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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7125
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 11:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7125
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 11:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Still no mention of new station bonuses - as promised like 4 blogs ago
you didn't read closely, those are in there.
Quote:For each previously-slot-improving outpost research upgrade, you'll similarly get a 0.9x multiplier to research job prices.
For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.
However, I'm fairly underwhelmed by the manufacturing slot replacement bonus. The reason is that it's exactly the same as the POS bonus: I can spend 60b on a station, or 300m on a pos. I think it's a little absurd that the absolute pinnacle of manufacturing you can aspire to, spend huge amounts of money to create, and have to defend gives you nothing better than a pos one jump from jita. And that's from a hyper-specialized factory: once you do that you've used up nearly all of your outpost upgrade slots and you've only got one tier 1 left (probably offices). I think that bonus should be increased slightly at the high end (i.e. a tier 2 or 3 upgrade should give 2%) or the bonus given to pos should be reduced somewhat.
While people will claim pos are at risk, they're not: pos assembly arrays don't drop anything from a build in progress. Entity alluded to his "20b pos" in another thread, where if it was attacked he'd lose 20b of manufacturing products. But the thing is, if I bothered to find it and kill it, I'd get none of that: the assembly arrays would act like they were empty since between the build being installed and delivered, they are. So nobody will bother attacking pos unless someone's really pissed them off: it'll be purely for griefing and not for profit.
I can't comment on the value of the research upgrade as I don't understand how research is priced, so I don't know if this is valuable or saves me several whole pennies. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7126
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 12:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
For research upgrades: do both invention and research slots get pooled (so 1x research slot upgrade 1x invention slot upgrade = .81 modifier for both types of jobs) or is it individual (1x and 1x means .9 modifier for both)? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7126
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 12:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:Taxes: NPC-owned facilities will levy a 10% tax on top of everything else. This will be at least absent in player-owned facilities, and if we have time, we will allow players to set whatever arbitrary tax rate they like on their own facilities, the proceeds of which (the tax specifically, that is) will go directly into their own (or their corporation's in most cases) coffers
Ten percent of what? Build cost, total other fees, or something else? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7126
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 12:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Weaselior wrote:I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job? The "output price" where the output is a blueprint is treated as being 2% of the value of whatever the blueprint produces. It's buried in a paragraph halfway down, that probably could've been clearer.
What about copies: is a 50-run copy equal to 100%? It seems like this makes regular research oddly cheap and copying oddly expensive in relation to one another. I'll have to poke at the formula and see what drops out for the usual sort of stuff though.
Related question: how is this formula resolving the market value of rarely sold (e.g. components) items and never sold (supercaps)? Is it using market prices or is it doing a sort of 'base cost' off the minerals? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7126
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 13:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Currently outpost owners have the ability to restrict some or all of the slots to ensure they're open for corp projects. Obviously, with no slots, that's going away, but is it being replaced by anything to "gate" who can use the factory? Can use be limited to specific corps or the like (within the alliance), or is it purely standings-based like the other things you can restrict at a station? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7127
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 13:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that. From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.
It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7127
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 13:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
As a followup to the problem with a fully upgraded amarr station that costs 60-80b (and remember this has no refine advantage over a highsec pos, maxes out at 52% since all other upgrade slots are taken) being only as good as a small highsec pos that costs 100-300m: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4526547
Transport costs are going up 50% (at least), which throws a serious wrench into a lot of the chance for nullsec to compete: imported minerals just got more expensive, importing non-local moon materials likewise, making it make even more sense to import the smaller finished products instead of the raw materials. With no cost advantage over a highsec pos sitting one jump from jita, there's nothing you can do to make up those transport costs.
Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7135
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 14:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote: It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.
Alright, cool, just wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to assume titans were worthless so all titan build jobs were free :v: Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7135
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 14:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
The T2 multiple run discount may be irritating to people as it's more money for the t2bpoholder, but it doesn't actually affect anyone else like the copy issue did. No more units get produced so it's not a problem for inventors. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7141
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 15:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Can we get current total job hours for each type of job that has the cost scaling applied to it, so we can do math about "lets say our system gets X builds, will we need a second station upgraded or is one good for now" patch planning? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7141
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 15:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Annah Gerber wrote: The problems with the PoS'es is that you aren't just looking to add tax to it, we are already running our own "mini spacestation" which has costs tied in to it to begin with, it's already 1b+ a month to fuel a large PoS,
i was just skimming through your post thinking "boy that's a lot of crazy" when this popped out at me
a large pos fuel cost is nowhere near 1b a month you clearly have no idea what you're talking about Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7141
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 15:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:As in, total global hours for each activity type?
Yeah, so we can model what sort of costs we can expect post-patch. Whatever it is at this moment is 'good enough' for that sort of modeling. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7141
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 15:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Annah Gerber wrote: To run a large Caldari PoS is 240 mil a week to run it, buying the fuel from Jita.
This is why I always dread using numbers while posting because people are just going to get hung up on that and ignore the rest of the post, so maybe it's not 1b a month, it's 960 mil a month.
caldari large pos burns 40 fuel blocks an hour, caldari fuel blocks cost 18,000 each, for an hourly cost of 720,000
there are 24*7 hours in a week, so the weekly cost is 0.72m*24*7=120m
charters (3.8k, one per hour) are a rounding error amounting to under 3m a month
whoever your fuel supplier is has been hilariously gouging you and i wish to congratulate him
Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7143
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 15:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Doogan Algaert wrote: Can you please address the material efficiency skill removal, as just this seems to mean an increase in build costs of 25% for level 5 skill which i haven't seen discussed as of yet.
nope: that "waste" was tacked on if you didn't have the skill
so there was a base price, then it was multiplied by 1.25, then the skills were applied - they're axing the skill AND the x1.25 multiplier so everyone now acts as if they have PEV Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7143
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 15:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: Counting facilities at a starbase is somewhat computationally expensive right now, as we don't keep track of which structures are associated with each control tower in the DB. The "obvious solution" (ie what you've described, and what's in the original design) requires us to do some legwork to track that properly, which as I alluded to earlier is not particularly conceptually complex but requires a reasonable amount of work that we may or may not have time to do.
Perhaps add a new DB table that stores the station bonus keyed on the id of the tower. When you gather then objects to render the tower generate a hash from the ids, compare that to the bonus table. If the bonus doesn't exist store it, if it is the same hash carry on, if the hash has changed recalculate the bonus based on the objects to render and update the table, then the new cost calculation code can just check the new table which is automatically maintained and is rarely updated (assuming POS are rarely changed once set up. Offf the top of my head so potentially crap but what the hell, I'm bored in work
solutions that start with "add a new DB table" are not the sort of simple solutions that let something get done before patch day (i assume it will be announced at fanfest but usually late may/early june) Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7144
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: Manufacturing: 10% fee for stations? If you are not doing 5 billion a month in manufacturing then you're not really an industrial corp. This is not the markup, but the total price.
nope Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7146
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Allowing the bonus to be scaled by amount of arrays in system, instead of ONLINE in system, is hilariously exploitable. I don't know if it will be worth it to exploit that by anchoring one million offline arrays, but I'd consider it. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7146
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
mkint wrote:Now it's just move to where there's lots of stations. There are no other relevant variables.
i am constantly astounded by how bad people are at figuring these changes out
the much more significant variable is how many people are there
man, you can tell how broken industry has been for ages by how bad people are at figuring out change Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7148
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 16:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Home Starrunner wrote:So to build a titan, you will first need to make a copy of the BPO.
Say the price for Titan is set at 80b
@ 2% of the finished product for copy costs, we are looking at 1.6b just to make a copy? Copying the component prints also equals around the same price, so we are looking at 1.6b in copy fees for the component prints. 2% is the "output price". You pay the same as if you were manufacturing a 1.6b ship (i.e. much less than 1.6b) Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7150
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 17:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
why are people calling for a release to be delayed when it doesn't even have a release date?
all this stuff is a Big Change so they're throwing it out there asap so you can do things like train refining skills, re-spreadsheet everything, get everything installed pre-patch that would get screwed up, that sort of thing
you should be happy as hell you're hearing it in the 90% done stage instead of the 100% it ships tomorrow stage Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7152
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 17:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Research costs scale at higher levels though, I cannot find anything in the dev blog that supports that statement. Please help me find the text that says going from ME9% to ME10% will cost more than going from ME0% to ME1%. Yes, it *takes* longer, but as best as I can tell job *duration* is not a factor on the job cost formula. MDD I think greyscale mentioned in this thread that the cost is multiplied by that same amount (about 2.38x I believe) each level, though that is not in the blog Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7153
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 17:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:ME bonus for outpost.... Did they just convert an invented ME-4 to ME 1, cutting the advantage BPOs have over invention to like 9% instead of 60%? No: this is "new ME", 5%
Old ME-4 gets converted into ME-40%, which gets brought back down to ME-35% Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7165
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 22:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:If an Outpost is captured by your enemy, you lose access to the stuff you had in that outpost. If you were clever you can still put that stuff on market or package it in contracts for sale, carriage or whatever.
If a POS is destroyed, you lose all the stuff you had in that POS. If you had 20B of materials involved in production jobs and someone blows up your POS, you lose that 20B. I'm not sure how that doesn't count as risk. Industry performed in a POS is a higher risk enterprise, thus should be more rewarding, shouldn't it? if someone captures my outpost, they got something out of it: an outpost. a very nice one, if i do say so myself
if someone blows up my pos, all they got out of it was an unpleasant few hundred man-hours and the hope that I'll say something hilarious enough to make it all worth it
there is no incentive to attack pos because there is no profit in it: they don't drop anything. as a result, short of you pissing someone off, why are they going to bother to mess with your production? They won't, nobody's idea of a good time is bashing dickstars.
That said, my issue with POS bonuses have been resolved, so it's sort of a moot point. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7165
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 23:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: If someone blows up your POS, they get to loot the things that do drop stuff. Your understanding of POSes is poor. CHAs & labs (have a chance to) drop whatever what inside when they are exploded, and you can always unanchor the modules to sell them for profit. So there is plenty of motivation to shoot a POS.
wrong
they have a chance to drop whatever is sitting inside them at the time but not anything that is in build: that stuff is effectively not there. there is no motivation to attack an industrial pos, which has its things in build
the modules are basically worthless, only labs are worth anything at all Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7179
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 14:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Yes, online/offline shenanigans is something we need to think about.
calculate once at downtime, use that value for the next day Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7192
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 16:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fuzzy Monkei wrote: Yes You could online/offline a load of labs or assembly arrays for down time to determine the bonuses for tomorrow. This sounds like an interesting useful and valid game play mechanic. What was invalid was online/offline many times durring the day so that you got the online bonus to both manufacturing and research. With the once per day calc at down time you need to choose where the bonus is, not shift it around durring the day.
yeah, this is basically what i was thinking: you can only shift once per day, so you're stuck with that choice for the day. under any system you can offline all the arrays after you've installed your jobs cause cost is set on install. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7199
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 20:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Weaselior wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:As in, total global hours for each activity type?
Yeah, so we can model what sort of costs we can expect post-patch. Whatever it is at this moment is 'good enough' for that sort of modeling. I've got the OK to release those numbers but the guy who has the data has gone home for the day (I only have percentages in my working sheet). I'll try and post them up tomorrow morning. Did these get posted? I didn't see them. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7200
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 21:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alyxportur wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:Alyxportur wrote:Does this mean that if CCP permits nullsec to put more than one outpost in a system (capped at the number of planets in a system), the cost modifers for two+ outposts in the same system would be the same? One, that's a big "if". One that would probably involve null sec sovereignty rule changes, which are surely a ways off. Two, because of #1 (above), nobody knows the answer. MDD It's not much bigger than being able to anchor POSes without standings in any highsec system. I've never read anything in the EVE lore explaining why nullsec capsuleers limit our empires to one station per system. It must be because we're poor. it's because outposts were hacked in and presumably the code is atrocious, and it's just not technically possible without redoing the old code Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7358
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 15:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Has any additional thought been put to a bonus for multiple starbase arrays? the issue is not one of thought, but what can be done with the god-awful pos code Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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