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Denrace	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:18:00 - [1] Edited by: Denrace on 17/05/2006 13:18:59 Is it me or is the Bonus to warfare links on Fleet COmmand Ships pretty useless? 3% per level? Its a joke. Look at this: Lets assume Siege Warfare V, Siege Warfare Spec 4, Squad Command 4, COmmand Ships 4. Not insane skills, but still pretty decent. If I fit a Siege Warfare link on my Damnation, it registers around 11% bonus or something with NO bonus applied through the ship. Damnation, of course, being armour links specialised. If I fit one on my Vulture, its around 12.5%. Thats right, the ships SPECIFIC bonus gives me a whopping 1.5% increase. Just why is it so ludicrously low and pathetic? Feel free to argue or add to this post, centered around FLEET command ships. Den ________________________________________
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:27:00 - [2] Who cares, theyre ULTRA HEAVY ASSAULT SHIPS BABAH On a more serious note, yeah a bit of a boost to the command part of these ships wouldnt hurt. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:28:00 - [3] They should increase that 3 to 10! omg 10! Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Stamm	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:29:00 - [4] Only one of each type of bonus can apply to any fleet. The ability to get an extra 15% out of that bonus is not to be sniffed at.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:37:00 - [5] what is wrong with 3% i think they are pretty good atm, and remember that bonous applies to 3 links and u can even add more links, i think upto 7 and that 11% to 12.5% isnt a 1.5% increase and you know it! incrasing ur shields exp res from base of 60% to 80% isnt a 20% incrase its a 50% incrase!!!!!! and thats how those work! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:39:00 - [6] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 17/05/2006 13:42:19 Originally by: Gronsak what is wrong with 3% i think they are pretty good atm, and remember that bonous applies to 3 links and u can even add more links, i think upto 7 and that 11% to 12.5% isnt a 1.5% increase and you know it! incrasing ur shields exp res from base of 60% to 80% isnt a 20% incrase its a 50% incrase!!!!!! and thats how those work! but the warfare link bonus can only apply to at most 3 of those links it's a 12% increase you get with command ships lvl 4, but that's not really much, I can use a cyclone and only have about 10% less effect than a claymore has for skirmish links. and my understanding of the bonuses the resist modules gives is that it's the same as a resist mod including stacking penalty(unless this has changed recently) - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:44:00 - [7] Remember that they get to use up to two extra links for free as well as the 3% bonus. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Exavier Macbeth	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:47:00 - [8] Also keep in mind that the bonus applys not just to you but every ship in your gang thats near you. It may be a small bonus but in a big fleet its enough to make the Command Ship a primary target :P
Cadman Weyland	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 17/05/2006 13:53:25 Originally by: Reatu Krentor it's a 12% increase you get with command ships lvl 4, but that's not really much, I can use a cyclone and only have about 10% less effect than a claymore has for skirmish links. Biggest diff really is the ability to fit 3 gang mods without gimping your setup. To fit 2 mods on my BCs i need to fit a Command processor in a med, forget trying for 3. The Command Proc plays havoc with setup and the best outcome is to use Frig guns in your highs, not really ideal is it. Director of Empire Ops and Chief Carebear
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Cadman Weyland Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 17/05/2006 13:53:25 Originally by: Reatu Krentor it's a 12% increase you get with command ships lvl 4, but that's not really much, I can use a cyclone and only have about 10% less effect than a claymore has for skirmish links. Biggest diff really is the ability to fit 3 gang mods without gimping your setup. To fit 2 mods on my BCs i need to fit a Command processor in a med, forget trying for 3. The Command Proc plays havoc with setup and the best outcome is to use Frig guns in your highs, not really ideal is it. doesn't change the fact really that i can have practically the same effect from a cyclone as I can from a claymore, using 3 warfare links is a serious drain on cap as well so using 3 on a claymore is also a risk if you are going to be in combat(which prolly you won't in that case, yet cyclone is much cheaper) - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Cadman Weyland Biggest diff really is the ability to fit 3 gang mods without gimping your setup. To fit 2 mods on my BCs i need to fit a Command processor in a med, forget trying for 3. The Command Proc plays havoc with setup and the best outcome is to use Frig guns in your highs, not really ideal is it. The cap usage pretty much gimps your setup... Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Exavier Macbeth	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 17/05/2006 13:58:27 Originally by: Cadman Weyland Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 17/05/2006 13:53:25 Originally by: Reatu Krentor it's a 12% increase you get with command ships lvl 4, but that's not really much, I can use a cyclone and only have about 10% less effect than a claymore has for skirmish links. Biggest diff really is the ability to fit 3 gang mods without gimping your setup. To fit 2 mods on my BCs i need to fit a Command processor in a med, forget trying for 3. The Command Proc plays havoc with setup and the best outcome is to use Frig guns in your highs, not really ideal is it. doesn't change the fact really that i can have practically the same effect from a cyclone as I can from a claymore, using 3 warfare links is a serious drain on cap(aka gimping setup) as well so using 3 on a claymore is also a risk if you are going to be in combat(which prolly you won't in that case, yet cyclone is much cheaper) (edit: just some minor addendums , should finish before posting) Well if your looking at just the links then yes a Cyclone can be about the same. The resistances on the Command Ships though make them last longer in combat than your cyclone and also frees up slots for either a better tank or other uses. Like i said Command Ships are usually primaried on the battlefield due to thsoe links effecting every ship in the fleet. Focus Fire from enemy gangs is not pretty when it comes to a Cyclone (or any ship for that matter) but a Command ship will last longer than a Cyclone in those situations. (not by much if its a big fleet but you get the idea)
Punktious	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Gronsak incrasing ur shields exp res from base of 60% to 80% isnt a 20% incrase its a 50% incrase!!!!!! and thats how those work! yµs... please be my math teacher!!! ---------------------------- Bathing in cold water is, just like hitting yourself in the head.... nice when you stop doing it.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Exavier Macbeth Also keep in mind that the bonus applys not just to you but every ship in your gang thats near you. It may be a small bonus but in a big fleet its enough to make the Command Ship a primary target :P Uh, thats not much consolation when the modules don't do much in the first place. Some of them in fact do nothing at all! --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
dalman	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:52:00 - [15] Quite obviously the use of them is, that one single specialized pilot with a mindlink implant can run all 3 command links from one 'race' with a great bonus. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Angus Torg	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:55:00 - [16] Fleet Command Ships can fit 5 Warfare Links with a good capacitor to runs all of them non-stop. And no, Fleet Command Ships will not be primary, as they will not fly with the main fleet. The will hide at a safe spot and support the fighting fleet. These ships are not meant to kill. They are meant to prevent losses and help killing. Right?
Pointless Vengence	Posted - 2006.05.17 15:08:00 - [17] Wasn't the Wing Commander Skill (or something like that) supposed to increase the effectiveness of all gang mod bonuses? Maybe it was a skill that was "supposed" to be part of the mix but was left out for some reason. I haven't seen it being sold anywhere, and without that skill's bonuses some would consider fitting some of the gang mods . . . -Pointless
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.05.17 17:23:00 - [18] I defiantly agree... its damn useless tbh Spirits in the night! ALLLLL NIGHT!!!
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.17 17:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Angus Torg Fleet Command Ships can fit 5 Warfare Links with a good capacitor to runs all of them non-stop. And no, Fleet Command Ships will not be primary, as they will not fly with the main fleet. The will hide at a safe spot and support the fighting fleet. That takes 550cpu and 25 cap/sec to run - that requires cap mods and cpu mods to fit all slots on any of the fleet command ships. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Garia666	Posted - 2006.05.18 10:26:00 - [20] I have posted the same problems weeks ago.. however you can get your stats pretty high .. . check em out http://www.garia.net/g6/resists.JPG If your honorable brother tells you to cut your leg, you cut your leg.
Jin Entres	Posted - 2006.05.18 10:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Angus Torg The will hide at a safe spot and support the fighting fleet. These ships are not meant to kill. They are meant to prevent losses and help killing. Right? Making a ship that is supposed to sit at a safe is absurd, and not the intended use of Command Ships or any other. They have defensive bonuses for a reason. If those bonuses (or the base stats) are insufficient for them to fill their role, then that's an issue which should be looked at, but saying you should sit at a safespot after specializing in a ship for several months is just plain ridiculous (no offense intended). As for the issues, in my opinion the biggest one related to tanking is signature radius which should be brought close to cruiser level because the ships use cruiser sized boosters and reppers. And to the original post: I agree, the bonus is so little that flying a Fleet Command Ship (for warfare link purposes) over a T1 BC is sometimes hardly justified. Add to that the fact that the 4 types of links are quite unbalanced (not to mention Information Warfare Links don't even work as it is, as far as I know) between eachother while the ships are tied to only one type. The bonus is 11.2% btw, so the increase is 1.3% in practice. With a 10% per level bonus (at level 4) the increase would be 4.48% which sounds more like what it should be. The mindlink makes a huge difference, though because the bonuses stack and with maxed skills w/ mindlink that bonus would almost double which might be a bit too much. Not that someone with all those skills and the link wouldn't deserve good effects. ---
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2006.05.18 12:45:00 - [22] The difference between the fleet and field command ships ahoulf be more pronounced: Field command should be similar to a HAC, but with a gang mod; basically how they are now. Fleet command ships should be physically (shield/armour) to their T1 counterparts, but with vastly increased gang mod bonuses per level (the 10% people talk about). The general riding with the troops was something that stopped historically at the turn of the century; leaders of armies now sit miles away.
Exavier Macbeth	Posted - 2006.05.18 13:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Garia666 I have posted the same problems weeks ago.. however you can get your stats pretty high .. . check em out http://www.garia.net/g6/resists.JPG Yes but what mods do you have installed to get that :P
Yaman	Posted - 2006.05.21 13:18:00 - [24] Originally by: FireFoxx80 The difference between the fleet and field command ships ahoulf be more pronounced: Field command should be similar to a HAC, but with a gang mod; basically how they are now. Fleet command ships should be physically (shield/armour) to their T1 counterparts, but with vastly increased gang mod bonuses per level (the 10% people talk about). The general riding with the troops was something that stopped historically at the turn of the century; leaders of armies now sit miles away. No flippin' way. If the field command ships were as strong as the fleet command and the fleet command were nerfed - no one would ever get the fleet command ships.... hell no one gets them now as is . (though I did get a damnation - and to answer the previous post's question, there is no special mods to get that 90/90/90/86 ... I actually got 91/91/91/87 with normal tech2 mods AND room for expansion because my compensation skills are only lvl4...and we havn't even added any gang bonuses/warfare links) Essentially, no one is interested in helping out their fleet. AND the field command still can with one module. Take the Absolution for instance, sure it can fit one launcher but most amarr pilots will say "pass" on it as they are more trained for gunnery - and use the one module it can use for something. Then ANOTHER field command ship will use a different one. It's not hard. BUT when you have a fleet command ship, then it becomes interesting as they can hold 3 base AND don't forget the bonus to effectiveness. Now - that makes them useful, though I don't know how useful, like everyone else posting in this thread I'm speculating it's not a whole lot - but probably also like many others in this thread I havn't tried it out yet. If anything - they should boost the fleet commmand ship's bonuses. Though I'm pretty happy as it is now. There are distinct differences actually.
Pottsey	Posted - 2006.05.22 12:13:00 - [25] Edited by: Pottsey on 22/05/2006 12:13:29 ôLike i said Command Ships are usually primaried on the battlefield due to thsoe links effecting every ship in the fleet.ö Use that to your advantage and tank the fleet. You know your command ship is going be primary so take 95% or higher all around resistance. Then get some repair drones and Logistical support ships sitting at max range fixing your command ship. It should take a while for the enemy fleet to realise your Command ship is not dieing and every second longer they take to kill or switch targets is your advantage. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Cinnander	Posted - 2006.05.22 13:34:00 - [26] Could one of our resident number crunchers please run the stats on tanking a 'typical' 130km fleet (so tempests & throns) of say 20 people with the 90% resists like in that screenshot? Just want to see what would be required (fitted to the FCBC ship) to tank that, or if it's possible... and how long you'd last (eg dependant on cap charges) I don't think 95% resists will save you from a dedicated enough blob, but at the same time, if they're spending that long shooting at a single target, that gives your fleet a LOT of time to kill theirs .... so interesting compromise, perhaps the FCBC's ability will turn out to be tanking the other fleet for so long that yours can kill it >.< Cheers.
Merin Ryskin	Posted - 2006.05.22 17:58:00 - [27] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Fleet command ships should be physically (shield/armour) to their T1 counterparts, but with vastly increased gang mod bonuses per level (the 10% people talk about). The general riding with the troops was something that stopped historically at the turn of the century; leaders of armies now sit miles away. Sure, leading from the front might not be the most realistic idea ever, but a ship that's only good for sitting at a safespot is going to be a boring ship that nobody will use. Especially when the ship is a skill-demanding elite ship requiring months of training and 150 million+ ISK. ================================== Anyway, the reason the bonus is a joke: THIS SKILL That 3%/level bonus gets overshadowed too completely by the skill bonus. Any half-decent command ship pilot will have that skill, so 400% changing to 412% is a pretty underwhelming reward for a ship bonus.
SengH	Posted - 2006.05.22 18:30:00 - [28] its only useful if you have the mindlink. If you cant / dont have a mindlink just go with a t1 bc and fit com procs. Your wallet will be alot happier and your doing pretty much the same thing. Also you can afford to have like 5/6 BCs scattered around at all your jump clones.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.22 18:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 22/05/2006 12:13:29 ôLike i said Command Ships are usually primaried on the battlefield due to thsoe links effecting every ship in the fleet.ö Use that to your advantage and tank the fleet. You know your command ship is going be primary so take 95% or higher all around resistance. Then get some repair drones and Logistical support ships sitting at max range fixing your command ship. It should take a while for the enemy fleet to realise your Command ship is not dieing and every second longer they take to kill or switch targets is your advantage. If we're talking about a group of say 40 long range damage battleships, your ship will go pop after two volleys. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
SengH	Posted - 2006.05.22 18:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 22/05/2006 12:13:29 ôLike i said Command Ships are usually primaried on the battlefield due to thsoe links effecting every ship in the fleet.ö Use that to your advantage and tank the fleet. You know your command ship is going be primary so take 95% or higher all around resistance. Then get some repair drones and Logistical support ships sitting at max range fixing your command ship. It should take a while for the enemy fleet to realise your Command ship is not dieing and every second longer they take to kill or switch targets is your advantage. If we're talking about a group of say 40 long range damage battleships, your ship will go pop after two volleys. Most likely 1 if their using t2 ammo.

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