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Aleena TheGhost
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:34:00 -
[1]
This is a joke. I haven't been able to do anything without a CTD or a node going offline and getting disconnected. A week of this is too much.
Can someone tell me how to get my money back or do I need to go through the BBB or Attorney General, if you live in the U.S.
-****ed Off-
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Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:36:00 -
[2]
Simple answer: You don't.
Not everyone is being effected by these problems (Making isolation, and eventual correction, of these problems difficult), nor is anyone being forced to "endure" bugs and problems they know exist.
ú10 is a lot cheaper than a lot of other luxuries in this world.
You need to get out more if you get in such an upheaval over something like this.
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Aleena TheGhost
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:39:00 -
[3]
It's not a question of getting out more. I paid for a product and service and I expect to be able to use "said" product and service.
When the applications CTDs and keeps kicking me offline then there is a problem with the software. CCP is obviously not addressing the issue.
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Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:39:00 -
[4]
A refund? HAHAHAHAHA!
You don't get refunds for online games, no matter how badly they are put together.
Welcome to the 21st century.
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |
Aleena TheGhost
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:42:00 -
[5]
Ok, you have all convinced me to take this to take the next step.
Even if I don't get a refund, CCP will get a load of junk mail and phone calls from the BBB and Attorney General's office. This annoyance alone will make up for the money I wasted on this game.
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Singular
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:42:00 -
[6]
Yeah, make sure to ask Mr Ashcroft to put some diplomatic pressure on Iceland so they give you your $10 back lol.
You have no power.
There is nothing you can do.
Accept it and move on.
Im Yo Huckleberreh |
Zodiac Laserstorm
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:42:00 -
[7]
I guess they will tell you what EA tells players of Ultima Online: "You have other options to play the game". In EVE, you don't have other servers, BUT you can use a secondary char. Okay, so I'm not an amarrian, I play elsewhere, but when MY node busts, I play with a gallentite or a minmatar. *shrugs* Adapt, it's either that or getting an ucular 
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:44:00 -
[8]
 Quote:
Ok, you have all convinced me to take this to take the next step.
Even if I don't get a refund, CCP will get a load of junk mail and phone calls from the BBB and Attorney General's office. This annoyance alone will make up for the money I wasted on this game.
lol,
good luck.
No really I mean that.
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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Aleena TheGhost
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:46:00 -
[9]
Hey, if the CEO of TTI can sue CCP to get his way then I can make a complaint to get a refund.
They sell the game in the U.S. so they are bound by its laws as the same for any other country.
So, why not try.
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:47:00 -
[10]
Your best bet for a refund is bringing the CD and jewelcase back.
I mean it.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:47:00 -
[11]
The BBB has ABSOLUTELY NO authority outside of the USA and the AG has better things to do than chase some gaming company for $10.
Your complaints will fall on deaf ears, but good luck with your attempt anyway.
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |
Lliad
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:49:00 -
[12]
Go read the conctract that you agree to every time you play the game.
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Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:49:00 -
[13]
Disc is right. If you are really lucky, the store clerk has been shafted by an online game and will be willing to breach policy and give you a refund.
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |
Aleena TheGhost
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:50:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Aleena TheGhost on 24/09/2003 16:53:22
Edited by: Aleena TheGhost on 24/09/2003 16:51:37
As I said in my last post. They sell the game in the U.S. so they must abide by that country's laws.
Hell, I don't care if the refund comes from CCP or Simon & Schuster. Either way, one of the two companies is liable.
I want the $49.95 and the $12.95 I paid.
Also, by clicking the "Agree" button I did not agree to waive all my legal rights. In the U.S. you need that in the form of a signed document and the last time I checked, clicking yes wasn't the same as an electronic signature.
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Judicator
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:52:00 -
[15]
Please accept that the BBB and Attorney General has very limited power outside the U.S. Also, CCP is not the publisher, Simon & Schuster are, so when it comes to a refund bug them about it, not CCP.
Get your facts straight before you start throwing threats.
P.S You should also try and accept that it might be your system that is causing the problem(s).
-------------------------
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:52:00 -
[16]
Hahahaha go get a clue
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:54:00 -
[17]
Prove it was CCP and not your machine, your connection to the internet or an intermidiary link that was to blame for your problems.
Let us all take a moment to appreciate the US's concern for its business practices by dumping milliongs of tons of toxic pollutants into the atmosphere and decimating ecosystems in neighbouring countries.
I'm certainly glad you Americans are so concerned with your ethical business practices.
===============================
Deception + Information + Skill |
Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:57:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Anara Valencia on 24/09/2003 16:58:17
Karif,
What does that have to do with anything.
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Zodiac Laserstorm
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Posted - 2003.09.24 16:58:00 -
[19]
From the EULA (The one you agree to EVERY TIME you start EVE up)
Ø
16. GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUMØ
Ø
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.Ø
Ø
The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of ReykjavÝk, Iceland, (HÚrasd¾mur ReykjavÝkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of ReykjavÝk, Iceland.Ø
So, I think you'll have to turn your attentions THERE is you want this. And I do doubt you'll really get anywhere.
Also, before you start lashing out at those here that tell you you won't get far with your claims: Seriously, don't flame us, we're only telling you you can safe up your trouble.
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Aleena TheGhost
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Posted - 2003.09.24 17:01:00 -
[20]
Zodiac,
Thank you for the information but I figure it is worth a try. Like I said earlier, either CCP or Simon & Schuster is liable.
So, I'll try my luck and see what I get.
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IcedBach Jr
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Posted - 2003.09.24 17:03:00 -
[21]
I give this thread the most stupid one of the year. Attorney general, rolf
Praeludium to success |
Lliad
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Posted - 2003.09.24 17:04:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lliad on 24/09/2003 17:05:42
You sighned the contract. So you have no chance of doing what you say. Also do you really think the BBB or Autorney General give a ****? They will laught at you even more than i did.
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Zodiac Laserstorm
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Posted - 2003.09.24 17:13:00 -
[23]
Most welcome m'dear *winks and grins his best boyish-charme smile*
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Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2003.09.24 20:55:00 -
[24]
Somebody else who didn't read the EULA
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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Nafres Maelstrom
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Posted - 2003.09.24 21:21:00 -
[25]
lol you guys are deluded,all that he has to do if he paid via visa,is contest the charge,that will put a hold on charges,and reimburse him whilst visa sorts out the issue.
when they ask for the reason simply state denial of services its easy enough to prove a pattern of declining availability in eve.
then visa goes after said company for the chargeback.
And yall think this iusnt done every day?
think again.
the marvel of online retail is it makes companies,agree to a eula of sorts where this chargeback thing can take place much like were forced too by ccp no matter what the lackluster service we get is,except now there the small fish swimmin with sharks.
seems turn around is fair play.
CEO/Manufacturing and Research
img/http://www.dbhome.dk/soulclaw/images/obsidiancard.jpg/img] |
darth solo
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Posted - 2003.09.24 21:31:00 -
[26]
omg, how can you honestly prove to anyone that it isnt the fault of your machine?.
If your game has been unplayable for a week, it has to be something at your end. We all arnt having these kinds of problems, so doesnt that make you think somewhat?.
It sometimes doesnt work the way i want it to either, but to go about proving it is gonna be a nightmare. A costly one at that.
Is it really worth the hassle and time?.
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Borghildar
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Posted - 2003.09.24 21:32:00 -
[27]
I can't even believe I'm reading this.
________________________________________________
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.24 21:36:00 -
[28]
Haha, Aleena you are a fool. You click "ACCEPT" every time you join the game.
You "ACCEPT" that:
1) You are not guaranteed service.
2) You cannot do ANYTHING about it if you don't get service.
That's it. End of story.
Call up your lawyer or the BBB and say "I signed a contract and now I don't like what it says! Help me!" They will laugh in your face.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.24 21:48:00 -
[29]
Nafres makes a very valid point. In the age of electronic commerce that would be one way of getting a refund.
From a legal stand point clicking "accept" is not the same as signing a contract. It just means you agree to the terms. Assuming that the terms of the agreement are met.
How many times have you clicked "I Agree" to Microsoft software and they get sued all the time. So, tell me how this is any different?
Asking for a refund is not as "crazy" of an idea as most of you make it out to be. It is the right of the person who purchase the product or service.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.24 21:57:00 -
[30]
Quote:
forced too by ccp no matter what the lackluster service we get is,except now there the small fish swimmin with sharks.
Forced to? Forced to? Do you have a CCP employee behind you forcing you to click "ACCEPT" every time that window pops up? I know I don't. I could pretty easily click decline.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Jojin
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:03:00 -
[31]
Without getting all complex on the issue, just keep it simple. Return the product to the retailer and state the program does not work. In the US, if you make a good presentation you should at least be able to get credit towards to purchase of another product. Alternatively choose the irate customer approach which should result the same just to keep the situation under control.
Kiss the 12.xx goodbye and consider it a lesson learned. Most credit card agencies do not deal with charge disputes under $50.00. It was a service charge and no matter how awful the service, you did receive it.
To be honest though, I really think it wouldnÆt be worth the time and effort to fight it. Just move on with life and block this horrid ordeal out of your memory.
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:05:00 -
[32]
Veruna,
Your going a bit over the top here. I don't think he meant "forced" as in the literal sense of the word.
We all know that software companies use EULAs as shields from legal backlash. That is a standard for the industry but it doesn't mean you give up all your rights.
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Halle Bristle
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:16:00 -
[33]
Quote:
From the EULA (The one you agree to EVERY TIME you start EVE up)
Ø
16. GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUMØ
Ø
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.Ø
Ø
The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of ReykjavÝk, Iceland, (HÚrasd¾mur ReykjavÝkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of ReykjavÝk, Iceland.Ø
Cool, does this means that the worst that can happen to a player not in Iceland is bannishment? So an US based player who somehow found a way to crash the server using the official client repeatly cannot be prosecuted by law because Iceland has no jurisdiction in US?
Do not think the BBB or attorney general have no power of CCP. The United Stated government did not sign an aggrement with CCP agreeing to resolve all dispute in Iceland. If you operate in the US you are bound by US laws. You can hide in another country where US cannot prosecute you but any asset in the US can still be frozen/siezed.
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Halle Bristle
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:33:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Kiss the 12.xx goodbye and consider it a lesson learned. Most credit card agencies do not deal with charge disputes under $50.00. It was a service charge and no matter how awful the service, you did receive it.
What credit cards do you use? All my credits honor disputes for any amount. Several years ago I was able to have 2 charges less then $43 reversed even after I received the good. I tried to cancel the service but could not get hold of any rep from the seller to do so. I told that to my credit company and dispute the charge on my current statement. My CC company did one better for me. Not only did they reverse the pending charge, they also credited me $43 for the amount from the previous statement.
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Caerdwyn
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:35:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Caerdwyn on 24/09/2003 22:38:50
Section 16 of the EULA is unenforcable. The moment you cross international lines with sales you become subject to local law.
So, if Simon and Schuster sell Eve in the US, the governing law is NOT Icelandic law. It's US law FOR THAT CUSTOMER. And in the US, if you fail to provide the service for which you entered a contract, you are in breach of contract. And no EULA in the world will save you from that.
If nothing else, the BBB complaint will begin to give CCP and SSI a bad reputation, and will make other distributors more reluctant to carry any CCP products. And the disputed credit card charges, if they become excessive, can and will result in Visa et al. refusing to do business with the people in question... or raising their cut of the transaction. SSI and CCP get punished financially for their inability to deliver. If it happens enough, the layoffs will begin, though I doubt anyone given their pink slip will say "I'm out of a job because I didn't perform". They'll find away to blame someone else. They always do.
It's not okay to bill someone for something you don't deliver, and no amount of EULA or dev-suckup will ever change that.
And that's the way it is, always has been, and forever shall be.
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Raucus
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:41:00 -
[36]
Quote:
The BBB has ABSOLUTELY NO authority outside of the USA and the AG has better things to do than chase some gaming company for $10.
Your complaints will fall on deaf ears, but good luck with your attempt anyway.
ummm... actualy you are not entirely correct.
Perhaps you should consider requesting other players to join you. The game is distributed in the USA and as such there are some laws that they must follow. I would suigegst asking as many people as possible to get in touch with you and then consider a class action suit against CCP and or their distributors in the USA. Despite what the usual 'lemmon' crowd say you can and do have rights if you have purchased this game...
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:42:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 22:47:08
oh get a clue dude. Just cancal your subscription. I'm sure you've been playing for more than a month, so why do YOU think your entitled to your money back on the game? You've used it.
Like other people have suggested, read the legally binding contract you've agreed to. You can't honestly think it's worth flying to Iceland to appear in court, to get back 13 bucks?
Do you know how many people say this sort of stuff? You get it in every MMORPG. I'd love to see you waste your time and money on this. Go right ahead, don't let us stop you.
Oh don't forget you have agreed to this:
"All subscription fees are in U.S. Dollars and are non-refundable unless expressly stated otherwise in the EULA."
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Raucus
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:45:00 -
[38]
Quote:
From the EULA (The one you agree to EVERY TIME you start EVE up)
Ø
16. GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUMØ
Ø
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.Ø
Ø
The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of ReykjavÝk, Iceland, (HÚrasd¾mur ReykjavÝkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of ReykjavÝk, Iceland.Ø
So, I think you'll have to turn your attentions THERE is you want this. And I do doubt you'll really get anywhere.
Also, before you start lashing out at those here that tell you you won't get far with your claims: Seriously, don't flame us, we're only telling you you can safe up your trouble.
Don't make me laugh..... just because somebody wrote something in the EULA doesnt mean anything, in both US and British law it is IMPOSSIBLE to sign away certain basic consumer rights, and although the AG may not be limited in what they can do outside their own state they can enforce both against CCP and their distributors US consumer law.
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:45:00 -
[39]
Edited by: SkyLeach on 24/09/2003 22:53:19
Zodiac, just so you know, EULA's arent worth the paper they arent written on.
over and over they get trashed and disregarded by courts in the USA and especially in the EU.
Not so long back, a single mother, who happened to be a legal student, took Microshaft to court disputing its EULA. She argued that it wasnt legally binding in anyway, and that her rights as a citizen, and rights as a consumer took president. Other things brought up where clauses about non returns of goods once packaging had been opened... but how the hell are you supposed to open the EULA and read it without opening the packaging!?!
Same with EVE... how am i supposed to read the EULA unless i buy the game in the first place?
i could argue that my product is faulty, and im not too sure but i think i can still return it under EU laws.. i might check. But only if i can prove the product to be faulty.. which it is, VERY. i would have to return it to SSI or CCP or the disrtibutors tho i think, not the store i bought it from, that time limit has passed.
ill go look this lot up and post back tommorrow after work. obviously it wont apply to Aleena (being USA) but i think its pretty sad when some people just roll over and dont fight for their rights or what they are entitled to. Glad you lot didnt fight in any world wars.
*edit, forgot to mention that the legal student... representing herself, against Microshafts uber legal people... she won. Hands down.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:49:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Don't make me laugh..... just because somebody wrote something in the EULA doesnt mean anything, in both US and British law it is IMPOSSIBLE to sign away certain basic consumer rights, and although the AG may not be limited in what they can do outside their own state they can enforce both against CCP and their distributors US consumer law.
You can't sign away your statutory rights. That's all.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:52:00 -
[41]
WhatÆs funny isà CCP will have paid a professional team of lawyers/solicitors to write this contract, but some of you people seem to think you know better.
By the way, wasnÆt it just decided in the US recently that sites are governed by the laws of the host country, not by that of the country from which it is viewed? Surely the same would apply here?
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corporal hicks
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:57:00 -
[42]
I thought i might add this point in. #
If you establish an Account, you represent that you are an adult thirteen (13) years of age or older and are either accepting the EULA on behalf of yourself or on behalf of your child, in which latter case you agree to the EULA with regard to your child and represent that you are also personally bound by the EULA.Ø
Ø
CCP views adults as people over 13 years old now I know for a fact in my Country Ireland a person that is under 18 years of age can not sign away his rights. He is bound to the law of the land. His rights are his and can not be signed away by him his parents or anyone else.
Just my 2 cents...also in my country a teen certificate on a game is anyone over 13 years of age so the eula contradicts itself and is not ment to be played by children. yet the license has provision to sign up for children which is illigal in european law. Video games for lack of a better word are covered by the same laws that apply to Video tapes and dvd media ect and have age certificates.
" Stay Frosty "
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 22:57:00 -
[43]
Quote:
By the way, wasnÆt it just decided in the US recently that sites are governed by the laws of the host country, not by that of the country from which it is viewed? Surely the same would apply here?
Good, the servers are hosted in london, and the EULA is hosted on my hard disk, in the North of England, not iceland. Not that US law applies in this country, but, niether does icelandic law.
if you get real mad, you could always row over in a dingy and sink their navy by throwing rocks at it. Well.. they call it a navy... but..
anyway, once you have done that, you can begin your land invasion. Take over Iceland, and once you own iceland, change the laws there.
MUHAHAHAHA!
All your long winter nights are belong to meh!
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:01:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:01:47
Just did a quick google search.. The UK Office of Fair trading (oft.gov.uk) won't help you. There ARE distance selling regulations (i.e. rights you have when buying on the Internet), but this is the list of exceptions:
personalised goods or goods made to a consumer's specification
goods that cannot, by their nature, be returned
perishable goods (eg flowers, fresh food)
un-sealed audio or video recordings or computer software
newspapers, periodicals or magazines
betting, gaming or lottery services
services that begin, by agreement, before the end of the cancellation period providing the supplier has informed the consumer before the conclusion of the contract, in writing or another durable medium, that he will not be able to cancel once performance of the services has begun with his agreement
goods or services, the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market.
Note "Gaming Services".
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:04:00 -
[45]
Edited by: SkyLeach on 24/09/2003 23:09:58
Ross, as corp has just proven above, EULA's always contain errors, override peoles rights, do not apply in the country they are aimed at etc etc.
I believe it is the same in most of the EU too corp, it is in the UK. HEll.. anyone looked that up for in iceland?
What if the adult didnt agree to the EULA? Do YOU read the EULA when you kids buy software? just to make sure your supoposed to press "accept" for them.
see what if the parent wasnt aware of the EULA, even knows what a EULA is, or knows what the hell EVE is, yet their 13 year old kid plays EVE? go figure.. the EULA does not apply to them.
Doors behind you, please pay the cashier $10 per word for our consultation, come again.
Gaming services in this country, refer to Gambling ross. As for:
"un-sealed audio or video recordings or computer software"
EVE was sealed. and the body you mentioned is not the only place a customer has to complain, we have many consumer groups over here. Hey.. get EVE a spot on TV... on watchdog 
i can see the cameras on CCP's doorstep now...
im not being serious there by the way, like they would send a camera crew to iceland for one copy of a game! but if a few hundered complained...
anyway, groups and organisations like that DO take up small claims and single complaints. There is also a lot of good advice on consumer law over here, its all over the net. the place that Ross went to, is usually for large claims and blatant abuses of consumer rights. The place to go to first is your LOCAL consumer group (trading standards). Visit your local town hall / council offices for more info.
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corporal hicks
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:05:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:01:47
Just did a quick google search.. The UK Office of Fair trading (oft.gov.uk) won't help you. There ARE distance selling regulations (i.e. rights you have when buying on the Internet), but this is the list of exceptions:
personalised goods or goods made to a consumer's specification
goods that cannot, by their nature, be returned
perishable goods (eg flowers, fresh food)
un-sealed audio or video recordings or computer software
newspapers, periodicals or magazines
betting, gaming or lottery services
services that begin, by agreement, before the end of the cancellation period providing the supplier has informed the consumer before the conclusion of the contract, in writing or another durable medium, that he will not be able to cancel once performance of the services has begun with his agreement
goods or services, the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market.
Note "Gaming Services".
Not a expert here mate but I think you might find gaming means gambling in that case.
" Stay Frosty "
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:07:00 -
[47]
Ross,
I don't think "Gaming Services" refers to online gaming. I am pretty sure they mean "forms of gambling".
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:08:00 -
[48]
Answer me this, SkyLeach... Do you honestly think this guy has the SLIGHTEST chance of getting any kind of refund?
By the way, just to note the EULA also says:
"Minor children may not establish an Account without the consent of a parent or guardian. If the user of EVEÖ is a minor, a parent or guardian must complete the registration process to establish an Account, in which case the parent or guardian takes full responsibility for all obligations under the EULA and for all activities of the child using the Account."
The dictionary term of minor is "Law. Being under legal age; not yet a legal adult.".
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:09:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Ross,
I don't think "Gaming Services" refers to online gaming. I am pretty sure they mean "forms of gambling".
True, it could mean that, but they've wrote it as "Gaming Services", which is exactly what this is, even if they did mean something else.
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:11:00 -
[50]
Ross,
They specifically mentioned "computer software".
I don't think I would lump online gaming in the same category as gambling.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:13:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:14:21
Quote:
Ross,
They specifically mentioned "computer software".
I don't think I would lump online gaming in the same category as gambling.
It is a "gaming service", and it is "computer software"... 
oh i love legal threads. Very entertaining
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:17:00 -
[52]
lol,
Yeah, legal documents tend to leave a lot of room for "loose" interpretations.
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:17:00 -
[53]
no, under UK law it means GAMBLING. and if CCP was providing gambling services to 13 year olds you can bet their ass wouldnt hit the court bench.
now as for this ross:
Quote:
"Minor children may not establish an Account without the consent of a parent or guardian. If the user of EVEÖ is a minor, a parent or guardian must complete the registration process to establish an Account, in which case the parent or guardian takes full responsibility for all obligations under the EULA and for all activities of the child using the Account."
The dictionary term of minor is "Law. Being under legal age; not yet a legal adult.".
What you have there, is a legal document, trying to impose legal responsibility / conditions on a child. Guess what?
YOU CANT.
you cant even do that in the USA. If you go get some ten year old kid to apply for a credit card and he goes and spends all the cash on it.. guess what?! hes not liable, the credit card conditions and small print do not apply to him, he is not liable, nor is his family. You know who is? THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY.
You cannot have a child agree to a legal contract that is binding in any way. a Child cannot make that judgement for themselves.
so, if as i said above, a child has bought eve, his parent dont know about it, or even know what a EULA is, and hes clicked that accept button a BILLION times.. the EULA does not apply to him.
INCUDING the bit about him not being able to click accept if he is under 13. because short of physically hampering him, the conditions do not apply. Be they ones binding him, or banning him from rights rules, regulations and conditions of service, quality, law etc etc.
he is not old enough to make that call for himself, in the eyes of the law anyway.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:19:00 -
[54]
Quote:
no, under UK law it means GAMBLING. and if CCP was providing gambling services to 13 year olds you can bet their ass wouldnt hit the court bench.
There's a law that says "Gaming Services" means gambling in the UK? hehe your comments get funnier each time you post
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:22:00 -
[55]
hehehe.. err yes Gaming services means Gambling in Consumer law.
It does, go look it up.
Now your funny for being a smartass dumbass. 
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:24:00 -
[56]
You say "Consumer law" and "look it up"... Do you mind telling me where you found this piece of daft information?
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:31:00 -
[57]
Edited by: SkyLeach on 24/09/2003 23:32:34
Yeah, college.
but no i have no legal qualifications, or merit. i have the legal ability of a dead koala.
But im 99% sure of this one, but as i said, go look it up and prove me right.
Think about it, whats been around the longest.. Computer games, or Gambling?
hell, ill go out on a limb and i bet Gaming services refers to Gambling under US law too. after all, your legal system and laws are based on ours, and Gambling is older than both of those institutions. Your talking about something that was ancient even by the time the Romans got into it... and you know whos got a lot of laws based on Roman law? yep.. us.
Now, go look it up Ross.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:37:00 -
[58]
Well, when I search for gaming services on the net, I get things like bygames from blueyonder.
I can, in fact find nothing that says "gaming services" by LAW means gambling. So what do you call a gaming service like blueyonder (since they themselves say they are a gaming service).
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:39:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:42:01
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:40:59
Quote:
No they are an ISP, my ISP infact :)
You need to look up consumer law and terms.
bygames isn't an ISP, thats telewests gaming service.
You say it means something other than what it says. It says Gaming Service... You say it means gambling, but can offer no shred of proof except what you say you heard in college lol. I've shown you even big players like telewest call their own game sub-cos a "Gaming Service" lol.
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:39:00 -
[60]
No they are an ISP, my ISP infact :)
You need to look up consumer law and terms.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:42:00 -
[61]
Quote:
Are you serious? Are you really going to sue somebody because you dont like a game? You better read the EULA before you start sueing anybody. There are many cool Americans out there, but your type makes americans look stupid.
hehe well said.
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Znaei
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:42:00 -
[62]
Are you serious? Are you really going to sue somebody because you dont like a game? You better read the EULA before you start sueing anybody. There are many cool Americans out there, but your type makes americans look stupid.
clagnuts> im drunk just come back from pirates night in spain , wtf i thought it was some eve guys getting together for a drink , turned out to be a feken real pirates show , doh |
corporal hicks
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:49:00 -
[63]
Quote:
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:42:01
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:40:59
Quote:
No they are an ISP, my ISP infact :)
You need to look up consumer law and terms.
bygames isn't an ISP, thats telewests gaming service.
You say it means something other than what it says. It says Gaming Service... You say it means gambling, but can offer no shred of proof except what you say you heard in college lol. I've shown you even big players like telewest call their own game sub-cos a "Gaming Service" lol.
Just a small point I presume Ross you are from the states yes?
If so try see the fact that the nevada gaming comission who control what in nevada????? ohhh gambling thats it stupid me!!!
Gaming in law is genrelly allways a referral to gambling. It has been since laws where written. Gaming as in computer games ect are covered by the same laws that cover videos/dvds ect in most countries of the world. Again I am not a lawyer but I did work as a shop manager for one of the biggest video shop chains in the world which means in my country anyway computer games were covered by the same laws that cover other media types.
" Stay Frosty "
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:52:00 -
[64]
Edited by: SkyLeach on 24/09/2003 23:54:41
Now you are proving how much you know.
Blueyonder is an ISP, Phone service, and Cable TV company.
http://www.blueyonder.co.uk
im not so mental i dont know who my ISP is ross..
you are probably looking at an old page or document. like.. 2 year old or more by the sound of it.
*edit
Quote:
Just a small point I presume Ross you are from the states yes?
If so try see the fact that the nevada gaming comission who control what in nevada????? ohhh gambling thats it stupid me!!!
Well put Corp! hehe made me smile :)
As for sueing anyone.. me and ross are just having a friendly spar of words and minds, note.. not flaming each other but discussing? amazing huh. As for topic starter.. who knows.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:53:00 -
[65]
No, I'm actually from the UK thank god.
I'm guessing you missed the part in the statement that said "Computer Software"? So even if you were right, it wouldn't help. Since EVE is DEFINATLY covered under computer software lol
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:56:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Ross on 24/09/2003 23:57:50
Quote:
Now you are proving how much you know.
Blueyonder is an ISP, Phone service, and Cable TV company.
http://www.blueyonder.co.uk
im not so mental i dont know who my ISP is ross..
you are probably looking at an old page or document. like.. 2 year old or more by the sound of it.
dude, blueyonder is from telewest.
oh, by the way, let me paste my /whois info from IRC
Ross is [email protected] * Ross
Ross is connecting from *@82-32-49-49.cable.ubr07.azte.blueyonder.co.uk
oh look, i use blueyonder.
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:56:00 -
[67]
Dude.. your from the UK and you dont know who the hell Blueyonder are?
My god!
you must be a BT mug. err i mean customer
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.24 23:59:00 -
[68]
Edited by: SkyLeach on 25/09/2003 00:05:23
hmm.. Telewests service group.. IE: internet, cable TV, telephone, is now Blueyonder. Has been for some time too.
Seen any Telewest vans within the past 2 maybe even 3 years? no?
Wonder why?
Seen plenty of Blueyonder vans tho?
Guess whos header is on the top of my phone bill? my cable Tv bill? my internet bill?
clue: it doesent have a "T" in it.
My ISP email address is not [email protected] never has been, its [email protected]
*Edit.. ok your partly right there, seems telewest still use "Telewest" (though nowadays its "telewest Broadband -- even for phone services", AND blueyonder, for all sorts, so we are both right :P
Blueyonder isnt a gaming service... its a service they offer tho.. to their Internet customers. Blueyonder is your ISP, Telewest owns your ISP. Your email would be [email protected] otherwise.
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:02:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Anara Valencia on 25/09/2003 00:03:22
Edited by: Anara Valencia on 25/09/2003 00:03:04
Znaei,
I fail to see how being "A Cool American" has any bearing on this subject.
You say that a lawsuit is stupid, maybe. But the person was only asking about a refund.
The fact that you label someone as "stupid" without reading the entire thread shows your own stupidity.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:02:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Ross on 25/09/2003 00:04:26
Ah okay, well you obviously know something that blueyonder don't. Because take a look at blueyonders corporate site:
"blueyonder is from Telewest Broadband"
Blueyonder seem to think they are from telewest. Although, I'm sure you know better rofl
Anyway, you keep staying from my main point, which was about the OFT. Even if gaming service doesn't cover it, computer software does.
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:08:00 -
[71]
Read my edit ross :P
im going to bed anyways, i have work in the morning. In Huddersfield... AT BLUEYONDER!
Nah only kidding, i do have work tho, which sucks, so im off to bed.
ill try dig out some reference on consumer law regards terms - if - i - really - must, tommorrow and post it.
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:09:00 -
[72]
Good Night, Skyleach.
I say let the issue die.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:11:00 -
[73]
okay, night dude. good debate
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Raucus
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:18:00 -
[74]
Quote:
Are you serious? Are you really going to sue somebody because you dont like a game? You better read the EULA before you start sueing anybody. There are many cool Americans out there, but your type makes americans look stupid.
No, I think they are going to sue because the goods sold are not fit for the purpose they were sold for....
Also....
The EULA is not visible until you sign up for the game... therefore you are required to open the package to read it.... that would be a very interesting discusion, particularly in the USA, I believe the EU has also made comments on this. Although comments are in no way binding they would be very influencial.
You mock someone because they wish to stand up for their rights....... I say good luck to them....
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Sylvius
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:20:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Sylvius on 25/09/2003 00:21:11
The sale of the box clearly took place inside the US, but neither CCP nor Simon & Shuster was involved in the sale. The EULA can't cover the sale of the box because neither party (or a third party) can alter the deal after the financial transaction was made.
The sale of the online service clearly took place in Iceland. You went to Iceland (online) and agreed, in Iceland, to abide by the EULA. The EULA had to be agreed to before the sale of the online game service, so it clearly does apply.
An online game lives and dies by its EULA. Every aspect of the financial transactions that keep online games running take place under the umbrella of the EULA, so the developers and distributors are not going to get that one wrong. The EULA warned you you might not get service, but you agreed to pay without even checking to see if you would.
The sale of the box is a completely different matter, but the agreement pursuant to the online service takes place entirely within Iceland. There's a parallel argument taking place with peer-to-peer file-sharing in North America. Downloading copyrighted material and allowing copyrighted material to be downloaded are both illegal inside the US. The activities take place inside the US, so US law applies. However, downloading copyrighted material is expressly permitted in Canada, so Canadians can download all they want. Canadian law also places the onus on the active copier, so sharing files is also expressly permitted in Canada. So, while the RIAA can go after American file-sharers, file-sharers in Canada are protected by Canadian law, even if they share files with Americans.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:23:00 -
[76]
Agree 100% Sylvius
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:28:00 -
[77]
Sylvius,
Your point has some merit. So, the the subscriber of the online account lives outside of Iceland then their laws don't apply.
Hence, the EULA is invalid. I know someone will say this only applies to the "pirated" material you mentioned.
Basically, what your saying is that if you don't live in that country then your not bound by its laws. This is another topic that can be "loosely" interpreted.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:43:00 -
[78]
Quote:
Sylvius,
Your point has some merit. So, the the subscriber of the online account lives outside of Iceland then their laws don't apply.
Hence, the EULA is invalid. I know someone will say this only applies to the "pirated" material you mentioned.
Basically, what your saying is that if you don't live in that country then your not bound by its laws. This is another topic that can be "loosely" interpreted.
I'm pretty sure the EULA says that all legal court action must take place in Iceland... So Icelandic court, Icelandic law.
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Raucus
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:47:00 -
[79]
 Quote:
Quote:
Sylvius,
Your point has some merit. So, the the subscriber of the online account lives outside of Iceland then their laws don't apply.
Hence, the EULA is invalid. I know someone will say this only applies to the "pirated" material you mentioned.
Basically, what your saying is that if you don't live in that country then your not bound by its laws. This is another topic that can be "loosely" interpreted.
I'm pretty sure the EULA says that all legal court action must take place in Iceland... So Icelandic court, Icelandic law.
American Ditributor..... American Law
British Distributor..... British law....
You can say whatever you want in a EULA (read Microsofts...) doesnt mean it's worth a damn.
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Anara Valencia
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:55:00 -
[80]
Ross,
It doesn't really matter. When we all signed up for our accounts there was no pop-up or splash screen that notified us exactly which country the server was located in and what "laws" would apply.
Websites are mirrored all over the world and without explicitly telling the end-users, it is their right to assume they are protected unless stated otherwise.
However, I say if really want to make a legal case of the whole matter. I would opt for discrimination and favortism lawsuit by CCP.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:56:00 -
[81]
American Ditributor..... American Law
British Distributor..... British law....
true, but it's not about the distrubutor. lol.
We're talking about the service. For which to take any legal action against, it would need to take place in an Icelandic court (Since you cannot summon them to an American or Bristish court, if YOU want to take legal action against THEM). So you would be bound to Icelandic law as I understand it.
You gotta love legal jargon.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 00:58:00 -
[82]
Point is, the US/UK have no power to demand CCP to appear in one of their courts.. If you wanted to sue them, you'd need to go to Iceland. So it doesn't matter if the servers were in the bloody South Pole, if you are going to an Icelandic court.
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Ezuriah
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Posted - 2003.09.25 01:00:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Ezuriah on 25/09/2003 01:02:36
Edited by: Ezuriah on 25/09/2003 01:02:25
I played Asheron's Call for many years, Crasheron as many of us called it. Every patch day there were always problems that make the problems in this game look like nothing. I, and thousands of others kept on playing it, knowing the issues would be resolved, and eventually they always were. I trust that CCP will do the same. No game is perfect, there will always be problems and the companies that make the games will do what they can to keep their product running as optimal as they can. Some issues take longer than others, depending on the complexity. There can be many variables which can cause a game to not perform the way it is intended. There could be a driver issue, there might be something corrupted in the OS files that wasn't obvious, there could be a problem with your ISP, or with one of the hops your connection routes to CCP, and of course, with any given patch, there will be problems. I know it sounds like the scene in the "Blues Brothers" movie where John Belushi recites all the exscuses to Carrie Fischer in the tunnel why he stood her up at their wedding, but those are the realities we as online gamers face. I realize none of this makes any difference to you, but these are just some of the reasons why a game won't work correctly. So, can I have your stuff? (j/k)
The Keepers Alliance |
Mustafa Ken'Yova
|
Posted - 2003.09.25 01:17:00 -
[84]
Quote:
Hey, if the CEO of TTI can sue CCP to get his way then I can make a complaint to get a refund.
They sell the game in the U.S. so they are bound by its laws as the same for any other country.
So, why not try.
LOL.
I'm sorry but I had to comment on this little gem. I really do not know *where* people come up with half the sh*t that is said on these forums, but please *know* the facts without a doubt before throwing such slander on a publically accessed medium.
That being said:
1.) You are a moron if you believe what you just wrote / replied with on the first page.
2.) "TTI's CEO" did *not* sue or in anyway bring legal action against CCP (laughs hysterically).
3.) You will not be doing anything except giving yourself a headache, CCP is not obliged in anyway to give your money back.
4.) You just started a sh*tstorm / flamewar and I hope you enjoy it.
...... |
Zodiac Laserstorm
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Posted - 2003.09.25 08:01:00 -
[85]
Now, now, be nice, no one is flaming (yet)
I must agree that I also wondered about thus "sueing by TTi" thing... because it keeps on comming, and not only here, but from all over.
Now I'm not into politics, I'm a freelance, I do my own stuff in the newbie corp and I'm happy with that, I think TTi are the belzebub of EVE or some such, but I hardly see anyone taking an online game THAT serious, that they would fly to Island for a court session.
Someone else said my name about something or the other a while ago, but since I don't live on these boards and it's water under the bridge, I'll just let it pass and say "Good on you"
Now, sorry for disrupting the flow, you where saying?
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.09.25 09:34:00 -
[86]
1) Ross read this. That should clear up your misunderstanding of "gaming";
2) The service is provided from within the UK and you do not pay CCP one penny for it. You pay a third party (name escapes me right now). Therefore in the UK at least, the section of the EULA that refers to "waiving your rights" (I paraphrase here) and accepting Icelandic jurisdiction is not legally enforceable. You in fact cannot waive your rights to UK law;
3) This is a dumb thread
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Bluebeard
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Posted - 2003.09.25 10:42:00 -
[87]
Quote:
Point is, the US/UK have no power to demand CCP to appear in one of their courts.. If you wanted to sue them, you'd need to go to Iceland. So it doesn't matter if the servers were in the bloody South Pole, if you are going to an Icelandic court.
CCP has assets in the UK (the servers), therefore a UK court has power over those assets.
I'm pretty sure that if they demanded CCP appeared in a UK court, then CCP would oblige.
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Bluebeard
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Posted - 2003.09.25 10:44:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Ross,
I don't think "Gaming Services" refers to online gaming. I am pretty sure they mean "forms of gambling".
But Eve Online is all about gambling - Every time I jump through a gate, I gamble that I won't get stuck on the other side.
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 11:37:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Ross on 25/09/2003 11:38:37
Quote:
1) Ross read this. That should clear up your misunderstanding of "gaming";
Thanks... But in one of my last posts I already said that even if that WAS correct... It is still covered under "Computer Software"...
Look, this is a complicated arguement, that's why CCP probably paid a lot to a firm to write the EULA... I'm not going to turn round and say I'm an expert at law. As far as I'm concerned, the people who wrote that EULA know more about law than I do (and more than most people here, I should think).
No one with half a brain would try and bring legal action against CCP. Anyone that tried would only be wasting large sums of their own money. I can't believe you think you have a case.
If you really want your monthly fee back that badly, then surely you can't afford to bring forward legal action?
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Toulak
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Posted - 2003.09.25 11:43:00 -
[90]
This post is completely pointless, CCP have themselves covered with the EULA its a contract between yourselves and CCP. You agree to the contract, you abide by its rules, no law can get around it.
You dont like it, tough luck basically and thats what any law firm you goto will say.
All you can do is quit playing, or send plenty of hate mail to CCP which they'll ignore and could possibly if it gets to an extreme sue you for a harrasment case.
Nuff said.
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SavX
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Posted - 2003.09.25 11:44:00 -
[91]
Edited by: SavX on 25/09/2003 11:47:50
If your going to sue anyone, sue Microsoft, they can afford it.
Don't Kill The Corp.. Kill the Suppliers. |
Ross
|
Posted - 2003.09.25 12:02:00 -
[92]
Quote:
Edited by: SavX on 25/09/2003 11:47:50
If your going to sue anyone, sue Microsoft, they can afford it.
evil mastermind
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Toulak
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Posted - 2003.09.25 12:03:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Toulak on 25/09/2003 12:06:58
Edited by: Toulak on 25/09/2003 12:05:01
As to the case of laws only apply in their country, this is untrue. There have been many cases where this was proved wrong with the internet.
One case is where a British website wrote a slanderous peice on an Australian buisnessman. The Australian then decided to sue the British website, the British law on slander is a lot less forgiving than the Australian law, and the British website tried to have the trial in the UK courts on the basis that the server was British and the peice was saved on that server and so Australia have no juristiction.
The Australian courts overruled this and went on with the case, the story was promptly taken off the website, and the case went ahead. They appealed but still were bound by Australian law because the claimant was Australian.
I cant remember the case name, but I do remember it from my law class, we disucussed not so long ago.
Internet law is still an unknown area for judges around the world. Once theres more cases to set precedents then we'll have a more solid "law" worldwide but until then its a blackhole area, and judges and lawyers have to tread carefully.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.09.25 12:26:00 -
[94]
There's actually a precedent in UK law which almost identically mirrors what has been discussed in this thread :
About 4-5 years ago all the UK bookmakers were starting to move offshore to avoid the betting tax. There were quite a few small one-man operations that had setup too. One of them got taken to court for not having a licence to operate in the UK - after many customer complaints. Their defence was that they weren't based in the UK and hence UK law did not apply - they believed that their EULA covered them. Now here's what the case eventually came down to :
a) Is the service, or the main part of the service operated from equipment located within the UK;
b) Have any monies been paid directly to this foreign company (based in Madeira IIRC);
The answer to a) was "Yes", although the defendants tried to claim that since you authenticated with a server in Madeira that wasn't the case.
The answer to b) was "No", a third party company based in the EU had been collecting monies on their behalf.
Result - UK law did in fact apply and they got shut down (or fined - can't remember which).
Anyway it's a dumb thread and I only posted this while I was waiting for the server to come back up
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Ross
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Posted - 2003.09.25 13:54:00 -
[95]
Again, who would bother for a 30 quid game, and 10 quid a month fee? It's hardly big bucks.
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Racknan
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Posted - 2003.09.25 15:27:00 -
[96]
Came looking for a good laugh, man did I get it!
10 stars for humor!!
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Ph0enix
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Posted - 2003.09.25 22:34:00 -
[97]
you know m8, if you had spent the time you have moaning, complaining, calling your god damn US rights officer etc doing a few hours overtime you would of made double the money you lost. are you really that much of a tight arse that you would go to all this effort to get $12 back?
well thats the US for you. will bomb the middle east to the ground without a seconds thought, but if one of its god blessed citizen feels they were cheated of $12....
well Iceland better have good anti aircraft defenses, thats all i can say
www.freetribes.net |
Znaei
|
Posted - 2003.09.26 05:41:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Znaei on 26/09/2003 05:43:13
Quote:
you know m8, if you had spent the time you have moaning, complaining, calling your god damn US rights officer etc doing a few hours overtime you would of made double the money you lost. are you really that much of a tight arse that you would go to all this effort to get $12 back?
well thats the US for you. will bomb the middle east to the ground without a seconds thought, but if one of its god blessed citizen feels they were cheated of $12....
well Iceland better have good anti aircraft defenses, thats all i can say
LOL. I¦ve already started to dig a bunker in the backyard . Just to be on the safe side :)
Ugh, why did I reply to this stupid post, bumping it to the top  stupid, stupid, stupid
clagnuts> im drunk just come back from pirates night in spain , wtf i thought it was some eve guys getting together for a drink , turned out to be a feken real pirates show , doh |
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