I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.

OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:

The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.

The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?

There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?


I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.

The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.

So are you going to remove public CHAOS dump access?

CCPFoxFour,

Let me just clarify a few things as to why us WH pvp entities have a problem with this.

Most of the time, when we've had our static open for a while, we end up with quite a "chain" (basically a long line of WHs connected to each other) that is somewhat difficult to constantly monitor. While this nerf would make that an issue, that isn't our main problem.

The problem we have is, at present, carebearing in wspace is far too safe/secure. Right now, it's almost impossible to actually catch carebears by rolling into their system. The second you initiate warp to your side of the WH, a new anom pops up on their (slightly overpowered auto dscan tool). This alerts them that it's time to leave the site. All capitals immediately cancel whatever siege or triage they're involved in, and promptly refit to stabs to warp back to the "safety" of their POS.

Unless you happen to roll into someone who just started their siege cycle, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to land tackle. When we go to jump into a WH, we DON'T know if anyone is in there, we DON'T know if the residents are even running sites (should they exist), and we DON'T know where they are even if they do happen to be running sites.

I understand that you have a problem with us having real-time info, or that our internally developed tools are too powerful, and perhaps that does give us a slight advantage. The problem we have is that is our ONLY advantage at present.

The only truly consistent way of being able to kill competent WH bearing groups is through login trap mechanics - aka by taking the time and effort to actually move capitals and subcaps in, log them off, and then patiently wait for said groups to begin running sites. Currently, there is only one way to determine if a WH is worth seeding/active, and that is by checking the HISTORY of NPC kills through the API, aka seeing "oh these guys ran sites 18 hours ago" - this information allows us to make a somewhat informed decision on whether we want to seed the WH or not. Without this, the only way we can possibly seed a WH is by making a complete shot in the dark.

Removing the API npc kill data completely stacks the odds in favor of the WH NPCers - the npc kill data was our best, last, and ONLY advantage over someone PVEing in wspace.

From reading your posts, I assume the problem you have is us being able to passively gather intel on our chain while not having pilots in space doing the work - would you feel that adding in a delayed API would be a better choice?

Perhaps write it in so the API gives us the NPC kill history of a system - but it's delayed by 8-12 hours? This way, we cannot get "live" intel on systems easily, but we can see some trends of NPC kills in order to determine if there is even anyone active in that WH (online POS mean nothing in terms of activity).

Additionally, I would politely suggest/ask that you implement a modified version of the "delayed k162 spawn" suggestion discussed earlier. I feel that Wspace PVEers are given too much free instant intel through absolutely no effort of their own, making them far too safe. I don't want to punish someone willing to do active intel, so I would hope this wouldn't extend to probes, but delaying the built-in passive dscanner from picking up a new sig by at least a minute would go a long way towards leveling the playing field in terms of wspace pvp groups being able to catch PVEers.

One of your stated design goals of wspace is that lack of intel, or a local chat - right now, being able to see new sigs pop up instantly acts in exactly the same manner as local does for most nullsec PVE residents, and I would assume THIS goes against your stated design goals.

Please give some consideration to my thoughts, and try to keep things balanced for both sides, rather than handing all the advantages to one side.

Appreciated,

Servant's Lord, Disavowed

Just to be clear, this is only for NPC kills and not ship/pod kills?

Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...

Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.

Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.

Will we be getting the all kill reports end point for Kronos?