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Beardon
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
33
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Posted - 2014.06.03 20:11:00 -
[181] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:Beardon wrote:I'm also going to point the probable bias lurking here: being in galmil, of course you know more soloists in galmil. I know more soloists in calmil because I know the pilots in calmil a lot better. this is just dumb i dont get to know the soloists in the area by being in a certain militia i learn by flying around and dying i can name way more pirate soloists than i can calmil soloists, does this mean im in the pirate militia?
Are you actually going to make the claim that you know calmil pilots better than galmil pilots? Because that's all I'm saying. If you know one group better, then you'll have a more informed opinion about them. You know galmil better, so you have a more informed opinion about galmil. When you're comparing two groups, and you have a more informed opinion about one group over the other, it's going to be a slanted comparison. That's the bias I'm pointing to. It's really not a complicated argument....
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wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
31
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Posted - 2014.06.03 20:15:00 -
[182] - Quote
LOL you're actually coming at me like i didnt understand what you said? aaaaaaahahahaha
its obviously not a complicated argument
i said its a BAD/DUMB argument - and i showed cause for that
as if saying "durr you're biased" requires explanation... god... |
Beardon
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
33
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 20:46:00 -
[183] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:LOL you're actually coming at me like i didnt understand what you said? aaaaaaahahahaha
its obviously not a complicated argument
i said its a BAD/DUMB argument - and i showed cause for that
as if saying "durr you're biased" requires explanation... god...
You really didn't present a case for it, but I'll try feeding the troll a bit more. You either do know calmil pilots better than galmil pilots, which isn't likely, or you know galmil pilots better and have biased arguments in your "calmil is garbage" argument.
Your best argument against mine is that you know calmil pilots well enough to make claims about them by flying and dying. Even this is really implausible because you probably end up in certain areas of the WZ flying and dying against the pilots in that area. This qualifies you to make statements about that specific group, but not the entire militia. I know for myself the only galmil group I have enough contact with to make claims about is JUSTK, but this isn't sufficient to make sweeping claims about the entire militia, which is what you're doing here (and is what I'm objecting to you doing).
Your counter example about pirate militia is so dumb that I think you're intentionally missing the point. |
Rude Lee
Rude Lee and The Vexor Underground
0
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Posted - 2014.06.03 20:51:00 -
[184] - Quote
Beardon wrote:These threads tend to go the same way (like this one has): one side compares their best to the other sides worst... A corp/alliance centric Gallente fleet rolling out in doctrine ships vs a kitchen sink fleet pulled together with the dregs of militia pubbies
"Pubbies"?? Faction War is in low sec. We don't talk that way.
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wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
31
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Posted - 2014.06.03 20:58:00 -
[185] - Quote
you can keep restating your mongo trash "omg ur biased, u cant make generalizations about a whole militia"
actually i can, i did, and my generalization is correct
restating it over and over doesnt make it any less stupid
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Beardon
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
33
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Posted - 2014.06.03 21:17:00 -
[186] - Quote
Restating unfounded generalizations is stupid. You've presented no arguments other than repeating yourself. Sorry that I tried to take you seriously; didn't realize that you just wanted to stamp your feet and have a circle jerk.
Never said that you couldn't make the claims, just that your experience isn't sufficient to justify the claims. You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it true. |
Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs
Monkeys with Guns.
218
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Posted - 2014.06.03 21:56:00 -
[187] - Quote
Aw man guys, we were happily trolling and making fun of each other and you have to start taking things serious...
That said, anyone who doesnt solo in a hulltanked Algos isnt a proper solo pilot anyway, especially after today! xD |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
31
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 00:21:00 -
[188] - Quote
im all for having light hearted discussion, but when a doofus like beardon comes in and starts making rude and insulting posts with absolutely no frame of reference for what hes insulting, i must respond
beardon comes in here and reads my post, and without thinking about it at all he responds with some 10 year old level trash "you're biased therefore everything you say carries less weight"
i refute that infantile claim, then beardon comes back thinking "wow wilgotna didnt agree with me, he must not have understood what im trying to say"
so he restates that im biased in a more long-winded form, basically saying "okay wilgotna you're so hella dumb now im just repeating myself, maybe youll understand this time mmmk??"
then he pulls some crap like flip flopping around, changing his attack to "wilgotna doesnt have enough experience to be making these generalizations and everything he says is unfounded"
once again insulting me by claiming that i would make unfounded generalizations, or make judgements without any experience
as if my 1 year in the warzone counts for nothing, in BOTH miltias, and as a pirate
as if my previous THREADS on this topic count for nothing, which included efficiencies, battle outcomes, FC testimononials, average pilot testimonials
then he has the audacity to say that im circlejerking when the ENTIRE reason for my posting is to STOP the freaking circlejerking and get gallente to FIGHT eachother
tldr: beardon is a child-like jerk who comes into a conversation mid-way, not understanding half of it, and proceeds to judge and insult the people having the conversation |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
Repeat 0ffenders
925
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Posted - 2014.06.04 00:32:00 -
[189] - Quote
Im with wil, gallente are awesome and perfect as we are!
Thanks for bringing this up will, youre the champ! |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
204
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 01:13:00 -
[190] - Quote
Beardon wrote:Restating unfounded generalizations is stupid. You've presented no arguments other than repeating yourself. Sorry that I tried to take you seriously; didn't realize that you just wanted to stamp your feet and have a circle jerk.
Never said that you couldn't make the claims, just that your experience isn't sufficient to justify the claims. You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it true.
the proof you want is on the killboards.
BLFOX is currently recruiting |
Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
22
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Posted - 2014.06.04 07:25:00 -
[191] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Beardon wrote:Restating unfounded generalizations is stupid. You've presented no arguments other than repeating yourself. Sorry that I tried to take you seriously; didn't realize that you just wanted to stamp your feet and have a circle jerk.
Never said that you couldn't make the claims, just that your experience isn't sufficient to justify the claims. You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it true. the proof you want is on the killboards.
Yeah - the solo figures are pretty clear and pretty stark:
Compare the solo pages for the top four corps on each side (and at a glance the top 10 characters for the last week on the right hand side of each page):
Caldari
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98187140/solo/
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98296216/solo/
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98107258/solo/
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98248053/solo/
Gallente
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98313291/solo/
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98125391/solo/
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98198874/solo/
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98177721/solo/
However, I'm not sure what the imbalance re: solo PvP culture is supposed to demonstrate as soloing has a pretty minimal impact on the warzone and prevalence of solo players does not translate into greater corp-wide combat effectiveness (as comparing the fairly similar efficiencies of all 8 of those corps shows). |
Eve Austerity
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology
1
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:10:00 -
[192] - Quote
Epikurus wrote:https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98177721/solo/However, I'm not sure what the imbalance re: solo PvP culture is supposed to demonstrate as soloing has a pretty minimal impact on the warzone and prevalence of solo players does not translate into greater corp-wide combat effectiveness (as comparing the fairly similar efficiencies of all 8 of those corps shows).
Agreed.
From our perspective we have pilots capable of soloing, its just they choose to spend their game time in corp fleets - eve being an mmo.
Half of the solo deaths on our kb right now are not even relevant as they are newer players simply trying their hand at solo pvp during quiet times, others are not even solo pvpers they have simply been caught doing whatever they were doing IE were unlikely to have gone out with the idea of finding a solo pvp match up.
When u look at our most skilled players id happily send them up against GalMil soloer's and I'm sure the outcomes would be pretty even.
To me this looks like a red herring. It's a nice stat but has zero significance regarding any sensible metric u can use to measure the strength of the respective corps or faction.
Galmil have a number of more widely recognised characters - sure , are they better when broken down by corp and compared to CalMil corps - no
What GalMil has is better integration of the alliances and corps in its faction - IE they come together much better than CalMil currently does - Does this mean they are generally better at eve - Only in the sense that they interact better not in terms of piloting
With the exception of the odd CalMil alliance, Gal are better at flying logi and deploy them effectively through all time zones.
Other than that GalMil will occasionally deploy shinier ships (meaning the fleet composition will be significantly more powerful than what CalMil will have in the field - Why? They have a very good chance of staying alive due to number of quality logistics pilots GalMil currently have.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
461
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:20:00 -
[193] - Quote
Eve Austerity wrote:Stuff
Yeah, sure, but c'mon, be honest: we're also awesome. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2253
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 13:45:00 -
[194] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Eve Austerity wrote:Stuff Yeah, sure, but c'mon, be honest: we're also awesome.
Black Fox IS awesome. +1 to all Marauders. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
205
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 13:47:00 -
[195] - Quote
Ok so the skill of the individual pilots don't matter, nor does their aggressive mentality to go out and get fights (compare total number of kills between the 4 corps on each side you linked)?
Your argument as I understand it is:
We have better and more logi bro's (basically everyone is willing to fly logi whenever needed)
Our CEOs/Diplos are better (you know, they talk to each other and do stuff)
We have a few more pilots that are willing to put something beyond 30 million isk on grid
???? Am I missing something ????
BLFOX is currently recruiting |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2253
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 13:49:00 -
[196] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:???? Am I missing something ????
Somebody is. They didn't post QCATS solo stats.
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
205
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 14:12:00 -
[197] - Quote
"Does this mean they are generally better at eve - Only in the sense that they interact better not in terms of piloting" <- wrong, we are better at both.
It might be worth noting that there are 4 Gal Mil Corps in the top 10 for recent corps on Battleclinic (for all of eve) and also the #1 alliance.
Corps
2. JUSTK
4. QCATS
5. BLFOX
10. TDG
Alliances
1. YNOT
There are also 2 of the top 11 corps at mass slaughter (total ships destroyed) in all of eve on zkillboard:
8. JUSTK
11. BLFOX
BLFOX is currently recruiting |
Eve Austerity
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology
1
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 14:30:00 -
[198] - Quote
[quote=Thanatos Marathon]Ok so the skill of the individual pilots don't matter, nor does their aggressive mentality to go out and get fights (compare total number of kills between the 4 corps on each side you linked)?
Yeah u are definitely missing something - Justified Chaos lol which bring 3 * the total number of kills to the table.
Total kills if fine its more indicative of time served than anything else though - I concede it could also be an indicator of other things.
Look at the monthly stats - GHIOT was reformed only a couple of months ago give us another 6 months and then lets take another look.
Give us just 1 month more and I expect we as a corp will be out killing your corps on a monthly basis.
But you are neglecting the most important factor. Are we have fun in the game? - Our pilots certainly are, loads of it. I'm happy we can find fights anytime we want.
See you all in the WZ
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
206
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 14:38:00 -
[199] - Quote
Eve Austerity wrote: I concede
Oki, back to blowing up internet spaceships then and having a blast.
BLFOX is currently recruiting |
Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
22
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Posted - 2014.06.04 20:21:00 -
[200] - Quote
Here's how I see it ...
The Gallente militia has more solid corps/alliances and a greater number of experienced pilots, better integration of that force across the militia and certainly a better logistics team. As a whole GalMil is certainly ahead.
However, while the number of top level corps and alliances is smaller in CalMil I don't see a major quality difference between those organisations and the comparable organisations in GalMil (note that I don't say I don't see any difference at all). With the exception of Templis, the major CalMil organisations are much younger than those on the Gallente side and this shows in how developed their integration with one another is. This is a systemic issue and not, as Thanatos suggests, because the Gallente CEOs and diplos are 'better'. The CEOs and diplos on each side are working within entirely different environments and gauging their relative base quality in a way that ignores environmental factors provides only a very crude metric. Similarly, gauging comparative aggressiveness, martial spirit and willingness to fight on the basis of comparing total monthly kills ignores the admitted fact that there are many more easy kills available to Gallente pilots than to those in CalMil due to the greater preponderance of farmers and lower quality corps and alliances within the Caldari militia.
The long and the short is that the Gallente militia as a whole is better and more successful than the Caldari militia as a whole at the moment but the distance between given top tier Gallente corps and top tier Caldari corps is considerably smaller, albeit not non-existent. I differ from EVE in that I think that GalMil does have considerably more top flight soloers, a situation that is entirely natural given relative times served in the warzone, but I don't think this is a particularly useful metric for general operational value given the very small impact soloing has on the warzone (I don't see a desire to solo as some mythical thing representing the martial spirit of each side; it's a particular play style that appeals to some individuals more than others and that is easier to pursue the greater the number of SP the individual pilot has).
The factors that make the greatest difference in gauging the relative quality of the two sides are integration and logistics experience. GalMil is way ahead in these areas and it would be foolish to deny it. It's something we'll need to work on a great deal as our corps mature and settle in to long term working relationships with one another.
tl;dr - GalMil as a whole is currently better but the top CalMil organisations are pretty close to their counterparts, although less numerous. A large amount of the quality difference is not due to 'better pilots' but systemic issues on the Caldari side that, when resolved, will close the gap by leap and bounds.
Now we just have the tiny matter of resolving those systemic issues  |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
33
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 20:57:00 -
[201] - Quote
guys we arent here to decide which militia is better...
galmil is - it is an established fact
we are here to figure out a solution - to which i propose that either galmil has a nice fat civil war OR one or more large galmil corps defect to caldari
calmil in of itself is pretty much a lost cause and cannot solve this problem |
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
129
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Posted - 2014.06.04 21:58:00 -
[202] - Quote
If your looking for PVP Action follow CODE around. I am certain you will find some quick easy kills. At last check one of their main leaders Cannibal Kane was residing in Tama and is a Pirate as well as the leader of the high sector CODE Incursions.
Getting Free Kills for CODE in the Faction War Arena - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=349557 |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
388
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 22:00:00 -
[203] - Quote
We could care less about CODE unless they show up in our lowsec systems, and try to engage us. Take you hisec problems elsewhere. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
256
|
Posted - 2014.06.04 22:47:00 -
[204] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:calmil in of itself is pretty much a lost cause and cannot solve this problem
You're smoking something good if you believe this. Over the past few months we've put them through the wringer, showed them their weak points, and smashed their faces with them. Their performance in Kehjari was excellent, and similar to their performance in Innia back in the day. Bloc, Templis, and Heiian all have been fielding good sized fleets lately, trolling for fights.
All these are signs of a militia that's getting it's feet back under it and finding it's footing again.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1488
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Posted - 2014.06.04 23:01:00 -
[205] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department |
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Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
99
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Posted - 2014.06.05 01:25:00 -
[206] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:guys we arent here to decide which militia is better...
galmil is - it is an established fact
we are here to figure out a solution - to which i propose that either galmil has a nice fat civil war OR one or more large galmil corps defect to caldari
calmil in of itself is pretty much a lost cause and cannot solve this problem
As the OP, I'm going to say nope you're wrong. I don't want the GalMil to have to civil war, as a RPer it would make cry to kill some mates, cept Crosi (he is my hero, but I know that snake set is in his head, I wants it).
Most of my thoughts about why there has not been a GalMil Civil war have been said. And I can't remember who said it, but I think that culture is the biggest reason there isn't one. It seems that in the CalMIl ever corp relies on their own CORP FC and leadership. There is no Militia FC, but that is also because you all are scared crazy of general militia guys as well. I think that as a Militia the GalMil offeres several FCs that do a couple different things and keep people active. We have everything for derptron jrFCs to BS fleet FCs, and all of these are open to the everyone. That has a lot to do with the culture in the GalMil.
But the CalMil is not a lost cause. It used to be the Militia to join. And unfortunatly for CalMil when the took the whole warzone in late 2009 it changed both their culture and Galmils. I really think that moment change the outlook of the GalMil. The old member of that remember never want it, to happen again, so the stick together and don't let small personally problems get in the way. One the other side of the coin I feel as if the Caldari are looking for a leader to lead them to victory, but become scared of it when it's there in reach and implode.
I hope the Calmil does improve. I enjoy the good fights and fun times had in the warzone.
Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
470
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Posted - 2014.06.05 08:48:00 -
[207] - Quote
I found very interesting stats on Dotlan: days since last occupancy change. You can reverse sort 'Last Chg' column.
Gallente have held 5 (+1: Notoras) home systems for well over an year or longer, with Vlill being Gallente for over 1,600 days and counting! Tannolen and Hallanen are held for almost an year, too.
Instead, Caldari have only 3 systems held for more than a year, with none of them being main home systems to my (perhaps limited) knowledge. First important ones I know of are Okkamon (260 days) and Ladistier (200 days).
That does say a lot about GalMil stability and unity. |
Major Trant
CTRL-Q
Iron Oxide.
739
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 11:15:00 -
[208] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:I also think that the tendency of failed nullbears to use FW to refill their coffers has a lot to do with it. None of them join GalMIl, so we don't have the same influx of arrogant money grubbing know it alls who want to come in and tell us how things are supposed to be done, all while expecting us to bow before their obvious superiority.
I think this probably is the biggest reason. Most nullsec and other transient corps that join the militias for a quick LP/Isk boost are mindful of access to Jita, thus tend to choose either the Caldari or Amarr militia, with GalMil as their absolute last choice. These corps/alliance arrive expecting their numbers will overwhelm the opposing Militia. Then when they find that their one huge blob cannot compete against small scattered skirmishing gangs, they start stamping their feet and demanding the rest of their militia get behind their objectives and some even go to the extreme of shooting friendlies that they perceive are doing nothing other than milking the tier and LP advantages that they had no part in creating.
In the last 2 years that I've been in the Minmatar Militia, I've only seen one large blob join us and of course one major civil war. That was Biohazard/Winmatar. When they arrived, they believed they could take over the whole warzone and maintain Tier 5 indefinitely. They joined us when the Amarr were peaking and things quickly turned around reinforcing their view that they had made the difference. They refused to believe that the warzone ebbed and flowed like a tide between the two sides. Eventually, we reached a point where the Minmatar held most of the warzone. Tier 5 was reached and for a couple of weeks things were rosy. But then the tide turned and started going back to the Amarr. Biohazard couldn't understand it, they started raging in militia chat as to how useless every other corp was. How the rest of us were just a bunch of farmers taking advantage of their efforts. Thus how we didn't deserve their protection and couldn't expect to run POS's with immunity if we wouldn't defend the warzone. So they started taking friendly POSs off other Minmatar Militia corp. After about 2 weeks of civil war, what was left of Biohazard/Winmatar had quit the Minmatar and ran to the Gallente.
X Gallentius wrote:The more interesting thing is that both Khan and Winmatar fit right in when they joined Gallente Militia. What's up with that?
This is a stupid conclusion. Winmatar were still reeling from the kicking they had just taken from the Minmatar, almost half their members had quit, which included one of their Titan pilots. Of course they are going to be a bit docile after that. In short the Minmatar trained them to eat a bit of humble pie. Besides they were gone within a few weeks, they switched back to the Amarr Militia as soon as they had the standings to do that. I can't speak for Khan, but wasn't their arrival in GalMil under similar circumstances?
CTRL-Q - Minmatar FW - Low Sec PvP - Euro TZ - New Player Friendly
Contact: Major Trant
In game channel: FeO Public
Recruitment thread: CTRL-Q |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
33
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 12:25:00 -
[209] - Quote
the even funnier thing about khan is that after he was done getting stomped by galmil he ran off to highsec stuff for a bit, following the main incursion groups
he then came back and briefly joined galmil and proceeded to SHOOT AT HIS FORMER ALLIES
he then left because (to paraphrase from an interview with him) "killing cal mil is so easy that its boring"
let me repeat that: someone who got wrecked by galmil didnt want to be in galmil because killing calmil was TOO EASY |
Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
22
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Posted - 2014.06.05 12:36:00 -
[210] - Quote
Phox Jorkarzul wrote:One the other side of the coin I feel as if the Caldari are looking for a leader to lead them to victory, but become scared of it when it's there in reach and implode.
It's a bit tricky to talk about 'CalMil' as a single unit in a historical context as most of the CalMil organisations now are relatively new to FW. What CalMil did in the past is unlikely to reveal a lot about how the current iteration will act as most of the people are different (including a lot at the leadership level).
On the question of looking for a leader, this is, frankly, the last thing we need. Single figureheads are more often polarising than unifying and we will be far better off going down the pluralistic route as this is not only the best way to get numerous organisations working together in the absence of the kind of nullsec framework that pushes towards space dictatorships but will also be more enduring and not liable to collapse in the event of the one true god having RL issues or burning out or moving on.
Re: militia FCs and fleets, not sure how it was when you were here but we have those now. There has been a process of rebuilding since Khan and Vick left, which happened at the same time as Cyrus Mierre went inactive due to RL issues, removing a large proportion of the active militia Fleet Commanders and regular fleets in a short period, but there are now lots of people taking out medium to large fleets on a regular basis. Typically those fleets will have the FC's corp/alliance as its basis but will draw half its manpower from other militia corps (this proportion varies a bit by TZ) and will be open to general militia as well.
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