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Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.22 19:03:00 - [31] Originally by: SengH Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 22/05/2006 12:13:29 ôLike i said Command Ships are usually primaried on the battlefield due to thsoe links effecting every ship in the fleet.ö Use that to your advantage and tank the fleet. You know your command ship is going be primary so take 95% or higher all around resistance. Then get some repair drones and Logistical support ships sitting at max range fixing your command ship. It should take a while for the enemy fleet to realise your Command ship is not dieing and every second longer they take to kill or switch targets is your advantage. If we're talking about a group of say 40 long range damage battleships, your ship will go pop after two volleys. Most likely 1 if their using t2 ammo. Either way - not enough time to get out. And since your command links don't work while in warp... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
SengH	Posted - 2006.05.22 19:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: SengH Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 22/05/2006 12:13:29 ôLike i said Command Ships are usually primaried on the battlefield due to thsoe links effecting every ship in the fleet.ö Use that to your advantage and tank the fleet. You know your command ship is going be primary so take 95% or higher all around resistance. Then get some repair drones and Logistical support ships sitting at max range fixing your command ship. It should take a while for the enemy fleet to realise your Command ship is not dieing and every second longer they take to kill or switch targets is your advantage. If we're talking about a group of say 40 long range damage battleships, your ship will go pop after two volleys. Most likely 1 if their using t2 ammo. Either way - not enough time to get out. And since your command links don't work while in warp... Moral of the story.. dont be on the battlefield in the first place if you can avoid it
Loki Caldaris	Posted - 2006.05.22 19:45:00 - [33] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 22/05/2006 12:13:29 ôLike i said Command Ships are usually primaried on the battlefield due to thsoe links effecting every ship in the fleet.ö Use that to your advantage and tank the fleet. You know your command ship is going be primary so take 95% or higher all around resistance. Then get some repair drones and Logistical support ships sitting at max range fixing your command ship. It should take a while for the enemy fleet to realise your Command ship is not dieing and every second longer they take to kill or switch targets is your advantage. If we're talking about a group of say 40 long range damage battleships, your ship will go pop after two volleys. 40 damage bships = ~40,000 structure dps. With 95% resist thats 2000 dps. The natural front loading of damage on all weapons puts each volley at about 10,000 damage with an average 5 second wait. I would be very intrested to see 50 repair drones and a few logistics ships going at it to keep the command ship alive. Anything beyond 60 man will only be multi volley tankable by tier 3 bs imo.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.05.22 23:44:00 - [34] I'll reiterate here that with these skills: Command ships 4 Information Warfare 4 Squadron Command 5 That the difference when using a 2% warfare link (most common type) between a command ship and a T1 battlecruiser is a whopping 1.44%. Oh yeah that's worth it...seriously, did CCP do some of this math before introducing these ships? Because the difference of 12% to 13.44% from a ship costing 25m (fully insurable) to 140m (not) feels like a ripoff. Plus, of course, to add injury to insult, only 2 of the 3 modules work currently for information warfare (and seem to be of somewhat dubious usefulness in some instances). Raptor and Ares Fix
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.05.22 23:57:00 - [35] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/05/2006 00:01:21 "Oh yeah that's worth it...seriously, did CCP do some of this math before introducing these ships? Because the difference of 12% to 13.44% from a ship costing 25m (fully insurable) to 140m (not) feels like a ripoff." Nope, don't think they did. 15% is actually pretty good boost, especially with the other boosts from skills, implants etc adding up. You could probably make a case how the bonus should be really more like 5% per level, to match how other skills typically affects relevant modules and such... but guess CCP wants to keep it in check to avoid excessive power creep that normally happens in MMO once multiple boosts gathered over x game expansions start to accumulate. o.O;
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.23 00:09:00 - [36] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 23/05/2006 00:09:45 How about giving CBC's a -75% cap usage on command mod cap usage, or similar? That way you can use them without having to comprimise your setup as much...
Daddy's Princess	Posted - 2006.05.23 00:11:00 - [37] Many items/ships have been introduced to us pre-nerfed in the past. Maybe this is just another one of those things.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.23 00:27:00 - [38] Originally by: j0sephine You could probably make a case how the bonus should be really more like 5% per level, to match how other skills typically affects relevant modules and such... but guess CCP wants to keep it in check to avoid excessive power creep that normally happens in MMO once multiple boosts gathered over x game expansions start to accumulate. o.O; Doesn't explain why some of them just don't work... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Parallax Error	Posted - 2006.05.23 01:18:00 - [39] Oh my where to start! My concern list to do with Fleet Commands in no particular order. 1) Gang assist module cap usage. When combined with everything else you need to have a reasonable fit that extra 5 cap/sec drain per module really hurts. 2) Agility and Sig Radius. This ties in with Battlecruisers in general, but it needs a serious looking at. It makes using plates suicide as any benefit in increased HP's is nullified by the extra time needed to go to warp. The Brutix sig radius is less than 10% smaller than that of a typhoon, so to all intents and purposes you get hit pretty much the same as a BS. 3) The racial warfare links bonus. Its a waste of time, with my skills I can give a 22.5% bonus to armour warfare links, that goes up to a whopping 25.2% (a whole 2.7% increase) if I use a Damnation. Having flown both a Damnation and an Eos, I know which ship I'd rather get caught in a PvP situation with, and it's not the fat black turkey. In my opinion, the only viable Fleet Command at the moment is the Eos. It is the only ship that can carry a decent defence whilst using 3 Warfare links and the rest are left pretty gimped if you remove 3 highslots. Theres no point to using a racial Fleet Command for its bonus. 4) Bugged modules. There are several modules that are bugged including the resitance modules which are affected by stacking penalties, why when Damage Controls aren't? 5) Questionable module bonuses. I'd say theres a good proportion of the warfare links which provide very limited situation bonuses. 6) General survivability. Linked with Sig Res etc, but why on earth would most sane people fly a ship thats best left at a safespot? Although I feel this very much goes right to the heart of some problems with the current EVE combat model: ie focused fire and limited scope for utilising remote assistance modules. Can't think of anything else right now. Don't get me wrong, I love my Eos and for small scale combat it is really handy but overall I feel underwhelmed with the current state of play. I've had to train firstly for the Fleet Comamnds themselves, then buy the ship, then buy an implant requiring Cybernetics 5, train a rank 5 Char primary and then a rank 6 char primary skill to level 5 to finally get a half decent bonus. It's a hell of a path! I sincerely hope that CCP do take the time to look closely at the whole combat logistics area, theres so much scope for providing the much needed rework of massed combat.
Jagaroth	Posted - 2006.05.23 08:57:00 - [40] Originally by: Parallax Error Stuff that I agree with QFT. I can't help but feel the maths for the [fleet] command ship bonus is wrong - I hadn't realised it worked that way and it doesn't make sense. For resistances the command bonus confers less than 1% absolute with good skills (unless the ship has 0% to start with in which case the bonus might give you an additional 2%). ------
Talmssar	Posted - 2006.05.23 09:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Gronsak what is wrong with 3% i think they are pretty good atm, and remember that bonous applies to 3 links and u can even add more links, i think upto 7 and that 11% to 12.5% isnt a 1.5% increase and you know it! incrasing ur shields exp res from base of 60% to 80% isnt a 20% incrase its a 50% incrase!!!!!! and thats how those work! You are wrong abit, if you use vulture with max skills with siege warfare mods and midlink installed you get 25,75% % boost to shield resistances for exsample. Now with resistance say like 40% (kinetic) it ads up (60% /100 * 25,75) = 15,45% boost. So total 55,45% kinetic resistance. IF you use any shieldhardener benefit of that module goes ever smaller with stacking penalties. So to get 20% increase to exp dmg resistance needs (40% / 100 * 50) and there is no mod wich can achieve that. So again (40% / 100 * 25,75 ) = 10,3% wich means total 70,3% wich is roughly 25% increasement NOT 50% I just prefer that all have good time here.
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.05.23 09:55:00 - [42] Edited by: James Lyrus on 23/05/2006 09:57:30 So, on the vulture: Bit more gang bonus = good. More gang assists = good. Ship that's comparable with eagle with Heavy Assault Ships 5 = good. Price tag of 120mil (ish) = good. Er... what's not to like? It loses a bit of speed/agility/signature to the Eagle, but otherwise does a similar dps, at a similar range, but with more shield, cap, and another mid slot. It's got gunnery bonuses, where the nighthawk has missiles. Can't really comment on the others mind. -- We are recruiting
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2006.05.23 09:55:00 - [43] Quote: 4) Bugged modules. There are several modules that are bugged including the resitance modules which are affected by stacking penalties, why when Damage Controls aren't? Resistance modules didn't get the stacking penalty when they first came in... but i guess in the grand plan of CCP to extend and prolong combat they decided that adding them to the stack penalty list was the right move. Pain is meant to be felt
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2006.05.23 10:13:00 - [44] Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 23/05/2006 10:14:06 Originally by: Parallax Error 1) Gang assist module cap usage. When combined with everything else you need to have a reasonable fit that extra 5 cap/sec drain per module really hurts. 2) Agility and Sig Radius. This ties in with Battlecruisers in general, but it needs a serious looking at. It makes using plates suicide as any benefit in increased HP's is nullified by the extra time needed to go to warp. The Brutix sig radius is less than 10% smaller than that of a typhoon, so to all intents and purposes you get hit pretty much the same as a BS. 3) The racial warfare links bonus. Its a waste of time, with my skills I can give a 22.5% bonus to armour warfare links, that goes up to a whopping 25.2% (a whole 2.7% increase) if I use a Damnation. Having flown both a Damnation and an Eos, I know which ship I'd rather get caught in a PvP situation with, and it's not the fat black turkey. In my opinion, the only viable Fleet Command at the moment is the Eos. It is the only ship that can carry a decent defence whilst using 3 Warfare links and the rest are left pretty gimped if you remove 3 highslots. Theres no point to using a racial Fleet Command for its bonus. 4) Bugged modules. There are several modules that are bugged including the resitance modules which are affected by stacking penalties, why when Damage Controls aren't? 5) Questionable module bonuses. I'd say theres a good proportion of the warfare links which provide very limited situation bonuses. 6) General survivability. Linked with Sig Res etc, but why on earth would most sane people fly a ship thats best left at a safespot? Although I feel this very much goes right to the heart of some problems with the current EVE combat model: ie focused fire and limited scope for utilising remote assistance modules. 1) Yeah even using a T1 Ferox version, I'm finding myself having to load a few cap mods in order to keep the thing running (Even using missiles and other low-cap drawing weapons). 2) I'll agree there, all BCs need a sig/agility boost. 3) I'd only just read that. Makes no sense at all. I'm currently training all leadership specialisations as there is really only one useful mod in each set, but to only have the bonus affect the racial mods is just plain wrong. I'd be much happier to see a 5% bost to racial mod, and 3% boost to non-racial. 4) Fair point. Even with providing a 9% bonus to gang, I only end up with a 0.4% (or so) boost to thermal as I'm already heavily tanked. 5) Yeah, see point (3). 6) I don't mind sitting at a safespot; I can remove some guns, instead mount remote armour reppers, and generally help the fleet. Compare that to flying a 120m ship, 40m insurance (?), 75m skills, 175m mindlink to get any decent bonus; and being called primary in every engagement you enter. I might as well stick where I am with a Ferox; fly a 25m ship, 6m insurance, and get 2/3 of the bonuses. A) Boosting point 6 a little; I wouldn't mind seeing a BC with both gang mod and logistics boost.
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.05.23 10:25:00 - [45] How about changing the 3% bonus to a 5% cap use bonus on the gang mods? Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
smallgreenblur	Posted - 2006.05.23 10:34:00 - [46] I've trained for about 4 months in leadership skills over the last 6 or so, and I've watched my mates train to fly capital ships, recon ships and interdictors in that time. I told myself it would be worth it once i got into my command ships, my sleipnir and my claymore. Well my sleipnir works pretty well. No real complaints there apart from the borked t2 ammo, the agility and the fact that minmatar autocannons are generally gimped. Right, the claymore is pointless. With maxed skills and an expensive implant Igive a 35% bonus to web and warp range, same to mwd speed and 23% less sig radius. I can, however, fit the tank from hell on it, at which point the cap needed to run 3 hardners and 3 gang mods is greater than my cap recharge with 3/4DU IIs on. So much for sitting at a gate with modules running constantly. The bonuses are nice. Except I get 12% less using a fully insurable cyclone with 3 command processors on it. Perhaps it will last a little less but who takes a cyclone as primary in small or large fleet battles? I sure as hell don't. Fleet command ships need a boost, gang modules need an overhaul, and for the love of god please change the gang system. I want some actual benifit to being gang leader. There is no point creating a new class of specialist ships with uber requirements when you can do exactly the same with a ****e t1 ship. sgb C6 is recruiting ... visit www.c6-eve.com or join channel c-6 for details.
TheKiller8	Posted - 2006.05.23 10:41:00 - [47] Who cares about crappy gang assist mods when you can push 800dps and have an insane tank. .: Click 2 See My Flash Animations :.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2006.05.23 10:50:00 - [48] Originally by: TheKiller8 when you can push 800dps Only if you're not Caldari
Parallax Error	Posted - 2006.05.24 00:11:00 - [49] Edited by: Parallax Error on 24/05/2006 00:13:14 Resistance modules did not stack when first released. They seemed to change after the patch which introduced the new stacking rules, hence why I think its a bug and I really can't be arsed to write up another bug report on the subject. My point about the racial warfare bonus on Fleet Commands was (and sorry I didn't word it better). Due to the highly limited effect to gang assist effectiveness, the only Fleet Command worth flying imho is the Eos. This is purely because its the only Fleet Command that can tank, run some ECM and still have a half decent damage output even with 3 Gang assist modules fitted. Still, the whole fleet command and logistics area needs a big look at. The system is very impractical and has so much potential. [Edited for a myriad of typo's]
Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:03:00 - [50] Bump. Fix this. ________________________________________

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