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Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
141
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Posted - 2014.05.26 13:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi there,
I haven't seen much talk about whether the Barghest could work as a missile BS for Incursions. I don't run Incursions (although I'm planning to), but I'd like to hear the opinions of more experienced players in this matter. It's a faction BS after all...
Myself I've come to this:
Seem like the Barghest has interesting bonuses and attributes. One of the so called drawbacks of missiles in Incursions is delayed damage application, but these missiles have 3 times their usual speed... The ship is shield tanked, has 6 mids and 6 lows and a spare highslot -which seems nice to fit a tank and sensor modules for example, or other utilities or EWAR- and is very fast, mitigating the damage it would take itself, as the Tempest and Tempest FI do.
One could argue about its wasted bonus for point range, but also are other bonuses on other ships made for active tanking (Maelstrom, Hyperion), right? I have seen some numbers in the Mordus ships' topic and seems despite the flight time penalty those missiles still have increased range (which combined with flight speed allows for more effective sniping), and still has (marginally) more effective launchers than the Golem or the RNI.
So, veteran Incursion runners: what do you think about this ship? Might it be a good missile BS? Desirable on fleets? Welcome on fleets? Subpar? Not worth it? Thanks in advance! |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1101
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Posted - 2014.05.26 17:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Missile won't be in the sniper group that's for sure. It most likely won't get into the most shiny fleets but might get spots elsewhere. The damage is still delayed and the lack of any application bonus means you will have to burn all your rigs on rigors and some mids on TP. Add a MWD and you are left with 3 meds to do your shield tank. You will have to go at least moderately shiny or bust.
What will kill it is the presence of much better boat for the same/lower price. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
869
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Posted - 2014.05.26 17:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
When a plain T1 Raven would do better for any kind of PVE the question would be why... Even if it wasn't going to cost over a billion ISK. I'm sure some people will fly it because it looks cool but that would be the only reason. I'll admit it looks awesome! The problem with incursions is the bounty doesn't pay out to the coolest looking fleet. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
280
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Posted - 2014.05.27 07:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Add a MWD and you are left with 3 meds to do your shield tank. Given that there are HQ fits with only single slot shield tanks that's not necesarily a problem... However the delayed damage is going to make them sub-par in the sniper groups and, competing with the Mach's and 'mares they're unlikely to find a place... And they lack the utility of the Vindicator, so they aren't going to replace them in the close-range group. If you're considering the Barghest for Incursions therefore, my advice would have to be to train Amarr BS and Lasers... and buy a Nightmare.*
*Assuming that the missile focussed ship indicates a Caldari skilled pilot. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
430
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Posted - 2014.05.27 08:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Scram range bonus is completely wasted in incursions, and the DPS is going to be fairly low compared to something like a vindicator. Without a TP bonus it doesn't help the fleet as much as a golem would, and really doesn't do that much more damage.
It'll probably be less desired in incursions than the rattlesnake, which is getting a pretty hefty DPS buff when fit for close-range work...and nobody wants rattlesnakes. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
1585
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Posted - 2014.05.27 09:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Add a MWD and you are left with 3 meds to do your shield tank. Given that there are HQ fits with only single slot shield tanks that's not necesarily a problem... However the delayed damage is going to make them sub-par in the sniper groups and, competing with the Mach's and 'mares they're unlikely to find a place... And they lack the utility of the Vindicator, so they aren't going to replace them in the close-range group. If you're considering the Barghest for Incursions therefore, my advice would have to be to train Amarr BS and Lasers... and buy a Nightmare.* *Assuming that the missile focussed ship indicates a Caldari skilled pilot. Having flown one on sisi I can say the delay is negligible, the tight pg/cap will be the limiting factor, and the low dps (for a pirate bs) "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT."
Unsuccessful At Everything |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
141
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Posted - 2014.05.27 11:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Having flown one on sisi I can say the delay is negligible, the tight pg/cap will be the limiting factor, and the low dps (for a pirate bs) That's what I though too, those missiles are so fast they're closer to turrets than to missiles, excepting they don't have to worry about transversal. DPS is more on the line of Navy BS and Golem rather than Pirate ones (unless CCP decides to give it an 8th launcher so its hardpoints become symmetrical on the model), but seems like a good shield+speed tanker.
Frostys Virpio wrote:Add a MWD and you are left with 3 meds to do your shield tank. I haven't seen many Incursion fits with a propulsion mod, even on slow boats. The Barghest has a base speed of 148 m/s, only the Machariel is faster. If you wanted top speed, perhaps an AB would do (especially if you're in a new Nightmare). I'm not an expert on Incursions though, but seems reasonable to me not needing a prop mod. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
280
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Posted - 2014.05.27 12:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:I haven't seen many Incursion fits with a propulsion mod, even on slow boats. The Barghest has a base speed of 148 m/s, only the Machariel is faster. If you wanted top speed, perhaps an AB would do (especially if you're in a new Nightmare). I'm not an expert on Incursions though, but seems reasonable to me not needing a prop mod. All HQ fits will fit an MWD (the Nightmare may be able to get away with a high meta AB after the change (and I look forward to the reduced need to find a cap buddy that will offer)) because the distance between gates is significant - for Vanguards IIRC such mods aren't needed. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1102
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Posted - 2014.05.27 16:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote: Given that there are HQ fits with only single slot shield tanks that's not necesarily a problem...
You have examples of that because I don't really remember anything under 2 high end invuln + EM hole rig on pirate BS. The Bhargest won't even have the luxury of using rigs as it needs all the rigor it can get. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
25
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Posted - 2014.05.28 16:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
As an incursion FC, I won't take them. They don't have the deeps to make them worth the missiles issues, apply that DPS poorly without massive support reworking as far as fleet ewar balance. Points against them:
1: The base hp numbers are meh for a pirate BS 2: only 7 launchers with a 25% damage bonus @ max skills and no application bonus 3: delayed damage, hell in contests 4: No usefull EWAR bonus 5: slippery slope for allowing in missiles in good communities
Points in their favor 1: non-stick coating. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
25
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Posted - 2014.05.28 16:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jacob Holland wrote: Given that there are HQ fits with only single slot shield tanks that's not necesarily a problem...
You have examples of that because I don't really remember anything under 2 high end invuln + EM hole rig on pirate BS. The Bhargest won't even have the luxury of using rigs as it needs all the rigor it can get. Have personally flown no-DCU single invuln single rig as an anchor without problems. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
78
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Posted - 2014.05.28 19:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Well from the POV from a channel that is actually looking for good missile pilots:
For HQ:
- the delayed dps only makes them practical at CQC targets, wasting the hole damage at range advantage - raw dps compared other high dps close range options isn't that stellar on most hulls - they are less effective in contests by the delayed damage - proper painting and webing on targets can be a problem in many fleets, reducing the theoretical dps output at medium range most of the time
For VGs:
- standard shield doctrines are based around a alpha setup with a lot of sensor boosters, missile hulls fit hardly into that concept, since there is a lack of painting at medium range and a lack of webing at close range(to field more sensor boosters and TCs) and to powerful painting/webbing is even contra productive during contests - The only site where flight time is hardly a issue(NCOs) are the least flown by standard shield setups(by the lack of webs and painters) and most of the missile damage would be wasted by shooting frigs
OIC uses missile hulls(armor CNR and fleet phoon) for VGs, because our doctrine in more focused on max dps(by a very big sentry focus) and max tackle/painting to even one volley frigs with sentry based DPS and archive maximal results at medium and close range with sentry DPS what also works surprisingly good in contests. In such a environment, missile hulls actually work fairly well, applied dps is nearly 100% at medium and close range with fury CM and since the fleet concept is more build around raw dps than alpha, flight time becomes less of a issue against ranged targets.
I think WTM takes shield fitted missile hulls, however not really as preferred option.
So why does OIC look for missile hulls?
- the fleet phoon and rattlesnake are not pure missile platforms but split weapon systems, what is less of a dps loss during contests, since the focus fire of drones or drones + artillery still deals respectable dps and alpha even if a missile volley ends up wasted(and the missile pilot has to pay more attention to make his volleys and alpha count, it is actually a lot harder to play with a missile hull in contests) - they reduce the need for remote tracking links in the fleet - I want to see if we can really utilize the highest medium range damage dealer in the game(fleet phoon) properly and I see gre |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1102
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Posted - 2014.05.28 19:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jacob Holland wrote: Given that there are HQ fits with only single slot shield tanks that's not necesarily a problem...
You have examples of that because I don't really remember anything under 2 high end invuln + EM hole rig on pirate BS. The Bhargest won't even have the luxury of using rigs as it needs all the rigor it can get. Have personally flown no-DCU single invuln single rig as an anchor without problems.
That still require a rig and I'm guessing ti was a nightmare. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
25
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Posted - 2014.05.28 19:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:James Baboli wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jacob Holland wrote: Given that there are HQ fits with only single slot shield tanks that's not necesarily a problem...
You have examples of that because I don't really remember anything under 2 high end invuln + EM hole rig on pirate BS. The Bhargest won't even have the luxury of using rigs as it needs all the rigor it can get. Have personally flown no-DCU single invuln single rig as an anchor without problems. That still require a rig and I'm guessing ti was a nightmare. Mach. T1 em rig, t2 burst rig, pith A invuln Geno set too. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Asset Distribution Corp
62
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Posted - 2014.06.01 10:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Unless there's a 100000% bonus to missile speed, it won't get a spot in fleet. Nightmares have more flexibility, vindis have more dps, machs have more alpha, and ravens (for those very newbros) has better application. |
Sentenced 1989
Quantum Anomaly Corporation
64
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 20:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
I haven't taken missile ship in fleet for 2 years, not going to start taking them now.
I would rather take Navy Harby over Golem even though we only use Marauders.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 11:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:Komodo Askold wrote:I haven't seen many Incursion fits with a propulsion mod, even on slow boats. The Barghest has a base speed of 148 m/s, only the Machariel is faster. If you wanted top speed, perhaps an AB would do (especially if you're in a new Nightmare). I'm not an expert on Incursions though, but seems reasonable to me not needing a prop mod. All HQ fits will fit an MWD (the Nightmare may be able to get away with a high meta AB after the change (and I look forward to the reduced need to find a cap buddy that will offer)) because the distance between gates is significant - for Vanguards IIRC such mods aren't needed.
MIGHT? It will be faster than some of the other Battleships even with a Rep fleet 100MN AB. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 11:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Unless there's a 100000% bonus to missile speed, it won't get a spot in fleet. Nightmares have more flexibility, vindis have more dps, machs have more alpha, and ravens (for those very newbros) has better application.
Why in hell you say raven has better application? The battleship with application bonus is the typhoon. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
901
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 11:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Unless there's a 100000% bonus to missile speed, it won't get a spot in fleet. Nightmares have more flexibility, vindis have more dps, machs have more alpha, and ravens (for those very newbros) has better application. Why in hell you say raven has better application? The battleship with application bonus is the typhoon. The Raven has a velocity bonus (Debatable if this helps). This Barghest doesn't even have this. Point is neither one will make it into a decent incursion fleet.
The only thing this ship has going for it in PVE is it looks nice. |
Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
223
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Posted - 2014.06.02 12:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Unless there's a 100000% bonus to missile speed, it won't get a spot in fleet. Nightmares have more flexibility, vindis have more dps, machs have more alpha, and ravens (for those very newbros) has better application. Why in hell you say raven has better application? The battleship with application bonus is the typhoon.
CNR has explosion radius bonus (the more useful) Typhoon has explosion velocity bonus (a bit less useful) Regular raven has just RoF and missile speed bonuses (RoF is just base dps bonus and missile speed is .. well .. so-so bonus in pve) Navy Typhoon has just missile damage and projectile RoF bonuses.
The Mordus BS extraordinary speed bonus means that if there is more than one thing shooting at a single target it wastes less firepower. For a single Mordus BS the missiles can travel ~170 km before next volley leaves launchers. But single Mordus BS is not that optimal to have around in incursions.
Problem is dps. Even with fury (which has appliaction issues against incursion targets) you end up below Nightmare / Marachiel which apply their damage instantly and can be good at frigs in distance (unlike missiles).
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6662
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 15:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:As an incursion FC, I won't take them. They don't have the deeps to make them worth the missiles issues, apply that DPS poorly without massive support reworking as far as fleet ewar balance. Points against them:
1: The base hp numbers are meh for a pirate BS 2: only 7 launchers with a 25% damage bonus @ max skills and no application bonus 3: delayed damage, hell in contests 4: No usefull EWAR bonus 5: slippery slope for allowing in missiles in good communities
Points in their favor 1: non-stick coating.
Out of curiousity, are there any existing missile boats that would be found acceptable?
And if not, what would be required to make them usable in an incursion? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
326
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 15:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
The barghest has probably the lowest DPS of all pirate BS. Especially after you account for missiles horrible ability to apply that DPS to even same sized targets. The frig/cruiser get decent dps compared to their counterparts, I don't understand why the BS gets the shaft when It comes to its dps.
8.75 effective launchers is pathetic. The new Rattlesnake gets 7.5 launchers + 7.5 drones. The snake will have 85% of the Bargy's dps without even launching its drones.
It needs 8 launchers and a 7.5% damage bonus. That would bring it up to 11 effective launchers, which Is about even with every other pirate BS. And considering it gets no application bonus and will probably not have room for TP's about 20% of that dps will be wasted even on same sized targets unless they are double webbed with their MWD on. That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
28
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 16:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Out of curiousity, are there any existing missile boats that would be found acceptable?
And if not, what would be required to make them usable in an incursion?
It depends on fleet focus and site type. For vanguards, with the community I currently FC for, no. And baring a massive change to missile or contest mechanics, almost everywhere else will also be a no. For assaults, given the scarcity of BCs/t3s in incursions, the t1 BC & t3 missile boats may be acceptable for NCN fleets. Of course, Naga/talos/Nado are preferred in shiny fleets. For HQs, SNI or Rattlesnakes are decent ships to anchor in under influence, and tengu drone bunnies are sometimes used if nothing better is available. Once again, for shiny fleets, these are entirely out baring a massive change in mechanics.
This is because incursion rats hit MWD speeds without sig bloom, have sub sized signatures and payout goes to highest actual HP damage in a contest. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
433
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 19:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:This is because incursion rats hit MWD speeds without sig bloom According to all the wikis I've read, they have the same sig bloom as players when using their MWD. Is that no longer true? |
Yaz ISK
Didn'twantthatscimianyway Northern Associates.
0
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Posted - 2014.06.02 19:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:James Baboli wrote:This is because incursion rats hit MWD speeds without sig bloom According to all the wikis I've read, they have the same sig bloom as players when using their MWD. Is that no longer true?
Hes bad. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
28
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Posted - 2014.06.02 20:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yaz ISK wrote:Chris Winter wrote:James Baboli wrote:This is because incursion rats hit MWD speeds without sig bloom According to all the wikis I've read, they have the same sig bloom as players when using their MWD. Is that no longer true? Hes bad. From about a year of FCing them, and most of that being an eager beaver of a theorycrafter, as well as watching damage application, lock speeds and so on, if they ever did get such a sig bloom, it has not been applicable since the early days of incursions. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
622
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 06:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
IIshira wrote:The Raven has a velocity bonus (Debatable if this helps). This Barghest doesn't even have this.
I am sorry - what? The Barghest has the highest velocity bonus in game (at the expense of flight time duration), plus highest missile alpha in game. The problem is small drone bay and no damage application bonus. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15771
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 07:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:The barghest has probably the lowest DPS of all pirate BS. Especially after you account for missiles horrible ability to apply that DPS to even same sized targets. The frig/cruiser get decent dps compared to their counterparts, I don't understand why the BS gets the shaft when It comes to its dps.
8.75 effective launchers is pathetic. The new Rattlesnake gets 7.5 launchers + 7.5 drones. The snake will have 85% of the Bargy's dps without even launching its drones.
It needs 8 launchers and a 7.5% damage bonus. That would bring it up to 11 effective launchers, which Is about even with every other pirate BS. And considering it gets no application bonus and will probably not have room for TP's about 20% of that dps will be wasted even on same sized targets unless they are double webbed with their MWD on.
You can't compare effective launchers quite so directly. With all V skills, a T2 Cruise Launcher does 60 DPS with T1 ammo, 69 DPS with Navy Faction and 85 DPS with T2. A T2 Tachyon Beam does 46 DPS with T1 Multi, 52 DPS with Navy Multi and 53 with Gleam.
A Barghest with 11 effective launchers would be doing 935 missile DPS before any damage mods. 3 Navy BCUs would take it up to 1628 DPS out to 160Km.
That might be just a smidgen unbalanced.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Songbird
86
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Posted - 2014.06.03 09:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:[quote=Kaarous Aldurald] For assaults, given the scarcity of BCs/t3s in incursions, the t1 BC & t3 missile boats may be acceptable for NCN fleets. Of course, Naga/talos/Nado are preferred in shiny fleets.
Wait , are you telling me tier 3 BC's are preferred in shiny fleets? What fits and what incursion channel runs these ??? |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
328
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 11:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Last Wolf wrote:The barghest has probably the lowest DPS of all pirate BS. Especially after you account for missiles horrible ability to apply that DPS to even same sized targets. The frig/cruiser get decent dps compared to their counterparts, I don't understand why the BS gets the shaft when It comes to its dps.
8.75 effective launchers is pathetic. The new Rattlesnake gets 7.5 launchers + 7.5 drones. The snake will have 85% of the Bargy's dps without even launching its drones.
It needs 8 launchers and a 7.5% damage bonus. That would bring it up to 11 effective launchers, which Is about even with every other pirate BS. And considering it gets no application bonus and will probably not have room for TP's about 20% of that dps will be wasted even on same sized targets unless they are double webbed with their MWD on. You can't compare effective launchers quite so directly. With all V skills, a T2 Cruise Launcher does 60 DPS with T1 ammo, 69 DPS with Navy Faction and 85 DPS with T2. A T2 Tachyon Beam does 46 DPS with T1 Multi, 52 DPS with Navy Multi and 53 with Gleam. A Barghest with 11 effective launchers would be doing 935 missile DPS before any damage mods. 3 Navy BCUs would take it up to 1628 DPS out to 160Km. That might be just a smidgen unbalanced.
Your math is off. My golem with 4 faction bcu, t2 rof rig, 5% implants gets just a hair over 1,000 dps with fury cruise. That is 8 launchers. 11 launchers would be just under 1,400 dps with the same fittings and implants. That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |
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