Emma is worried about how much she will get back for the stockpile of T2 bpos shes hoarding (how about paying the purchase price back to each owner)

It's discouraging when you go to invent something and discover that its selling for cheaper than the cost of the data cores required to even attempt invention.

With all the changes and tweaks going on has there been any attempt of addressing the existance of T2 BPOs?

It would be nice if this was addressed so we could have a real market based on supply and demand. Instead we have artifically deflated markets for any item that has a T2 bpo thats actively used.

The BPOs affect the way the market works far beyond the people that own them.

With all the changes and tweaks going on has there been any attempt of addressing the existance of T2 BPOs?

OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.

The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO.
Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today.

Satire --- I hope

Not one bit.

I was part of an industrial alliance during and shortly after the lottery. Those BPOs were not something that individual players bought for their own personal use. They were corp assets paid for with corp funds, and their profits funded the corperation's expansion.

Today, you can get them for prices that individual players can actually pay (granted, reasonably wealthy players).
Earlier today, there were 15 T2 BPOs on the 1st 4 pages of the WTS forum, and not trash ones either.

Its the equivalent of having a bunch T1 bpos out there without the Tritanium requirements.

heres an expample, there is atleast 1 manticore bpo out there producing manticores. I can invent manticores, and sell them in jita for 1-4mil profit each AFTER INVENTING THEM! just cuz theres a t2 bpo doesnt mean the bpo is controling the market...

It would be that way only if those T1 BPOs without the trit reqs cost ten or a hundred thousand times what it cost to simply use the normal BPOs.

The Light Neutron Blaster II auction running right now is at 10b isk. I could toss my bid on that auction, or I can keep paying ~4,500isk/run to invent them. Considering that the market prices for that module are currently 120% over my cost after invention, I'll keep inventing.

Don't you get a 10 run copy from inventing them?
If you get a 10 run copy how is invention costing you 45,000?

If you're looking for production rates, QEN Q2 2009 is what you're looking for.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=686

The TLDR is that 97% of completed T2 builds were from BPCs.

You got me there. It is 45,000 per run not 4,500.

I was asking how u got 45,000 invention cost per print when just the datacores costs ~680,000 per blueprint at 50% success rate.

During Q2 2009, the average number of Tech II production jobs completed daily was 11,788..
Out of this average, 374 jobs were installed with a Tech II BPO, while the remaining 11,414 jobs
were installed with BPCs. The distribution of Tech II production jobs installed had 3% installed
with a BPO and 97% installed with a BPC, as can be seen in the figure below.

If we say that the production cost via invention for a ship is 150m isk, and a bpo holder can build it for 100m. Exactly why would the bpo holder, whose single print in most cases can't even cover the market demand of a single day, try to sell for 145m to ruin the inventor's day, instead of seliing for 180m like they are?

Since a single bpo can only run a single production line, there is no way to increase profit by increasing output via parallel builds. So why would one voluntarily give up half the profit?

This include Ship, Module and Ammo. The exert you read about 1/3 of T2 being produced from BPO were after you EXCLUDE Ammo.

Regardless, you want to seed T2 BPO and completely **** over those players who took the time to train invention skills and acquire blueprint and manufacturing line to build t2 items? This is why you're an idiot, you want to introduce a solution that benefits you and screw over more player because YOU feel that you're not making as much isk.

CCP PLEASE REPLY TO ME NOW! I PAY FOR THIS GAME AND THEREFORE I AM ENTITLED TO A REPLY ABOUT A GAME MECHANIC I DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND BUT DISLIKE BECAUSE I AM MENTALLY HANDICAPPED.

This is about all I can seem to glean from your posts OP

You keep missing the part where BPO production is not scable compared to invention...

T2 Veldspar minig crystals

i smell troll

T2 BPO's should be re-seeded but not like T1 BPO's.

Don't ask me how, they just should.

Through missions, through whatever.

It would definitely allow people to reach full potential faster and EVE wouldn't remain the timesink it is when it comes to farming isk.

It would allow people to have more fun in the long run.

Also 56% of T2 ships were built with BPOs

"During Q2 2009, approximately 350,000
Tech II ships were manufactured by 6,920
different characters. 56% of these ships
were produced with BPOs, and the remaining
44% were manufactured with BPCs,"

am i missing something here, or are you getign worked up over T2 BPO's using a two year old QEN as 'proof' ?

EVE can be harsh or unfair at times, if you think a T2 BPO is better, go bloody buy one, stop complaining that you never had the chance to get one in the lotteries.

basically, HTFU

Eve is a small game with not many players. Only a few have BPOs and most of them are entitled to come on to these threads and attack any players which threaten their BPOs.

CCP should take out T2 BPOs as a whole. Relax; it's only a game right? It'll make things fair for the invention newbies and you'll get by on fine while not having a T2 original blueprint I'm sure.

The T2 BPOs greatest effect is putting downward pressure on products they produce, no different then cheap labor in China.

Here is an example:

You can manufacture a hair dryer for $2.00 in China and sell it for $20 bucks locally (x10 margin). This is analogous to holding a T2 BPO max researched.

You can manufacture a hair dryer for $9.00 locally and sell it for $90 bucks (x10 margin). This is analogous to invention lets say based on the arguements.

Now imagine you can only create 50 hair dryers in China and 300 locally.

IF we only has the 50, supply and demand would raise prices as people complete for the 50 hair dryers.
However no one wants to buy $90 dollar hair dryers either. The T2 BPO forces the price of the locally owned hair dryers down to say $40. What happens when the 50 cheap hair dryers are consumed?

Several Things Can Happen (STCH)

1)No one buys the $40 hair dryer and wait for more $20 hair dryers. (Often the case)
2)They lower the price to $20 and get virtually no margin, however can provide more of them (so volume makes up the difference in profitability)
3)The price of the $20 hair dryer from China increases and the $40 decreases until a parity is achieved. The problem is this increases the margin of the China manufacturer who can buy out more raw material to make said hair dryer forcing the local competition to either pay more for material (and driving up their cost to manufacture even more) until they are out of business because they can manfacture with a profit. (This is the OP's gripe it seems, but since minerals are near infinite).

There is an economic imbalance that has created massive Cost of Entry barriers to established industries and key goods. Because of the imbalance inflation is barely under control and key markets have been cornered. While in real life we have groups like the SEC, WTO, Reserve Banks, and a lot of real world regulation, Eve has virtually none in the form of regulation so many, if not all of you spouting on how things work "in Real Life" in real life there would be a massive amount of regulation controlling just about everything going on in the market. There are no export controls, tarrifs, environment regulation, import\export agreements, transportation costs in the form of fuel, etc. All we have is a weak tax system that in context doesn't make any sense except as a sink. So no, Eve doesn't operate like the 'real world'. If you think that you need to take a few more credits worth beyond high school macro and micro economics.

Now is the OP right? Depends on how 'real' you want Eve to be. If Eve was real, the BPOs would be irrelevant because the raw material would be in such tight in supply the 1% that have the BPOs wouldn't be able to complete with the bulk of players for mineral demands. A 1%'er might bid 100,000,000,000,000 trit at 3.00 for a bulk order but there is just that much demand split between thousands of others that would pay 3.10. However, since minerals are nearly unlimited in Eve tempered only by the time and effort a player, put in to mining, that scenario doesn't work. We are luck enough though that how the manufacturing system works in Eve, it compensates (poor imho) for that missing component of the economy. The problem is Eve is almost whimsically vulnerable (due to no regulation) to just about every economic exploit possible lending Eve to what Anti-Trust regulations were created for. Eve is a larger Corporate Trust simulator. So everyone proclaiming how "Eve is Real", so do you want CCP to kick in the Anti-Trust regulations now or after the up-coming expansion? Yeah... thought so... back to a game now...

The more power you give the 1% the more capable they are of controlling the market indefinitely, which is how real life works. Question is can people playing a game stomach that in a game too?

From a game play standpoint does it make sense to keep the T2 BPOs in the game now that we have invention? No, it doesn't. T2 BPO lottery was a bad idea to begin with.

Does it need to be removed? No 'need' isn't the operative word. Should? Yes.

Is there a fair way to do that? No, there isn't. Period. Nothing will be FAIR in context to the T2 BPOs. Fixing will **** off alliances and people profiting off them. Not fixing them discourages new players from getting involved in manufacturing when they realize, as has been shown, the disproportionate costs between invention and T2 BPOs. The Power of Scale is irrelevant since there is no immediate need in a game, everything in a game is want remember? Yes we are back to Game vs Real Life.

But to play advocate to those "Eve is Real" types I offer this solution to CCP: "In real life we would just eminent domain the BPOs in question and provide them a compensation package decided by CCP."

I mean as easy as the Pro-BPO crowd say invention is then the BPOs going away should be a minor issue correct? I mean if BPOs don't impact the market then getting rid of them with a one time cash compensation should be good for Eve's economy. After all that whole Power of Scale thing should keep things moving along just fine.

Now you may all go back to insulting one another and reinforcing every stereotype of MMO players. Try having discussions people with one another without acting like you are in junior high bitching about who was a better guitarist, Eddie Van Halen or Yngwie Malmsteen.

Lets take a vagabond bpo.... you make ONE ship of that bpo per day.... the real hubs where 10s are traded daily. Do you really think, that 1 BPO makes a single drop of difference? .

Think a little beyond "If I had a t2 BPO I would be making mad isks.... just like everyone else". No you would not, you would make as much as you can with a damn dominix bpo if t2 bpos hit the market.

I don't care any more if these precious innocent noobs get offended any more. It's just the same old clueless drivel over and over.

It's been said over and over, invent and STFU.

The t2 BPOs are not downward pressuring ****. Seriously. Lets take a vagabond bpo. Yeah, pretty sweet to have one right? Well, you make ONE ship of that bpo per day. One! 3rd rate backup trading hubs turn over several of these per day. Let's not even get started with the real hubs where 10s are traded daily. Do you really think, that 1 BPO makes a single drop of difference? Really? But but omg there is more of these bpos spamming the market omgz! STFU, so what if there's 30? Still makes no difference.

Only ships that are not profitable to invent are the ones no one flies like the frigging rook. There is not one module on the market that isn't profitable to invent, GRANTED that it's actually usefull for something. If you insist on inventing some ******** crap that doesn't sell it's not the t2 BPO owners fault.

Oh and I've seen it many times when people whine they're looking at something that doesn't even have a bpo, thinking the bpo owners are holding them down. Examples, Hics, t2 battleships, jump freighters. Yeah that's right. There is no mystical Golem bpo. How awesome are those markets doing btw? No bpo owners to screw you over there, only smarter players.

Think a little beyond "If I had a t2 BPO I would be making mad isks.... just like everyone else". No you would not, you would make as much as you can with a damn dominix bpo if t2 bpos hit the market.

I don't care any more if these precious innocent noobs get offended any more. It's just the same old clueless drivel over and over.

It's been said over and over, invent and STFU.

If how to obtain the blueprint you feel is devaluing you effort/ISK is irrelevant for your "problem" then it is not much different to the devaluation you will experience when new ships are introduced and/or balanced.

I see what your saying, but thats different because the nerf or boost or rebalancing changes for ALL copies of that ship. So everyone is still playing on the same field with the same pieces. The devaluation is not from the item changing value its from the system being unbalanced.

If CCP announced today that they were going to give out 5 of each T1 BPO to players.
Also that these BPOs would have 10-90% reduced mineral costs.
The only way they would be removed is through being destroyed as an item.

Anyone without these new BPOs would just have to
try to compete with people that could profitably undercut even normal production costs
find items that were not completely devalued to produce
or beg borrow and steal to get one

Would ANYONE that is currently an industralist say that this is a good idea?

Lets do the polarity change test on your "if you think T2 BPO is better"

If you really did not think that T2 BPO is better, which is what you are implying, you could choose to *not care*. It can hardly be negatively impacting you that some do think so, if you dont. They would then, to you, represent a business opportunity, placing high value on something you do not think has high value.
Or you could care and be a lot more constructive about it, instead of sounding very butthurt that someone is, again, drawing attention to this embarassing subject.

Anyone who defends the status quo in this clearly has something at stake.
Holders
Connection/dependency on holders.
Devs/CCPers.

Same old story every time. I don't know who got sacked recently, but ccp'ers are people too and some have in the past caused CCP to look too proud and outright corrupt. Its not all hello kitty and my little pony and you would do well to remember that.

Breaker77 and Servitor 001 are saying thatt T2 BPOs cost more to manufacture with than invetion --

All invetion has a -4 ME (unless you use the decryptors which add millions to the cost and can even make the ME worse)
Then you have to add the cost of copying
Then you have to add the cost of the data cores
Then you have to add the rate of failure

T2 BPOs can be researched so they use less materials and they dont require all the incidental costs of invention.

---

I'll give one example and tell me if I'm missing something.

T2 Veldspar minig crystals
Invetion takes -
Laser Physics datacore - 2 - Buy price in Amarr 185,000 apiece
Electronics engineering datacore 2 - Buy price in Amarr 210,000 apiece
For a total of 790,000 per attempt

The T2 veld crystals are selling for 60,000 apiece
Thats 600,000 for a 10 run copy

Now ignoring the cost of
Running the invention
The time spent copying
The cost of materials TO ACTUALLY BUILD IT
And the rate of failure wich would require MORE datacores

You begin with a 190,000 isk LOSS per 10 run print to even TRY to invent
With a 50% failure rate thats 380,000 LOSS before you add the 220,000+ cost for everything else

T2 BPO not even researched takes (THESE ARE SELL PRICES rounded up just for worst case profit on BPO)
28 Nocxium -- (482*28) 13496
1 hypersyanptic fiber -- 5000
1 veldspar crystal -- 15,000
and 1.5% of a R.A.M. Elec -- (45000*0.015) 675

for a total cost of 34171 isk per unit
60000 - 34171 = 25829 profit per unit
and profit would only go up if the person set buy orders and build thier own t1 crystals

So for 10 units like above there is a minimum of 258290 profit for ten units with a T2 BPO
And for Invention its a 600,000+ loss

THIS is why I want a DEV comment on this.
I don't know who is producing these crystals so I cannot say that it MUST be T2 BPOs.
MAYBE people are REALLY this stupid
MAYBE T2 BPOs are not being used to kill this market
MAYBE T2 BPOs dont have any affect on any items in the game and everything is fine.

OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.

---

AS far as Ideas for solutions there are many ways to address it

1) Add datacores as a cost (relative to how many datacores it takes per unit with lvl5 skills) to T2 bpos and make them all -4 ME -- They would still have the benefit of unlimited runs and no invention steps to deal with.

2) Remove them from the game and pay the owners the isk values that they paid for them.

3) Remove them from the game and pay the owners some multiple of what the items cost on market or an approxamation of what they would sell for on contrats relative to past sales.

4) combine 2 and 3 and pay the higher value

The bpo's that are 'killing the market' are bpo's for items that no one wants.

Those items ONLY sell in volumes a bpo's can produce. so a bpo owners can meet the demand and because of high pe, they can always beat the inventors al long as the item remains low demanded.

However, since the market is huge -- MUCH larger than the amount of BPO's - these rare items are irrelevant. For any item that has market volume exceeding BPO production rate, invention is more profitable, since you can invent and build unlimited amounts at the same time, while with bpo you can only have as much manufacturing jobs as you have bpo's at the same time.

In other words - if a BPO is controlling an item supply, then this item is useless junk. who cares about useless junks?

If there were no BPO for junk items, the profit for those items would be exactly 0 anyway since any raise in price would cause overproduction and immediate price plummeting. No sane inventor would bother with such items since before production you check market history and realise that any sensible volumes you produce would flood the market so you won't be able sell it.

And no you don't have to invent and build something to find out the item you built can't return the initial investment. You know, there are such things as data dumps and market research BEFORE you even begin to invent or buy materials for the batch.

You keep missing the part where BPO production is not scable compared to invention...

Are you trying to say that thousands of hulk invention jobs per day make more profit than the extremely limited number of Hulk BPOs? Of course you are!!

It's a clear case of Economies of Scale.

A T2 BPO can only make X number of items per day.

An inventor can invent and build as many items as they have slots and time for*.

Is it better to make 5 million ISK profit per item but only make 10 items per day (50 mil profit) or 1 million ISK per item but build 100 items (100 mi profit)?

That is why T2 BPOs are so overrated. They can only produce X number of items per day while with invention an almost unlimited number of items can be produced.


*note - people who own T2 BPOs can also invent as well, most of which do so.

I love how idiots assume anyone against T2 BPO changes must own a BPO.

I don't own one. I never have. I have never invented something. I did some T3 production when whs first came out because it was lucrative as hell.

.. three posts about copying T2 BPOs and one about Antimatter Charge L (a T1BPO!) ...

...

what I can not make copies my my T2 BPO?
make 5 1500 run T2 BPC (lets say Hammerhead II)
Look the invertion and production of just ONE hamerhead is just under 920K isk
do the F-in math
and yes I will sell you 1500 Hammerhead II today at a special cost to you on only 920,001isk per unit

Are you mentally impaired?

Well, maybe you should take a look at the copy time of T2 BPO. For your example of Hammerhead II it will take longer time to make a copy at a POS lab than it takes to build a Hammerhead II (think the same is valied for most/all T2 BPO). So by doing copies you will lower your production, not increase it!.

Even, with a T2 Hammerhead II BPO you will not be able to make 1500 copies, max is 100.

And about cost of Hammerhead II, they sell at jita for 540k p/u at the moment. And if you know your math you should know an inventer will make profit at that price level!

So what are you trying to say?

lots of stuff.

Ever looked and a Hulk BPO?????
you can make copies with 10 runs each........
so go ahead invent use the invertion process to make a 100 Hulk
I will just run off 100 10 run BPC from my BPO
and mine BPC with be ME zero (like I'm not going to research it)

Ever looked and a Hulk BPO?????
you can make copies with 10 runs each........
so go ahead invent use the invertion process to make a 100 Hulk
I will just run off 100 10 run BPC from my BPO
and mine BPC with be ME zero (like I'm not going to research it)

say it all...

I too do not own a T2 BPO, but I have done Invention and I can tell you it's cheaper to buy most of the items from the open maket Most of the time......yes I too can find items that you can make isk at with invention

(see posts regarding Hanmmerhead II)

the buy order for the datacore need to do the invention are 680,000isk

or

do you get then free?????

No I donGÇÖt get them for free, I assume the Jita sell order prices which I hope you can accept as a fair one.

Since my math apparently must be much weaker than yours, please enlight me of whats the big error below are:

Jita sell order price_
Datacore - Electronic Engineering -> 210K each
Datacore - Mechanical Engineering -> 225K each

You need 2 of each so total data core cost per attempt is 870k (higher than your buy order value)
The success rate is 48%, so the cost for a successful (you get a 10-run copy) invention are 1812k.
This means that the invention cost for one Hammerhead II is 182k.

Now buy the remaining material (from Jita sell order) you need for one hammerhead and add the costs, and it will be under 540k.