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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 62 post(s) |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
156
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP_Greyscale wrote:Unless this leads to a major expansion of invent-to-sell, the actual throughput of invention should not significantly change as a result of shorter copy times.
You are significantly changing an aspect of the T2 production system. We can expect good players to adapt. Do you have plans if they adapt and expand invent-to-sell significantly?
Converting the old blueprints Your right some of us have researched things above ME/TE 10, and your suggestion devalues that effort. You would like to see some suggestions and ideas. My first idea: Time comparison - You know how much time it would have taken to research a blueprint in the old system. You know how much time it will take to research a blueprint in the new system. Set the time equal and let the ME/TE fall into the appropriate spot. Example: You spent 1d 11h researching your Depleted Uranium S Blueprint (to perfect). You now get an ME 9 (not perfect) blueprint since it takes 1d to get there in the new system. It's not perfect? - Great now you can spend some more time researching since you like prefect blueprints. What about my extra 11h? - All extra time should be returned in some form of a credit. A quick research bonus which can be used up. This means if you spent 40 days researching the Depleted Uranium we give you a Blueprint with ME 10 (perfect) plus credit for 37 days of ME research to improve your future research. All times credited at station rates allowing benefits for those who used a POS. No favor is really given. If you did the research time then you receive a reward. People who like perfect ME will likely get their perfection back (and spend any credited time making that happen). Everyone who did the basic ME 10 research will get their time credited to them for their efforts. But someone else did the research!? And you bought their efforts for isk - congratulations! (Current holding character receives bonus time). But there are so many calculations! That is why you have a computer.
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Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
157
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Plans if invent-to-sell expands: nothing concrete, it would depend on what exactly happened, where things settled and how much of a problem we felt it was. The potential problem with this outcome is that the invention market crashes - the concern isn't that players are smart, it's worry that they might be opposite ;)
So long as you are keeping an eye on this.
CCP Greyscale wrote:We're very un-keen on making any blueprints worse as a result of this change, that feels far more painful than "wasted time" and a better blueprint.
On a purely subjective level I disagree about the feeling, and would like to give you that data point.
CCP Greyscale wrote:Time credit is something we could investigate, although it potentially requires a lot of work to allow you to cash it in.
A time credit could really salve some wounds here. Something which lets you do double time research. If you make the credit an object then, it could be an option placed on the ME and TE research screens. It seems that you already need to build optional inputs for other research related jobs like invention. You would just add that optional input to your newly developed ME and TE research screens. It would also give you a potential reward in the future. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
157
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 16:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:No no no no no.
The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.
I have no love for the T2 BPOs, but some of them were used for direct production. So they were capable of producing 100 items in the time it took to make a BPO copy for a single item. That is not where the benefit is for T2 BPO owners.
The advantage for T2 BPO owners is that with skills maxed you will be able to copy from a blueprint 6.25% faster then produce from the same blueprint. That means that T2 BPO owners are gaining a 6.25% increase in production (if they switch to the copy then produce method). |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
157
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 17:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:I'll check on recons and command ships. My understanding of the T2 market is that individual items tend to be either completely BPO-dominated or largely invention dominated. In principle I totally recognize that increased supply of cheaper goods can have an impact, but in practice there are (as I understand it) very few cases where this *actually* matters.
Doesn't it actually matter in all cases? In all cases, T2 BPO holders will increase their production rates by 6.25%.
We can cover the spectrum of all possible changes. 1) There are many inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners will increase their market share by 6.25% x current market share, because they can produce more. That will reduce the number of inventors in that market. 2) There are no inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners use their increased production to forestall the day when inventing becomes useful (when demand increases above the T2 BPO production capacity). 3) There are currently only a few inventors because the demand is barely above T2 BPO production capacity. This is your "actually" matters case, where invention no longer becomes profitable at the current time. Similarly to case 2 we can expect invention to happen again in the future when demand increases.
In all of those cases the increased production matters. The immediate effects are different but that should not stop us from considering all of them. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
157
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Kadl wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:I'll check on recons and command ships. My understanding of the T2 market is that individual items tend to be either completely BPO-dominated or largely invention dominated. In principle I totally recognize that increased supply of cheaper goods can have an impact, but in practice there are (as I understand it) very few cases where this *actually* matters. Doesn't it actually matter in all cases? In all cases, T2 BPO holders will increase their production rates by 6.25%. We can cover the spectrum of all possible changes. 1) There are many inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners will increase their market share by 6.25% x current market share, because they can produce more. That will reduce the number of inventors in that market. 2) There are no inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners use their increased production to forestall the day when inventing becomes useful (when demand increases above the T2 BPO production capacity). 3) There are currently only a few inventors because the demand is barely above T2 BPO production capacity. This is your "actually" matters case, where invention no longer becomes profitable at the current time. Similarly to case 2 we can expect invention to happen again in the future when demand increases. In all of those cases the increased production matters. The immediate effects are different but that should not stop us from considering all of them. In 1), this is only true if the market size is absolutely fixed, which seems implausible. In 2), it doesn't matter any time soon at least because most of those markets are not going to significantly expand any time soon In 3, yes this is the problem case, but I'm not aware of any markets (except possibly recons and command ships) where this is true. So yes, it always "matters" for a given value of "matters", but my concern is "when does it matter enough in practice that we actually need to change something", and the answer seems to be "very rarely". (To be clear, we're still considering not adjusting T2 BPOs and/or adjusting them less, but the above reasoning still largely holds IMO :))
It is good that you are expressing your reasoning on these points. Certain aspects matter to you more or less then they matter to me or others here, so your explanation will help people at the very least see those values.
I am not sure you are explaining yourself on situation one, where there are many inventors, sufficiently. I am happy to grant you a market size which changes based on prices. The amount of change possible is based on the profits from T2 invention. Obviously in this case T2 BPO holders will maximize their production thus increasing it by 6.25%. That added production is added to the market, reducing prices. The reduced prices may lead to some T2 inventors to leave, or everyone could stay. So some inventors leave, some stay, prices are reduced. If the prices stay the same then we can estimate that inventors will lose market share of 6.25% x T2 BPO owners current market share. A simple summary is that T2 inventors will be effected with smaller profits, lost sales, or a combination of the two.
My preference is for not improving T2 BPO production rates. I realize that you may choose something different, but I encourage you to embrace an age of increasing invention at the cost of the old wealthy powers. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 20:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Abla Tive wrote:I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.
This speed up was non trivial as I recall.
For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies (albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)
Would this impact the market?
Yes it can impact the market.
Advanced Mobile Laboratory x0.65 of copy speed
Perhaps some people will put their T2 BPOs in POSes. That is risk, and may result in it being destroyed. T2 BPOs are worth a bit of a hunt.
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Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:If we could get cargo scanners for pos modules and assembly arrays + labs dropped loot then it would be an issue. As it stands your far more likely to spend hundreds of man hours bashing High Sec pos's for t1 bpcs as you are anything juicy. Frankly even for a couple of battleship BPO's it isn't worth it.
If we get some way of kicking out serious DPS in highsec, the story changes.
More intell? I love that idea. I remember a number of years ago when updating intelligence tools was talked about. I am still waiting.
I am not sure if the risk vs reward is well balanced, but there is risk when undocking. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 20:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
tiewan wrote:As for the T2 BPO topic..
I think people like to make it a bigger issue than it is.
Over time I am sure very slowly they will be reduced in numbers without ccp needing to do anything.
Yes they will slowly be lost over time. That means that so long as the remaining T2 BPOs don't increase their production they will continue to lose their hold on the market. This is why I would like to see T2s not increase in productive power (without an increase in risk). |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 20:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lady Storm wrote:Can someone who is better at math explain to me how this is going to effect my capital prints (both components and hulls) The way im reading it, is all the component bpo anything above 10 in the current system is going to be wasted pre-patch as they will just get converted to the new system?
Am I wrong in this thinking?
Greyscale's first suggestion seems like your synopsis.
Greyscale is open to alternative suggestions (and I gave him mine). So there may be modifications in some way or another.
After everything is settled we will have Material Levels going from -4 to 10 on all of the BPOs we are using. Material Levels will also mean something different. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 20:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Quick question:
How long will it take to create 20 max run copies of an Expanded Cargohold I?
Right now, it's about 100 hours.
To fully manufacture that, (at PL 0), that's around 800 hours to manufacture.
I assume you're not going to screw the the numbers to increase the copy time here? As that would destroy invention.
I would assume they are looking at increasing the copy time here. Perhaps the max run should be modified to make things more managable?
It seems clear to me that they will need to consider many max run issues as they make these changes. |
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Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Having read through the thread I now have a few comments. Firstly, 95% nice changes. Complexity simply for complexities sake is a bad thing and the ME changes are a good simplification without loosing significant effect.
Secondly, Research credit. Please no. If you implement this it will be abused by large scale groups to do things like gain perfect titan BPO's by pooling all their credit from smaller BPO's from multiple people. A few people may loose some actual effort as a result of this change. HTFU. It's not the end of the world and you got to benefit from that all the way along anyway. (I loose some time on some of my BPO's myself like this, I'll live)
Thirdly, T2 BPO's, I do think now is the time to look at removing them. Every change to industry requires taking special steps just for them, they are a poorly thought out grandfathering from the early days, and people need to acknowledge that. The copy change may also be only an extra 6.25%, but you are looking at the wrong statistic on the market when you consider them. Currently you look at market share and say 'But it's a low market share'. Instead consider profit share. The Inventors will be cutting very slim margins of a few percent above simply selling all the components. Meaning that for every 10 Invented items, they get the profit of 1 BPO item probably. Which means that the actual profit share of T2 BPO's is vastly greater than their market share would indicate. Even a 5% market share could be as high as a 50% profit share.
Research Credit - There are simple ways to eliminate your "issue." If the credit reduces your research time by 1/2 then you will still have to spend around 12 years to gain a perfect Titan BPO (oh the game balance). I think some research credit will reduce a great deal of anger from many people.
T2 BPOs - Not going to happen. We will just have to live with these sticking around for a while. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Seith Kali wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Seith Kali wrote:I ask you again, how many do you have? Lots. I find when discussing matters like this it helps to have some first hand experience. I hear a vested interest goes a long way too. Yes, I'm not impartial. But a T2 BPO collection is not going to stop me from supporting good chages. If I see a good argument for removing or totally nerfing T2 BPOs, I'll support it. I don't think there is much danger of that though. You couldn't possibly be asking us to trust you to make suggestions for T2 BPOs.
First:
Upton Sinclair wrote:It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
Second: This is EVE. Why would we trust anyone?
Perhaps we can settle for constructive arguments? |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Althalus Stenory wrote:There are some "shadows" in this devblog I think..
You say you will remove waste in blueprints... but which waste ? Since you are speaking about reprocessing change I can only think it's Extra Materials ? But you are saying after "we're removing the current system of taking "perfect build" requirements" so you speak about the material efficiency skill ?
What is the correct answer ? Both ? Only extra material ?
Btw, the changes are great : things will be far easier to understand (ME10 is perfect, regardless the blueprint you take). I also like one of the idea I saw in the blog getting the "old level info" somewhere for the "collector" aspect for the "great time wasted to research"
Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.
Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).
The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Althalus Stenory wrote:Kadl wrote: Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.
Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).
The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system.
Actually, it's currently "perfect materials + waste factor skill + waste factor material" we are moving, to a "build cost system", I understood this point, but will it still use the waste factor skill (base on the skill material efficiency, previously production efficiency) or not ? If I understood well, it will still be used, and the "wastage" is just, as you said, the material wastage.
Ah yes clarity. I believe you are correct, but CCP could confirm that. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 22:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Kadl wrote:Perhaps we can settle for constructive arguments? I'd like that. Historically the nature of the argument between the two camps has been along these lines: Person A: Remove T2 BPOs because they are ruining the game! Person B: In what way are they ruining the game? Person A: By ruining it! Person B: Would you like to support that claim in some way? Do you have any figures, graphs, maybe a pie chart? Person A: Just remove them already! Person B: I see. Once you have witnessed this display a thousand times, you get to thinking that the problem is less with T2 BPOs and more with players that don't think things through.
There is certainly a reoccurring pattern. I agree with Person B that the T2 BPOs don't feel right, but don't like the hyperbole. CCP responds to the argument that things don't seem right (different copy times for T2 BPOs doesn't seem right to Greyscale). It is also obvious that the T2 BPOs are not going away immediately. That would also be unfair to those who have purchased them as a productive asset. Given these conflicting interests I think that CCP can simply not improve the T2 BPOs or nerf them slightly over time. Either way addresses the twin facts that they were a mistake and that they are part of the game.
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Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
159
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Aryth wrote:Weaselior wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Aryth wrote:After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur. Well, that let the cat out of the bag. it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale He isn't kidding. We spent hours looking at T2 bpos today. Same here. I was thinking it was too good to be true anyway. Outpost changes were bound to come along and scupper it all.
I figured this was some outpost gimmick. CCP is modifying outposts, but we don't know if they saw this issue yet.
What I find interesting is a lack of defensiveness about how this is a proper payment for the chance that all of a sudden all of their BPOs would be locked away.
Obviously CCP will need to address this as well. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
160
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Posted - 2014.04.29 20:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
In EVE time is advancement. We can go down the road of questioning people's advancement choices. For example we could question the sanity of people who invest skill points in Specialized Weapon Skills at level V. Or we can acknowledge their efforts with a small bonus and move on. It is clear that some people would prefer to eliminate the efforts that others have made and avoid compensation. We could choose to acknowledge the effort to achieve the Specialized Weapon Skills by granting it some bonus, while at the same time devaluing those skills by nerfing the weapon type.
I am sorry we are talking about industry here so lets talk about the changes to the soon to be renamed Material Efficiency. The ability to reduce costs by 25% vs the ability to reduce labor costs on many run jobs by 25% (labor cost 5% x 0.75 = 1.25% for some production). The last level gets you around 0.25% cost benefit now.
Perhaps we are talking about standings, which for an industrialist now effect the market only?
Oh the current topic is research time, another quantity limited by game time purchased. In a number of cases that time will be completely disregarded (unlike the other examples).
My suggestion is to acknowledge the investment and effort made. Just think if this was skills, or removing T2 BPOs both long term investments of time and effort. Nerfing something generates less ill will then avoiding all acknowledgement. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
160
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Posted - 2014.04.29 21:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Proton Power wrote:Question, sorry if asked already:
T2 Component BPO's. Currently they need very little research to hit "Perfect". After patch how will that work and what would be optimal now to get them to Perfect after patch?
The current plan for Antimater Reactors (small example): Current Research: ME 1 is perfect New Research: ME (or renamed equivalent) 1 is perfect
If you only need a little research rounding will make things work nicely for you again. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
160
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Posted - 2014.04.29 21:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
John Ustinov Donne wrote:Comrades,
This proposed re-education of the intellectual researching elite will better serve the needs of the Revolution.
I consider with interest the new linear scale with a base resource cost of Y, where ME 0% requires 1.00Y materials and ME 10% requires 0.90Y, such that 0.90Y = X, and X is the original (current) base cost of the materials; and observe that
a) Where a translated 'old' ME value falls between 2 ranks of new ME%, it is rounded to the most favourable (highest) ME%. For example, old ME 9 [10/(1+ME)% waste] or 1.01X amount of materials, is equivalent to 0.909Y amount of materials which is "ME 9.1%" and is rounded to ME 10%.
This efficiency has been rung from the sweat of the workers of New Eden... WHO SHALL SURELY BE LIBERATED!
and
b) All BPOs of old ME 9 and above will be at perfect efficiency. I proclaim this, a victory for the Rookies of New Eden - rise up against the reactionaries and their running dogs whose BPOs grew fat with decadence and unnecessary research and who now shamelessly seek recompense for their counter-revolutionary activities! Keep the ME scale at 10.
Yes let everyone join the revolution! Everyone above 5 million skill points should be deleted. We can then restart with fresh servers! Or are you one of those counter-revolutionaries who only want this revolution to go to the point where it helps you?
As an alternative we can acknowledge past investments (in some way) while devaluing (nerfing) them. |
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