Speaking of intellectual dishonesty and saying there aren't quantifiable differences in education, intelligence, social standards, culture, wealth and other rather important factors between ethnic, social, cultural and national factions in the same post? Genetics certainly determine a significant portion of your capacity and so does upbringing, training, instilled values etc.

If you really think holding hands around a fire and singing "We Are New Eden!" will ever happen, you need therapy. We all have some standards and views that others will never reach and pretending they're anything else will be detrimental to everyone involved. Factions, ethnicities and nations will never consider each other to be equal. Superior or inferior, sure.

That's what gives people in the cluster something to reach for and those who succeed will be better.

Aren't you the guy who tried to start his own religion here?

I do not think that should have any relation to the points brought forth in this thread? I do not understand the need of posters on this forum to always distract from the topics and points raised.

I don't know... The Caldari do practice Eugenics to a certain degree - but I'm willing to stipulate that the effects of the Tubechild program probably only amount to a few percentage points of difference, given how few Caldari enjoy the benefits of it.

Are you willing to accept that stipulation?

As a former Kameira I certainly would not argue against the scientific validity of eugenics to emphasize certain traits. However the only stipulation required would be that eugenics programs are a way to emphasize certain traits and they of course could be implemented by any government who decided for whatever reason good or bad to introduce them into their population.

It seems to be quite the fashion here on IGS to speak of GÇ£otherGÇ¥ people, our fellow humans, as if they are somehow by the very nature of their birth within certain political spheres or ethnic groups somehow lesser then whatever group or category we were either born into or migrated to ourselves.

I would like to put that foolish notion to rest once and for all, humans as a specie are generally equal in capacity on average. There is no legitimate quantifiable empirical data that has ever indicated otherwise.

Certainly political & religious spheres create patterns of social behavior that become readily identifiable with some people raised under their influence, but these are just that, patterns of behavior, not inate genetic destiny or limitations.

I would like to challenge all those who speak here on IGS to meet the minimum standard of intellectual honesty when posting about groups of people that are GÇ£otherGÇ¥ than themselves, to apply all the rights, privileges, capacity, and humanity they attribute to themselves to the GÇ£othersGÇ¥ equally. If that standard is met I think it will elevate the overall conversation here on IGS.

The popular and powerful religious, nationalistic, and ethnic chest thumping will have it's place as indicators of our individual patterns of behavior but they will no longer be allowed to masquerade as proven scientific facts.

I will attempt to have my future posts reflect this more intellectually balanced standard and I both invite and challenge you to join me in doing so.

Aaaaaaannnd, que Kimmy to tell us why this is wrong and why the Federation must be destroyed.

Then Nappy to do the same....

It seems to be quite the fashion here on IGS to speak of GÇ£otherGÇ¥ people, our fellow humans, as if they are somehow by the very nature of their birth within certain political spheres or ethnic groups somehow lesser then whatever group or category we were either born into or migrated to ourselves.

I would like to put that foolish notion to rest once and for all, humans as a specie are generally equal in capacity on average. There is no legitimate quantifiable empirical data that has ever indicated otherwise.

Certainly political & religious spheres create patterns of social behavior that become readily identifiable with some people raised under their influence, but these are just that, patterns of behavior, not inate genetic destiny or limitations.

I would like to challenge all those who speak here on IGS to meet the minimum standard of intellectual honesty when posting about groups of people that are GÇ£otherGÇ¥ than themselves, to apply all the rights, privileges, capacity, and humanity they attribute to themselves to the GÇ£othersGÇ¥ equally. If that standard is met I think it will elevate the overall conversation here on IGS.

The popular and powerful religious, nationalistic, and ethnic chest thumping will have it's place as indicators of our individual patterns of behavior but they will no longer be allowed to masquerade as proven scientific facts.

I will attempt to have my future posts reflect this more intellectually balanced standard and I both invite and challenge you to join me in doing so.

It is Written, in the Apocryphon, that All may become Chosen, that All people are Equal in Gods Kingdom.

Wait... Matar Ronin making sense?!

Good grief, there may be hope that the Minmatar Empire finally stops it's war against the Amarrian Federation someday after all.

Also, anyone else notice anything weird happening with their clone infomorph transfer thingies lately?

I was slightly more perturbed by the "Minmatar Empire". Apparently something awesome went down and I missed out on it.

Them damn Sebbies took over, finally, huh?

It is Written, in the Apocryphon, that All may become Chosen, that All people are Equal in Gods Kingdom.

Everyone says that I'm suposed to be smart and good with machines, but I'm not. Is that bad? Is that being dishonest? I'd love the be brave, strong and an excellent pilot, I really would! But right now I'm just content of being able to afford a research laboratory filled with gadgets and gizmos for me to play with and a ship to fly in. And I got to meet so many people in the meantime.

Like Mister Nauplius for example. He is a mean monster, that says he hates me for being born the way I am, but I don't hate him or even dislike him. He is very passionate with his scriptures and preaching, however, but he could use more friends. I'd be more friendly to him if he didn't thought of it as an insult.

Miss Kim on the other hand, is the coolest pilot I know and I want to be just as cool as her! She takes no nonsense from anyone, loves the people she protects and upholds their way of life! Like a superhero! Everyone thinks she is wierd and overzealous though, and like to make fun of her way of thinking. I don't think that's very nice...

But I figure if everyone I meet in space is on top of the transhumanism pyramid, being quirky and passionate about their lives and activities is the only way we can stand out as individuals. And that's okay! We should accept everyone for what they are, even if we think what they do is wrong.

Like Mister Nauplius for example. He is a mean monster, that says he hates me for being born the way I am, but I don't hate him or even dislike him. He is very passionate with his scriptures and preaching, however, but he could use more friends. I'd be more friendly to him if he didn't thought of it as an insult.

I was slightly touched by this sentiment. For a second or two.

I guess the ugly looking minmatar slave has a point...

Nah.

The cultural and historical choices made by some groups have made them reviled, so they are subject to scorn and ridicule for being monstrous slavers. I look forward to the day when that curse no longer exists in New Eden and all the slavers have all been reformed or eliminated. Our state has made a tragic misstep in siding with this malignant evil that seems to be infecting the pure soul of the Caldari people. We need to stand for freedom, ours and for everyone else also.

This is the worst crap I ever heard so far from "Caldari" person.
Being so much brainwashed by gallentean "anti-slavery" propaganda is simply disgusting.
Such weakness must not be tolerated!
I hope you will die soon and dishonor you brought on your family will be washed with your blood, and your name will be erased from family archives.

I can picture your DNA readout next to your picture hanging on the walls of genetic facilities all over Caldari space with a sign that reads GÇ£KEEP A SOBER WORK PLACE, WE DO NOT WANT TO MAKE ANY MORE OF THESE!GÇ¥

I don't know, Diana Kim's killboard is pretty good; the Caldari authorities may be thinking, "if we had a couple hundred more of these, then the Federation wouldn't last a month".

We could, at least, form a multilateral board of peer review for evaluating the intellectual honesty of IGS posts. While this wouldn't prevent the sort of behavior the original poster was complaining about, we might encourage a slight shift in discourse by rewarding contributors with some unofficial recognition.

Surely there are pilots with the time to do this.

While such a thing does not exist at the moment, there are some Galnet channels which are intended to function similarly. For instance, I am connected to the Amarr-aligned channel, and I understand a Minmatar variant exists as well.

Democracies are hypocrisies and ineffective, tribalism are primitive and heavily influenced by irrational emotions, only people that realise these can be considered a person of intellect.
But it is clear that there are exceptions to every social stereotype, like not all Gallentes are hypocrites, and not all Minmatars are impulsive monsters.

The Amarrians though, I think we need to consider them as aliens. Like a horde of angry old aliens.

Many Caldaris are sympathetic to the 'democratic' federation, as such it can be derived that even amongst us there's the usual degenerates.

There is no singular 'perfect' or 'superior' governmental system (except the law of Claudia). Just as how there is no such thing as a perfect automation system, a perfect power grid, a perfect locomotive system or a perfect integrated circuit system. Everything ever devised by human hands and minds will always have a flaw somewhere that needs to be identified and planned for.

However, what works, works. It can always use some improvement, because even if it works most of the time it still isn't perfect. It still has flaws or it can be made to work better. However, unless more of us can bring ourselves to swallow our pride and admit that everything we devise is not perfect, is flawed and can be made better can we start actually making steps forward as a species.

Many Caldaris are sympathetic to the 'democratic' federation, as such it can be derived that even amongst us there's the usual degenerates.

There is no singular 'perfect' or 'superior' governmental system. Just as how there is no such thing as a perfect automation system, a perfect power grid, a perfect locomotive system or a perfect integrated circuit system. Everything ever devised by human hands and minds will always have a flaw somewhere that needs to be identified and planned for.

However, what works, works. It can always use some improvement, because even if it works most of the time it still isn't perfect. It still has flaws or it can be made to work better. However, unless more of us can bring ourselves to swallow our pride and admit that everything we devise is not perfect, is flawed and can be made better can we start actually making steps forward as a species.

This.

Tsk tsk, all this rage. You all need to sit down, pop a few boosters and play some cards. Chillmode engage.

Heathens, let me enlighten you on this.

"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy.
But those who turn away from his light,
And reject his true word
Shall be struck down by his wrath
For we are his retribution incarnate
His Angels of Vengeance"
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45

We, God's chosen, were sent to redeem the various races. But many turned us away when we peacefully offered them a chance at salvation from their eternal damnation.

In the beginning everyone was equal, but chaos and blasphemy ensued. True Amarrs lived by God's side and were chosen to rule the world. So no, there is no equality between the races anymore. We True Amarrians are superior to all else.

I would like to challenge all those who speak here on IGS to meet the minimum standard of intellectual honesty when posting about groups of people that are GÇ£otherGÇ¥ than themselves, to apply all the rights, privileges, capacity, and humanity they attribute to themselves to the GÇ£othersGÇ¥ equally. If that standard is met I think it will elevate the overall conversation here on IGS.

Denied. Your fantasy book proves nothing, all people are equal in the eyes of Claudia. It is your actions and attitude that I shall judge you on when the time comes.

It's the Sebiestor Plot.

Democracies are hypocrisies and ineffective, tribalism are primitive and heavily influenced by irrational emotions, only people that realise these can be considered a person of intellect.
But it is clear that there are exceptions to every social stereotype, like not all Gallentes are hypocrites, and not all Minmatars are impulsive monsters.

The Amarrians though, I think we need to consider them as aliens. Like a horde of angry old aliens.

Many Caldaris are sympathetic to the 'democratic' federation, as such it can be derived that even amongst us there's the usual degenerates.

Typical words of a heathen. Please continue to be ignorant, eventually all who deny God will be purged from existence.

impotant. I like that word, since it defuses tension.

Those who believe can pretend he meant to say important. Those who don't can pretend he meant to say impotent.

On reflection I think you are correct - although I'm not certain why it's relevant that Claudia is Gallentean, unless you're confusing me with Kim-haani.

Well, I'm shocked I made that mistake now I take a proper look at you. Thank you for handling my oafishness so well.

I suppose it could also be all the times I'm asked if I'm a Gallente male for that matter.

I for one would love to see a minimum standard of intellectual honesty.

As somebody who always attempts to use impeccable logic to make a point, it can be somewhat frustrating to find oneself in an argument with an intellectual pygmy.

Can IGS Posts Meet A Minimum Standard of Intellectual Honesty?

Can they? Yes.

Will they? I wouldn't count on it.

Hmm...




... Yeah, I thought I'd given the only concise and to-the-point answer to the OP. Too bad it got buried by everyone else proving my point.

There is so much selective perception in this post, it's like seeing things through a mantis shrimp's eyes.

Hmm...




... Yeah, I thought I'd given the only concise and to-the-point answer to the OP. Too bad it got buried by everyone else proving my point.

(I have nothing against you people, you just have the worst holo's and you know it.)

To be honest, I never met an alive Minmatar before I became a capsuleer. I knew that they exist somewhere, and that they have Minmatar Republic somewhere in the space. But nobody here really cared about them, who they are and what they were doing.
There were some reports about business with minmatar corporation here and there, that's all the information we had.

My opinion about your peoples is a consequence of analysis of behaviour of minmatar people, their abilities, their manners, their honor, their tendencies to keep words and deals, or, more likely, not keeping them. All these actions, all these peoples I met, made my mind about Minmatar people. Most of information was provided by such peoples like Ayallah, Anabella Rella, and so on.

After talks with them, I am pretty sure, that I really don't want to discuss important things with peoples who have "intellect of a Brutor", or "honor of a Sebiestor".

Third: leave the blob in huola some time, I do not have all summer to hunt you nor the inclination to join every fleet just to get a chance to shoot at you. let me ******* kill you already,

It's an understandable mistake. I keep mistaking Gallente boys for women too, given the lack of proper Civire chiseled jawlines or that Brutor bulk. I suppose it could also be all the times I'm asked if I'm a Gallente male for that matter.

If you joined our fleet you too could watch her ship disintegrate in a single second.

Exploring differences is how you improve your own kind. Examine everything that is different, unknown, difficult or out of the ordinary. You'll find either flaws or improvements that can be applied or weeded out of your own societies, or even come up with something completely new should the right combination of information slosh around in your head in the right quantities.

No. Discussing the merits of a system of governance is not even remotely analogous to your rather stretched metaphor. It's the only way towards self-improvement.

Or you could of course just "kill each other in peace" because that's been known to do a whole lot of good.

damnant quod non intelligunt

edit: unless you were offended by the op, why would people post here aside from trolling or entertainment? let alone follow O_o I prefer nature and informational non-fiction myself, not this gallente holo-drama drivel.

(I have nothing against you people, you just have the worst holo's and you know it.)

Oh on the contrary, Jade. It's changed quite a bit where it was supposed to. It's not necessarily the norm, but it happens often enough to count. Your own views or that of others change through discourse. One or two other readers might take different viewpoints into account and change their own. Sweeping societal changes aren't wrought on the IGS, but through several thousand if not millions of places quite similar to the IGS, through "the same decades-old arguments".

Silencing the discussion does nothing but put up walls between every camp and everything stagnates. These walls still exist and there's a certain waft of rot from every camp yet, but without the discussions it'll be even worse.

It's never been about sweeping entire demographics away in a burst of logic and reason. It's been about pitting your views against that of another and seeing if anything happens. Sometimes, often enough to make it worthwhile, it does. Frankly, trying to silence these exchanges reeks of fear. A fear that your own standpoint is on crumbling ground and must be protected from scrutiny or dissenting opinion. If you consider it sound and strong, you should be cherishing it whenever any viewpoint locks horns with another as it's the only way to raise the good ones and erode the ones without merit.

If you simply find it boring, go find some amusement rather than trying to silence that which no one has ever forced you to participate in.

I know, I know...

Didn't we agree earlier that the answer to the OPs question was probably 'No'?

You are probably the most ill-informed person I know of on the Minmatar people.

First clue: you could ask at any time and receive information.

Second: we, as a people wear our hearts on our shoulders and our truths in our graves. you always use the word Jajii and racism but you do so little to preserve your own people and culture that all you are doing is weakening the state. You should decide then who you are insulting, culture-wise.

(though self awareness was never your thing.)

Third: leave the blob in huola some time, I do not have all summer to hunt you nor the inclination to join every fleet just to get a chance to shoot at you. let me ******* kill you already,

because you keep saying my name

Okay, minmatar, I can just call you a minmatar. You can be happy, since I didn't say your name today.

Are you stupid?

Honest question. This Kim person seems completely ********.

She's... Unique? I guess that's the polite way of putting it. I think she may have Irreverseable brain damage, the poor thing.

She will not read anything or study anything unless it ties to her world-view and it is sanctioned by the Provists. She hangs onto Heth's every word. I bet she was elevated to capsuleer status because she wrote a particularly impressive pro-Heth and anti-Gallente essay at some point.

She is hopelessly indoctrinated, narrow minded and too myopic to recognise it. As far as she is concerned, in this cluster only Heth is right, the Caldari is best, everyone else is subhuman and anyone who disagrees with her or Heth or the Provists is mentally ********.

Wow.

I'm hungry. Got any cookies?

Oh, and before I forget, she can't hold her alcohol, is obsessed with rubber missiles and Thorax models (including the vibrating kind) and is easily flustered.

It's true, I swear! Aracturus can vouch for me!

It's true, I swear! Aracturus can vouch for me!

I think I should meet this chick. Maybe change her mind a bit about us Sebbies

I think I should meet this chick. Maybe change her mind a bit about us Sebbies

While you're at it convince Naupolis that the Minmatar are buddy buddy with him.

It seems to be quite the fashion here on IGS to speak of GÇ£otherGÇ¥ people, our fellow humans, as if they are somehow by the very nature of their birth within certain political spheres or ethnic groups somehow lesser then whatever group or category we were either born into or migrated to ourselves.

I would like to put that foolish notion to rest once and for all, humans as a specie are generally equal in capacity on average. There is no legitimate quantifiable empirical data that has ever indicated otherwise.

Certainly political & religious spheres create patterns of social behavior that become readily identifiable with some people raised under their influence, but these are just that, patterns of behavior, not inate genetic destiny or limitations.

I would like to challenge all those who speak here on IGS to meet the minimum standard of intellectual honesty when posting about groups of people that are GÇ£otherGÇ¥ than themselves, to apply all the rights, privileges, capacity, and humanity they attribute to themselves to the GÇ£othersGÇ¥ equally. If that standard is met I think it will elevate the overall conversation here on IGS.

The popular and powerful religious, nationalistic, and ethnic chest thumping will have it's place as indicators of our individual patterns of behavior but they will no longer be allowed to masquerade as proven scientific facts.

I will attempt to have my future posts reflect this more intellectually balanced standard and I both invite and challenge you to join me in doing so.

Good luck with that.

*ahem*

Sarcasm. I really have no response of how to handle this ******.

She will not read anything or study anything unless it ties to her world-view and it is sanctioned by the Provists. She hangs onto Heth's every word. I bet she was elevated to capsuleer status because she wrote a particularly impressive pro-Heth and anti-Gallente essay at some point.

She is hopelessly indoctrinated, narrow minded and too myopic to recognise it. As far as she is concerned, in this cluster only Heth is right, the Caldari is best, everyone else is subhuman and anyone who disagrees with her or Heth or the Provists is mentally ********.

Is this minmatar so much hurt by something, that he is pouring that much crap and lies about me, or it was him, who got irreversible brain damage and unable to see facts, replacing them with his hallucinations?

Is this minmatar so much hurt by something, that he is pouring that much crap and lies about me, or it was him, who got irreversible brain damage and unable to see facts, replacing them with his hallucinations?

Is your brain so small and addled and your eyes and camera drones so entropied that you can only respond with baseless assumptions instead of observations and making personal attacks instead of objecting with verifiable facts?

Considering that you blocked all communications with me over a rather insignificant dispute here (so insignificant I can't even remember) I consider you one of the last people who should be speaking on decency in the summit.

Of course, I think you were the chap that blocked me. If you're reading this, then I sincerely apologize.

I was planning to let this topic rest. But I am afraid I have to mention a small quibble, grouse, gripe with the original post.

The structure of your message revolves around this notion of 'intellectual honesty,' but there is a significant difficulty with your use of the phrase. The people you are criticizing are often not being intellectually dishonest. They quite sincerely believe the facts are as they see them and lead to the conclusions they have come to. Are there charlatans that do not genuinely think what they claim to? Indeed, but it seems likely that is not the majority of participants in the Intergalactic Summit. The people you are criticizing think the facts are actually as they see them and quite rationally come to their worldview through that perception of the facts.

It is disingenuous to claim that those you disagree with are simply being intellectually dishonest and therefore allowing yourself to dismiss them out of hand.

A good example of intellectual dishonesty would be when someone puts forth their own position as if it were proven fact, as in saying what other posters actually believe to be true when they in fact have no scientific way to support their conclusion.

Quite so. There's an important distinction between actual dishonesty and merely being misinformed.

I think I can count the number of people I know well enough to take a guess at their motivations on the fingers of one hand.

That is precisely part of the point. The original speaker was in fact going quite beyond guessing at the motivations of others, but actually accusing them of dishonesty without providing any basis for his broad and sweeping accusation of Intergalactic Summit participants beyond him finding them and their views to be incorrect.

I think I can count the number of people I know well enough to take a guess at their motivations on the fingers of one hand.

You'll never guess mine! I am mysterious like the penguin.

Disregard secretaries, acquire currency.

I am not sure what you are basing your opinion on, but it does not appear to factually be my statement.

Please re-read my original post and then demonstrate how you came to this conclusion.

Perhaps you are reading something into my statement I am unaware of.

Please be specific.

Could you go thru it point by point and show where you find it incorrect?

I am afraid in this particular case I do not see that sort of time investment to be worthwhile. My point was a fairly obvious one and not worth much elaboration.