and I can't of course speak for Nooey but I am pretty sure he is not interested in claiming his skill is inferior to mine, so again the point is moot.
Besides, measuring 'skill level' is quite arbitrary. The only possible way to get a comparative mesure would be by compairing which pilot has had their license for longer but there are so many factors that make that unusable as we all bring radically different percentages of skills that are of absolutely no use to a fight.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 20:00:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
I get the feeling Shemar thinks he's going to lose, and getting his face on Galnet as many times as possible before the fight.
One does what one must, I guess.
Care to put your ISK where your mouth is? I am still taking bets against me
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Nooey
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Posted - 2006.05.20 20:05:00 -
[147]
Yal has been kind enough to offer me a Thorax Cruiser which I have gratefully accepted with honour. It's now prepared and loaded with Nikolai's special ammunition.
Whilst I think Josephine might have pointed out an inconsistency in the rules, I don't need such things to win, they are amusing however.
____ |
Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 20:11:00 -
[148]
Excellent. I see you did not blindly choose to put your trust in inferior Caldari technology. It will be a glorious fight!
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.20 20:11:00 -
[149]
Edited by: j0sephine on 20/05/2006 20:11:48
"Obviously our definition of 'fair fight' differs. For me it means allowing each participant to fight to the outmost of their capabilities not tailoring the rules so that they both have equal chances.
In a case where I am dueling a friend we may agree on special rules to offset potential unfairness (..)"
I don't understand; what you say sounds like fighting with no handicap to either side is "fair" to you no matter how big the skill difference of these involved... except when you are dueling a friend, in which case this just-a-second-ago "fair" fight with no handicaps can be considered exactly opposite of "fair", and an offset needs to be introduced to make up for it?
You are indeed right, our definitions of "fair" differ quite a bit. Mine doesn't change depending on wheter you like person involved, or not...
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Shemar
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Posted - 2006.05.20 20:15:00 -
[150]
Originally by: j0sephine
I don't understand; what you say sounds like fighting with no handicap to either side is "fair" to you no matter how big the skill difference of these involved... except when you are dueling a friend, in which case this just-a-second-ago "fair" fight with no handicaps can be considered exactly opposite of "fair", and an offset needs to be introduced to make up for it?
You are indeed right, our definitions of "fair" differ quite a bit. Mine doesn't change depending on wheter you like person involved, or not...
Don't twist what I said. I have never fought a duel where any of the participants asked for any kind of handicap, nor have I ever considered it. If a friend of measurable lower capabilities asked me to modify the rules to give him an unfair advantage so that he would have a better chance of winning I would consider it, although, again, it has never come up and I still don't see why anyone would ask for that.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
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