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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Shiraz Merlot
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:17:00 -
[91]
Isn't this how it's supposed to work? :) The key phrase here is "non-consensual PVP". The guy used canister theft to force you into a combat scenario that you were not equipped to handle.
Ding dong, and welcome to EVE.
nothing more to add, except that I had a *small* amount of sympathy for you getting caught out by this philosophical difference between Eve and other MMOs. That sympathy vanished when you used the word "sue".
/k
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Kel Shek
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:19:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Shiraz Merlot
Isn't this how it's supposed to work? :) The key phrase here is "non-consensual PVP". The guy used canister theft to force you into a combat scenario that you were not equipped to handle.
thats the thing though, he didn't force him into a combat scenario.
he gave him the option to initiate one, which he did, but then got it turned around on him.
~~~~~
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
~~William Blake |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:21:00 -
[93]
By the way, do you know why you are the one whining about this, and not anyone else?
Everyone else learned the game mechanics while they were getting the ISK together for a BS.
Not you
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:23:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 04/06/2006 09:24:27
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 04/06/2006 09:22:59
Originally by: HippoKing
By the way, do you know why you are the one whining about this, and not anyone else?
Everyone else learned the game mechanics while they were getting the ISK together for a BS.
Not you
HippoKings link wrecks Varia Net for unrepairable damage. 
---
The Eve Wiki Project |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:23:00 -
[95]
Originally by: HippoKing
rantings wasn't exactly accurate, but i meant your quotes along the lines of "EvE is ecstatically malevolent" and "EvE is sadistically and masochistically rated" compared to your other, helpful form of posting 
Oh... Well, they perfectly review EvE in not more than 5 words.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:26:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/06/2006 09:29:43
Originally by: Varia Net
Learn what? That it's dumb to defend cans, ...
No, you have learnt the number 1 rule in the Art of War.
Do not underestimate your enemies.
Like in a game of chess.
1. Is it safe for me to sit there?
2. Why does he want me to sit there?
You have also learnt that EvE is not very forgiving. 
Welcome to EvE. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Varia Net
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:28:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Varia Net on 04/06/2006 09:29:39
Originally by: HippoKing
By the way, do you know why you are the one whining about this, and not anyone else?
Everyone else learned the game mechanics while they were getting the ISK together for a BS.
Not you
Few noobs even know about this forum, let alone frequent it.
That's why there's no real debate in here, and lots of attacks in personam.
As to the gtc, whoever has the bucks can speed up things. There wouldn't be gtc if noone were to buy them. I bet some vets will be upset about the gtc, as the advantage they have by having start to play much earlier, is taken away to some degree.
As to the sueing, yes that was the weakest part of my post. But I've chosen to not edit the original post, and keep it as it is, with its flaws. 
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:32:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/06/2006 09:32:13
Originally by: Varia Net
As to the gtc, whoever has the bucks can speed up things.
Buying GTC to fund EvE ISKs is like buying extra and unnecessary pain. 
There used to be a whole debate about GTCs and ISKs. I told them, I didnt mind ppl buying/selling GTCs for ISKs. Would be funny to see newbs think bigger is better like other MMOs. Jump into Raven and got popped in five minutes later. Hurts more that way. Heheheh.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:35:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/06/2006 09:37:36
Here's why I think the OP is right:
Destroying someone's ship when that person is flagged for can theft should not lead to him getting kill rights on you as it is not an "illegal" kill. According to game documentation kill rights should only come into play when a kill was "illegal".
Hence you need to petition that person under "exploit" seeing how he's abusing a broken part of the flagging system here.
Old blog |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:35:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Varia Net
Few noobs even know about this forum, let alone frequent it.
That's why there's no real debate in here, and lots of attacks in personam.
Newbies get no special treatments in these forums. If their arguments is flawed, they get told it is. Some of them dont know how to listen to to players that know better, and hence the debate goes on forever without reaching any conclusion.
I dont care if you are new or not as long as you have good suggestions. There are a few newbies that have come up with very good suggestions this far. Yours is not one of them. Just accept it and move on.
---
The Eve Wiki Project |
Shiraz Merlot
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:37:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Shiraz Merlot on 04/06/2006 09:37:22
Originally by: Varia Net
So, basically, you're saying: let him steal the cans?
I say: NO!
I say YES! PvP is non-consensual.
also:
Originally by: Varia Net
... let the owner assess the real threat, and whether it's worth to defend his property, or necessary to MOVE OUT OF HIS OWN MISSION LOCATION . 
lol
what next, instanced dungeons?
/k
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Varia Net
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:37:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/06/2006 09:32:13
Originally by: Varia Net
As to the gtc, whoever has the bucks can speed up things.
Buying GTC to fund EvE ISKs is like buying extra and unnecessary pain.
There used to be a whole debate about GTCs and ISKs. I told them, I didnt mind ppl buying/selling GTCs for ISKs. Would be funny to see newbs think bigger is better like other MMOs. Jump into Raven and got popped in five minutes later. Hurts more that way. Heheheh.
You can't buy skills nor corp standings.
EVE is more fair than you think, as only assests can be bought.
Also, a gtc doesn't come for free. It's not like they can be printed at home, like monopoly money.
Furthermore, for every gtc sold, there are like 10 offers from uberrich vets. Not noobs, but vets buy em. 
And even more, I've not even created an alt, as some 'illustrious' vets surely would have, before selling their gtc. /me vomits
Anyway, this isn't the topic of this thread.
Do I feel just a lil' bit of compassion from your part?  Compared to the initial contempt.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:38:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/06/2006 09:36:56
Here's why I think the OP is right:
Destroying someone's ship whent hat person is flagged for can theft should not lead to him getting kill rights on you as it is not an "illegal" kill. According to game documentation kill rights should only come into play when a kill was "illegal".
Hence you need to petition that person under "exploit" seeing how he's abusing a broken part of the flagging system here.
Got a link to the game documentation saying this?
---
The Eve Wiki Project |
Valan
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:39:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Valan on 04/06/2006 09:40:54
Did you check the guys employment history? This would've given you a hint of his experience.
When you opened fire did you consider the possibility he would come back? If you did I'm assuming you assessed the risk and thought a level 3 loot can was worth it.
Knowing that he may return did you align for a warpable object? When he turned up in a Scorpion why didn't you run? A Raven is a nice ship but a Scorpion is a real *****. It scrambles, webs, jams, tanks and he already knows your ship. I could've scrambled you, webbed you and jammed you and left you sat there for a week. A character the same age as you could've done the same thing.
Not even gonna mention the guy in the HAC, stupid is as stupid does. Think you should've left him out of the arguement.
So you can see none of that has anything to do with skill points or equipment. Its common sense, you didn't think the situation through before committing yourself to an action. I'm very careful which fights I commit to. Not that I'm afraid of losing a ship I just don't see the point of entering into a fight I'm going to lose. Battles are won before they start, you have to calculate all the angles.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:40:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/06/2006 09:44:22
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/06/2006 09:36:56
Here's why I think the OP is right:
Destroying someone's ship whent hat person is flagged for can theft should not lead to him getting kill rights on you as it is not an "illegal" kill. According to game documentation kill rights should only come into play when a kill was "illegal".
Hence you need to petition that person under "exploit" seeing how he's abusing a broken part of the flagging system here.
Got a link to the game documentation saying this?
Asks the man with the eve-wiki sig ?
Anyway, check old dev blogs and patch notes where the can flagging mechanic and kill right addition got announced. You'll find them specifically mentioning "illegal" ship destructions only as source for killrights.
I'm too lazy to go hunt for a link.
However, I'm sure the thing actually has nothing to do with kill rights now I think of it.
The guy in the scorp simply returned within 15 minutes and used his agression flag caused by the op opening fire on him. If you get flagged due to can stealing and the can owner agresses you you get to return fire, that's only natural and should not be changed.
I do think however that anyone already flagged to the person that agresses him should not be able to carry over agression rights under the flag carried by that person when he changes ships. Entrapment using these means is rather lame imo, and has very little to do with being some last bastion of non-consensual pvp in Eve like some people here are making it look
Old blog |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:41:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Asks the man with the eve-wiki sig ?
Anyway, check old dev blogs and patch notes where the can flagging mechanic and kill right addition got announced. You'll find them specifically mentioning "illegal" ship destructions only as source for killrights.
I'm too lazy to go hunt for a link.
Im lazy too, so im going to assume its not an exploit until someone digs out some real info on it.
---
The Eve Wiki Project |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:47:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Asks the man with the eve-wiki sig ?
Anyway, check old dev blogs and patch notes where the can flagging mechanic and kill right addition got announced. You'll find them specifically mentioning "illegal" ship destructions only as source for killrights.
I'm too lazy to go hunt for a link.
Im lazy too, so im going to assume its not an exploit until someone digs out some real info on it.
That's the best way to get bans in Eve you know .
Like I said, I'm sure there ere no killrights at play here. But if there were, pleading ignorance doesn't help.
Old blog |
Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:47:00 -
[108]
oh ffs.
j0 won the thread.
jenny described EVE perfectly.
you got a problem, deal with it. eye for an eye. start doing the same thing he makes if that makes you satisfied. I'm not seeing any wrong doing here, except you coming whining in the forums that you don't like that CCP removed your training weels.
now i'm going to bed, again, cuz I'm all hurting.
-------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:48:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Varia Net
Do I feel just a lil' bit of compassion from your part? Compared to the initial contempt.
I do have compassion. Think one of the compassionate players in EvE. 
My only belief is that newbs/noobs should die often and as much as possible until they have all learnt to accept losses and not cry about it anymore. EvE does hurt her players when they lose things. One year of work, all pop in 5 minutes do hurt. You are no different, not spared by the ruthlessness of EvE.
You had to be subjugated by Vets. I also have to subjugate to my CEOs and alliance leaders like some servant. In forums, we are also at mercy of Kieron and his Mod cronies. We all just have to learn to accept being controlled and pushed around. Just adapt to them or find an in-game mechanics to unleash your malicity on others.
Learn and be happy. Not accepting losses and be condemned to desolation.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:51:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
That's the best way to get bans in Eve you know .
Like I said, I'm sure there ere no killrights at play here. But if there were, pleading ignorance doesn't help.
I dont do any of the things the OP talks about myself, so i dont need to worry.
---
The Eve Wiki Project |
Dave White
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:51:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Varia Net
Do I feel just a lil' bit of compassion from your part? Compared to the initial contempt.
I do have compassion. Think one of the compassionate players in EvE.
My only belief is that newbs/noobs should die often and as much as possible until they have all learnt to accept losses and not cry about it anymore. EvE does hurt her players when they lose things. One year of work, all pop in 5 minutes do hurt. You are no different, not spared by the ruthlessness of EvE.
You had to be subjugated by Vets. I also have to subjugate to my CEOs and alliance leaders like some servant. In forums, we are also at mercy of Kieron and his Mod cronies. We all just have to learn to accept being controlled and pushed around. Just adapt to them or find an in-game mechanics to unleash your malicity on others.
Learn and be happy. Not accepting losses and be condemned to desolation.
QFT
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.04 09:56:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Anyway, check old dev blogs and patch notes where the can flagging mechanic and kill right addition got announced. You'll find them specifically mentioning "illegal" ship destructions only as source for killrights.
Rod is right about killrights. Killrights appear when illegal kills are made. Think OP got aggression counter flagged after killing the thief. Thief came back to kill him on aggression timer and not killright, IIRC.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Pax Uranus
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Posted - 2006.06.04 10:04:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Varia Net
The buddy had his setting thus set, that the warning box did not show up. Everyone knows that this can be set..? No, apparently not everyone does.
IF my buddy had no shown up,
I would have lost my precious ship to the noobbasher.
Well, if your buddy hadn't of shown up, you two would only have been out your kitted Raven. However, since he did show up and brainfarted, you two are now out a HAC with pricey fittings.
So, I guess his gallantry and both of you guys' lack of knowledge/experience/clue resulted in a few hundred million more ISK down the drain.
On the bright side, that's only a few GTCs more that you need to buy and then sell for ISK. 
On an even brighter side, you've given me great material for my next Eve Forum Bingo set. Thanks. |
Drako Krakin
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Posted - 2006.06.04 10:09:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Valan
Edited by: Valan on 04/06/2006 09:40:54
Not even gonna mention the guy in the HAC, stupid is as stupid does. Think you should've left him out of the arguement.
For the record - I am the one that lost the HAC and I earned every isk that I ever got. While I have been playing for 8 months, I have not done much PvP. I did not lose my HAC through some borked flagging system or kill-rights system. I lost it because I screwed up. Awhile ago in a moment of stupidity I turned off pop-ups (they have been set back on NOW). I should have known better than this and I just didnÆt think it through to the logical conclusion (my ship loss).
The term noob and vet are irrelevant in this game - everybody in this game is a noob at one thing or another. Great PvPers often donÆt know anything about manufacturing (thus they are a noob at manufacturing). Me I do missions and complexes; am a noob at PvP, but a vet at missions? Maybe, but the way to find out is to try it. If you fail then suck up your losses and move on.
Eve offers a multitude of "career Paths". The guy that killed me has chosen his and that is fine. I donÆt like it or respect it, but that is his choice and it works for him. So be it. By the way he has only been playing 1 year, not much more than me.
In this case I tried to help a friend in a PvP scenario. Guess what? Based upon the end result I have to assume that PvP may not be my best career path. Do I mourn the loss of my ship? Sure I do, but I learned something and moved on. Somebody in local chat said that ôa cheap lesson is forgotten and an expensive one remembered.ö Very true.
To Varia Net who is my friend I have to say let this go û it was within Eve¦s parameters and allowed (not liked). Lessons were learned and life ain¦t fair. But the game works fine. Time to let it go.
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Pax Uranus
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Posted - 2006.06.04 10:16:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Drako Krakin
(snip)
I should have known better than this and I just didnÆt think it through to the logical conclusion (my ship loss).
(snip)
The term noob and vet are irrelevant in this game - everybody in this game is a noob at one thing or another.
(snip)
Do I mourn the loss of my ship? Sure I do, but I learned something and moved on. Somebody in local chat said that ôa cheap lesson is forgotten and an expensive one remembered.ö Very true.
Holy crap. An actual mea culpa post. I snipped and left the parts that I found quite refreshing, given the normal attitude of online gamers. Very rare to find people with the sack to man up and say "Yep, my bad. I'll learn from this." Mostly, it's always people looking around for someone else to blame since there's no way it could ever ever ever ever ever be their own fault.
So, kudos to you for at least some enlightened sence of self-awareness.
Holy crap. I actually sounded partially mature in this post. Someone shoot me, please. (Just don't pod, k?) |
Valan
|
Posted - 2006.06.04 10:24:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Drako Krakin
Originally by: Valan
Edited by: Valan on 04/06/2006 09:40:54
Not even gonna mention the guy in the HAC, stupid is as stupid does. Think you should've left him out of the arguement.
For the record - I am the one that lost the HAC and I earned every isk that I ever got. While I have been playing for 8 months, I have not done much PvP. I did not lose my HAC through some borked flagging system or kill-rights system. I lost it because I screwed up. Awhile ago in a moment of stupidity I turned off pop-ups (they have been set back on NOW). I should have known better than this and I just didnÆt think it through to the logical conclusion (my ship loss).
The term noob and vet are irrelevant in this game - everybody in this game is a noob at one thing or another. Great PvPers often donÆt know anything about manufacturing (thus they are a noob at manufacturing). Me I do missions and complexes; am a noob at PvP, but a vet at missions? Maybe, but the way to find out is to try it. If you fail then suck up your losses and move on.
Eve offers a multitude of "career Paths". The guy that killed me has chosen his and that is fine. I donÆt like it or respect it, but that is his choice and it works for him. So be it. By the way he has only been playing 1 year, not much more than me.
In this case I tried to help a friend in a PvP scenario. Guess what? Based upon the end result I have to assume that PvP may not be my best career path. Do I mourn the loss of my ship? Sure I do, but I learned something and moved on. Somebody in local chat said that ôa cheap lesson is forgotten and an expensive one remembered.ö Very true.
To Varia Net who is my friend I have to say let this go û it was within Eve¦s parameters and allowed (not liked). Lessons were learned and life ain¦t fair. But the game works fine. Time to let it go.
Thats how to deal, although don't let it put you off PvP. You only learn through mistakes, the trick is not repeating them. I suggest making them in a cheaper ship. We've all done it, only reason I have ever lost ships is by doing something stupid.
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Varia Net
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Posted - 2006.06.04 10:24:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Pax Uranus
Originally by: Drako Krakin
(snip)
I should have known better than this and I just didnÆt think it through to the logical conclusion (my ship loss).
(snip)
The term noob and vet are irrelevant in this game - everybody in this game is a noob at one thing or another.
(snip)
Do I mourn the loss of my ship? Sure I do, but I learned something and moved on. Somebody in local chat said that ôa cheap lesson is forgotten and an expensive one remembered.ö Very true.
Holy crap. An actual mea culpa post. I snipped and left the parts that I found quite refreshing, given the normal attitude of online gamers. Very rare to find people with the sack to man up and say "Yep, my bad. I'll learn from this." Mostly, it's always people looking around for someone else to blame since there's no way it could ever ever ever ever ever be their own fault.
So, kudos to you for at least some enlightened sence of self-awareness.
Holy crap. I actually sounded partially mature in this post. Someone shoot me, please. (Just don't pod, k?)
He's a great man indeed.
And now you'll perhaps understand my frustration, for calling him to my assistance and thus making him lose 550m isk worth of stuff (HAC plus faction gear and T2 stuff),
and my utter contempt of Davlin Lot'ze and his likings,
and my suggestion that can theft + change of ship removes right the attack the defending owner of cans.
I'd rather have the original system back!, where pirates could warp in to steal can. More bounty and no PvP ship versus PvE.
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Aodha Khan
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Posted - 2006.06.04 10:32:00 -
[118]
CCP does protect noobs by placing them in a NPC corp to start with. They are 99.9% safe.
WoW is waiting for you ....
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. |
Cotton Tail
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Posted - 2006.06.04 10:34:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Cotton Tail on 04/06/2006 10:41:55
Originally by: Varia Net
He's a great man indeed.
And now you'll perhaps understand my frustration, for calling him to my assistance and thus making him lose 550m isk worth of stuff (HAC plus faction gear and T2 stuff),
and my utter contempt of Davlin Lot'ze and his likings,
and my suggestion that can theft + change of ship removes right the attack the defending owner of cans.
I'd rather have the original system back!, where pirates could warp in to steal can. More bounty and no PvP ship versus PvE.
It's not your intent that annoyed people, it was the wording of the original message which came over with the full force of a spolit child. Atleast you calmed down in your posts after that and it became a lot more reasonable. Yes the can-flagging system is a little exploitable against people who don't yet understand the rules or are just too lazy to pay proper attention, but its all a good learning experience. Just remember to stick to the rules of EVE where you don't fly what you cannot afford to lose. I just hope you had insurance on that raven (shame that won't help the HAC though)?
Edit: My spelling is awful.
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Tehyarec
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Posted - 2006.06.04 10:43:00 -
[120]
A few comments. If you attack flagged guy, as far as I know he doesn't get actual kill rights, just the 15-minute aggression timer. As such, why not play it safe and dock until the 15 minutes is over? Not that can stealer aggroers wouldn't be lowlifes anyway, with that I agree.
But your friend really should have known that he can't attack the guy without getting Corcordokkened. If it doesn't flash red, don't attack it. Simple. If he can fly a HAC he should know this. Unless he bought the character. In which case he shouldn't fly something so expensive without knowing what the hell he is doing.
Also, on the comments about relatively new players flying battleships. Well, I flew a battleship when I was about a month into the game. Of course some think it is too early, but it really depends on what you do with it. For mission running it does a lot better than a Battlecruiser at that point due to extra survivability. And I could fit most tanking modules at that point. Couldn't use large hybrids, but for level 3s they would have been a waste anyway. So whether or not it's "too early" to fly something is all relative, at least as long as you have half a clue what you're doing.
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