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Xhieron
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Posted - 2006.06.04 22:31:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xhieron on 04/06/2006 22:31:44
Continuing from the thread on pirates paying their own ransoms:
Thread
 Originally by: Yual
I think what the poster is trying to ask is: All the pirates out there who keep saying "Trust us, stay calm, pay the ransom, and you'll be fine" if you were given the other side of your deal would you pay?
And a LOT of pirates said... no.
Almost hit the nail on the head there. I'm not going to try and make sense of the responses though. Anybody can read and make of it what you will. I think some of the responses are fascinating, though, and I leave it at that. Mind you the effort here hasn't been to embarrass anyone, pirate or otherwise; just to compel people to think about things from a different perspective.
As a kind of redirection though, I want to take this question a little further in response to what a lot of people said, and ask, "Is it true that anti-pirates are less honorable than pirates in terms of ransoms?"
I'm asking this EXACTLY in the same manner as I've seen it said by pirates before, so I'd like to put you on the spot, so to speak: If you're one of those pirates who has actually been ransomed, paid an anti-pirate money, and then been popped by the AP anyway, who was it? When the suggestion's been made that some pirates do not honor their ransoms, the upheaval has been massive on the part of pirates at large--and rightly so. I think it's only fair to subject the same claims about anti-pirates to the same scrutiny though.
As I said initially I'm not a pirate or anti-pirate. I gain nothing by pitting the groups against each other morally, in addition to physically. I lean more toward piracy due to my affiliations, and am not ashamed of that, but I think trying to convince pirates that anti-'s are less honorable, just due to a personal bias, is absolutely wrong. So, if you've been saying that anti-pirates are dishonorable, name them.
Who are the anti-pirates that will ransom you and then pop your ship anyway? I want individual and corp names here. If they didn't offer a ransom, or if they did and you didn't pay, it doesn't count either. You were offered a ransom by an anti-pirate, you paid it, and they kept your money and popped you anyway: Who are these anti-pirates? I for one am not going to believe such a generalization until someone has given me specific incidental evidence that it's true.
Thanks.
X.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.04 22:33:00 -
[2]
Both sides got their own asshats, TBH.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Speed Devil
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Posted - 2006.06.04 22:49:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Both sides got their own asshats, TBH.
what he said 
Signature removed - please email us to know why - Jacques([email protected]) |
Plim
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Posted - 2006.06.04 23:43:00 -
[4]
Are apples more honorable than pears?
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Victory or death! ... knitting is also an option. |
DrDopehat
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Posted - 2006.06.04 23:50:00 -
[5]
I don't care, I just want my tin-foil hat!! tin-foil hattery ftw! 
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Gen Kumon
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Posted - 2006.06.05 01:04:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Gen Kumon on 05/06/2006 01:08:58
I've very rarely engaged anti-pirates myself...I'm more likely to be fighting rival pirates. That said, when a pirate breaks his word, he's more or less blacklisted by the pirate community at large. When an anti-pirate breaks his word, his or her peers pat them on the back and tell them they did a good job, as long as a pirate ends up dead.
Edit: And if you really want proof, just go hunting through some of the various anti-pirate posts in this very forum. I may even do it myself and post some links in here if the thread's still active in the morning.
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Kyguard
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Posted - 2006.06.05 01:24:00 -
[7]
I think you'll find asshats on both sides.
However, I do think that the 0.0 anti-pirates tend to be more honourable and generally more professional in their work. I've heard some things about empire anti-pirates.. gah 
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God is on the side with the best arti |
Kahor
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Posted - 2006.06.05 08:43:00 -
[8]
I've seen anti pirates challenge me to a duel and try to bring a whole fleet on me.
I've never had any pirates wrong his word to me...though I must admit I am a pirate myself, and when pirates want to fight, they just do, they don't need rules.
From my personal experience, i've never not respected a ransom, and I'll trust a pirate over an anti anyday. (Yay I don't trust anyone to begin with but that's another matter).
I don't know wether I would or would not pay my own ransom, but if it is a pirate doing the ransom it won't be because I don't trust him.
An eye for an eye make a whole world blind.
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Cecil Montague
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Posted - 2006.06.05 10:16:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Cecil Montague on 05/06/2006 10:16:15
Originally by: Gen Kumon
When an anti-pirate breaks his word, his or her peers pat them on the back and tell them they did a good job, as long as a pirate ends up dead.
I spot another anti pirate breaking his work like that and i'll turn my guns on him.
Unless he has bigger guns in which case i'll just call him lame in local and run away. 
Oh and Kahor, come on man we ain't all bad. Last time we met i knew you were in a rupture. I had all the time in the world to return with my geddy but i grabbed my Rax instead. Just wish i had check local a little more carefully as that maller was a nasty surprise. 
Edit: sp
"There is no such thing as an effective segment of totality." - Bruce Lee |
Rawthorm
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Posted - 2006.06.05 11:11:00 -
[10]
The Establishment has always kept its word and we like to think of ourselves as having a code of honour.
If we start breaking our word, those jucy frieghters which pay over 300+ million isk a time to be set free wont pay up anymore.
This is where the anti-pirate differs.
He breaks his word and its not going to effect his income and he gets to kill a pirate to boot.
It is however quite rare to be ransomed by an anti-pirate as they usualy want to outright kill you.
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Kilo Paskaa
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Posted - 2006.06.05 13:02:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rawthorm
The Establishment has always kept its word and we like to think of ourselves as having a code of honour.
If we start breaking our word, those jucy frieghters which pay over 300+ million isk a time to be set free wont pay up anymore.
This is where the anti-pirate differs.
He breaks his word and its not going to effect his income and he gets to kill a pirate to boot.
It is however quite rare to be ransomed by an anti-pirate as they usualy want to outright kill you.
So we¦re saviors because we give a chance by ransoming . Down with the anti-pirates who just kill (read sarcasm). Anyway i think both sides are doing bad thingys, it just depends on who you¦re facing.
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As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies. |
Ange1
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Posted - 2006.06.05 13:11:00 -
[12]
I think both pirates and anti-pirates have their fair share of dishonourable types.
The Establishment is at your service...
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Hughy
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Posted - 2006.06.05 14:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ange1
I think both pirates and anti-pirates have their fair share of dishonourable types.
Agreed.
But to add to the discussion i'd like to ask how far can an Anti Pirate go before his acts have to be considered As bad as or worse than those of the people he has such distaste for?
Example,
Pirate is caught in system Anti-Pirate A Destroys his ship but the pod escapes. Pirate is then told to leave system and not return or face consequences.
Anti-Pirate B Destroys ship and Pods Pirate.
Anti-Piare C Fails to catch ship Pirate docks and station is camped by Several BS so Pirate is forced to stay in station After several hours Pirate negotiates Passage on agreement That he will not return.
Anti-Pirate D fails to catch ship and Camps station for several days/Weeks refusing to let pirate escape under any circumstances at all.
P.S i have total forgotten where i was going with this post.
P.P.S any Anti-Pie that Ransoms Anyone is just a Pirate in a Fancy Uniform!!
Sentinel Roqeze > I'm so drunk I'll probably try ransoming
the sentries
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Locutus ofBorg
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Posted - 2006.06.05 14:55:00 -
[14]
personally i think Pirates have more honor then the Ap's anyday. I am a pirate, new found 0.0 pirate i might add, and most AP's will not honor a 1v1 where as a pirate will (most of the time) There is a great example of my CEO getting ganked by an entire blob because he was about to win the fight, so i guess AP's are pirates in a way and that their hate for pirates should consume themselvs as well.
P.S. i lost where i was going with this but scorning AP's
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2006.06.05 15:35:00 -
[15]
But if an anti-pirate does a ransom (even if it's against a pirate) doesn't that make him a pirate himself?
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Ange1
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Posted - 2006.06.05 15:36:00 -
[16]
Perhaps this is merely a relative question. Pirates and Anti-Pirates will always be at odds with one another, so it may always seem from one sides perspective that the other is less honourable than they are.
The Establishment is at your service...
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Kilo Paskaa
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Posted - 2006.06.05 16:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hoshi
But if an anti-pirate does a ransom (even if it's against a pirate) doesn't that make him a pirate himself?
Well only thing that separates Pirate and anti-Pirate is how they treat neutrals. Pirates will kill/ransom anyone they can. Anti-Pirates just wont touch neutrals but they can still ransom pirate.
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As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies. |
Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.06.05 16:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Locutus ofBorg
personally i think Pirates have more honor then the Ap's anyday. I am a pirate, new found 0.0 pirate i might add, and most AP's will not honor a 1v1 where as a pirate will (most of the time) There is a great example of my CEO getting ganked by an entire blob because he was about to win the fight, so i guess AP's are pirates in a way and that their hate for pirates should consume themselvs as well.
P.S. i lost where i was going with this but scorning AP's
Is this a joke? It's a biased, opinionated wad of garbage. Piracy is a dishonorable profession, no matter how you look at it.
Have you seen Judge Dredd? That's how the majority of anti-pirates seem to be. Judge, Jury, and Executioner all in one package, and I love them for being that tragic hero type. Sure, they're doing bad by killing us pirates off, but they're doing good by defending those who can't. I figure if an Anti-Pirate doesn't respect his ransom, it's okay in the long run, because we abuse those who can't defend themselves, then they come along and beat the bloody hell clean out of us.
In fact, not long ago I ran into an alliance anti-pirate. He saw that I was a flasher and gutted me alive in my Rupture, his Vagabond had me pinned and he didn't utter a single word. He just popped and podded me. I wasn't angry because I knew I had it coming because of the decisions I had been making.
Anti-Pirates, i've got your back...even though i'm your prey.
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Magic Trev
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Posted - 2006.06.05 17:46:00 -
[19]
"Piracy is a dishonorable profession, no matter how you look at it."
no it's not.
but i agree with the fact there are ****s on both sides
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Varelse Wiggin
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Posted - 2006.06.05 17:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Magic Trev
"Piracy is a dishonorable profession, no matter how you look at it."
no it's not.
but i agree with the fact there are ****s on both sides
Bull**** it isn't, there is no honor to be had in (virtual) crime. Glory and a reputation, sure? But honor? No.
If a pirate lets his mark go after they pay a ransom it's not out of honor, respect, or care for the other player, it's because he is trying to establish a reputation as one who would rather ransom than kill, therefore encouraging players to pay his ransoms so he'll bugger off.
There is no honor in piracy.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.06.05 17:59:00 -
[21]
Any anti-pirate that would try to ransom a pirate has thereby proved that he isn't true to his profession and quite possibly dishonorable. Most real anti-pirates don't ransom.
Shamis
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Garreck
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Posted - 2006.06.05 19:46:00 -
[22]
Tough question to answer, given that most people forget this is a roleplaying game and relate too closely to the characters they play.
Is piracy honorable? No. Never has been. Killing unarmed people and taking their stuff is generally the antithesis of "honor." But...put it in a game and suddenly it's fun. And it IS fun...everybody wants to be a badguy at some point and feed their dark side or whatever. Nothing wrong with that. I think the problem so many pirates have is that they (the player) are not bad people and get a little butt-hurt when they're reminded that they (the character) are in fact badguys.
As for pirate hunters? Well, there are multiple styles. For extremists, the ends justify the means. They're not after honor, they're after justice. And killing a pirate (remembering that pirates are "badguys") is justice no matter the means of killing that pirate. For other pirate hunters, honor means a great deal...to forget one's honor is to forget what makes you "better" than the pirate you kill. (Understanding that we are talking about characters here, not the people playing them.)
Now...addressing the people behind pirates and pirate hunters? Let's face it: we're all the same. We're playing this fantastic scifi space combat game and just having a whole lot of fun. Anyone who thinks that any certain type of person is more attracted to piracy or anti-piracy needs to get their head out of the sand.
As a somewhat related footnote...there IS a difference between people who enjoy the combat aspects of Eve and those who enjoy the financial/industrial aspects. That's another part of the magic of Eve: it attracts people of multiple play styles...indeed, to maintain economic balance in the game it NEEDS people of multiple play styles.
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2006.06.05 20:14:00 -
[23]
i wonder what kind of antipirate would randsom anyways 
"ill let you go if you pay me 2 mil and promise to stop pirating"
tbh i dont know why antipirates keep at it, it doesn't sound fun chasing some random low sec person around all day while other, much easier targets swarm all around you.
if you were a roleplayer though i'd understand, i guess...
the hedal system in molden heath comes to mind 
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Kahor
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Posted - 2006.06.05 20:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cecil Montague
Edited by: Cecil Montague on 05/06/2006 10:16:15
Originally by: Gen Kumon
When an anti-pirate breaks his word, his or her peers pat them on the back and tell them they did a good job, as long as a pirate ends up dead.
I spot another anti pirate breaking his work like that and i'll turn my guns on him.
Unless he has bigger guns in which case i'll just call him lame in local and run away.
Oh and Kahor, come on man we ain't all bad. Last time we met i knew you were in a rupture. I had all the time in the world to return with my geddy but i grabbed my Rax instead. Just wish i had check local a little more carefully as that maller was a nasty surprise.
Edit: sp
Hehe, of course you are right, a lot of antis are honorable, but concerning ransom...an AP ransoming sound suspicious to me, and truely there is no reason for him not to pop you anyway.
You might kill APs that break their words, but not all do..why not so long ago I contacted the CEO of some pilot that had wronged me (he did try to bring a fleet on me after asking for 1vs1, but was so afraid to loose his caracal to an insta pop from my rupture (wtf) that he did warp 60km from me...his friends never got the time to warp in to me ^^) and the CEO litteraly told me to stuff it, somehow they had a right to break their word because it's ok to be a liar, as long as you think the other side is ebil.
And I seem to remember your name, though I can't remember anything else (my memory is real bad), if you give me a system name I might remember though.
Fly safe.
An eye for an eye make a whole world blind.
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General Hawke
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Posted - 2006.06.05 21:13:00 -
[25]
I'm pretty new to the concept of AP or pirate ideals.....but doesn't a pirate try to kill anything that moves that they can drop or ransom? and, also don't AP's try to guard others, and themselves by only attacking in instigated conflicts other than pirates or bounties?
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Yu Bin'had
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Posted - 2006.06.05 21:14:00 -
[26]
In my experience pirates are more honorable as a general rule. I think the key to this is the different motovations between the two professions.
- Pirates motivation is generally to have a good time, which is positive.
- Anti-pirates motivation is often hate or revenge, which is kinda negative.
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Snake Gallows
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Posted - 2006.06.06 01:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hoshi
But if an anti-pirate does a ransom (even if it's against a pirate) doesn't that make him a pirate himself?
A very good question, but it goes along with the thought of does killing a killer make you a killer. There realy is no "right" answer.
Having thought about going anti-pirate myself I had to think of my code of conduct as such. I think it's a shame that most anti-pirates are so ruthless as to not honor thier ransoms. Much like a pirate, if you ransom, honor it and lead by example. Kill thoughs who act dishonorable.
I think anti's should hold themselves to a higher standard than pirates and be as honorable as they can. I would perfer to chalange a pirate to 1 on 1 if they where "honorable" pirates, meaning they ransom and honor thier word. If they were gate campers that just pop for fun jump them with a blob and give them the option to negotiate passage out of the system or face sumery destruction.
In my own experiance in my last year in this game I have faced "real" pirates who honor thier word and "scum" that don't. I respect real pirates, I often try to convo them and pick thier brains for more efective tactics. Scum...Well they just like to cause stife and if ever given the chance, I would offer them uncondisional surender, meaning abandoning thier ship, ransom for safe passage to the nearest gate or face sumery destruction.
Mind you I can speak only from the theoretical until I can muster enough isk to aford to work on this project. I am also speaking from a role players perspective of the sort of anti-pirate I would like to represent.
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Maximillian Pele
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Posted - 2006.06.06 03:02:00 -
[28]
Nietzche said that it is common to demonise those who oppose us.
What is "honour" in a game like Eve and do Pirates and Anti-Pirates have it?
Compare "honour" among groups like the Mafia to "honour" in the Military or the Police - you simply can't compare the them as the basis for "honour" is completely different in each case.
There is "honour" among many of the Pirates in Eve just as there is "honour" among many Anti-Pirates. But as both are coming from a different POV, both tend to view the other as dishonourable.
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Galan Amarias
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Posted - 2006.06.06 06:51:00 -
[29]
I apologize if somone beat me to this but its late and I can't read anymore.
To the point.
As a fledgling Anti-Pirate, Gawd isn't there a better name? Bounty hunter? Privateer?, I think that Marv in Sin City summed it up best. "Hitmen, I love em, no mater what you do to one you never feel bad about it."
That brings the discusion down to is it criminal to treat criminals criminally? Do we wear White and Black hats and the whites are always good and the blacks always bad?
I'd say its in the rules of the lifestyle. A pirate is out looking for a juicy freighter.. an anti-pirate is at the least looking for someone who was already looking for a fight.
In looking for a militant oponent I would say the anti-pirate is the more honorable calling. They are a warrior seeking warriors. And for myself it's blow the ship ransom the pod, if I can ever catch one of those elusive pods...unles the pod has a bounty.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.06 07:21:00 -
[30]
From what I can tell, what anti-pirates really want is to hurt pirates and to get kills. I've been chased by a lot of anti-pirates, and to be quite honest, they aren't hard to evade. I've lost one ship to antis, and that was a single one who warped into my belt in a HAC while i was making a cruiser kill in a rupture. Every time they fly a big blob, I just stay out of their way. They can spend hours chasing me or camping me without a kill, while in that time I can kill several of the innocents they are there to protect. What they really seem to crave is actually hitting a pirate, and feeling they did him damage. Kills are so rare that the ransom money or loot is nowhere near an income. They just want to hurt you and tell your friends that they actually got a kill. I'm pretty sure if they said "yeah, I ransomed him and let him go" all their anti-pirate buddies would go up in arms with "look, he's a pirate, you should have just taken his cash and ganked him"
We can offer all the opinions you want, but if you want real evidence, get together with some anti-pirates and do it.
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