Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.

From the building better worlds blog.

Very interesting proposal. This must be first time I have EVER seen tech 2 BPOs get a buff.

Maybe the cost of using NPC slots would neutralize the buff?

Not really a buff.

Most T2 BPO Owners produce in POS's for faster run times / factory slots.

With this update not many T2 BPO owners will do this, meaning less production speed. So while they can get a 6% boost and do more work for it, they still lose on what they are getting today in a POS.

Smart T2 BPO owners will copy in highsec POSes on alts that are untraceable (if their main is known/suspected to own T2 BPOs). Those alts will be in unremarkable 1-person corps just like the thousands of other 1-person corps in highsec that have research POSes, and the POS will be in an undesirable location (not close to trade hubs, etc).

Ask around for what merc groups charge for highsec large POS removal (usually ~1b if the POS is expected to be undefended). Would you spend a billion blowing up an unremarkable POS on the hope that it is one of the few POSes with a high value blueprint in it? Not without considerable intel.

Actually most merc group won't touch larges, regardless of expected resistance. Either way the owner can cancel their job and put the BPO back in station.

The BPO is at risk while in active transport from the POS to the station, however.

If I was fairly sure that "Climate Industries Inc" (a 1-person alt corp) were copying a Mackinaw BPO at their POS in Mirilene (a fairly unimportant system 5j from Dodixie that's not likely to be in high demand), I might well pay mercs to attack the POS and keep cloaky eyes on grid the whole time, watching for any attempt to rescue a BPO and ready to interrupt it.

However, this is something you probably wouldn't even do if you thought there was a 50% chance that Climate Industries Inc had a lower value BPO (say Null M) in their station. It's a massive undertaking.

Theoretically it's at risk, but when you can transport that BPO out in a 1m EHP proteus which could be pointing to one or more stations (or a safe in between!) and a dozen other things, the risk becomes statistically negligible.



Basically, I think we agree?

If I had a T2 BPO after these changes I would have it moved to a system with copy slots 12 jumps from a trade hub and make my copies there. Why risk a BPO like this in a POS where you have to pay for and haul ice, log in everyday to check for a wardec and all the other issues with POS's when you can safely make copies in stations away from trade hubs and save a ton over paying for a POS and fuel.

If you run 10 copy jobs for each of your three toons per day AND for some reason the cost for each job averages 100k isk, you can still run 24/7 for a month and only have to pay 90 million which saves you over buying ice for a medium POS which costs 180 million a month.

Can the cost of running jobs 12 to 15 jumps from trade hubs really go as high as 100k? If it did, new players would never get into industry and that is not what CCP is going for here by making industry easier to understand but only allowing 10 levels of research over the existing system.

While I do understand what you are saying in regards that it is faily safe to copy BPO's in the POS and just take them out "IF" war dec'd.

The issue is that means you can never ever be gone for 25hrs. As an example:

I know Joe Pilot is producing copies of 5 various T2 BPO's in his POS. I watch Joe Pilot, I see when he signs in, out, when does he seem to go away for longer periods of times, does he never log in on Mondays?

I then plan my war dec accordingly, and hit the POS before he knows it was War Dec'd. Once the POS is hit there is nothing he can do to get the BPO's safely except try and protect his POS. The BPO's are locked down in modules that are now offline, so he can't take them out.

Granted this takes some planning, knowledge and not 100%, but its still very doable.

I don't see many T2 BPO owners taking this chance, maybe I am wrong...

Not really a buff.

Most T2 BPO Owners produce in POS's for faster run times / factory slots.

With this update not many T2 BPO owners will do this, meaning less production speed. So while they can get a 6% boost and do more work for it, they still lose on what they are getting today in a POS.

The main difference is that you can create copy runs faster than you can build. Therefore the volume of commodities that can be created via tech2 BPOs (via copies) is greater than it currently is.

NPC station speed copy facilities will not produce runs faster than current POS speed manufacturing facilities. Because the POS has a speed bonus (currently at least) and the NPC station does not.

The only way to increase production is to make more runs of copies, which is going to require a POS or an outpost. Both involving some risk.

If you decide to play it safe and keep your T2 BPO in an NPC station, you will be getting a smaller output than you currently can, with increased job costs and a small increase in margin generated by the waste changes.

There is a T2 BPO buff here, but it's only accessible to those that are prepared to take some risks.

NPC station speed copy facilities will not produce runs faster than current POS speed manufacturing facilities. Because the POS has a speed bonus (currently at least) and the NPC station does not.

The only way to increase production is to make more runs of copies, which is going to require a POS or an outpost. Both involving some risk.

If you decide to play it safe and keep your T2 BPO in an NPC station, you will be getting a smaller output than you currently can, with increased job costs and a small increase in margin generated by the waste changes.

There is a T2 BPO buff here, but it's only accessible to those that are prepared to take some risks.

NPC station speed copy facilities will not produce runs faster than current POS speed manufacturing facilities. Because the POS has a speed bonus (currently at least) and the NPC station does not.

The only way to increase production is to make more runs of copies, which is going to require a POS or an outpost. Both involving some risk.

If you decide to play it safe and keep your T2 BPO in an NPC station, you will be getting a smaller output than you currently can, with increased job costs and a small increase in margin generated by the waste changes.

There is a T2 BPO buff here, but it's only accessible to those that are prepared to take some risks.

You're overlooking the other changes like "Teams".

A team with a copy speed bonus will buff T2 BPO copy speed

which combined with the overall speed changes

will allow T2 BPO holders to produce more items at zero risk than they do presently.

At present a T2 BPO holder that chooses to efficiently produce at zero risk to their BPO will use a single manufacturing slot in a POS array to produce their product. This will yield a 33% increase in yield (0.75 time) over a current station slot and give them control over slot availability and pricing.

With the first draft changes in place (the ones that will not be shipping, but are all we have to look at) that T2 BPO holder will copy their T2 BPO in station at basic speed, which can then be enhanced by implants (5% max), teams (10% max) and whatever fundamental copy time improvement CCP leave in (6.25% now, likely to be nothing at best on release). All of these bonuses come with a bundle of additional costs and problems.

Just an FYI, T2 BPOs are going to die. A lot. True story.

Nothing new there then.

The new part is that CCP themselves have now stated this. Essentially they think that the prices for T2 BPOs are artificially inflated as they are more collectibles than anything else, and the actual profit should be pushed more into the invention side. They did suggest that there would likely be a full removal at some point, but no solid info on when. The amount of sad from the T2 BPO owners in the industry panel was high.

they're more of an isk sink than anything

and the game needs those to fight inflation.

What one Dev said is

I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point.

Just an FYI, T2 BPOs are going to die. A lot. True story.

About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?

And dont start with the "lottery argument" as most T2 bpo's have swapped ownership by now.

The amount of sad from the T2 BPO owners in the industry panel was high.

A player told the panel that he had no idea about the upcoming changes when he paid for a particular T2 BPO for 90 billion isk. With the new ME changes, the BPO's value would be 18 billion isk less. In addition, because of the cost of this BPO, it would take him years to pay for it with the profit from it.

Regardless, they're not going anywhere in the near future, and they're not stomping out competition. I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point.

The person that owns a BPO isn't your biggest competitor since there's likely 30 other manufacturers placing orders on the market. Call it what it is. People complain about T2 BPOs because they think it's unfair that someone can have a slightly higher profit margin than they can.

About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?

1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number.

Fixing T2 production issues by making *more* T2 BPOs is going to be a really hard sell.

MDD

Feel free to tell me what those T2 production issues are.

I didn't mean to imply *I* thought there were problems. I thought that's what you were proposing to fix. So, what "actual issue" are you proposing to fix with that change?

MDD

I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point.

About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?

And dont start with the "lottery argument" as most T2 bpo's have swapped ownership by now.

Lucas, i like you. You have no idea what you are talking about. However, I like your posts.

CCP Fozzie gives him hope concerning the patch that T2 BPOs will get a nice benefit over the BPCs with negative ME and CCP Greyscale did not say ANY word of removal or nerf. He only lost some words to the rageing player to sooth him.

All in all T2 bpos will get better. It's about time cause there is a plenty of worthless T2 bpos. Every single player has the tools in hand for making isk and purchase a Tech2 bpo. Those who are not able to are those who are not trying to discuss objectively and rather show envy and rage and crying for removal. so ridiculous kindergarden.

Lucas give it a rest, no one here is dumb enough to fool for your master's propaganda .

Hehe. Lucas the knowsitall forum wizard. To the "they will remove t2 bpos" argument: if they wanted to, they could have done it years before. If they do in some point in future eve would have no value for me anymore for two reasons: 1. Ive invested lots of isk in my collection 2. That would be drastic non-logic move. I have another proposal. Plz remove all limited ships because ppl are paying billions of isk for them only to spin them in station. I want one but have not enough isk, so remove them please.

lol, how is it propaganda?
TBH, I don't care. Go on thinking they are going to increase in value forever regardless. When they inevitably drop, which CCP explicitly stated in the industry panel (go check) you'll be the ones crying on here how you're entitled to refunds because you paid way over the odds for you BPOs that take 20 years to turn a profit on.

Go watch the videos. Go speak to the devs. Going forward, invention is being iterated, and T2 BPOs will be phased out. You can put your fingers in your ears and say"lalala Lucas is a liar" as much as you want, but it would take you no time at all go watch the industry panel and you'll see they state in there that T2 BPOs have been a problem for a long time they've needed to do something about, that they will do something about it, that they will decrease in value, and that the won't take them away without warning, but will transition them out.

The thing is, this is not new news, this is just the first time they've explicitly stated it. Anyone that thinks that T2 BPOs will continue their upwards spiral of value forever without ever being changed is delusional. Remember, that value is what you guys have placed on it, and nothing to do with it's market value. You can't expect their functional value not to change considering the industry methods they are using avoid their use.

I watched the stream, but I think you misunderstood the whole situation there. Greyscale stated those vague formulations (like years before) cause this poor guy (who obv overpaid for an acolyte bpo; possible sale from first moon ;) ) almost started to cry and tremble or fall in a shock. If you have listened carefully, 30sec before, Fozzie encouraged him that his bpo will get more competitive through summer patch because of pos. ME and for his specific drone print, due to drone changes. There are far more important things to change in Eve than T2 bpos.
Ccp wont do anything because of one whiner at fanfest who wanted a compensation for his loss because of his own miscalculations. That's utterly ridiculous.

.... and it certainly doesn't mean they'll value them at the insanely inflated values that you guys value them at. They are certainly not going to keep working around them forever just to keep a handful of entitled owners happy.

Sounds like you are really jealy. Not a good reason for a T2 Bpo removal.

IB4L

I don't have t2 blueprint, but all what I can read here is acute verbal diarrhea. On the top, Lucas kell.

here for all "experts": https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4549454#post4549454

"When and how T II BPO's will be removed and if, how or in what form owners will be compensated is not known. CCP will make that information public if and when they decide it is time to do so. Until then, any thread on it can only be based on speculation. Hence, thread locked."

IB4L

I don't have t2 blueprint, but all what I can read here is acute verbal diarrhea. On the top, Lucas kell.

here for all "experts": https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4549454#post4549454

"When and how T II BPO's will be removed and if, how or in what form owners will be compensated is not known. CCP will make that information public if and when they decide it is time to do so. Until then, any thread on it can only be based on speculation. Hence, thread locked."

Well Lucas, we all have to thank you for your truly altruistic posts, letting everyone know of the coming changes. Anyone committing this much time to speculation has a horse in the race. What's yours?

IB4L

I don't have t2 blueprint, but all what I can read here is acute verbal diarrhea. On the top, Lucas kell.

here for all "experts": https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4549454#post4549454

"When and how T II BPO's will be removed and if, how or in what form owners will be compensated is not known. CCP will make that information public if and when they decide it is time to do so. Until then, any thread on it can only be based on speculation. Hence, thread locked."

The new T2 BPO will be the 10/10 BPO's in capital ships.
Wonder who will have a bunch of those?

@ Lucas Troll

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4587658#post4587658

Looking forward to the buff.

We'll see.
There were no plans to scrap WoD either, 2 days before they announced the scrapping of WoD.

Hey look at that T2 BPOs are already getting a slight nerf, thanks Greyscale!

Dude... your leaders "Weasel" and "Mymma" are spreading the false rumor that they will be removed, not nerfed. Please keep yourself up to date on the current market manipulation attempts of your puppetmasters. Thank you!

We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)

We are going to unify ME and TE per-level research times on all blueprints. Currently it looks like most T2 and capital BPOs have different TE and ME times. We're planning on kicking T2 BPO times up to the higher of the two values, and capital ones down to the lower of the two.

Cool. I kinda like that. They are narrowing the gap but T2 bpos will remain in game as a legitimate part and aint get removed. And they keep their advantage. So I am going on to invest my trillions of isk in those prints.