Trinkets Friendly research laboratories has conducted research on Battleships versus Frigates using cruise missiles. The two contenders are the Raven and Typhoon.

The Typhoon gets a hull-based explosion velocity bonus. The Raven get some naff, useless missile velocity bonus.
The Typhoon can armour tank (if it wants) and can fit twin TP's. The Raven can't really armour tank, so it can't really fit a spare EWAR mod without being a complete joke at tanking.
Both can triple rigor rig and use Precisions, and attain a explosion radius of ~120m. The Typhoon gets a much more handy explosion velocity and can pump the enemy sig up 90% with twin TP's.

The actual performance of these two BS is starkly different. Sure, the Raven's missiles hit sooner, but the DPS is the same on paper, so who cares if your missiles hit sooner? Like, seriously, irrelevant. It's not like alpha with a turret.

The Typhoon can effectively alpha frigates (yes, including MWDing low-sig armour frigs) whereas the Raven has trouble killing anything. This is tested and proven.

Clearly the difference is that the Typhoon has a hull bonus on explosive velocity and can rig for explosion radius. The Raven can only do one of these, and it is insufficient.

The Phoenix is in the same position as the Raven. Sure, you can triple T2 rigor fit it (for 1.5 bilLOLions), but that just fixes half the problem.

Ergo, the solution is to give the Phoenix a explosion velocity bonus to the hull. Screw fast missiles.

I would like to take this moment to remind you gentlemen about the practicalities of these changes. Since this is like the fifth time I post a very similar reply in this thread, excuse my resorting to bullet points.

• The nerfed Explosion Radius means that the Phoenix will become flat out 50% worse at hitting anything that's either stationary or webbed enough to effectively be considered stationary by the equation, and has a signature below its Explosion Radius. The maximum speed for "webbed enough" is targetSigRadius / missileExplosionRadius * missileExplosionVelocity.


• The buffed Explosion Velocity means that the Phoenix will become about 25% better at hitting anything that is moving above the minimum speed you got from the equation above, assuming they aren't several times larger in Signature Radius than the new Explosion Radius of the Phoenix is (because small Explosion Radius makes up for small Explosion Velocity, see point 2 here). In practice this means that the Phoenix becomes a little better at hitting everything as small or smaller than a Carrier that is moving at its top speed while not being webbed/painted. However, since triaged Carriers and Dreads aren't moving and can't be target painted, the Phoenix applies worse to them.


• The above means that the Phoenix becomes universally better at blapping (moving) cruisers, and better at hitting not-quad webbed battleships. However, if you have enough webs on a battleship to reduce its speed below the minimum tanking speed, the Phoenix becomes comparably worse at applying to it.


• Also, because Stasis Webifiers are more effective than Target Painters, the more Target Painters and Stasis Webifiers you apply on a target, the closer to 0% the "25% buff" becomes, turning into the negatives (becoming a nerf) if you have "enough" (again, see the equation) webs.


• Note that this doesn't translate to "less webs = better". It translates to "less webs doesn't hurt you as much, and more webs or 90% webs won't give you as much benefit".

Here's a post with two practical examples against armor+afterburner subcaps. As you can see, the Phoenix applies comparably better to the Proteus than the Abaddon, but overall the difference in subcap application isn't very significant.

Yeah, I did. It would certainly fix the issue with hitting caps, but it doesn't really make these changes any better since without the changes, that issue would never exist in the first place. My post was to point out that these changes certainly aren't making the Phoenix significantly worse at hitting subcapitals than it used to be, which is why I only quoted that one sentence in your post.

Fancy maths to further improve my points and ideas.

I have a suspicion this change is merely a stopgap until the full capital rebalance coming in a later expansion. The mere fact we got a phoenix improvement in kronos shows ccp is aware how broken the ship is. Continue pointing out the problems and be patient

Why not just put a Signature Radius Penalty on the Triage module while it is active, for example,+50% signature. Then Triage Carriers will take full application from the Phoenix, the signature radius penalty won't affect gameplay in any other meaningful way.

I've posted that proposal mean a-times in this thread. Thanks for the +1