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Tux: please look at stealthbombers.

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bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.30 06:02:00 - [1] Can yoou please just take a look at stealthbombers. I have tried the nemesis and its impossible to fit without MAPC. The damage you get from your missiles is very weak against intercepotrs and fast frigates. Its is a weak ship and most BS will just instapop it at range. Please give this ship a role because right now it just sucks.
Alekzander	Posted - 2006.05.30 06:23:00 - [2] You know, it fires cruise missiles, it's not meant to kill small targets, its meant to be sneaky, fire a salvo at something large, then go back to hiding again. Thus Stealth bomber.
Flash Landsraad	Posted - 2006.05.30 06:29:00 - [3] You're not meant to do large ammounts of damage against small frigates and fast moving targets, that's the only possible defence against missiles that exists. Stop Whining!
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2006.05.30 06:36:00 - [4] Originally by: Alekzander it's not meant to kill small targets Yet that's what it does best at the moment, even though it's lacking in THAT. Bombers need a role change. The explosion radius bonus has to go, and in place of that these things either need more speed, less mass (the ability to at least move as fast as Assault Frigates) or they need to use torpedos. Learn what it means to be Caldari - www.omertasyndicate.com
Raznarok	Posted - 2006.05.30 06:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Alekzander You know, it fires cruise missiles, it's not meant to kill small targets, its meant to be sneaky, fire a salvo at something large, then go back to hiding again. Thus Stealth bomber. /signed. Not to forget that the larger missiles, do crap damage on faster moving/smaller targets anyway.
Tremain	Posted - 2006.05.30 07:13:00 - [6] It can't cloak again until after the missiles have hit - that is what makes them so useless. If you could decloak a fleet of SB's, launch at your primary and then recloak it would make them a deadly surprise attack platform, as it is you decloak launch and sit there 20 seconds getting shot at; if you you de-cloak so close as to negate missile fly time you run into problems with drones, scramblers, frigate support.
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.30 07:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Raznarok Originally by: Alekzander You know, it fires cruise missiles, it's not meant to kill small targets, its meant to be sneaky, fire a salvo at something large, then go back to hiding again. Thus Stealth bomber. /signed. Not to forget that the larger missiles, do crap damage on faster moving/smaller targets anyway. Ok it sucks against large targets aswell. Its damage is weak its great "volley damage" can be done by an interceptor in seconds and the interceptor has a much greater chance of survival. Most cruisers, BS will laugh at its crap damage then pop it in seconds.
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.30 07:17:00 - [8] Not to mention you cannot fit a nemesis without powermods.
kveldulfson	Posted - 2006.05.30 07:26:00 - [9] The stealth bomber is to be honest a joke. The main problems are it has very poor damage output even when used in fleets, no chance of survival once locked as the armour is so weak. And it can not warp cloaked so it can be seen arriving which cancels out the sneaky part to a large extent. Firing cloaked is not a good idea as that makes it far too powerful a weapon in fleet warfare, but perhaps warping cloaked and a change to damage bonuses might at least make it of some use in fleet engagements. And lastly even with great skills its almost impossible to fit so some power output / cpu changes are needed to be honest, just not too much
Arte	Posted - 2006.05.30 08:25:00 - [10] The question anyone proposing changes to stealth bombers has to answer first is what to they see it's role as. Frig killers, extra firepower attacking against larger targets in fleets, nothing except lone indy gankers??? When it can be decided what they'd be actually used for instead of other frigs, then the bonuses and fitting ability can be considered. The way it is at the moment, with force recon ships being able to warp cloaked and mount offence/defence to a (debated) degree, I don't think that it would be so bad to let the stealth bombers warp cloaked in the way that they would have been too powerful before. If that happens then the limited ability they have in fleet fights would be negated to a great degree. Perhaps let them fit seige launcher as well as cruise launchers so that they would be viable against larger targets if fitted just so. The way it would stand then, it would be better if Stealth bombers could warp cloaked (allowed to fit covert ops cloaks, but please increase cov-ops cloaks bpo at the same time!) but still moved like slugs when cloaked, and it was the covert ops frigates that had the "move faster when cloaked" bonus instead of their damage bonus. That would allow them to still be the preferred platform for scouting and the stealth bombers, though still 'slug like' would be improved but not to the point of being too powerful.

Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 08:35:00 - [11] To the people who think complaints about bombers and especially the Nemesis is just whining: either you've never flown a Nemesis (or one of the non-Manticore bombers), or you're smoking some interesting weed. Short and simple excercise for you: get a Nemesis. Fit it with 2 tech1 cruise launchers and a cloak. Observe that you now have about 2 grid left to fill the rest of the 8 slots with. Now, does anyone see a problem with this? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Note that these are the plain-vanilla tech1 intended weapons of this ship. Nothing fancy, nothing tech2. Nemesis sucks more than the Ares, and that's saying a lot in this game. In addition, bombers as a whole suck, for multiple reasons (see the other thread).
Tremain	Posted - 2006.05.30 08:37:00 - [12] What could be done to the SB? Allow cloaking even when locked - that would be nice Allow missiles to keep flying after cloaking - very nice Allow FOF missiles to keep flying after you recloak But require code changes I suspect? What could be done easily? Ship bonus to increase cruise speed massively - so they'll scoot along to the target even from 100km in just a few seconds. Allow the covert ops cloak (warp cloaked) so you can get a true surprise attack. CCP are busy, they have so many things I doubt they want to be coding potentially game breaking features for the SB right now. I'd like to see missiles carry on after a re-cloak (even if they're only fof's), it may unbalance other ships but as they're only fof's maybe not too badly.
cytomatrix	Posted - 2006.05.30 08:55:00 - [13] Let them use Covertops cloak or allow them to warp cloaked!!!
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:00:00 - [14] Originally by: cytomatrix Let them use Covertops cloak or allow them to warp cloaked!!! That would easily make normal covops frigates obsolete. But yeah, bombers need a rethink, they aren't usually worth the isk at the moment, especially with today's crazy cloak prices. Sure, in a group they can provide nice exra firepower -- but in a group most other ships can also provide that extra firepower and do lots else besides. Solo, the only thing they can kill is a t1 frigate or a hauler, if they get lucky. Sigh.
Dinique	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Alekzander You know, it fires cruise missiles, it's not meant to kill small targets, its meant to be sneaky, fire a salvo at something large, then go back to hiding again. Thus Stealth bomber. QFT. Its also not meant to go in alone, or start fights. Get that battleship firing at a cruiser or something, then say hi. Apart from fitting issues, Stealth Bombers are fine. _____ There's so many different worlds So many different suns And we have just one world But we live in different ones
Kunming	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:04:00 - [16] These ships should be vulnerable to frigs/cruisers and dangerous against BS. They are weak alright, but as long as they use cruise missiles they wont be any danger to a BS. Atm even a group of them cant put out enough DPS to break a BSs tank. They should remove the whole cruise missile thingy and give them bombs, we actually had bombs in the database when the stealth bombers were first in design but I guess they were rushed in the end, just like carriers, and we ended up with cruise missiles instead of bombs. What are bombs? Slow moving, short range, high dmg missiles maybe?..
Dinique	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Kunming These ships should be vulnerable to frigs/cruisers and dangerous against BS. They are weak alright, but as long as they use cruise missiles they wont be any danger to a BS. Atm even a group of them cant put out enough DPS to break a BSs tank. They should remove the whole cruise missile thingy and give them bombs, we actually had bombs in the database when the stealth bombers were first in design but I guess they were rushed in the end, just like carriers, and we ended up with cruise missiles instead of bombs. What are bombs? Slow moving, short range, high dmg missiles maybe?.. 2 Caracals (T1 fitted) and 1 Manticore can kill battleships. Have done it. And slow moving high damage missiles are called Torpedos ;p _____ There's so many different worlds So many different suns And we have just one world But we live in different ones
The Major	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:14:00 - [18] I think the only kills I ever got in my Manticore were when we used other ships as bait and hid a few of us around a station. This would have been over a year ago. I'm not sure where I want stealth bombers to stand myself. I really enjoy flying them and they should probably be much better at the solo belt-hunting thing than they are. However the one single definite truth in this thread is this: THE NEMESIS NEEDS A GRID BOOST Seriously it does. You can just about fit 3 launchers to the manticore if you train cov ops to 5 (which all cov ops pilots should really as your cloak is free on regular cov ops ships making for room for scan probes AND ecm). But the Nemesis can barely manage to fit it's two launchers nevermind the two turrets it needs to compete in terms of DPS with the Mant. In comparison the Hound is way better as you can fit a Dual cruise & Dual 280 setup which ganks better than even the Mant within warp disruptor range. Also engaging at ranges less than 30km in a bomber you can cloak immediately after firing and have your missiles hit due to the lag between the client/server. Short explanation is that by the time you see your launchers activate on your client they have been going for about a second on the server. So by the time your request to cloak again reaches the server the missiles have already hit. Your client just hasn't been told about it yet.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Dinique 2 Caracals (T1 fitted) and 1 Manticore can kill battleships. Have done it. 2 Caracals and a cloaked intereceptor would have done the job much better. Or two Caracals and <insert pretty much any t2 ship here>. Sure, they can provide some extra DPS. Thing is, so can most other ships, and do it much better and cheaper. Against a BS or cruiser, that bomber expl radius bonus is being totally wasted, it's just a fragile cruise missile battery. A battleship (cloaked or not) would work much better and be insurable, to boot. The only thing bombers really have going for them is the explosion radius thing, which makes their cruises good against small targets. Use a bomber against a larger target, and you should really be using something else, you're wasting the bomber there.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:17:00 - [20] Originally by: The Major THE NEMESIS NEEDS A GRID BOOST Amen. With a Hallelujah! thrown in. That ship defines "suck" at the moment.

AnxietyAttack	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:26:00 - [21] Fly them in a pack and u will toast cruisers, certain bs and whatever else is silly enough to stay still. Interceptors are only a prob when they get to speed, never had a problem popping t1 frigs, they usually die in 1 salvo, not being sacastic but maybe your missile skill tree needs a little love. It is a tight fit at lv4, lv5 makes it abit easier but takes awhile so it depends really on how much you intend on using it imo. Kiss it
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:30:00 - [22] Originally by: AnxietyAttack Fly them in a pack and u will toast cruisers, certain bs and whatever else is silly enough to stay still. Fly battleships in a pack and you can toast a lot more. And with the current cloak prices, it's not even much more expensive and it's fully insurable. Hell, even a pack of t1 cruisers will perform better vs. other cruisers and battleships than a pack of bombers. If you want to hunt other frigs, a pack of interceptors performs much, much better. And it can kill cruisers and battleships in addition.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 09:35:00 - [23] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 30/05/2006 09:36:03 Originally by: AnxietyAttack It is a tight fit at lv4, lv5 makes it abit easier but takes awhile so it depends really on how much you intend on using it imo. That comment makes it clear you're talking about the Manticore. With all its problems, the Manticore is the only even vaguely useful bomber out there, and I'd argue that it too sucks in general -- meaning that other ships do the same job better. Thing is, there are 3 other bombers in the game. They have only 2 cruise launchers, and lack grid to fit proper additional weapons. If Manticore is borderline, the other 3 range from "bad" (Hound) to "abysmal" (Nemesis). I mean, what R&D department built the Nemesis anyway? It can barely fit the 2 cruise launchers, let alone anything else. The only thing that thing is the "nemesis" of is the careers of the engineers who 'designed' the abomination.
The Major	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:00:00 - [24] Actually screw that I just did some research and discovered that if I fit all 4 bombers for gank at 10km the Nemesis comes out on top with 66dps. Next is the Manticore at 56 Purifier at 55 Hound: 52 The Manticore only gets as high as it does as it's the only ship that has the cpu left to fit a Ballistic Control System (Tech 2 natch). It is however the only ship I left with an empty slot (a high slot) due to the fact that the BCS added more damage than a turret (not to mention if I fit a web and 20km disruptor to be inline with the other setups even with a T2 co-proc it couldn't fit a 75mm Railgun). The Hound needed two MAPCs to fit a dual 280 setup (which does as much alpha strike as a third launcher would) but didn't have the grid or CPU to put anything in the remaining low than a Nanofiber. So it's easily the fastest of the lot. The Purifier needed 2 mapcs and a co-proc II to fit dual Cruise/Dual Medium Beam setup. The Nemesis did more DPS with Neutron Blasters but we all know that just isn't practical when you have to get within 2.5km of the target and as such can no longer cloak. Fitted with two 150 IIs it did more DPS than all the other bombers (although alpha strike was below the Hound and Mant). Again it took 2 MAPCs to fit. The mids all used 1 named web and 1 named 20km scram (to keep cpu use down as they were all very tight) with either sensor boosters or phased muon dampners in the remaining mids. All of the bombers are heavily gimped in terms of grid and frankly the Manticore aint that good if it's within tackling range.
Kunming	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Dinique Originally by: Kunming These ships should be vulnerable to frigs/cruisers and dangerous against BS. They are weak alright, but as long as they use cruise missiles they wont be any danger to a BS. Atm even a group of them cant put out enough DPS to break a BSs tank. They should remove the whole cruise missile thingy and give them bombs, we actually had bombs in the database when the stealth bombers were first in design but I guess they were rushed in the end, just like carriers, and we ended up with cruise missiles instead of bombs. What are bombs? Slow moving, short range, high dmg missiles maybe?.. 2 Caracals (T1 fitted) and 1 Manticore can kill battleships. Have done it. And slow moving high damage missiles are called Torpedos ;p Torps are not short range though, bomb shold have more dmg than torps but very short range like 15km.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: cytomatrix Let them use Covertops cloak or allow them to warp cloaked!!! That would easily make normal covops frigates obsolete. care to explain why you think that? 13 -_-
Phish1	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Tremain It can't cloak again until after the missiles have hit - that is what makes them so useless. If you could decloak a fleet of SB's, launch at your primary and then recloak it would make them a deadly surprise attack platform, as it is you decloak launch and sit there 20 seconds getting shot at; if you you de-cloak so close as to negate missile fly time you run into problems with drones, scramblers, frigate support. look, FFS read some of the RMR stealth bomber threads, they all tell you how to use these! you can cloak and your missiles still continue for a short while (at least 30km with skills), so of course this is great, belt rats are also funny to kill, just doing this, not letting them get a lock on you means they dont think they are "engaging an enemy", and they dont rep/boost at all. so if this ability to do damage while not tere is "useless" then why do i love to fly the bombers. look, just cos you cant use them the way they are doesent mean they are useless. If tux wants to change anything, I think he should: + give them better base speeds + give them a hidden explosion velocity bonus too, these would make bombers much more valuable in 0.0 and FFS stop whining about the ship, if you die in it, then you cant use it.
Dinique	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Dinique Originally by: Kunming These ships should be vulnerable to frigs/cruisers and dangerous against BS. They are weak alright, but as long as they use cruise missiles they wont be any danger to a BS. Atm even a group of them cant put out enough DPS to break a BSs tank. They should remove the whole cruise missile thingy and give them bombs, we actually had bombs in the database when the stealth bombers were first in design but I guess they were rushed in the end, just like carriers, and we ended up with cruise missiles instead of bombs. What are bombs? Slow moving, short range, high dmg missiles maybe?.. 2 Caracals (T1 fitted) and 1 Manticore can kill battleships. Have done it. And slow moving high damage missiles are called Torpedos ;p Torps are not short range though, bomb shold have more dmg than torps but very short range like 15km. Actually Torpedoes are short range weapons that just happen to have a very long range. _____ There's so many different worlds So many different suns And we have just one world But we live in different ones
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:45:00 - [29] Originally by: The Major Actually screw that I just did some research and discovered that if I fit all 4 bombers for gank at 10km the Nemesis comes out on top with 66dps. Next is the Manticore at 56 Purifier at 55 Hound: 52 Yeah. On paper and in theory, that's how it looks. The thing is, that DPS number is pretty meaningless, because it only matters if you can kill the target before you die. And the only target you'll kill in a gank-fitted close-range bomber before you die is something frigate-size... and that's the problem. You need a frigate to sit still somewhere so you can crawl right up next to them in the slow cloaked bomber, then you need for them to be slow enough in reacting that they don't get up speed before you manage to lock and fire. It can happen, sure. But it's very, very rare. War targets rarely sit still like that. In most cases, ranged (or at least semi-ranged) alpha strike is where it's at for bombers. And Manticore is the only one capable of that, really.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:47:00 - [30] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: cytomatrix Let them use Covertops cloak or allow them to warp cloaked!!! That would easily make normal covops frigates obsolete. care to explain why you think that? Well, if I had a frigate that could warp cloaked and deal damage if needed, in many use cases I would much prefer that to a normal covops which are pure scouts. Sure, that still leaves the covops with speed and better probe use, so maybe I'm worrying without reason. I just wouldn't like to see a change that makes another ship type obsolete.



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