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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.01 10:14:00 -
[1]
There's been a lot of debate about Amarr damage lately. More specifically, laser damage, and the problems of having EM as primary damage type. First let's start with comparing the medium frequency crystals with hybrid charges. Ranges match exactly, but some of the damage ratios are a little off.
(All nubers give using M sized ammo, since I think most people are familiar with cruiser guns.)
Frequency Crystals EM/Thermal (range)
Multifrequency M: 14/10 (50%)
Gamma M: 14/8 (62.5%)
Xray M: 12/8 (75%)
Ultraviolet M: 12/6 (87.5%)
Standard M: 10/6 (100%)
Infrared M: 10/4 (120%)
Microwave M: 8/4 (140%)
Radio M: 10/0 (160%)
Hybrid Charges Kinetic/Thermal (range):
Antimatter M: 14/10 (50%)
Plutonium M: 12/10 (63.5%)
Uranium M: 12/8 (75%)
Thorium M: 10/8 (87.5%)
Lead M: 10/6 (100%)
Iridium M: 8/6 (120%)
Tungsten M: 8/4 (140%)
Iron M: 6/4 (160%)
The most glaring examples are Gamma (14/8) vs. Plutonium(12/10), Ultraviolet (12/6) vs. Thorium (10/8), and Radio (10/0) vs. Iron (6/4). These crystals are too EM heavy when compared to the kinetic damage of hybrid ammo. This is only the tip of the iceberg.
The biggest problem with a weapon system that is primarily EM damage is that all armor has at least 60% EM resistance. I've made a spreadsheet with average EM and thermal resistances applied to both lasers and hybrids. You can get it here.
Basically, by changing the ratio of EM to thermal damage, lasers can be drastically improved. Looking at my proposed changes, the EM reduction seems quite drastic, but it takes into the reality of shield resistances, while increasing armor damage to be in line with hybrids.
Lasers would still slightly outdo hybrids on sheilds, and would be do a bit less than hybrids on armor, which seems balanced to me.
Also, to answer the RP idea of "Amarr = EM" and "Gallente = Thermal" it would seem that Gallente is mostly kinetic in their blaster and railgun use, just look at the ammo! So giving lasers more thermal and reducing EM wouldn't be taking anything away from the Gallente. Each race would still keep their own drones, etc.
Also, changing the EM/thermal ratio of frequency crystals would be a "simple" database operation, and wouldn't require the creation of new items. (Like adding an explosive crystal would.) It would simply be a balancing adjustment to reflect the realities of the "passive resistance generation" that came with the RMR armor compensation skills.
As Tux would say, "well, I could always reduce the EM armor resistance across the board." Personally I'd rather see crystals changed.
If nothing else, this should give you something to talk about while I sleep! \o/
PS, I've already uploaded the chart, but would consider that the standard crystal remain EM heavy, for use when you want more EM damage. Maybe give them a slight boost to 12/5.
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Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Deadeye Dave
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:02:00 -
[2]
Well thought out arguement, good reasoning and something that will help boost Lasers just enough to be inline with the other weapon types by just changing the ratio of EM to Thermal damage.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:07:00 -
[3]
When they reduce the damage modifier and RoF on your guns, then you can have better damage types. At the moment, Amarr DPS is far, far high above everyone else's DPS. Change their damage types to be "better" and you'll break them absolutely.
Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 24/05/06!
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:10:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Testy Mctest
When they reduce the damage modifier and RoF on your guns, then you can have better damage types. At the moment, Amarr DPS is far, far high above everyone else's DPS. Change their damage types to be "better" and you'll break them absolutely.
You are clueless.
-
_____
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:07:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 01/06/2006 12:07:53
1. Vs unhardened standard T1 shields:
EM: 0%
TH: 20%
KI: 40%
EX: 60%
EM is the lowest resist, followed by thermal.
2. Vs tri-hardened standard T1 shields
EM: 55%
EX: 60%
TH: 64%
KI: 73%
EM is the weakest resist, with thermal the third weakest resist.
3. Vs twin-Invul standard T1 shields
EM: 48.25%
TH: 58.6%
KI: 68.95%
EX: 79.3%
Again, EM is the weakest resist, although this time thermal has moved up to the second weakest resist.
4. Vs EM + Invul T1 shields
TH: 44%
KI: 48%
EM: 66.73%
EX: 72%
The weakest resist here is thermal, and that's only because the tank has been specifically designed to counter lasers, leaving it incredibly vulnerable to blasters or thermal crystals. You can't have it all.
5. Vs unhardened Amarr T2 shields
EM: 0%
TH: 20%
KI: 70%
EX: 90%
EM is the lowest resist, followed by thermal. I won't do a hardened amarr t2 ship as nobody shield tanks them.
6. Vs unhardened Gallente T2 shields
EM: 0%
EX: 60%
TH: 60%
KI: 85%
EM is again the lowest, with thermal and explosive tied for second. No tanked resists as nobody does it on gallente shields.
7. Vs unhardened Caldari T2 shields
EM: 0%
EX: 60%
KI: 70%
TH: 80%
EM is the lowest, with thermal as the highest as it is also the primary damage type for Gallente (which is another reason why it won't become the primary damage type of lasers).
8. Vs EM hardened Caldari T2 shields
EM: 55%
EX: 60%
KI: 70%
TH: 80%
The ordering is still the same, with EM as the weakest and thermal as the highest.
9. Vs EM + Invul hardened Caldari T2 shields
EM: 66.75%
EX: 72%
KI: 79%
TH: 86.25%
Nothing changed.
10. Vs unhardened Minmatar T2 shields
KI: 40%
EX: 60%
TH: 60%
EM: 75%
Much like minmatar's primary damage types (explosive, then kinetic) suck against Amarr t2 resists, Lasers suck against Minmatar t2 resists. The only hardeners people ever fit on minny shields are kinetic ones (which wouldn't change the EM/TH balance) and invul fields (same thing) so I won't bother with the figures.
11. Vs unhardened standard T1 armour
EX: 10%
KI: 25%
TH: 35%
EM: 60%
Thermal is third, EM is forth. Although it has to be said that anyone running around with unhardened armour is either shield tanking and is on his way to dying very quickly, or is sniping and won't have a tank anyway. The exception to this of course is interceptors who generally fit plates instead of hardeners. Boohoo, lasers can't kill ceptors as quick as projeciles and hybrids can 
12. Vs tri-hardened standard T1 armour
EX: 59.5%
EM: 60%
KI: 66.25%
TH: 70.75%
Oh look, vs standard armour tank resists EM is almost tied first with explosive as the lowest resist (0.5% in it).
13. Vs twin-EANM hardened standard T1 armour
EX: 47.17%
KI: 55.97%
TH: 61.81%
EM: 76.52%
Same ratios as unhardened armour as EANMs increase each resist equally.
14. Vs unhardened Amarr T2 armour
TH: 35%
EM: 60%
KI: 62.5%
EX: 80%
Thermal has the lowest, followed by EM. However, seeing no amarr ship would be right without a tank:
15. Vs TH + EANM hardened Amarr T2 armour
EM: 70%
KI: 71.88%
TH: 78.06%
EX: 85%
Oh look, EM is the weakest. You can keep fitting EANM but the rations will be the same.
16. Vs unhardened Gallente T2 armour
EX: 10%
EM: 60%
TH: 67.5%
KI: 83.75%
EM is the second weakest, thermal is the third.
17. Vs EX + EANM hardened Gallente T2 armour
EX: 69.63%
EM: 70%
TH: 75.63%
KI: 87.81%
Same ratio, although EM is less than 1% away from being the lowest.
18. Vs unhardened Minmatar T2 armour
EX: 10%
KI: 25%
TH: 67.5%
EM: 92.5%
Hahahahahahahahaha!!
/emote hugs his Muninn.
19. Vs EX + KI hardened Minmatar T2 armour
EX: 59.5%
KI: 66.26%
TH: 67.5%
EM: 92.5%
No change.
Result
Out of the 19 most common configs, EM was the lowest 9 times, as was lower than thermal 12 times. So please, remind me, why is having EM as your primary damage so bad again?
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:10:00 -
[6]
and yes I know I'm sad for working all that out
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:15:00 -
[7]
No lasers are perfectly fine, everyone hardens armor for explosive/kinetic/thermal so unless someone is specifically setting up to fight lasers EM ends up being the lowest resist because it is usually left alone at 60%.
Besides Lasers are better for knocking out shields and there are plenty of people out there that shield tank instead of armor tank. When your fighting someone you'll obviously want to be doing more dammage to whatever they are using to tank.
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General Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:20:00 -
[8]
You got all the damage types on your ammo so your looong post is usless. Now be silent - if u can.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:21:00 -
[9]
Edited by: KilROCK on 01/06/2006 12:21:19
Originally by: General Apocalypse
You got all the damage types on your ammo so your looong post is usless. Now be silent - if u can.
Clueless 
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: General Apocalypse
You got all the damage types on your ammo so your looong post is usless. Now be silent - if u can.
who cares? the point is that EM damage is one of the weakest resistances, so more EM = more damage. Except vs minmatar of course
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Hast
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: General Apocalypse
You got all the damage types on your ammo so your looong post is usless. Now be silent - if u can.
who cares? the point is that EM damage is one of the weakest resistances, so more EM = more damage. Except vs minmatar of course
ownzor ♥
Originally by: Sarmaul
I WILL FIREBOMB CCP IF MINMATAR GET A T2 BATTLECRUISER WITH A ******* TARGET PAINTING BONUS
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:33:00 -
[12]
EM damage has been made worthless by one single change: the Energized Adaptive Nano boost.
Now that everyone uses EAN2s, EM is always their strongest resist.
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:36:00 -
[13]
Edited by: dalman on 01/06/2006 12:40:34
And what exactly is the problem? :s
Only thing I rly see is for fleet battle, where ppl add a plate to their battleships... Which might change quite a bit if we get a 3rd tier caldari railgun boat where ppl slap on 1-2 invulnerability fields instead...
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Now that everyone uses EAN2s, EM is always their strongest resist.
What the heck? You've re-fitted my ship during downtime? h4x!!
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sarmaul
18. Vs unhardened Minmatar T2 armour
EX: 10%
KI: 25%
TH: 67.5%
EM: 92.5%
Hahahahahahahahaha!!
/emote hugs his Muninn.
that made me laugh a lot  <3
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:41:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Gariuys on 01/06/2006 12:42:12
Originally by: Dark Shikari
EM damage has been made worthless by one single change: the Energized Adaptive Nano boost.
Now that everyone uses EAN2s, EM is always their strongest resist.
And everyone does that? Doubt it, it's a lot more common now that's true, but that's only cause sacrificing expl resist for em is well worth it cause of the amount of EM you come across vs the amount of explosive.
Oh and you're still pretty well off using EM against everything I fly, it's either my weakest, or second weakest resist, no matter what I fly.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
EM damage has been made worthless by one single change: the Energized Adaptive Nano boost.
Now that everyone uses EAN2s, EM is always their strongest resist.
i fly amarr
i like that we do lots of EM
yes the invols kicked our asses a lot on armor tanking
but u stil get ppl that dont use 3x invol over 3x 50% hardeners, before lasers where best vs shields and armor now they are best VS shields! seems ok to me
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:42:00 -
[17]
Amarr are shield killers and good against armor. They are fine as they are now.
**Ship lovers click here** |
Hey You
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:51:00 -
[18]
Eh. I think it shouldn't be changed ALOT more. Just a bit. Like 4 points of EM to Thermal on Multifreq L. Like DS said, I think the MAJORITY of people, especially high skilled people since EANM2s give them better resists with 3 EANM2s over 3 hardners, use EANM2s. And I'd be honestly surprised if Amarr had the most DPS in the game. Compare Zealot with the Cerebus, or Deimos. Or the Megapulse geddon with a Neutron II geddon.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:53:00 -
[19]
Each ammo should have close to 60% primary and 40% secondary. With the short range crystals, this is more or less true. With Radio... Let's just say it's got a wee bit too high EM ratio.
That's all.
New sig coming soonÖ
In the next (content) patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with. |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hey You
Compare Zealot with the Cerebus, or Deimos. Or the Megapulse geddon with a Neutron II geddon.
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:03:00 -
[21]
I use this sheet ingame:
Hybrids
Iron.............- +60%.....- 12 Kin, 8 TH
Tungsten.........- +40%.....- 16 Kin, 8 TH
Iridium..........- +20%.....- 16 Kin, 12 TH
Lead.............- +/-0%....- 20 Kin, 12 TH
Thorium..........- -12,5%...- 20 Kin, 16 TH
Uranium..........- -25%.....- 24 Kin, 16 TH
Plutonium........- -37,5%...- 24 Kin, 20 TH
Antimatter.......- -50%.....- 28 Kin, 20 TH
--------------
Projectiles
Carbonized Lead..- +60%.....- 12 Ex, 12 Kin
Nuclear..........- +40%.....- 20 Ex, 8 Kin
Proton...........- +20%.....- 12 EM, 16 Kin
Depleted Uranium.- +/-0%....- 12 Ex, 12 Kin, 8 TH
Titanium Sabot...- -12,5%...- 12 Ex, 25 Kin
Fusion...........- -25%.....- 32 Ex, 8 Kin
Phased Plasma....- -37,5%...- 8 Kin, 32 TH
EMP..............- -50%.....- 20 EM, 16 EX, 8 Kin
--------------
Lasers
Radio............- +60%.....- 20 EM
Mirco............- +40%.....- 16 EM, 8 TH
Infrared.........- +20%.....- 20 EM, 8 TH
Standard.........- +/-0%....- 20 EM, 12 TH
Ultraviolet......- -12,5%...- 24 EM, 12 TH
XRay.............- -25%.....- 24 EM, 16 TH
Gamma............- -37,5%...- 28 EM, 16 TH
Multi............- -50%.....- 28 EM, 20 TH
**Ship lovers click here** |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hey You
Eh. I think it shouldn't be changed ALOT more. Just a bit. Like 4 points of EM to Thermal on Multifreq L. Like DS said, I think the MAJORITY of people, especially high skilled people since EANM2s give them better resists with 3 EANM2s over 3 hardners, use EANM2s. And I'd be honestly surprised if Amarr had the most DPS in the game. Compare Zealot with the Cerebus, or Deimos. Or the Megapulse geddon with a Neutron II geddon.
You would be, and no it's not true they don't have highest... blasters have ever so slightly more, at 15% of lasers range, but we still got 5% more damage.... so it's all good.
Funny example, Zealot, 3d most damaging HAC in game... after deimos and ishtar ( when it fits guns that is )
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Beowulf Scheafer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Hey You
Eh. I think it shouldn't be changed ALOT more. Just a bit. Like 4 points of EM to Thermal on Multifreq L. Like DS said, I think the MAJORITY of people, especially high skilled people since EANM2s give them better resists with 3 EANM2s over 3 hardners, use EANM2s. And I'd be honestly surprised if Amarr had the most DPS in the game. Compare Zealot with the Cerebus, or Deimos. Or the Megapulse geddon with a Neutron II geddon.
You would be, and no it's not true they don't have highest... blasters have ever so slightly more, at 15% of lasers range, but we still got 5% more damage.... so it's all good.
Funny example, Zealot, 3d most damaging HAC in game... after deimos and ishtar ( when it fits guns that is )
AND a zealot does it with just 4 turrets, not 5 a deimos does...
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Godar Marak
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gariuys
Funny example, Zealot, 3d most damaging HAC in game... after deimos and ishtar ( when it fits guns that is )
Never herd of a zealot that can deal damage without guns fitted
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hey You
Eh. I think it shouldn't be changed ALOT more. Just a bit. Like 4 points of EM to Thermal on Multifreq L. Like DS said, I think the MAJORITY of people, especially high skilled people since EANM2s give them better resists with 3 EANM2s over 3 hardners, use EANM2s. And I'd be honestly surprised if Amarr had the most DPS in the game. Compare Zealot with the Cerebus, or Deimos. Or the Megapulse geddon with a Neutron II geddon.
Well gessing u mean cerberus...
But Cerberus most damaging hac? 
With 3 dmg mod T2 and evry skill maxed (heavy 5 spe heavy 5 rapid launch 5 missile operation 5 heavy assault 5) according im using T1 missiles (u used for ur stat T1 ammo) and T2 launcher...
I can have an AMAZING 304.5 DPS
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Gariuys
Funny example, Zealot, 3d most damaging HAC in game... after deimos and ishtar ( when it fits guns that is )
Never herd of a zealot that can deal damage without guns fitted
and thats the reason why you go to school: To learn reading!
Quote:
Ishtar (when it fits guns that is)
What can we see? The word Ishtar followed by the an addition in exclamation marks. What could it mean? Maybe that he talks about the Ishtar?
From Dusk till Dawn |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:30:00 -
[27]
Arent optimal and falloff of energy >> hybrids? If they change crystals, can we change their optimal and falloff too?
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Arent optimal and falloff of energy >> hybrids? If they change crystals, can we change their optimal and falloff too?
Nah, Lasers have second best optimal and worst falloff. Therefor they get more DPS, tracking and built in damage bonus.
From Dusk till Dawn |
Centurin
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:40:00 -
[29]
People still use lasers on ships other than geddon and apoc? Will wonders never cease....
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Frools
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:44:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Frools on 01/06/2006 13:45:25
Originally by: Gariuys
You would be, and no it's not true they don't have highest... blasters have ever so slightly more, at 15% of lasers range, but we still got 5% more damage.... so it's all good.
5%? even heavy electrons outdamage heavy pulse..
and its about 50% of the range not 15% when using closest range ammo
i think i did the maths right here but feel free to correct me if i didnt
(im doing this for cruiser sized guns as imo thats where amarr struggle the most)
neutron II outdamages heavy pulse II by 16%
ion II outdamages heavy pulse II by 9%
electron II outdamages heavy pulse II by 2%
neutron outdamages focused pulse II by 35%
ion II outdamages focused pulse II by 26%
electron II outdamages focused pulse II by 18%
dont get me wrong, i dont think pulses should be outdamaging blasters and tbh i think the only thing that needs to be looked at on the guns themselves maybe is the grid use of heavy pulses and perhaps a slight damage increase for focuseds
but the omen and maller need grid, way more grid, unless heavy pulse grid use is reduced massively
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:46:00 -
[31]
This would be a small boost to Caldari, so I like it :)
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:09:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 14:09:20
2 things:
- "shortrange" lasers have in general an higher range than shortrange projectiles or hybrids, yes. But the thing is - is this range even used? How many battles are there at 20-30 km? Most of shortrange PvP happens at 1-15 km.
- and, contrary to popular opinion (Hello, Testy!), not every Amarr ship has a laser damage & ROF bonus. A good amount of them has only a (at shipskill lvl 5) 50% cap reduction for lasers and thats it. Is it "ok" for those that they deal crap damage? The laser cap reduction bonus for those ships is essentially wasted because they can achieve similar dps with projectiles and have a better tank.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:18:00 -
[33]
Lmao, sure, just for kicks, show how you can get similair damage from 1400s on a apoc, as you can from megabeams, using the same number of damage mods... ( and not you can't use EMP, cause that's lotsa EM damage as well, and that was bad.... right? )
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Nedia
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:25:00 -
[34]
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:31:00 -
[35]
I fully agree that 21 days old characters should do the balancing of battleships in this game.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Epsilon 1
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:36:00 -
[36]
Amarr went down the toilet right after RMR Apoc is a useless ship except for longrange fleet. Those who still fly amarr are either: roleplaying or really like disco lights 
ps: tier 3 amarr bs will be a 2nd apoc
Originally by: Steven Gerrard
Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
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PriceCheckMax
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:39:00 -
[37]
Edited by: PriceCheckMax on 01/06/2006 14:41:19
Didn't the problem come with the resistance boost skills that affect passive harderners? Energized apative nano t2s are now better than harderners.
Besides, there are far more PvP setups who armortank. Even the medslot-heavy caldaris tend to have ecm and armortank(sort of) instead of shieldtank nowdays.
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:47:00 -
[38]
Your proposed changes look about what lasers did damage type wise before TomB's nerfbat fell on them. Though i do agree some of the damage types are a little off in a realistic sense.
If you think about it the longer the range through space the less Thermal energy there will be left in the beam.
However on that same thought i would have to agree that the closer range crystals should do more Thermal damage than EM due to it being a closer range.
Also from a balance point of view lasers atm have better dps then every other weapon in the game and on top of that its a sustained dps uninterupted by weapon reloads. Where as the minmatar gets a Burst Fire (same true for the caldari missles in a sense) and the gallante get somewhere in between.
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:59:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Tassi on 01/06/2006 15:01:38
haha at the minnies posting stuff
and now, factor EANM t2 + dmg control tanks into the equation please.
oh yeah, fighting minmatar t2 resists on every armor tank is pretty good for amarr dps
EDIT: heat sink stacking nerf + passive tanking boost hitted us hard 
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:06:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 15:11:18
Originally by: dalman
I fully agree that 21 days old characters should do the balancing of battleships in this game.
Thank you. Btw, for the record, I played the game for 8 months, quit, gave my account to an ingame friend and restarted recently. Does this qualify me for the discussion, mr. High and Mighty?
Also, what has this to do with BSs? Last time I checked all ship types can use lasers.
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
If you think about it the longer the range through space the less Thermal energy there will be left in the beam.
Well, from a whole realistic viewpoint the whole laser thing is humbug really, because there is no such thing like EM damage from lasers. If you would make them realistic they would deal only thermal damage.
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:20:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: dalman
I fully agree that 21 days old characters should do the balancing of battleships in this game.
Thank you. Btw, for the record, I played the game for 8 months, quit, gave my account to an ingame friend and restarted recently. Does this qualify me for the discussion, mr. High and Mighty?
Also, what has this to do with BSs? Last time I checked all ship types can use lasers.
Can you please show me the small "short range" weapon that has 30km range plz, as that's what you were talking about.
And no, you're still not qualified because your post was a complete joke.
But sure, go change your damagetype to Thermal instead of EM...
Better for me in my solo BS? Yea.
Better for me in my T2 ship? Yea.
Better for me in my fleet ship? Yea, when I get my Caldari railboat.
Do it
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Exavier Macbeth
|
Posted - 2006.06.01 15:21:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 15:11:18
Originally by: dalman
I fully agree that 21 days old characters should do the balancing of battleships in this game.
Thank you. Btw, for the record, I played the game for 8 months, quit, gave my account to an ingame friend and restarted recently. Does this qualify me for the discussion, mr. High and Mighty?
Also, what has this to do with BSs? Last time I checked all ship types can use lasers.
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
If you think about it the longer the range through space the less Thermal energy there will be left in the beam.
Well, from a whole realistic viewpoint the whole laser thing is humbug really, because there is no such thing like EM damage from lasers. If you would make them realistic they would deal only thermal damage.
Not nessiserily... EM damage does not nessiserrily mean EMP from nuclear explosion effect. It could simply mean a static electricity discharge which high powered lasers would give off due to the fact that they are energy based weaponry.
To the person who is laughing cause Minmatars are posting does it matter? I have been playing 3 years and can fly all 4 races Tech 1 ships. I have played with all the weapon systems. And i would actually support a little adjustment to the closer range crystals. Granted i don't feel the longer ranged damage should be mostly thermal anyway but that has to do with my own personal thoughts about energy based weapons :P
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Wheya
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:28:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Wheya on 01/06/2006 15:31:17
Sarmaul, thank you very much for working that out. I have planned to do something similar but I was too lazy.
I copy and past your post. My remarks
1. Vs unhardened standard T1 shields:
EM: 0%
TH: 20%
KI: 40%
EX: 60%
EM is the lowest resist, followed by thermal.
someone using unhardened shields will most likely use an armor tank. Your argument is pointless)
2. Vs tri-hardened standard T1 shields
EM: 55%
EX: 60%
TH: 64%
KI: 73%
EM is the weakest resist, with thermal the third weakest resist.
3. Vs twin-Invul standard T1 shields
EM: 48.25%
TH: 58.6%
KI: 68.95%
EX: 79.3%
Again, EM is the weakest resist, although this time thermal has moved up to the second weakest resist.
4. Vs EM + Invul T1 shields
TH: 44%
KI: 48%
EM: 66.73%
EX: 72%
The weakest resist here is thermal, and that's only because the tank has been specifically designed to counter lasers, leaving it incredibly vulnerable to blasters or thermal crystals. You can't have it all.
5. Vs unhardened Amarr T2 shields
EM: 0%
TH: 20%
KI: 70%
EX: 90%
EM is the lowest resist, followed by thermal. I won't do a hardened amarr t2 ship as nobody shield tanks them.
Your argument is pointless)
6. Vs unhardened Gallente T2 shields
EM: 0%
EX: 60%
TH: 60%
KI: 85%
EM is again the lowest, with thermal and explosive tied for second. No tanked resists as nobody does it on gallente shields.
Your argument is pointless)
7. Vs unhardened Caldari T2 shields
EM: 0%
EX: 60%
KI: 70%
TH: 80%
EM is the lowest, with thermal as the highest as it is also the primary damage type for Gallente (which is another reason why it won't become the primary damage type of lasers).
somone using unhardened shields will most likely use an armor tank. Of course Caldari most likely will use an hardened shield tank as seen in 8 and 9. Your argument is pointless)
8. Vs EM hardened Caldari T2 shields
EM: 55%
EX: 60%
KI: 70%
TH: 80%
The ordering is still the same, with EM as the weakest and thermal as the highest.
9. Vs EM + Invul hardened Caldari T2 shields
EM: 66.75%
EX: 72%
KI: 79%
TH: 86.25%
Nothing changed.
10. Vs unhardened Minmatar T2 shields
KI: 40%
EX: 60%
TH: 60%
EM: 75%
Much like minmatar's primary damage types (explosive, then kinetic) suck against Amarr t2 resists, Lasers suck against Minmatar t2 resists. The only hardeners people ever fit on minny shields are kinetic ones (which wouldn't change the EM/TH balance) and invul fields (same thing) so I won't bother with the figures.
somone using unhardened shields will most likely use an armor tank but a hardened Minmatar t2 shield tank is a very valid option as you have said.
11. Vs unhardened standard T1 armour
EX: 10%
KI: 25%
TH: 35%
EM: 60%
Thermal is third, EM is forth. Although it has to be said that anyone running around with unhardened armour is either shield tanking and is on his way to dying very quickly, or is sniping and won't have a tank anyway. The exception to this of course is interceptors who generally fit plates instead of hardeners. Boohoo, lasers can't kill ceptors as quick as projeciles and hybrids can
12. Vs tri-hardened standard T1 armour
EX: 59.5%
EM: 60%
KI: 66.25%
TH: 70.75%
Oh look, vs standard armour tank resists EM is almost tied first with explosive as the lowest resist (0.5% in it).
Yes, this is how it was in the past. With the introduction of armor compensation skills only noobs will use such a fitting today. Pointless argument
13. Vs twin-EANM hardened standard T1 armour
EX: 47.17%
KI: 55.97%
TH: 61.81%
EM: 76.52%
Same ratios as unhardened armour as EANMs increase each resist equally.
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Wheya
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Wheya on 01/06/2006 15:32:11
13b. Vs tripple-EANM hardened standard T1 armour
EX: 58.47%
KI: 61.06%
TH: 66.25%
EM: 79.23%
Same ratios as unhardened armour as EANMs increase each resist equally.
This fitting replaced number 12, tri-hardened standard T1 armour and is most likely the mostly used way of tanking.
14. Vs unhardened Amarr T2 armour
TH: 35%
EM: 60%
KI: 62.5%
EX: 80%
Thermal has the lowest, followed by EM. However, seeing no amarr ship would be right without a tank:
pointless argument
15. Vs TH + EANM hardened Amarr T2 armour
EM: 70%
KI: 71.88%
TH: 78.06%
EX: 85%
Oh look, EM is the weakest. You can keep fitting EANM but the rations will be the same.
16. Vs unhardened Gallente T2 armour
EX: 10%
EM: 60%
TH: 67.5%
KI: 83.75%
EM is the second weakest, thermal is the third.
pointless argument
17. Vs EX + EANM hardened Gallente T2 armour
EX: 69.63%
EM: 70%
TH: 75.63%
KI: 87.81%
Same ratio, although EM is less than 1% away from being the lowest.
18. Vs unhardened Minmatar T2 armour
EX: 10%
KI: 25%
TH: 67.5%
EM: 92.5%
Hahahahahahahahaha!!
/emote hugs his Muninn.
if minnies fit hardeners then explosive and kinetic as in the example below
19. Vs EX + KI hardened Minmatar T2 armour
EX: 59.5%
KI: 66.26%
TH: 67.5%
EM: 92.5%
No change.
summery:
shield tanks:
1. unhardened t1 shields. pointless
2. tri-hardend t1 shield. lasers are the best option
3. twin-invul t1 shields. lasers are the best option
4. em + invul. hybrids are the best option
5. unhardened t2 amarr shields. pointless
6. unhardened gallente t2 shield. pointless
7. unhardened caladari t2 shields. pointless
8. em hardened caldari t2 shields. lasers are the best option
9. em + invul hardened caldari t2 shields. lasers are the best option
10. minmatar t2 shields would most likely fit kin/unvul hardeners. hybrids are the best option
4 out of 10 examples I consider as pointless. Of the remaining 6 examples lasers are 4 times the best option. 2 times hybrids are the better choice. Lasers are good against shields. How many ships fit shield tanks for PvP?
armor tanks:
11. unhardened t1 armor. ceptors with plates or BS fleet battles with 1600mm. lasers are by far the worst option
12. tri-hardened t1 armor. A relict from the past. pointless
13 +13b. lasers are by far the worst option same as in 11
14. unhardened amarr t2 armor. pointless
15. hardened amarr t2 armor. lasers are slightly better
16. unhardened gallente t2. pointless
17. hardened gallente t2 armor. laser are the best option
18 +19. minmatar t2 armor. hrmpf
18+19 I count as one. 3 out of 8 examples I consider as pointless. 11 + 13 + 13b could also be merged as one example and this is exactly the problem of lasers - the high em base resist on armor while most people use armor tanks for PvP whenever possible to have free med slots for tackling and ew. Dark Shikari's comment on EAN is spot on.
Lasers are fine against gallente and amarr t2 armor tanks as well as against caldari shield tanks. Doesn't sound too bad but...
if you encounter a Dominix, Megathron, Tempest, Typhoon, Armageddon, Apocalypse (and very often EW scorpion as well as most t1 cruisers and fregates) then you are better using something else than lasers.
Solution: Give armor and shield compensation skills a different task: Adding resistance without the need to fit passive modules.
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Rina Shanu
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:34:00 -
[45]
Besides all the discussion above... well... a discrete chane could be very beneficial and balancing. So please take a look 
RECRUITING |
PeopleDamager
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:35:00 -
[46]
minmatar have the lowest damage when it comes to comparing ammo types :(
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Lisento Slaven
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:46:00 -
[47]
Leave Amarr lasers the way they are right now...
I'm switching to a different races ships cause Amarr ships are ugly corpses with alien heads and lasers are crap. They get boring real fast =P
---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales! |
Degale
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:51:00 -
[48]
its a simple as this
if laser did more thermal damage then there would be more thermal damage dealers out there and more people would tank against thermal. then you would be doing even less damage.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.01 15:57:00 -
[49]
1) so lasers are fine against armour tanking amarr/gallente and shieldtanking caldari? geee horrible
2) sorry but i dont see cutting through a ,up to several thousands strong, hp buffer like butter as pointless
3) Amarr have highest dmg (inbuilt at that), which benefits them alittle against ships with dmg control ( same resistances across the board on structure )
alot of sniper battleships dont have the pg to fit a plate, or prefer not to fit one because of the reduced agility, in those cases it doesnt really matter what dmg type you do, and a plate increases your survivability for like 2-3 secs? hardly makes a case that lasers suck
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.06.01 16:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Epsilon 1
Amarr went down the toilet right after RMR Apoc is a useless ship except for longrange fleet. Those who still fly amarr are either: roleplaying or really like disco lights
ps: tier 3 amarr bs will be a 2nd apoc
Or they like the curse/pilgrim :)
nah it will be a big curse 
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 16:45:00 -
[51]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: dalman
I fully agree that 21 days old characters should do the balancing of battleships in this game.
Thank you. Btw, for the record, I played the game for 8 months, quit, gave my account to an ingame friend and restarted recently. Does this qualify me for the discussion, mr. High and Mighty?
Also, what has this to do with BSs? Last time I checked all ship types can use lasers.
Can you please show me the small "short range" weapon that has 30km range plz, as that's what you were talking about.
And no, you're still not qualified because your post was a complete joke.
But sure, go change your damagetype to Thermal instead of EM...
Better for me in my solo BS? Yea.
Better for me in my T2 ship? Yea.
Better for me in my fleet ship? Yea, when I get my Caldari railboat.
Do it
If you tell me how often you actually *use* a 30 km range (which, btw, you will not achive with multispectral). Thing is most PvP happens either in warp scramble range (aka *maximum* 20 km) or from long range (80 km+). What use is a "range advantage" which is never used? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here.
Also, if changing the thermal<->EM relation would actually make lasers worse, why then moaning about it? If pretty much every laser user would like it and it would give you only advantages it should be fine with you, shouldn't it?
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
Not nessiserily... EM damage does not nessiserrily mean EMP from nuclear explosion effect. It could simply mean a static electricity discharge which high powered lasers would give off due to the fact that they are energy based weaponry.
Energy weapon is not = energy weapon. You could imagine weapons like an antiproton accellerator having these effects, but not lasers. This is mainly because the particles lasers shoot (aka photons) are neutral. Electrical current cannot travel over longer distances in space, a vaccuum is a very good insulator. Given suffecient power an eletrical current can jump over a distance, but this distance is rather small the the power to make an current jump growths expotentially with increasing distance. The only real way it could jump from ship to ship would be using charged particles of a beam as bridge. Which, as said, lasers do not have. Ironically the closest weapon to that would be the Ion blasters from the hybrid blaster tree.
Also, electromagnetic fields cannot damage physical objects. It certainly can fry electronics (and could destroy a ship if it fries the electronics of it's fusion reactor), but it would have no real effect of armor or structure.
From a RL viewpoint EVEs lasers are far less realistic than the other weapons.
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Frezik
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Posted - 2006.06.01 17:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Wheya
Edited by: Wheya on 01/06/2006 15:31:17
Sarmaul, thank you very much for working that out. I have planned to do something similar but I was too lazy.
I copy and past your post. My remarks
blah blah
Is there a discount on strawmen this week?
----
"Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth |
dalman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 17:23:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Aramendel
If you tell me how often you actually *use* a 30 km range (which, btw, you will not achive with multispectral). Thing is most PvP happens either in warp scramble range (aka *maximum* 20 km) or from long range (80 km+). What use is a "range advantage" which is never used? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here.
Also, if changing the thermal<->EM relation would actually make lasers worse, why then moaning about it? If pretty much every laser user would like it and it would give you only advantages it should be fine with you, shouldn't it?
Well, there are 3 types of combat with battleships.
Fleet combat, which means 150km+ range.
Gang combat, which usually involves one gang jumping through a camped gate, which means 15-30km combat (and in this case pulse geddon = very good).
Solo combat, which means you end up at whatever range you web eachother at.
For the second part, you see, I want a fun game - which means diversity and balance.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Forsch
|
Posted - 2006.06.01 17:27:00 -
[54]
I gave up on lasers.
Please, nerf them even more. Thx.
Forsch
Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.01 17:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Forsch
I gave up on lasers.
Please, nerf them even more. Thx.
when did lasers get nerfed? shortly ago tachs got dmg boost
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
Forsch
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Posted - 2006.06.01 17:33:00 -
[56]
They got nerfed by other weapons getting boosted.
I don't care about Tachyons, I'm no battleship pilot.
Since the day that I realized that lasers are like the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr, it only got worse. Yeeha roleplay, CCP sure doesn't make it easy. 
Forsch
Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 17:38:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 17:39:49
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Aramendel
If you tell me how often you actually *use* a 30 km range (which, btw, you will not achive with multispectral). Thing is most PvP happens either in warp scramble range (aka *maximum* 20 km) or from long range (80 km+). What use is a "range advantage" which is never used? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here.
Also, if changing the thermal<->EM relation would actually make lasers worse, why then moaning about it? If pretty much every laser user would like it and it would give you only advantages it should be fine with you, shouldn't it?
Well, there are 3 types of combat with battleships.
Fleet combat, which means 150km+ range.
Gang combat, which usually involves one gang jumping through a camped gate, which means 15-30km combat (and in this case pulse geddon = very good).
Solo combat, which means you end up at whatever range you web eachother at.
For the second part, you see, I want a fun game - which means diversity and balance.
And wouldn't you say gatecamps are compared to the rest of EVEs PvP not exactly *that* a big activity field?
Also, the thing is that a blasterthron or an AC-tempest are not really much worse for gate camping and considerably better for solo PvP and fleet combat (nevermind the Apoc). Compared to other ships the Amarr simply lack diversity.
Originally by: Forsch
..Since the day that I realized that lasers are like the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr, it only got worse. Yeeha roleplay, CCP sure doesn't make it easy.
Well, yes and no. Against the racial npc enemies (aka Sansha and Blood Raiders) lasers are still the most effective weapons. Not against the minnies, though.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.06.01 17:41:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 01/06/2006 17:42:12
Why not drop armor EM resist to 50% and increase shield EM to 10%? 
(or better yet why not just freaking balance out armor and shield resists...)
------
FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Crellion
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Posted - 2006.06.01 17:44:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 15:11:18
Originally by: dalman
I fully agree that 21 days old characters should do the balancing of battleships in this game.
Thank you. Btw, for the record, I played the game for 8 months, quit, gave my account to an ingame friend and restarted recently. Does this qualify me for the discussion, mr. High and Mighty?
Also, what has this to do with BSs? Last time I checked all ship types can use lasers.
Ummm no it doesnt qualify you. I dont know what you did for 8 frigging months... I have been flying ammar for 4 days and I know that:
(a) 1-15 IS the range of Megapulses with Multis so your argument in the OP (about lasers doing 30 and pvp happening in 1-15 so they are no good) is ludicrous.
(b) Ceptor wise and AF you can hurt Hawks and Harpies with small lasers, and that it. Every other frig in game you are better off with proj or rails, and there is a lot of them.
(c) For reasons you can read in the forums the effective weapons wit laser usage atm sre: L pulse L beam (+med pulse Beam + pulse on Zealot only). Thats what he meant about BSs. Other effective ammar pvp set ups are by and large based on drones, nos, frig size guns etc.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.06.01 17:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 01/06/2006 17:42:12
Why not drop armor EM resist to 50% and increase shield EM to 10%?
(or better yet why not just freaking balance out armor and shield resists...)
How about no? :\
Maybe caldari shield resistance.............
How about 20% EM/ 40% explo/ 40% kinetic/ 20% thermal, bwahahah. Yea right
Armor stays same.
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Wheya
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:09:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Wheya on 01/06/2006 18:14:12
Originally by: Forsch
They got nerfed by other weapons getting boosted.
I have to disagree. The boost of blasters and some projectile longrange weapons was needed. For now I don't comment on the no cap use of projectiles as it will only have an effect in very special circumstances. This remains to be seen.
Lasers come with the highest raw base damage against unhardened targets and they have the best base tracking. This comes at the cost of higher energy consumption. The range of pulse lasers is also an advantage although you can't play that card with a 7-8 heatsink armageddon anymore but that was very badly needed. Once other shortrange weapon users manage to get into their optimal range then they have better tracking as well as better damage output, though. This is a game about webifiers and speed and that's fine. I do not complain. Autocannons and blasters must have this advantagee when it comes to very close range.
Most disadvantages of every weapon system get equalized by the ship bonusses. So far I have no reason to complain and most things seem to be more or less balanced.
I do not complain about raw laser damage output or laser tracking. I do not even complain¦about lasers doing em damage when it comes to short range - medium range combat. Radio crystals are for sure less effective when it comes to longrange combat.
The main reason to complain are energized adaptivee nano platings in combination with armor compensation skills. People used to have 3 active hardeners (thermal, kintic and explosive) to gain more or less equal armor resistance around 60% against all damage types. Today they can achieve the same with 3 EAN and get an additional 50% em boost to 80%-85% which significantly limits the damage output of lasers but not the damage output of other weapons. (EMP ammo has the same problem)
Lasers are fine, EM damage is fine, even EAN are not really the problem, armor compensation skills which boost EAN are the problem.
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:09:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Crellion
(a) 1-15 IS the range of Megapulses with Multis so your argument in the OP (about lasers doing 30 and pvp happening in 1-15 so they are no good) is ludicrous.
Reading comprehension? Dalman said 30km, I was only responding to him - and I actually said that he won't get that with multispectrals. And, no, I wouldn't really say 1-15 is the range you use magepules with multies with, considering they have the worst tracking of shortrange large turrets, it's more like 10-20 km. Closer and you loose effeciency.
Which IS good for shortrange combat, mind you, but point is that this is very close to the blasters and AC usual ranges of 5-15 km. The great range advantage of lasers which people often use to justify their reduced effeciency compared to ACs abd blasters isn't realyl there.
Quote:
(b) Ceptor wise and AF you can hurt Hawks and Harpies with small lasers, and that it. Every other frig in game you are better off with proj or rails, and there is a lot of them.
Your point being? That small lasers are relatively useless to small hybrids and projectiles?
Quote:
(c) For reasons you can read in the forums the effective weapons wit laser usage atm sre: L pulse L beam (+med pulse Beam + pulse on Zealot only). Thats what he meant about BSs. Other effective ammar pvp set ups are by and large based on drones, nos, frig size guns etc.
Dito. Isn't that in the end an argument that lasers need some fixing?
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Forsch
They got nerfed by other weapons getting boosted.
I don't care about Tachyons, I'm no battleship pilot.
Since the day that I realized that lasers are like the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr, it only got worse. Yeeha roleplay, CCP sure doesn't make it easy.
tachs are the only ones who got dmg boost, med blasters got easier fitting reqs, with tbh modest consequences
ac top tier get a higher clip size (there was no point fitting them compared to the next tier), they still have to reload tough unlike amarr
no cap for projectiles, 0 effect on arties, nice for ac's if you get nosed to death so you can keep atleast firing (i usually die pretty soon after my cap dies tough so..)
BUT the dmg of other weapon systems didnt get boosted so i dont see how lasers got worse off suddenly
what i agree on is that fitting reqs for some frigsized laser modules are too high, and that lasers are of an disadvantage in the inty game (60-70% standard resists+plates)
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:51:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Aramendel
Energy weapon is not = energy weapon. You could imagine weapons like an antiproton accellerator having these effects, but not lasers. This is mainly because the particles lasers shoot (aka photons) are neutral. Electrical current cannot travel over longer distances in space, a vaccuum is a very good insulator. Given suffecient power an eletrical current can jump over a distance, but this distance is rather small the the power to make an current jump growths expotentially with increasing distance. The only real way it could jump from ship to ship would be using charged particles of a beam as bridge. Which, as said, lasers do not have. Ironically the closest weapon to that would be the Ion blasters from the hybrid blaster tree.
Also, electromagnetic fields cannot damage physical objects. It certainly can fry electronics (and could destroy a ship if it fries the electronics of it's fusion reactor), but it would have no real effect of armor or structure.
From a RL viewpoint EVEs lasers are far less realistic than the other weapons.
Ok let me straiten a few things up lol. Protons are not neutral... they are positivly charged. Now one thing in EVE is that lasers are not specific as to what type of laser... Is it an Ion Beam, Particle Beam, Proton Beam, Neutron Beam, ect.
-Ion Beam is obvious... its going to flash fry any electrical based system as that is nothing more then an electrical charge.
-Proton Beam... Basicly a positivly charged beam cannon. Uses Protons instead of Electrons and focuses them on a target.
-Neutron Beam... Uses an excelerator system and then strips out the electrons and protons giving you a stream of neutrons which in theroy should pass through both shields and armor.
-A Laser weapon has to have some combination of thos properties otherwise all your using is a Target Painter because your strait Laser is by common opinion is a laser pointer you can buy for $5 in a corner store :P
Also don't compare these to Hybris as a railgun (or i am assuming a blaster as they function similar ingame) requires a projectile suspended in a plasma field which is then fired at the target after charged.
Now i am sure someone will point out inconsistancies. Its been about 2 years since i looked up subjects in this area... that and i have probobly played too many video games for my own good
I use refferences to RL predicted weapons as right now if you went by RL current weapons you would be flying an apocolypse with a Chemical Laser that uses about 100+ gallons of chemicals to burn a quarter sized hole in an M1 tank at 2km... I would like to see that used for space battles :P
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 18:59:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 19:02:22
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
Ok let me straiten a few things up lol. Protons are not neutral... they are positivly charged. Now one thing in EVE is that lasers are not specific as to what type of laser... Is it an Ion Beam, Particle Beam, Proton Beam, Neutron Beam, ect...
Er.. What are you referring that to - I never said that. Did you misread This is mainly because the particles lasers shoot (aka photons) are neutral? I said photons, not protons .
And about the "type of laser"..there is only one type. Laser = Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation. A weapon which shoots particles (ions, protons, neutrons) is per definition not a laser but a particle weapons.
Edit: I just noted that I called photons particels in my previous post. Make that "particles". Thats not the right definition for them, but the correct one escapes me atm.
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
Originally by: Aramendel
Energy weapon is not = energy weapon. You could imagine weapons like an antiproton accellerator having these effects, but not lasers. This is mainly because the particles lasers shoot (aka photons) are neutral. Electrical current cannot travel over longer distances in space, a vaccuum is a very good insulator. Given suffecient power an eletrical current can jump over a distance, but this distance is rather small the the power to make an current jump growths expotentially with increasing distance. The only real way it could jump from ship to ship would be using charged particles of a beam as bridge. Which, as said, lasers do not have. Ironically the closest weapon to that would be the Ion blasters from the hybrid blaster tree.
Also, electromagnetic fields cannot damage physical objects. It certainly can fry electronics (and could destroy a ship if it fries the electronics of it's fusion reactor), but it would have no real effect of armor or structure.
From a RL viewpoint EVEs lasers are far less realistic than the other weapons.
Here is where i got that from :P
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:07:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Forsch
the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:11:00 -
[68]
Eh... oh well
My point still stands. I classify anything that creates a BEAM of energy as a Laser based weapon when the actual weapon type is not specific.
Now if you want to classify it as specificly laser i would have to ask. Solid State or Chemical?
If Solid State then they need to eat up more juice to fire.
If Chemical then they need a fuel of some form
And if either they shouldn't be firing over 10km anyway
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Forsch
the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
You think that's funny? 
Forsch
Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:26:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Forsch
the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
You think that's funny?
My explosive barrage ammo (aka "best ammo ever") sucks vs T2 Amarr, your EM crystals suck vs T2 Minmatar. I need to switch to thermal ammo, so do you.
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:27:00 -
[71]
Wow, look how my baby's grown!
@ Sarmaul: as was pointed out, most of the examples give to try and prove your "lasers work fine on half the setups out there" are pants. Every ship that has a tight cpu fits an EANM or three instead of the cpu hungey active hardeners. Anyone that fits EANMs has trained a couple levels of armor compensation. If they can use EANM IIs, you can count on the skills being at 4-5 for each type.
So your 10/19 figure is overall, but doesn't take into accout how common each setup is.
@ the "real physics" whiners: STFU! Is this the new way to derail any laser thread? Sure seems like it. Every laser/Amarr damage thread that comes up, someone tries to whine "but IRL lasers...blah...blah." It's a game and IRL physics are inspiration to make a balanced game. Talking about IRL laser physics is just a cheap way to derail a thread. And I think the guilty parties know it and do it on purpose. Start your own "real lasers" vs. "eve lasers" in General Discussion, and see who cares.
Bottom line is that EANMs + armor compensation skills have moved EM resistance away from their original balance point. I think the devs original idea was to make it so ex/kin/th only needed to be hardened to make fitting ships a bit easier. Letting lasers have a "free" shot at armor was the trade off for not having as many ship damage bonuses.
Tanking has changed with RMR, and lasers haven't kept up. I see five ways to fix this:
1) Balance the EM/thermal ratio of crystals.
2) Lower all ship EM resistance across the board.
3) Increase laser damage mods.
4) Add laser damage bonuses to all Amarr ships.
5) Create explosive crystals.
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Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:29:00 -
[72]
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:35:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Sarmaul
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
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Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:38:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
actually, that will be the worst ammo ever 
From Dusk till Dawn |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:38:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/06/2006 19:40:38
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
Eh... oh well
My point still stands. I classify anything that creates a BEAM of energy as a Laser based weapon when the actual weapon type is not specific...
Sorry, to be a nitpick, but..
If anything you would classify that the Amarr are using beam weapons instead of lasers. Lasers are beam weapons, but not every beam weapon is a laser, so to speak.
But the thing is: Amarr *are* using lasers. Simply because of the concept of frequency crystals - you can do this only with photons, you cannot shoot particle beams with an microwave or xray frequency, particle beams have no frequency at all. Only photons can do this due to them being both a wave and a particle.
@Kitty: Sorry about this, but I pointed out from the start that the EVE concept of lasers is quite unrealistic, so saying "exp damage from lasers is not realistic" is quite meaningless.
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Ather Ialeas
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Hear hear!
I'd quess it'd be something like 45%/35%/10%/10% across damage types though but still it'd be nice.
________________________________________________
My signature exploded :/ |
Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:40:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
@ the "real physics" whiners: STFU! Is this the new way to derail any laser thread? Sure seems like it. Every laser/Amarr damage thread that comes up, someone tries to whine "but IRL lasers...blah...blah." It's a game and IRL physics are inspiration to make a balanced game. Talking about IRL laser physics is just a cheap way to derail a thread. And I think the guilty parties know it and do it on purpose. Start your own "real lasers" vs. "eve lasers" in General Discussion, and see who cares.
LMFAO. I probobly deserved that. He started it *points at other poster*. I was just trying to back up my personal thoughts with the comparison as I gather it. I didn't mean to derail the thread.
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Bazman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:41:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Bazman on 01/06/2006 19:43:15
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Sarmauls 1400mm Howitzer perfectly strikes you, wrecking for 12,000 Damage
No thanks
oh, all 4 damage types you mean? Darn, my snappy comeback has been foiled!
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Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:43:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Bazman
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Sarmauls 1400mm Howitzer perfectly strikes you, wrecking for 12,000 Damage
No thanks
I don't think he meant quad damage as in the quake powerup
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:43:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
Eh... oh well
My point still stands. I classify anything that creates a BEAM of energy as a Laser based weapon when the actual weapon type is not specific...
Sorry, to be a nitpick, but..
If anything you would classify that the Amarr are using beam weapons instead of lasers. Lasers are beam weapons, but not every beam weapon is a laser, so to speak.
But the thing is: Amarr *are* using lasers. Simply because of the concept of frequency crystals - you can do this only with photons, you cannot shoot particle beams with an microwave or xray frequency, particle beams have no frequency at all. Only photons can do this due to them being both a wave and a particle.
Ok then... CCP needs to rewrite all the Amarrian weapons discriptions to reflect this and make it clear
Just my thought process has 4 major catagories i rate things in. BEAM, Energy (Plasma/Hybrid/energy pulse), Projectile, Missle. So when i think Laser without a specific refference to what TYPE of laser i usually generalize between all of them :P
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:43:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
explain to me how being able to do pitiful amounts of all 4 damage types is as good as amarr getting the ability to tear through tanks like nothing on earth. with a 2 second reload time you can strip shields with one, change ammo, and *****armour with the explosive crystals.
the reason projectile ammo is good is because each ammo has a bais to a certain damage type which can be used to target that weakness. doing all 4 damage times in equal amounts is pointless, as 3/4 of the ammo will be resisted well.
Originally by: General Apocalypse
the game is very well balanced
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Bazman
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:44:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Bazman
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Originally by: Sarmaul
The devs have stated that amarr aren't getting explosive crystals unless something equally good can be thought up for minmatar. think up something as good as explosive crystals for projectiles and you'll get your wish.
Easy, quad damage ammo.
Sarmauls 1400mm Howitzer perfectly strikes you, wrecking for 12,000 Damage
No thanks
I don't think he meant quad damage as in the quake powerup
Check edit :P
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Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:44:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
LMFAO. I probobly deserved that. He started it *points at other poster*. I was just trying to back up my personal thoughts with the comparison as I gather it. I didn't mean to derail the thread.
Actually it started with your "when you think about it" comment
But lets stop this. That particular sub-discussion is finished.
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:45:00 -
[84]
Well, getting exposive crystals are the last thing on my list. I'd rather see one of the other four happen first.
@ Exavier Macbeth: NP, thought you guys needed a nudge.
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Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Exavier Macbeth
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Well, getting exposive crystals are the last thing on my list. I'd rather see one of the other four happen first.
@ Exavier Macbeth: NP, thought you guys needed a nudge.
hehe. But on the issue I think that close range crystals should give more thermal then EM while the longer ones should still give more EM. As per my views already stated.
And no i don't use lasers on a regular basis. I am one of those ppl who do love their minmatar ships. I can only fly Amarrian ships and use Lasers because a friend decided to train them on me during a 3 month absence from the game. So i played with them off and on after that :P
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.06.01 19:58:00 -
[86]
DPS calculations are based on zero resistance to the damage, making Amarr "DPS" against armor quite low.
Noob.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:04:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Sarmaul
My explosive barrage ammo (aka "best ammo ever") sucks vs T2 Amarr, your EM crystals suck vs T2 Minmatar. I need to switch to thermal ammo, so do you.
That's just as wrong. Projectiles should be the best against Amarr ships. At least you can switch to phased plasma.
Originally by: Sarmaul
with a 2 second reload time you can strip shields with one, change ammo, and *****armour with the explosive crystals.
Like stripping shields with barrage would take long..
Most armor tanks have pitiful shields.
Forsch
Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:05:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Forsch
the worst possible choice to use against the racial enemy of Amarr
You think that's funny?
Vagabond can loose to a zealot... so I too think its funny.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Vera Nosfyu
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:15:00 -
[89]
Personally, despite being a Minmatar pilot, I would like to see ay least one crystal with a higher thermal than EM damage. It'd add more versatility to the Amarr, make things more interesting. However, by the same token hybrids would need to be given a high thermal charge, too, to keep things balanced.
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"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.06.01 20:18:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Sarmaul
My explosive barrage ammo (aka "best ammo ever") sucks vs T2 Amarr, your EM crystals suck vs T2 Minmatar. I need to switch to thermal ammo, so do you.
That's just as wrong. Projectiles should be the best against Amarr ships. At least you can switch to phased plasma.
Why... the game was built while the empires were at peace. They need to be balanced between the 4 races not 2 on 2.
Quote:
Originally by: Sarmaul
with a 2 second reload time you can strip shields with one, change ammo, and *****armour with the explosive crystals.
Like stripping shields with barrage would take long..
Most armor tanks have pitiful shields.
yeah... ever tried shooting Quake or Tremmor? Maybe in 1 on 1 reloads aren't important... but when was the last time you had a streak of 1 on 1s on TQ?
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Aemilus Brutus
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Posted - 2006.06.02 04:26:00 -
[91]
Am I the only one that thinks Minnies having one base resist so massively high is not right, I don't see any other factions' ships with one massive base resist that makes them nearly invincible to another side. Why should Amarr get shafted? And the Amarr setups I saw never had a 92% base explosive resist, high yes, but not that high, plus Minnies can do other damage types, Amarr don't have that option. So make Minnies like the Caldari and Gallente with damage types that do ok against each other and not a massive resistance.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.06.02 04:41:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Aemilus Brutus
Am I the only one that thinks Minnies having one base resist so massively high is not right, I don't see any other factions' ships with one massive base resist that makes them nearly invincible to another side. Why should Amarr get shafted? And the Amarr setups I saw never had a 92% base explosive resist, high yes, but not that high, plus Minnies can do other damage types, Amarr don't have that option. So make Minnies like the Caldari and Gallente with damage types that do ok against each other and not a massive resistance.
Well I think it's because CCP added +75% on the main damage resist of the enemy race and 50% on the secondary damage..
Minmatar really lucked out on this because obviously Amarr ships do EM damage with lasers so:
0 EM Shield + 75% built in = 75% base shield.
70% EM Armor + 75% built in = 92.5% base armor.
Since the resist of Minmatar armor against EM was already rather good, the addition of the racial bonus makes it insane..
Other races didn't quite make out as well, for example, while a Caldari ship got a +60% thermal resist boost (the effect of one 75% hardener), Minmatar got 0 to 75% EM resist, which is obviously a huge boost due to the fact that shields have no EM resist what so ever therefore unlike the resists of other races.. no "stacking" penalty. Of course this is kinda moot since Gallente ships mostly do kinetic damage.. and Amarr get pretty screwed too since Minmatar ships probably use EMP Ammo most of the time, yet get boosted explosive/kinetic resists.
Honestly though in the "racial resist" department Minmatar and Amarr are the winners, overall.. Gallente still have a pretty big explosive resist hole, and Caldari are the biggest losers with 0% EM, the other races seem to have overall very good resists which are very easy to plug, comparetively speaking.
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FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Godar Marak
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Posted - 2006.06.02 06:57:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Honestly though in the "racial resist" department Minmatar and Amarr are the winners
We all know Amarr is supposed to tank, but isnt Minmatars supposed to be the exact oposite? High damage and not so good tank.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.06.02 07:02:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Honestly though in the "racial resist" department Minmatar and Amarr are the winners, overall.. Gallente still have a pretty big explosive resist hole, and Caldari are the biggest losers with 0% EM, the other races seem to have overall very good resists which are very easy to plug, comparetively speaking.
Our racial resist does squat against our racial enemy, i don't see how thats so great.
Having explosive as a hole isn't so bad because it is the least common damage type.
-
_____
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Void Walker
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Posted - 2006.06.02 07:23:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Exavier Macbeth
If you think about it the longer the range through space the less Thermal energy there will be left in the beam.
Physics comprehension ftw :) Photons loose no energy when travelling through a vacuum, the thermal energy is generated by the interaction of the particle charge on the recipient matter, photons don't get 'cooler' whilst in transit. The only possible reason laser damage would decrease over distance is the size of the focal circumference of the beam, if your lense was less than perfect you may end up increasing the size of the area being hit, although the net energy received on the target would be the same, the surface area of effect would be larger and therefore more easily dissipated.
TBH, as an Amarr specialist pilot i think lasers are fine as they are, any changes would put the ships with a damage modifier into a slightly overpowered situation.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.06.02 08:07:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
EM damage has been made worthless by one single change: the Energized Adaptive Nano boost.
Now that everyone uses EAN2s, EM is always their strongest resist.
well it depends..
it might be the case if you fit only 2 hardeners.
If you fit several EANM, every next one of them will give diminishing effect.
If you fit 4 hardeners then you will get way more resists across the board if you fit 1 EANM, and 1 of each active hardeners except for the EM one. This would mean that only two resiscance mods will stack. If you fit 3 or 4 EANM that would mean that 3 or 4 of them will stack which is absolutely pointless as 3rd and 4th's effects are negligable.
Can't provide numbers but maybe I will this evening.
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.06.02 08:12:00 -
[97]
Amarr dmg types are perfect, and you're still whining ... and now i know that being an amarr pilot isnt suck a bad idea. With 7 t2 mega pulses on geddon with conflag + 3 heat sinks II you do about 920 dps with ONLY guns. Add to it 5 ogres/berserkers II and you'll have dps of (almost) mega, but no, you still want more ...
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.02 08:25:00 -
[98]
its not like minnies are very happy with their high em armour resist, i guarantue you most would change it for 3 high resists and 1 hole instead of 1 high 1 insane and 2 holes
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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VeNT
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Posted - 2006.06.02 11:43:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
its not like minnies are very happy with their high em armour resist, i guarantue you most would change it for 3 high resists and 1 hole instead of 1 high 1 insane and 2 holes
totaly!
also I'd like a projectile ammo for each range bonus that does each type of damage, so I can fit accordingly.
Kthxbye
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Selena 001 > has VeNT left system? its gone really quiet! |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.06.02 13:50:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Meridius
Our racial resist does squat against our racial enemy, i don't see how thats so great.
Having explosive as a hole isn't so bad because it is the least common damage type.
T2 Amarr ships armor resist is very very good though, the biggest hole is thermal, which is 35%. Using one energized adaptive nano membrane II + a thermal hardner II you get some pretty good results..
T2 Projectile Ammo is very high in explosive/kinetic damage so the Amarr racial resists do help against that. I'd much rather have my lowest resist be 35% than say.. 10 or 0% as the Caldari/Gallente t2 ships have to compensate for.
Originally by: Godar Marak
We all know Amarr is supposed to tank, but isnt Minmatars supposed to be the exact oposite? High damage and not so good tank.
Eh.. Amarr can do do very high DPS + Tank as well..
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FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Godar Marak
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Posted - 2006.06.02 14:25:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Eh.. Amarr can do do very high DPS + Tank as well..
Ehhh, what ship are you talking about now
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.06.02 15:06:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Eh.. Amarr can do do very high DPS + Tank as well..
Ehhh, what ship are you talking about now
zealot can do high dps and tank very well.
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FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Godar Marak
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Posted - 2006.06.02 15:21:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Eh.. Amarr can do do very high DPS + Tank as well..
Ehhh, what ship are you talking about now
zealot can do high dps and tank very well.
As I predicted
Do I really have to explain to you that the Zealot(a t2 ship) is NOT like your average Amarr ship
Evolution doesnt work after all
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Weirda
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Posted - 2006.06.02 15:22:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Eh.. Amarr can do do very high DPS + Tank as well..
Ehhh, what ship are you talking about now
grodar... you are embarassment to you race. and that is coming from matari.
go back to you cave.
__
Weirda
Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More! |
Godar Marak
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Posted - 2006.06.02 15:25:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Weirda
Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Eh.. Amarr can do do very high DPS + Tank as well..
Ehhh, what ship are you talking about now
grodar... you are embarassment to you race. and that is coming from matari.
go back to you cave.
Learn how to read.
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2006.06.02 15:40:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Godar Marak
As I predicted
Do I really have to explain to you that the Zealot(a t2 ship) is NOT like your average Amarr ship
Evolution doesnt work after all
We where talking t2 resist at the moment didn't we? How the different racial t2 resits compared to racial damages etc. Zelot is a very good example there.
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Godar Marak
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Posted - 2006.06.02 15:49:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Godar Marak
As I predicted
Do I really have to explain to you that the Zealot(a t2 ship) is NOT like your average Amarr ship
Evolution doesnt work after all
We where talking t2 resist at the moment didn't we? How the different racial t2 resits compared to racial damages etc. Zelot is a very good example there.
If so touche'(sp), but I belive the post I quoted was a post about resistance in general.
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:49:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
The most glaring examples are Gamma (14/8) vs. Plutonium(12/10), Ultraviolet (12/6) vs. Thorium (10/8), and Radio (10/0) vs. Iron (6/4). These crystals are too EM heavy when compared to the kinetic damage of hybrid ammo.
Just an update. I've bug reported these crystals because of them being too EM heavy in comparison. Maybe a small start is getting these crystals fixed?
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Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals! |
Godar Marak
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Posted - 2006.06.03 08:56:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay
Maybe a small start is getting these crystals fixed?
Dont count on it, Amarr is just fine. But more importantly there is no such thing as a crystal reload bug.
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