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Wheya
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:09:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Wheya on 01/06/2006 18:14:12
Originally by: Forsch They got nerfed by other weapons getting boosted.
I have to disagree. The boost of blasters and some projectile longrange weapons was needed. For now I don't comment on the no cap use of projectiles as it will only have an effect in very special circumstances. This remains to be seen.
Lasers come with the highest raw base damage against unhardened targets and they have the best base tracking. This comes at the cost of higher energy consumption. The range of pulse lasers is also an advantage although you can't play that card with a 7-8 heatsink armageddon anymore but that was very badly needed. Once other shortrange weapon users manage to get into their optimal range then they have better tracking as well as better damage output, though. This is a game about webifiers and speed and that's fine. I do not complain. Autocannons and blasters must have this advantagee when it comes to very close range.
Most disadvantages of every weapon system get equalized by the ship bonusses. So far I have no reason to complain and most things seem to be more or less balanced.
I do not complain about raw laser damage output or laser tracking. I do not even complainŠabout lasers doing em damage when it comes to short range - medium range combat. Radio crystals are for sure less effective when it comes to longrange combat.
The main reason to complain are energized adaptivee nano platings in combination with armor compensation skills. People used to have 3 active hardeners (thermal, kintic and explosive) to gain more or less equal armor resistance around 60% against all damage types. Today they can achieve the same with 3 EAN and get an additional 50% em boost to 80%-85% which significantly limits the damage output of lasers but not the damage output of other weapons. (EMP ammo has the same problem)
Lasers are fine, EM damage is fine, even EAN are not really the problem, armor compensation skills which boost EAN are the problem.
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:09:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Crellion (a) 1-15 IS the range of Megapulses with Multis so your argument in the OP (about lasers doing 30 and pvp happening in 1-15 so they are no good) is ludicrous.
Reading comprehension? Dalman said 30km, I was only responding to him - and I actually said that he won't get that with multispectrals. And, no, I wouldn't really say 1-15 is the range you use magepules with multies with, considering they have the worst tracking of shortrange large turrets, it's more like 10-20 km. Closer and you loose effeciency.
Which IS good for shortrange combat, mind you, but point is that this is very close to the blasters and AC usual ranges of 5-15 km. The great range advantage of lasers which people often use to justify their reduced effeciency compared to ACs abd blasters isn't realyl there.
Quote: (b) Ceptor wise and AF you can hurt Hawks and Harpies with small lasers, and that it. Every other frig in game you are better off with proj or rails, and there is a lot of them.
Your point being? That small lasers are relatively useless to small hybrids and projectiles?
Quote: (c) For reasons you can read in the forums the effective weapons wit laser usage atm sre: L pulse L beam (+med pulse Beam + pulse on Zealot only). Thats what he meant about BSs. Other effective ammar pvp set ups are by and large based on drones, nos, frig size guns etc.
Dito. Isn't that in the end an argument that lasers need some fixing?
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Forsch They got nerfed by other weapons getting boosted. I don't care about Tachyons, I'm no battleship pilot.
Since the day that I realized that lasers are like the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr, it only got worse. Yeeha roleplay, CCP sure doesn't make it easy.
tachs are the only ones who got dmg boost, med blasters got easier fitting reqs, with tbh modest consequences
ac top tier get a higher clip size (there was no point fitting them compared to the next tier), they still have to reload tough unlike amarr
no cap for projectiles, 0 effect on arties, nice for ac's if you get nosed to death so you can keep atleast firing (i usually die pretty soon after my cap dies tough so..)
BUT the dmg of other weapon systems didnt get boosted so i dont see how lasers got worse off suddenly
what i agree on is that fitting reqs for some frigsized laser modules are too high, and that lasers are of an disadvantage in the inty game (60-70% standard resists+plates)
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:51:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Aramendel
Energy weapon is not = energy weapon. You could imagine weapons like an antiproton accellerator having these effects, but not lasers. This is mainly because the particles lasers shoot (aka photons) are neutral. Electrical current cannot travel over longer distances in space, a vaccuum is a very good insulator. Given suffecient power an eletrical current can jump over a distance, but this distance is rather small the the power to make an current jump growths expotentially with increasing distance. The only real way it could jump from ship to ship would be using charged particles of a beam as bridge. Which, as said, lasers do not have. Ironically the closest weapon to that would be the Ion blasters from the hybrid blaster tree. Also, electromagnetic fields cannot damage physical objects. It certainly can fry electronics (and could destroy a ship if it fries the electronics of it's fusion reactor), but it would have no real effect of armor or structure.
From a RL viewpoint EVEs lasers are far less realistic than the other weapons.
Ok let me straiten a few things up lol. Protons are not neutral... they are positivly charged. Now one thing in EVE is that lasers are not specific as to what type of laser... Is it an Ion Beam, Particle Beam, Proton Beam, Neutron Beam, ect. -Ion Beam is obvious... its going to flash fry any electrical based system as that is nothing more then an electrical charge. -Proton Beam... Basicly a positivly charged beam cannon. Uses Protons instead of Electrons and focuses them on a target. -Neutron Beam... Uses an excelerator system and then strips out the electrons and protons giving you a stream of neutrons which in theroy should pass through both shields and armor. -A Laser weapon has to have some combination of thos properties otherwise all your using is a Target Painter because your strait Laser is by common opinion is a laser pointer you can buy for $5 in a corner store :P
Also don't compare these to Hybris as a railgun (or i am assuming a blaster as they function similar ingame) requires a projectile suspended in a plasma field which is then fired at the target after charged.
Now i am sure someone will point out inconsistancies. Its been about 2 years since i looked up subjects in this area... that and i have probobly played too many video games for my own good
I use refferences to RL predicted weapons as right now if you went by RL current weapons you would be flying an apocolypse with a Chemical Laser that uses about 100+ gallons of chemicals to burn a quarter sized hole in an M1 tank at 2km... I would like to see that used for space battles :P
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:59:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 19:02:22
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth Ok let me straiten a few things up lol. Protons are not neutral... they are positivly charged. Now one thing in EVE is that lasers are not specific as to what type of laser... Is it an Ion Beam, Particle Beam, Proton Beam, Neutron Beam, ect...
Er.. What are you referring that to - I never said that. Did you misread This is mainly because the particles lasers shoot (aka photons) are neutral? I said photons, not protons .
And about the "type of laser"..there is only one type. Laser = Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation. A weapon which shoots particles (ions, protons, neutrons) is per definition not a laser but a particle weapons.
Edit: I just noted that I called photons particels in my previous post. Make that "particles". Thats not the right definition for them, but the correct one escapes me atm.
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
Originally by: Aramendel
Energy weapon is not = energy weapon. You could imagine weapons like an antiproton accellerator having these effects, but not lasers. This is mainly because the particles lasers shoot (aka photons) are neutral. Electrical current cannot travel over longer distances in space, a vaccuum is a very good insulator. Given suffecient power an eletrical current can jump over a distance, but this distance is rather small the the power to make an current jump growths expotentially with increasing distance. The only real way it could jump from ship to ship would be using charged particles of a beam as bridge. Which, as said, lasers do not have. Ironically the closest weapon to that would be the Ion blasters from the hybrid blaster tree. Also, electromagnetic fields cannot damage physical objects. It certainly can fry electronics (and could destroy a ship if it fries the electronics of it's fusion reactor), but it would have no real effect of armor or structure.
From a RL viewpoint EVEs lasers are far less realistic than the other weapons.
Here is where i got that from :P
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:07:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Forsch the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:11:00 -
[68]
Eh... oh well My point still stands. I classify anything that creates a BEAM of energy as a Laser based weapon when the actual weapon type is not specific.
Now if you want to classify it as specificly laser i would have to ask. Solid State or Chemical? If Solid State then they need to eat up more juice to fire. If Chemical then they need a fuel of some form And if either they shouldn't be firing over 10km anyway
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Forsch the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
You think that's funny?
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:26:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Forsch the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
You think that's funny?
My explosive barrage ammo (aka "best ammo ever") sucks vs T2 Amarr, your EM crystals suck vs T2 Minmatar. I need to switch to thermal ammo, so do you.
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:27:00 -
[71]
Wow, look how my baby's grown!
@ Sarmaul: as was pointed out, most of the examples give to try and prove your "lasers work fine on half the setups out there" are pants. Every ship that has a tight cpu fits an EANM or three instead of the cpu hungey active hardeners. Anyone that fits EANMs has trained a couple levels of armor compensation. If they can use EANM IIs, you can count on the skills being at 4-5 for each type.
So your 10/19 figure is overall, but doesn't take into accout how common each setup is.
@ the "real physics" whiners: STFU! Is this the new way to derail any laser thread? Sure seems like it. Every laser/Amarr damage thread that comes up, someone tries to whine "but IRL lasers...blah...blah." It's a game and IRL physics are inspiration to make a balanced game. Talking about IRL laser physics is just a cheap way to derail a thread. And I think the guilty parties know it and do it on purpose. Start your own "real lasers" vs. "eve lasers" in General Discussion, and see who cares.
Bottom line is that EANMs + armor compensation skills have moved EM resistance away from their original balance point. I think the devs original idea was to make it so ex/kin/th only needed to be hardened to make fitting ships a bit easier. Letting lasers have a "free" shot at armor was the trade off for not having as many ship damage bonuses.
Tanking has changed with RMR, and lasers haven't kept up. I see five ways to fix this:
1) Balance the EM/thermal ratio of crystals. 2) Lower all ship EM resistance across the board. 3) Increase laser damage mods. 4) Add laser damage bonuses to all Amarr ships. 5) Create explosive crystals. --
Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:29:00 -
[72]
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:35:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Sarmaul The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo. --
Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:38:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
actually, that will be the worst ammo ever
From Dusk till Dawn |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:38:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 19:40:38
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth Eh... oh well My point still stands. I classify anything that creates a BEAM of energy as a Laser based weapon when the actual weapon type is not specific...
Sorry, to be a nitpick, but..
If anything you would classify that the Amarr are using beam weapons instead of lasers. Lasers are beam weapons, but not every beam weapon is a laser, so to speak. But the thing is: Amarr *are* using lasers. Simply because of the concept of frequency crystals - you can do this only with photons, you cannot shoot particle beams with an microwave or xray frequency, particle beams have no frequency at all. Only photons can do this due to them being both a wave and a particle.
@Kitty: Sorry about this, but I pointed out from the start that the EVE concept of lasers is quite unrealistic, so saying "exp damage from lasers is not realistic" is quite meaningless.
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Ather Ialeas
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Hear hear!
I'd quess it'd be something like 45%/35%/10%/10% across damage types though but still it'd be nice. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/ |
Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:40:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
@ the "real physics" whiners: STFU! Is this the new way to derail any laser thread? Sure seems like it. Every laser/Amarr damage thread that comes up, someone tries to whine "but IRL lasers...blah...blah." It's a game and IRL physics are inspiration to make a balanced game. Talking about IRL laser physics is just a cheap way to derail a thread. And I think the guilty parties know it and do it on purpose. Start your own "real lasers" vs. "eve lasers" in General Discussion, and see who cares.
LMFAO. I probobly deserved that. He started it *points at other poster*. I was just trying to back up my personal thoughts with the comparison as I gather it. I didn't mean to derail the thread.
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Bazman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:41:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Bazman on 01/06/2006 19:43:15
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Sarmauls 1400mm Howitzer perfectly strikes you, wrecking for 12,000 Damage
No thanks
oh, all 4 damage types you mean? Darn, my snappy comeback has been foiled! -----
Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:43:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Bazman
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Sarmauls 1400mm Howitzer perfectly strikes you, wrecking for 12,000 Damage
No thanks
I don't think he meant quad damage as in the quake powerup
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:43:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth Eh... oh well My point still stands. I classify anything that creates a BEAM of energy as a Laser based weapon when the actual weapon type is not specific...
Sorry, to be a nitpick, but..
If anything you would classify that the Amarr are using beam weapons instead of lasers. Lasers are beam weapons, but not every beam weapon is a laser, so to speak. But the thing is: Amarr *are* using lasers. Simply because of the concept of frequency crystals - you can do this only with photons, you cannot shoot particle beams with an microwave or xray frequency, particle beams have no frequency at all. Only photons can do this due to them being both a wave and a particle.
Ok then... CCP needs to rewrite all the Amarrian weapons discriptions to reflect this and make it clear
Just my thought process has 4 major catagories i rate things in. BEAM, Energy (Plasma/Hybrid/energy pulse), Projectile, Missle. So when i think Laser without a specific refference to what TYPE of laser i usually generalize between all of them :P
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:43:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
explain to me how being able to do pitiful amounts of all 4 damage types is as good as amarr getting the ability to tear through tanks like nothing on earth. with a 2 second reload time you can strip shields with one, change ammo, and *****armour with the explosive crystals.
the reason projectile ammo is good is because each ammo has a bais to a certain damage type which can be used to target that weakness. doing all 4 damage times in equal amounts is pointless, as 3/4 of the ammo will be resisted well.
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Bazman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:44:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Bazman
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Sarmauls 1400mm Howitzer perfectly strikes you, wrecking for 12,000 Damage
No thanks
I don't think he meant quad damage as in the quake powerup
Check edit :P -----
Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:44:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth LMFAO. I probobly deserved that. He started it *points at other poster*. I was just trying to back up my personal thoughts with the comparison as I gather it. I didn't mean to derail the thread.
Actually it started with your "when you think about it" comment But lets stop this. That particular sub-discussion is finished.
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:45:00 -
[84]
Well, getting exposive crystals are the last thing on my list. I'd rather see one of the other four happen first.
@ Exavier Macbeth: NP, thought you guys needed a nudge. --
Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay Well, getting exposive crystals are the last thing on my list. I'd rather see one of the other four happen first.
@ Exavier Macbeth: NP, thought you guys needed a nudge.
hehe. But on the issue I think that close range crystals should give more thermal then EM while the longer ones should still give more EM. As per my views already stated.
And no i don't use lasers on a regular basis. I am one of those ppl who do love their minmatar ships. I can only fly Amarrian ships and use Lasers because a friend decided to train them on me during a 3 month absence from the game. So i played with them off and on after that :P
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:58:00 -
[86]
DPS calculations are based on zero resistance to the damage, making Amarr "DPS" against armor quite low.
Noob.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:04:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Sarmaul My explosive barrage ammo (aka "best ammo ever") sucks vs T2 Amarr, your EM crystals suck vs T2 Minmatar. I need to switch to thermal ammo, so do you.
That's just as wrong. Projectiles should be the best against Amarr ships. At least you can switch to phased plasma.
Originally by: Sarmaul with a 2 second reload time you can strip shields with one, change ammo, and *****armour with the explosive crystals.
Like stripping shields with barrage would take long.. Most armor tanks have pitiful shields.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:05:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Forsch the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
You think that's funny?
Vagabond can loose to a zealot... so I too think its funny.
Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Vera Nosfyu
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:15:00 -
[89]
Personally, despite being a Minmatar pilot, I would like to see ay least one crystal with a higher thermal than EM damage. It'd add more versatility to the Amarr, make things more interesting. However, by the same token hybrids would need to be given a high thermal charge, too, to keep things balanced. -----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:18:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Sarmaul My explosive barrage ammo (aka "best ammo ever") sucks vs T2 Amarr, your EM crystals suck vs T2 Minmatar. I need to switch to thermal ammo, so do you.
That's just as wrong. Projectiles should be the best against Amarr ships. At least you can switch to phased plasma.
Why... the game was built while the empires were at peace. They need to be balanced between the 4 races not 2 on 2.
Quote:
Originally by: Sarmaul with a 2 second reload time you can strip shields with one, change ammo, and *****armour with the explosive crystals.
Like stripping shields with barrage would take long.. Most armor tanks have pitiful shields.
yeah... ever tried shooting Quake or Tremmor? Maybe in 1 on 1 reloads aren't important... but when was the last time you had a streak of 1 on 1s on TQ?
Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
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