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Hoshi Khanid
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Posted - 2006.05.18 11:54:00 -
[1]
OK, let me say first. I am not talking about piracy in any form. What I am talking about is the myrid of scams and thefts that are happening within Eve. Which while not exactly an exploit, they leave the victim with no legel way to get revenge.
I don't have a problem as such with either scamming or theft, it all adds to the rich tapestry of Eve. But if pirates have to put up with restrictions and the knowledge that eventually there will be somebody, somewhere hunting them down, then so should everybody who decides to follow a criminal route
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Helmut 314
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Posted - 2006.05.18 11:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Helmut 314 on 18/05/2006 11:55:26
Thats the way eve works. Most scams and thievery can be avoided by being careful. The remainder is part of the game. Think of it as everyone in this game having a chaotic evil personality...
JHENR is recruiting.
__________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
fairimear
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Posted - 2006.05.18 11:56:00 -
[3]
Edited by: fairimear on 18/05/2006 11:57:04
boho, welcome to the real world
and pirates very rearly get revenge handed to them.
o btw have you never heard of war dec, you get your corp to vote on it then you declare the theifs next corp as the taregt, then you fit guns and go kill them.
scams are easy to avoid and falling for 1 is entirly your own fault
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.05.18 11:58:00 -
[4]
Hmm.. no legal ways of getting back at the bastard. Lets see.
1: Scam back.
2: Steal back.
3: Declare war on the bastard.
4: Hire GHSC to do the evil deed of robbing the bastard blind (they are good at it, i know  ).
5: Hire some mercs to hunt and hurt him in anyways they can.
6: INSPECT the merchantdize before you claim it (escrow)
7: Don't give people access to your high value items
Thats just at the top of my head. 
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.05.18 12:03:00 -
[5]
your topic and post contradict each other
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.05.18 12:07:00 -
[6]
Ultimately no-one can force you to be scammed.
The victim is only a victim because they did something wrong.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Bowwow Meow
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Posted - 2006.05.18 12:15:00 -
[7]
Consider for a second, the only reason anyone in this game gets scammed is because they are stupid.
It is not against the rules of this game to prey on other peoples lack of intelligence.
The only problem with scamming is that there is no way to know who actually scammed you. It is far too easy to run a scam and then send the ALT to the recycler, avoiding all responsibility for that scam. I would love to see a way to track alts so that when you get scammed you can work out whose main it is, and 'thank' them personally.
If I ever got scammed, rather than be annoyed that fell victim to a moment of stupidity, I would be more annoyed that it is now impossible for me to get back at that person because they just instantly dissapear.
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Uther Doull
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Posted - 2006.05.18 12:29:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Hoshi Khanid
I don't have a problem as such with either scamming or theft, it all adds to the rich tapestry of Eve. But if pirates have to put up with restrictions and the knowledge that eventually there will be somebody, somewhere hunting them down, then so should everybody who decides to follow a criminal route
the solution to that don't ban scamming, but give victims tools to get even and hold the scammers accountable. THAT'S the problem atm, with alts and all that
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Drew Peacock
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Posted - 2006.05.18 12:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: fairimear
and pirates very rearly get revenge handed to them.
Wow, how so? Smacked bottie or something more pointed.
Originally by: fairimear
scams are easy to avoid and falling for 1 is entirly your own fault
This attitude makes the life of a scammer so much eaiser. Go read about the exploits of the GHSC and see the care that the best ones take.
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted - 2006.05.18 12:54:00 -
[10]
-k-s- the training corp I run recently had a theft, all the items in the recruits hanger were taken (lowest level hanger). Now to be quite honest we only fly frigates, and they are kept in higher up hangers, save 3-4 in the rectuits. The total loss cant have been much over 2-3mil. What irks me is that eve is sorely lacks a decent method for working out who took what and when.
For me the loss isnt about the isk. Its about the inonvenience and the breech of trust. Now recruits need to have modules ships and ammo passed to them instead of being trusted to take them & I cant with good confidence promote people knowing we have a thief in our midst.
I dont see the point in making such offences banable, with good security measures you can prevent most thefts. What I want is good logging of hangers & a little accountability. Something thats quite hard with alts about.
Now Recruiting |
Corunna ElMan
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Posted - 2006.05.18 12:57:00 -
[11]
Scammers are no more reprehensible than impulsive people who lack common sense.
If you get taken in, you're only the victim of your own foolishness.
- - - - -
"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." - Sam Brown |
Eddie Gordo
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:02:00 -
[12]
I disagree. The most effective pvp corps tend to have a ship program of some kind. The most effective industrial corps share resources. There will always be a need for shared assets and as such there is always room for people to take advantage and steal. This I dont have a problem with.
I just have a problem with the lack of tools required to work out who took your stuff (especially when its a low level hanger available to 90% of your corp and the items are as common as mud)
Now Recruiting |
Sonorra Baki
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:03:00 -
[13]
Accountability in eve is non existant. We got it in PvP, but alts make it far to easy to scam and scram.
That said, I like nice scamming schemes and people who actually makes it a profession, and dont think it scamming should be disallowed.
Its just unfair that most scammers dont put anything on the line. The reward can be immensely high, but the risk is low = Create new alt.
GHSC is an example of real scamming, with your char on the line. Escrow scamming is an example of a chance to earn billions with no risk.
This may not be work safe  -Capsicum |
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:05:00 -
[14]
No.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Eddie Gordo
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:10:00 -
[15]
To be perfectly clear I dont think it should be banable, the issue does need looking at and some sort of accountability introduced.
Now Recruiting |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:18:00 -
[16]
So instead of taking the smart route and proposing some game mechanic that allows recourse (alt accountability etc)
you simply propose to burden the GM's with protecting idiots that buy a shuttle dressed up as a freighter on escrow.
Heres a tip
>>Think about the implications of your *bright idea* before you post<<
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Uther Doull
Originally by: Hoshi Khanid
I don't have a problem as such with either scamming or theft, it all adds to the rich tapestry of Eve. But if pirates have to put up with restrictions and the knowledge that eventually there will be somebody, somewhere hunting them down, then so should everybody who decides to follow a criminal route
the solution to that don't ban scamming, but give victims tools to get even and hold the scammers accountable. THAT'S the problem atm, with alts and all that
correct.
Alts are the issue, not mains. Mains can be retaliated at, alts can not. CCP needs to let us research alts and try to discover who the mains are that profit in the end.
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Hoshi Khanid
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bowwow Meow
Consider for a second, the only reason anyone in this game gets scammed is because they are stupid.
It is not against the rules of this game to prey on other peoples lack of intelligence.
The only problem with scamming is that there is no way to know who actually scammed you. It is far too easy to run a scam and then send the ALT to the recycler, avoiding all responsibility for that scam. I would love to see a way to track alts so that when you get scammed you can work out whose main it is, and 'thank' them personally.
If I ever got scammed, rather than be annoyed that fell victim to a moment of stupidity, I would be more annoyed that it is now impossible for me to get back at that person because they just instantly dissapear.
The latter part of this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. It's not the actual scamming I have a problem with, it's the style of play with no recourse for revenge. Yes, as some say, you can wardeck them, but how do you wardeck a starter corp? how do you wardeck an alt who is killed off after the scam?
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Vegati Daxx
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:35:00 -
[19]
You have every possible tool to not get scammed.. if you still get scammed then only you are to be blaimed for your own actions, trusting someone with corp rights/loans, not inspecting escrows before claiming.
Its not that fricking hard..
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:40:00 -
[20]
So what youre saying is, youre not smart enough to protect yourself from being scammed, so Mr GM, wtfpwn these guys for me
Of course people whine, its cause your sig sucks
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Hoshi Khanid
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Vegati Daxx
You have every possible tool to not get scammed.. if you still get scammed then only you are to be blaimed for your own actions, trusting someone with corp rights/loans, not inspecting escrows before claiming.
Its not that fricking hard..
OK, first can I say, this is not a comment against just you Vegati. But again, this is something I have an issue with. The eagerness to blame victims here. Would you blame a woman who gets assaulted in real life for being out at night, or me for getting burgled because I forgot to lock my house door as I go to work?
The fact is, most who get scammed in Eve are new players still finding their feet. I think this is made worse by the fact that, on the whole Eve players are generally amongst some of the most friendly and helpful towards new players
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Vogon
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:49:00 -
[22]
But if you make scamming and theft bannable, what will I do for a living?
www.vogon.homestead.com
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Ediz Daxx
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hoshi Khanid
Originally by: Vegati Daxx
You have every possible tool to not get scammed.. if you still get scammed then only you are to be blaimed for your own actions, trusting someone with corp rights/loans, not inspecting escrows before claiming.
Its not that fricking hard..
OK, first can I say, this is not a comment against just you Vegati. But again, this is something I have an issue with. The eagerness to blame victims here. Would you blame a woman who gets assaulted in real life for being out at night, or me for getting burgled because I forgot to lock my house door as I go to work?
The fact is, most who get scammed in Eve are new players still finding their feet. I think this is made worse by the fact that, on the whole Eve players are generally amongst some of the most friendly and helpful towards new players
I really dont see how a assaulted woman in RL have anything to do with EVE scammings. But the second one is pretty much whats EVE scamming is about. YOU forgot to lock your door on your way to work(YOU did not inspect a escrow before claiming it)
And since this is a game and not RL, YOU have to make sure that the person that scammed you gets killed a billion times by a merc corp or whatever.
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Plutoinum
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 18/05/2006 13:51:39
You can avoid to be scammed. Nothing more to say about it. Although escrow scams are annoying apm, people just have to read to avoid to get scammed.
Corp theft is annoying too, especially if you really thought that the thief was something like a real friend. Then this betrayal feels the same like in RL. It's disgusting, but you can't just make it illegal. This will just end in a lot of petitions and discussion with GMs.
I'd like to see a log for the corp hangars. So that you see, who took that corp ship etc.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:52:00 -
[25]
I hereby veto this proposition.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:53:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/05/2006 13:55:15
Personally i think scamming is pretty fun and keeps everybody on their toes.
---
The Eve Wiki Project |
Flyyn
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:53:00 -
[27]
You know, you can assymble a station vault rename it, and dont lock it,turn on the logs. Everyone has access, and everything that is removed or placed inside the vault recorded.
These tools not only let you know who took what, but allows better control over inventory. Who took all that ammo? Who removed the BPC? Who is the one placeing all this junk in here?
CCP has supplied us with ALL the tools needed to prevent corp theft.
Scams on the other hand, well if you think its a good deal...then it probably aint.
Dont mind me I am just trying to catch up to DS and HK on the boards.... |
Eddie Gordo
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Posted - 2006.05.18 13:54:00 -
[28]
been racking my brain on corp theft and how to make people accountable.
new skill/agent service -- account hacking
a service or skill that allows you to view balance transfers and trades going back X months. Better the skill or agent the larger X is
Now Recruiting |
Tristan Acoma
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Posted - 2006.05.18 14:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Eddie Gordo
been racking my brain on corp theft and how to make people accountable.
new skill/agent service -- account hacking
a service or skill that allows you to view balance transfers and trades going back X months. Better the skill or agent the larger X is
That could be useful on so many levels - the espionage part of this game could become so much more refined :) Bugs, trackers, etc.
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Hoshi Mandella
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Posted - 2006.05.18 14:56:00 -
[30]
in real life you usually have authorities to go to when scammed, in EVE no NPC is going to listen to you. Unless he has a negative security status you can't bounty and since a lot of scams are done on alts, telling people to blacklist a thief/scammer doesn't do much good. Not that I think banning people would be any better, but it still isn't like "real life".
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Shando Praytor
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Posted - 2006.05.18 15:15:00 -
[31]
And people wonder why Communism doesn't work 
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:23:00 -
[32]
Don't ANY of you people actually read posts before replying to them?
"If you get scammed, it's your own fault" ... "the tools are already in place to help you avoid" ... you're answering a question the OP hasn't even asked.
The problem, for those of you unwilling or incapable of reading it for yourselves, is not that you can be scammed; it's that the scammer can simply delete the character he did it with and carrying on playing with the character that gains the profits, and he cannot in any possible way be tracked down or retaliated against.
It's hard to see exactly how protection against scamming helps you to track down a main character.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Perseus Kribentropheus
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:42:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Flyyn
You know, you can assymble a station vault rename it, and dont lock it,turn on the logs. Everyone has access, and everything that is removed or placed inside the vault recorded.
These tools not only let you know who took what, but allows better control over inventory. Who took all that ammo? Who removed the BPC? Who is the one placeing all this junk in here?
CCP has supplied us with ALL the tools needed to prevent corp theft.
Scams on the other hand, well if you think its a good deal...then it probably aint.
Sorry, Im still ignorant about stuff, can you place anything in these vaults? ships/minerals? of any size or quanity?
thanks, we were the victim of a thief, and said thief is possibly still in our corp.
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Brem Watson
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:23:00 -
[34]
It's it a scam when people try to sell you an Apoc though IM instead of posting it on escrow?
I was leaving a station one day and someone tried this on me but I didn't want the ship anyway.
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Lo3d3R
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:26:00 -
[35]
scamming etc is also part of what makes EVE unique, dont make it a standard game.
____________________
Eating Chopped Bear  |
DarkElf
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:29:00 -
[36]
Edited by: DarkElf on 18/05/2006 17:30:52
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:30:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Don't ANY of you people actually read posts before replying to them?
"If you get scammed, it's your own fault" ... "the tools are already in place to help you avoid" ... you're answering a question the OP hasn't even asked.
The problem, for those of you unwilling or incapable of reading it for yourselves, is not that you can be scammed; it's that the scammer can simply delete the character he did it with and carrying on playing with the character that gains the profits, and he cannot in any possible way be tracked down or retaliated against.
It's hard to see exactly how protection against scamming helps you to track down a main character.
No, those replies don't miss the point, they are the point.
You get scammed because you are dumb.
What difference does it make if you can ultimately track down the person who took advantage of that? It isn't going to stop you being dumb, is it?
And what are they going to do if they do track the perp down, beg for their stuff back?
All these people want is a way to point the finger at some evil mythical creature that stole their virginity, so no-one realises that they didn't actually defend it in the first place.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:33:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Avon
No, those replies don't miss the point, they are the point.
Wrong. Since you clearly missed it the first two times, let's try once more:
you're answering a question the OP hasn't even asked.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
DarkElf
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:37:00 -
[39]
Ok i've no idea what your actually complaining about. I know it's not the scamming itself, are you saying it should be banned or there should be a way of getting revenge or what? not quite clear on what your point is mate imo
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:39:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Avon
No, those replies don't miss the point, they are the point.
Wrong. Since you clearly missed it the first two times, let's try once more:
you're answering a question the OP hasn't even asked.
Well bright lad, the original post actually contains no questions, so I guess everyone is equally guilty, right?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Aerth Star
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Brem Watson
It's it a scam when people try to sell you an Apoc though IM instead of posting it on escrow?
I was leaving a station one day and someone tried this on me but I didn't want the ship anyway.
Though eve-mail or through a private convo? It can be a scam, but not always. Most of the people who try to sell online are those wanting to aviod escrow fees or taxes.
Just be careful.... NEVER accept ships that are not packaged (with the "1" in the lower right corner -- as ships can indeed be renamed). Don't give the person the money first. Don't accept the trade before examining the item and if the item is a BPC make use the details of it are correct.
--
Originally by: Perseus Kribentropheus
Originally by: Flyyn
You know, you can assymble a station vault rename it, and dont lock it,turn on the logs. Everyone has access, and everything that is removed or placed inside the vault recorded.
These tools not only let you know who took what, but allows better control over inventory. Who took all that ammo? Who removed the BPC? Who is the one placeing all this junk in here?
CCP has supplied us with ALL the tools needed to prevent corp theft.
Scams on the other hand, well if you think its a good deal...then it probably aint.
Sorry, Im still ignorant about stuff, can you place anything in these vaults? ships/minerals? of any size or quanity?
thanks, we were the victim of a thief, and said thief is possibly still in our corp.
you can place anything in a station vault. You can also have several station vaults... some locked and some "shared"
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Hoshi Khanid
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Posted - 2006.05.18 20:55:00 -
[42]
Originally by: DarkElf
Ok i've no idea what your actually complaining about. I know it's not the scamming itself, are you saying it should be banned or there should be a way of getting revenge or what? not quite clear on what your point is mate imo
OK, I should have made myself clearer, that'll teach me not to write from work. What I'm saying is there should be a chance for you to legelly exact revenge for any theft, be it through piracy, which there is, can theft, which is more or less fixed, but nothing for scamming.
The only Banning I'd like to see, is people who use alts to scam, as there is sweet FA you can do about that in game, be it legel or not.
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empireprices
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Posted - 2006.05.18 20:56:00 -
[43]
Haha HELL YEAH let's take out something that makes EVE more thrilling, sets it apart as a game and is downright fun! HIGH FIVE BRAH
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.05.18 21:19:00 -
[44]
most of the current scamming is actually more annoying and dumb than thrilling. instead of being smart or creative, the current scamming is just searching for careless or trusting people.
not sure if i can advertise this but i like it.
http://www.eve-bay.biz/ |
Dhin Xar
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Posted - 2006.05.18 21:22:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Avon
What difference does it make if you can ultimately track down the person who took advantage of that? It isn't going to stop you being dumb, is it?
Someone is far less likely to do things like clean out ammo hangars or spam escrow if they are in some way accountable. The lack of real accountability in Eve, with developer sanctioned character sales and multiple accounts, makes trusting anyone you don't already know almost impossible. I doubt the extreme paranoia is actually good for the game, especially among newer players. |
Arkanor
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Posted - 2006.05.18 21:41:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dhin Xar
Someone is far less likely to do things like clean out ammo hangars or spam escrow if they are in some way accountable. The lack of real accountability in Eve, with developer sanctioned character sales and multiple accounts, makes trusting anyone you don't already know almost impossible. I doubt the extreme paranoia is actually good for the game, especially among newer players.
I for one hate all this ridiculous paranoia, it's one thing to be on your toes, but some of this stuff gets crazy (and it is ridiculously annoying when there are hundreds of scams on escrow clogging up the REAL items.)
That said, I've never been scammed 
________________________________________________
\_/ <-- My care cup, LOOK it's empty! |
MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.05.18 21:48:00 -
[47]
I have been playing eve now for... god damm, 2 years... wow... anyway, I have never been scammed in this time.
I have run two corps in this time as well. Basically, don't give people access to bpos or anything of high value.
Escrow, inspect items.
-=====-
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Tristan Acoma
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Posted - 2006.05.18 21:52:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Tristan Acoma on 18/05/2006 21:52:05
Originally by: Dhin Xar
Originally by: Avon
What difference does it make if you can ultimately track down the person who took advantage of that? It isn't going to stop you being dumb, is it?
Someone is far less likely to do things like clean out ammo hangars or spam escrow if they are in some way accountable.
But there must be a way for them to get away with it as well - in the real world many crimes go without suspects, much less accountablity. Making it so the theif is always caught puts the kid gloves on.
Not to mention there are other ways to secure your corporate goods.
Quote:
The lack of real accountability in Eve, with developer sanctioned character sales and multiple accounts, makes trusting anyone you don't already know almost impossible.
That's true even in the real world - especially when getting into higher levels of industry. Like PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every min.".
Quote:
I doubt the extreme paranoia is actually good for the game, especially among newer players.
Because..... newer player corps are more likely to have assets worth stealing? Nah....
Because......newer players won't be recruited? Nah.... they might not be -trusted-, but trust is earned. There's a certain profit to time ratio in corporate theft.
Because.... *?*
 Sounds like FUD to me.
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Coran Ordus
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Posted - 2006.05.18 22:11:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Flyyn
You know, you can assymble a station vault rename it, and dont lock it,turn on the logs. Everyone has access, and everything that is removed or placed inside the vault recorded.
These tools not only let you know who took what, but allows better control over inventory. Who took all that ammo? Who removed the BPC? Who is the one placeing all this junk in here?
I have no idea why everyone is ignoring your solution... weirdos. It sounds ideal. I'm curious about two things though:
a) Why does no one actually use these things?
and
b) It's possible to configure things so that people don't just take the whole container, right? They obviously couldn't fit in a ship, but they could put it in their private hangar to damage the corp. (Even if they can't take things out, because that would create logs.)
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Stern Maxwell
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Posted - 2006.05.18 23:47:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Shando Praytor
And people wonder why Communism doesn't work
LOL So true...
___________________________________________
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.05.19 00:18:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Hoshi Khanid
OK, let me say first. I am not talking about piracy in any form. What I am talking about is the myrid of scams and thefts that are happening within Eve. Which while not exactly an exploit, they leave the victim with no legel way to get revenge.
I don't have a problem as such with either scamming or theft, it all adds to the rich tapestry of Eve. But if pirates have to put up with restrictions and the knowledge that eventually there will be somebody, somewhere hunting them down, then so should everybody who decides to follow a criminal route
/me gets out his canoe to navigate this river of tears.
Scamming will never be bannable unless it involves character sales or GTC sales, deal with it.
You cannot simply 'put in a system' to let you go after a corp thief, and it you want revenge:
Wardec their corp
Suicide them
Hunt them constantly if they're in lowsec
Go after allies of theirs
Use your brain
Personally, I like the last option.
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