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fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
   |
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have a question .....
With all the changes and tweaks going on has there been any attempt of addressing the existance of T2 BPOs?
I have seen multiple posts on this but no DEV blogs or replies.
It would be nice if this was addressed so we could have a real market based on supply and demand. Instead we have artifically deflated markets for any item that has a T2 bpo thats actively used.
It's discouraging when you go to invent something and discover that its selling for cheaper than the cost of the data cores required to even attempt invention.
Its even worse than that because even if you take your time and do the math to calulate what is profitable. After spending time training and resources producing T2 items someone can start production with a long idle T2 BPO and undercut you easily. (This could happen if someone activates and dormant account - buys the bpo from someone whos not been using it or just decides to dust off that bpo thats been collecting dust in thier hanger.)
I don't care about the lottery or how things got the way they are --- My problem with what is happening here and now.
The only point people ever make against this is "go buy a bpo" but my point is not about an individual -- its about the system itself. The BPOs affect the way the market works far beyond the people that own them. It would be the equivalent of having a special set of T1 bpos that didn't require tritanium while everyone that didnt own one was stuck with higher production costs.
If CCP does not want to change the current situation can a list of the which items have a T2 BPOs be released so we know what items to ignore when inventing and training invention skills.
Any sort of DEV relpy would be nice. Even if its just to say that CCP likes the current system. |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
38
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Posted - 2011.11.15 18:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Posting in a T2 BPOs are bad thread! |
Velicitia
Open Designs
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
T2 BPOs are not an "IWIN" button for BPO holders.
Do the maths, you'll see that the (seriously) limited number of BPO for a particular item don't allow for enough things to be made to satiate market demand (on a majority of items, there are outliers that are either simply under-utilised because Meta 4 Items are better) |
Gatan Hahran
Brukterer
DUCT TAPE UNION
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
What about T1 BPO?
People sell the ships below the mineral cost, you know why they do that?
Because they are stupid and apply "What i mine is for free"Gäó logic.
CCP needs to remove T1 BPO. |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys about the T2 bpo's, but I know one thing.
Imagine you have a T2 BPO, whether or not you won it in a lottery, was left it as a player quit, or paid for it with good old isk.
How pissed off will you be if they then take it away, since they're not a seeded item, who decides what it's worth to compensate what could well have been a multi-billion isk purchase?
As with life, there will always be someone out there with better and brighter tools than you, it's up to you how you deal with that competition. If you can't compete on price for 1 thing, try inventing and selling something else.
|
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yes T2 BPO's suck. However if you do the math and research for as little as 5 minutes you will get an idea if someone is using a T2 BPO to make an item and then know to avoid that market or not to invest to heavily into it.
Asking for them to be removed or making T2 BPO's available to the public is just stupidity. It's like winning several million dollars on the lottery, then 5 years later after you have spent it all the lottery owners want it all back. It's just not going to happen, even though it would be nice to have access to a very remote chance of getting one.
Not having done alot of research into T2 items (just what I dabble in myself) people that have the T2 BPO's want to make as much profit as they can, just like you and me, and most of the time WANT the markets to be above invention cost because it means their product has even more profit margins. However there would be a few items with very high volume but at invention cost or lower that thye are happy to make less profit per item, due to the shear amount they sell in a given time making it worth while to 'kill' the market for inventors. |
Daddy's Princess
The Player Haters Corp
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
I bet the OP is one of those dumbasses that's actually looking at an item(s) which don't have a BPO and is mad about bpo owners. 
Those damn Hic BPO owners. Not fair  |
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Great so far we have -
Princess saying I must be stupid and therefore I must be wrong because im stupid (google "ad hominem fallacy")
Alisarina saying that t2 bpos suck but arguing because its been broken SO long that it should contiue to be broken. (by that logic CCP should never fix or improve anything unless it was released in the last month)
Emma is worried about how much she will get back for the stockpile of T2 bpos shes hoarding (how about paying the purchase price back to each owner)
Gatan says people are stupid anyway (This is actually support for my position becuase not only do t2 producers have to deal with the stupids they also have to deal with the ones that blueprints that dont require all the same materials) [Would you support CCP randomly handing out a special BPO of each T1 ship and module with the tritanuim and megacyte requirements removed from the bpos then telling everyone else to just "deal with it"???]
Lutz -- i think you meant to put a L where that T is 
and no Dev response yet  |
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 02:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Do the math. Even with the failure rate almost every item that is not a ship and hasa T2 BPO is more profitable to invent and build than items without a T2 BPO.
As for ships, well there are decryptors which make a lot of ships very profitable to invent and build even with the huge ME penalty. Now if it's a ship that sells like 2 a day in Jita then even the T2 BPO owner isn't making any profit on it.
At least the OP gets bonus points for having a really catchy stupid name.
|
Orlacc
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 02:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
OP is special and Devs should answer him now!
What is OP's suggestion to fix this unjust situation? |
Servitor 001
Rules of Acquisition
Acquisition Of Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.11.16 05:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Can you provide any numbers to back up the assumption that it's cheaper to manufacture off a T2 BPO? Just asking because after perusing a few of these threads I have'nt seen any yet and a lot of people seem to just take it as being fact.
cheers |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 05:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:Emma is worried about how much she will get back for the stockpile of T2 bpos shes hoarding (how about paying the purchase price back to each owner)
LOL I wish, I've not got any T2 BPO's, but how can you say what the purchase price was for compensation if you won it on the lottery, then although it didn't cost you anything, it still has a current value, and market fluctuations means that just about everything you purchase has a variable resale price.
ie - you buy a run of the mill new car and you sell it 3 years later, the price will have gone down due to depreciation etc.
you buy a work of art, and sell it 3 years later, and it's anybody's guess as to what the value is, could be higher, could be lower.
I figure that most of these T2 BPO whine threads are born of jealousy, personally I couldn't care less if someone's got a T2 BPO or not, nor how they got it. If they can rake in Billions a day then so what? a fat wallet isn't everything in life. |
Arushia
Nova Labs
New Eden Research.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 07:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:
It's discouraging when you go to invent something and discover that its selling for cheaper than the cost of the data cores required to even attempt invention.
And then you realize it's an item that doesn't have a T2 BPO, because some numbskull inventor didn't do the math.
Tired of lab queues in high-sec? Check out New Eden Research. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
Black Thorne Alliance
51
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 10:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:With all the changes and tweaks going on has there been any attempt of addressing the existance of T2 BPOs?
You may not notice it, but in fact it is being addressed. T2 BPOs seem to be staying exactly as they are.
fido gotran over wrote:It would be nice if this was addressed so we could have a real market based on supply and demand. Instead we have artifically deflated markets for any item that has a T2 bpo thats actively used.
We do have a market based on supply and demand, and that includes supply and demand of T2 BPOs.
Asking for action with regards to T2 BPOs without really explaining what the issue is doesn't help much.
fido gotran over wrote:The BPOs affect the way the market works far beyond the people that own them.
I would really be interesting in seeing a situation where this has actually been the case. I know many people involved in T2 production and invention who throw their arms up in the air and claim it's all due to the T2 BPOs without looking at the real issues in their markets. Furthermore - so what? I would say Technium moons affect the way the market works far FAR beyond the people who own them. This in itself is not a bad thing.
And just for the record:
1) I do not hold, nor have ever held, T2 BPOs.
2) I am an active inventor and producer of T2 modules and ships. As such I know that my real competitors are other T2 inventors, very rarely if ever have I seen T2 BPO holders as driving force within the T2 market. |
RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
138
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 11:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
I have T2 Bpo, I also invent the same item - I make more money from he inventions than the t2 bpo - can I get a cookie
http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png
|
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Industries
8
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Posted - 2011.11.16 13:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
some items even with a t2 bpo sell below build costs.. you may ask why? well the reason is people are stupid. the minerials/pi/moon mins i mine are free lot. you cant get away from it.
i invent 1000's of times a month, i can tell you for a fact that invention of some items is highly profitible(yes there are t2 bpo's for these items). the market has cycles in price, watch the waves in the market and ride them if you can.
t2 bpos are not the problem/issue. lack of research is the problem. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1616
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
anyone who owns a t2 bpo or cares they exist is a moron |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:With all the changes and tweaks going on has there been any attempt of addressing the existance of T2 BPOs?
They exist.
They've existed for a long time.
CCP admitted that the lottery was one of their biggest mistakes.
No more will be seeded.
Removing them will hurt Eve more than help it.
You can get one the same way most BPO owners got theirs.
The handful of players that got theirs in the lottery could (Should?) have sold a LONG time ago and made far more trading with their windfall. |
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Breaker77 and Servitor 001 are saying thatt T2 BPOs cost more to manufacture with than invetion --
All invetion has a -4 ME (unless you use the decryptors which add millions to the cost and can even make the ME worse)
Then you have to add the cost of copying
Then you have to add the cost of the data cores
Then you have to add the rate of failure
T2 BPOs can be researched so they use less materials and they dont require all the incidental costs of invention.
I'll give one example and tell me if I'm missing something.
T2 Veldspar minig crystals
Invetion takes -
Laser Physics datacore - 2 - Buy price in Amarr 185,000 apiece
Electronics engineering datacore 2 - Buy price in Amarr 210,000 apiece
For a total of 790,000 per attempt
The T2 veld crystals are selling for 60,000 apiece
Thats 600,000 for a 10 run copy
Now ignoring the cost of
Running the invention
The time spent copying
The cost of materials TO ACTUALLY BUILD IT
And the rate of failure wich would require MORE datacores
You begin with a 190,000 isk LOSS per 10 run print to even TRY to invent
With a 50% failure rate thats 380,000 LOSS before you add the 220,000+ cost for everything else
T2 BPO not even researched takes (THESE ARE SELL PRICES rounded up just for worst case profit on BPO)
28 Nocxium -- (482*28) 13496
1 hypersyanptic fiber -- 5000
1 veldspar crystal -- 15,000
and 1.5% of a R.A.M. Elec -- (45000*0.015) 675
for a total cost of 34171 isk per unit
60000 - 34171 = 25829 profit per unit
and profit would only go up if the person set buy orders and build thier own t1 crystals
So for 10 units like above there is a minimum of 258290 profit for ten units with a T2 BPO
And for Invention its a 600,000+ loss
THIS is why I want a DEV comment on this.
I don't know who is producing these crystals so I cannot say that it MUST be T2 BPOs.
MAYBE people are REALLY this stupid
MAYBE T2 BPOs are not being used to kill this market
MAYBE T2 BPOs dont have any affect on any items in the game and everything is fine.
OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.
AS far as Ideas for solutions there are many ways to address it
1) Add datacores as a cost (relative to how many datacores it takes per unit with lvl5 skills) to T2 bpos and make them all -4 ME -- They would still have the benefit of unlimited runs and no invention steps to deal with.
2) Remove them from the game and pay the owners the isk values that they paid for them.
3) Remove them from the game and pay the owners some multiple of what the items cost on market or an approxamation of what they would sell for on contrats relative to past sales.
4) combine 2 and 3 and pay the higher value |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.
The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO.
Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today.
|
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
VaMei wrote:fido gotran over wrote:OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone. The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO. Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today.
Satire --- I hope |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
70
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:VaMei wrote:fido gotran over wrote:OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone. The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO. Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today. Satire --- I hope
Not one bit.
I was part of an industrial alliance during and shortly after the lottery. Those BPOs were not something that individual players bought for their own personal use. They were corp assets paid for with corp funds, and their profits funded the corperation's expansion.
Today, you can get them for prices that individual players can actually pay (granted, reasonably wealthy players).
Earlier today, there were 15 T2 BPOs on the 1st 4 pages of the WTS forum, and not trash ones either. |
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
VaMei wrote:fido gotran over wrote:VaMei wrote:fido gotran over wrote:OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone. The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO. Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today. Satire --- I hope Not one bit. I was part of an industrial alliance during and shortly after the lottery. Those BPOs were not something that individual players bought for their own personal use. They were corp assets paid for with corp funds, and their profits funded the corperation's expansion. Today, you can get them for prices that individual players can actually pay (granted, reasonably wealthy players). Earlier today, there were 15 T2 BPOs on the 1st 4 pages of the WTS forum, and not trash ones either.
You completey miss the point. I am saying that the BPOs cannot co-exist with invention.
Its the equivalent of having a bunch T1 bpos out there without the Tritanium requirements. The people that have them would have a special advantage. I'm not saying that they MUST get rid of the BPOs I am saying that the current system is fundametally flawed.
They could fix it like I mentioned before OR Maybe they should just seed T2 BPOs on the market and get rid of invention completey.
I REALLY don't care HOW they fix it as long as it levels the playing field for everyone. |
Gizan
Hounds Of War
Bloodbound.
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
heres an expample, there is atleast 1 manticore bpo out there producing manticores. I can invent manticores, and sell them in jita for 1-4mil profit each AFTER INVENTING THEM! just cuz theres a t2 bpo doesnt mean the bpo is controling the market... |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
70
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:Its the equivalent of having a bunch T1 bpos out there without the Tritanium requirements.
It would be that way only if those T1 BPOs without the trit reqs cost ten or a hundred thousand times what it cost to simply use the normal BPOs.
The Light Neutron Blaster II auction running right now is at 10b isk. I could toss my bid on that auction, or I can keep paying ~4,500isk/run to invent them. Considering that the market prices for that module are currently 120% over my cost after invention, I'll keep inventing.
|
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gizan wrote:heres an expample, there is atleast 1 manticore bpo out there producing manticores. I can invent manticores, and sell them in jita for 1-4mil profit each AFTER INVENTING THEM! just cuz theres a t2 bpo doesnt mean the bpo is controling the market...
I am not arguing that ALL T2 BPOs are killing every market. But there are some to where it clearly looks like it. The cheaper items that lower skilled people would build first would be more heavily affected especially because the cost of the invention would greatly affect the per item cost. I have given one clear example.
I have specifically asked for a DEV post on this because they have access to the data that can show how much the T2 BPOs are REALLY affecting the market. |
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
VaMei wrote:fido gotran over wrote:Its the equivalent of having a bunch T1 bpos out there without the Tritanium requirements. It would be that way only if those T1 BPOs without the trit reqs cost ten or a hundred thousand times what it cost to simply use the normal BPOs. The Light Neutron Blaster II auction running right now is at 10b isk. I could toss my bid on that auction, or I can keep paying ~4,500isk/run to invent them. Considering that the market prices for that module are currently 120% over my cost after invention, I'll keep inventing.
Yes they would cost a lot just like the T2 bpos do so its a good example.
You are giving an specific example of where you are making good profit but my argument is about the system as a whole.
Don't you get a 10 run copy from inventing them?
If you get a 10 run copy how is invention costing you 45,000?
Even with buy prices the cores cost over 340,000 and thats for ONE attempt.
With 50% failure rate thats ~680,000 plus the cost of the invention slot. (if you have lvl5 skills this will lower the cost a little bit)
So how much profit per item are you really getting??? |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
70
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
70
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:Don't you get a 10 run copy from inventing them?
If you get a 10 run copy how is invention costing you 45,000?
You got me there. It is 45,000 per run not 4,500.
|
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
The 3% is jobs but the orginals can run large numbers of runs per installed job
If you look at the next page it says that ONE THIRD of all T2 items were built from ORIGINAL blueprints.
"Tech II BPOs can be used to install a manufacturing job with an unlimited number of production
runs provided that the job completes within 30 days being installed. On the other hand, a Tech
II BPC has a limited amount of runs and will be consumed once all the runs are used up. There
are much fewer BPO jobs installed than BPC jobs even though BPO jobs account for one third
of all Tech II items produced (excluding drones and ammo)." |
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