It's a necessary evil to counter RMTing. Without it people will still "cheat" only without the profits going into game development.

While I understand the point you are getting at.... I dont actually get what point you are actually trying to make

if that makes sense.

No point... sharing the view and encouraging others to share their own. Just an interesting and relaxed discussion.

GÇ£Oh, why does that feel so wrong, cheating in my own game?GÇ¥ Petursson asked rhetorically during a presentation at the D.I.C.E. Summit in Las Vegas today. The answer, he said, is key to the emotional connection that EVEGÇÖs economic systems manage to lend to what are, when it comes down to it, just bits of code on a server somewhere.

In the EVE universe, all of those bits of code represent the time and effort that the gameGÇÖs players spent organizing into corporations and alliances, mining virtual resources and protecting their investments, Petursson said.

Look at scammers.

- PLEXing the wallet ruins my gameplay experience by making huge parts of the game obsolete;

TL;DR:
- PLEX is a "cheat code" for giving you game resources;
- There is no limit on the amount of ISK that covers all game's goals that I can have;
- PLEXing the wallet ruins my gameplay experience by making huge parts of the game obsolete;
- For me, PLEX is only useful as an investment that would yield more ISK;

OP, your feelings reminds of me this quote from an Ars Technica article on EVE Online:



Also, I've always wondered what your name means to you.. as it is mysteriously constructed of consonants and vowels I've never imagined together before. It would be awesome if you could tell us the origin of your name..

- Yes but it doesn't mean you have pressed the i win button
- Therefore selling plex doesn't matter as you will always need more
- Then don't buy plex. Other people may not want to play those parts of the game (mining/manufactoring/ratting etc)
- Thats for you. Other people use it to pay for alt accounts or their own account. Or for ship skins or for clothes etc.

So this is another 'I don't like something so remove it from the game post'.

I don't like scams and the captains quarters, should they be removed from the game, no as that is part of the game.

HTFU on Plex and stop worrying about something that doesn't affect you if you don't buy/use them.

Except in my case, I don't see everything that selling PLEX for ISK gives as an advantage.

The third point is that if I sell PLEX to fill my wallet, I'd effectively eliminate the need for a huge part of gameplay. Basically, anything that produces ISK: industry, exploration, missions, complexes, mining (ok, not mining... mining is doesn't involve any gameplay anyway), PI ... all of that becomes redundant.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean

Selling PLEX to get ISK is an advantage if I only look at ISK. It's not an advantage (for me) if I look at how many parts of the game become obsolete (again, for me) if I use PLEX as an ISK source.

NOTE: This is not a regular "PLEX is too expensive - the sky is falling" thread. In fact, I don't mention or deal with the price of PLEX in this post at all.

PLEX has always been a hot topic, so I thought to share my views on it. It doesn't mean that I think this is the general opinion. I know it isn't. You are free to share your own.

I've played a lot of games before EVE. No MMOs, just regular single/multi player games. In every game there are cheat codes which I have used in replays. That was my own rule - to experience the real game before using cheat codes. The most used cheat code is, of course, the one that gives you in-game resources as it makes it easier to bare the re-play (since you already know how the game is going to end).

In eve, the main resource is ISK and PLEX is a "cheat code" with one difference: you pay for your cheat code. Since EVE is a game that doesn't end, I feel that if I buy the PLEX to sell it for ISK, I would effectively use the most powerful cheat that gives me instant resources. I've tried that in just of a couple of games in the past and I simply couldn't get rid of the feeling that I broke the game and that it became too easy.

The second point is that in any other game (still not including MMOs), there is a limit for resources which can not be spent during a normal game session. Once you acquire that amount of resources, you can simply forget about the resources altogether, because there are no more goals that would require you to have more resources. Since you have eliminated resources from your game, there is a feeling that you did everything you can to acquire enough resources to do anything in the game.

EVE is not like that. No matter how much ISK you have, there are always goals that require you to have even more ISK (other than having more ISK per se, of course). There is always that need to set a higher goal and require more ISK, which never ends. Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a carebear. I haven't been able to be much active in the last couple of years, but whenever I am, I either fly solo in low/null or join a PvP alliance (or alliance that has PvP). ISK hoarding is not my thing. I have 2 bil in my wallet after 8 years of playing, and that easily drops to a couple of hundreds of millions at times when I'm actively playing ).

The third point is that if I sell PLEX to fill my wallet, I'd effectively eliminate the need for a huge part of gameplay. Basically, anything that produces ISK: industry, exploration, missions, complexes, mining (ok, not mining... mining is doesn't involve any gameplay anyway), PI ... all of that becomes redundant. If I decide to fill my wallet by selling PLEXes, I know that I would always do that, so playing anything that is in the game purely for making ISK would quickly become unjustified for me, since at that point I'd have enough ISK, I'd have an endless source of ISK and I'd always have something else other than making ISK to do in the game. I would distance myself from huge parts of the game. The reason why I started and continued to play EVE is because of its diversity and that diversity would be gone if I start PLEXing my wallet.

For me, the only useful and non game breaking use of the PLEX is to sell a couple of them as an investment which will, by active gameplay, produce more ISK in the future.

TL;DR:
- PLEX is a "cheat code" for giving you game resources;
- There is no limit on the amount of ISK that covers all game's goals that I can have;
- PLEXing the wallet ruins my gameplay experience by making huge parts of the game obsolete;
- For me, PLEX is only useful as an investment that would yield more ISK;

edit: Maybe bad and controversial TL;DR, but if you are interested in the subject, it's all explained in the post. Also, this is NOT, by any means "I hate PLEX" kind of a thread

Sorry Im still not following you

Someone with a lot of Isk has an advantage that someone without any isk has

It doesn't make it impossible to do anything without Isk, it just requires more effort

- For me, PLEX is only useful as an investment that would yield more ISK

There's no guarantee that will always be the case...

There are activities that produce small amount of ISK, especially if you don't dedicate to it. Dedicating to a single activity (for a certain amount of time, of course) within a diverse game like EVE is only possible (in my case) if there is enough motivation, especially if it doesn't provide huge piles of ISK at casual mode. For many PvE and industrial activities, the strongest motivation is the reward I get at the end: a certain amount of ISK and a feeling that I have contributed directly to something.

If I eliminate the main motivation (ISK) behind exclusive dedication to a certain part of the game, it's harder for me to decide to engage in that activity, especially if I already have the results at my disposal by simply selling PLEX. To me, that's a loss of diversity in my own game and it reduces the general fun factor (for me).

Thats the part I understand.

It was what you said about "Except in my case, I don't see everything that selling PLEX for ISK gives as an advantage." that I dont understand.

Surely having investment capital is an advantage as it allows you to buy the ships, modules and infrastructure you need to do whatever it is that entertains you

Surely having investment capital is an advantage as it allows you to buy the ships, modules and infrastructure you need to do whatever it is that entertains you

Why should I listen to someone who uses cheat codes?

If you look at it from another perspective, a scammer doesn't always know the outcome of his advert and can't control the time point where he would get ISK from his scheme. Expectations are involved and waiting time for a reward that is ISK. It's a mental game used even in RL as well. Waiting and hoping can produce happiness when the result is presented. Lottery players know that the best.

First post

From skimming your post i noticed that you don't mention market value...

If you buy 2000 plex and put them all on the market to get a bit of isk, the price will crash. Instead of 700m you may only be able to get 300m because the market becomes oversaturated.

Also mind that the ISK you get for PLEX comes from players, and is *not* guaranteed. Putting it on the market does not mean people *will* buy it, in part due to the market value as mentioned earlier.

This balances out the use of PLEX in the ways you describe. You can't just get infinite ISK with PLEX, which is part of why they're such a great tool against RMT in EVE.

You can also look at it this way.

Do you think the game is good enough to be worth subbing your accounts?

If yes, forget about PLEX, sub your accounts and give your money directly to CCP to (hopefully) continue developing the game you love.


People often say that PLEXing your accounts gives money to CCP too, only indirectly.

But 'indirectly' is the key word here. PLEXing your accounts increases PLEX demand, which may or may not increase PLEX supply. If PLEX supply doesn't increase, you're just nabbing the PLEX from somebody else that doesn't make enough ISK to afford it: CCP doesn't get anymore money.

Market dynamics and speculation certainly complicate things, but it's undeniable that the safest bet to give your money to CCP - if you think they and the game deserve it - is by subbing your accounts.

I think the OP was talking about selling PLEX for ISK, not buying them.

I agree to an extent. However, there are many ways to sell multiple PLEXes other than using the market.

- You don't have to dump it all in one region. You can spread it to multiple regions to limit the price drop;
- Contracts are also useful to an extent;
- Almost every big alliance that I was a part of had a forum post in their internal forum that deals with buying huge amounts of PLEX-es for funding sitting supercap/titan pilots used in defense, industrial alt accounts that ran the alliances economy or whatever. The prices offered were below market price, but they were usually good enough and you get a bonus feeling of supporting your alliance.
- Bulk trading mailing lists can be used to sell under the market radar;

I'm not saying that there is no limit to the amount of PLEX that you can sell without crashing the market, but rather that the amount of PLEX that you can sell to use for your own personal needs is high enough that you should not worry about crashing the market. Also, as I mentioned, there are ways of diminishing the impact on the global price to give you more room if you need it.

Money isn't everything.

A wise man once said:



You can have all the ISK in New Eden, and still be fundamentally terrible at EVE.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

So no, it's not a cheat code at all in my opinion.

A wise man once said:



You can have all the ISK in New Eden, and still be fundamentally terrible at EVE.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

So no, it's not a cheat code at all in my opinion.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

Well, if you're completely broke (space and RL), skill at playing the game won't help you very much, since you won't get a chance at applying it, so there is that ;).

In eve, the main resource is ISK and PLEX is a "cheat code" with one difference: you pay for your cheat code. Since EVE is a game that doesn't end, I feel that if I buy the PLEX to sell it for ISK, I would effectively use the most powerful cheat that gives me instant resources.

Inb4 Tippia trying to convince you over 12 pages that you're wrong. Just wait for it. Nobody points out what the PLEX system essentially is and gets away with it!

EDIT: Nonetheless, I think all in all, PLEX is a good thing. It lets me make rich people buy my gametime because they're stupid. It's nice. You can easily scam 5-10 PLEX per week in Jita.

Too slow. Tippy already liked my response thus implicitly endorsing it.

However with the PLEX system, players mine or do missions to create ISK that otherwise wouldn't be created. PLEX makes players do mindnumbing tasks that they'd otherwise never do, for ISK. PLEX turns players into bots. Are you seriously calling that a good thing?

TL;DR:
- PLEX is a "cheat code" for giving you game resources;

- There is no limit on the amount of ISK that covers all game's goals that I can have;

- PLEXing the wallet ruins my gameplay experience by making huge parts of the game obsolete;

Plex gives you in-game *value* - you still require another person to actually convert that to gameplay-useful resource, like ISK.



I've almost never found ISK to be the bottleneck on achieving a goal in game, but maybe that's just me.



If you don't enjoy it, don't do it. See how easy that was? You're fundamentally wrong about it making huge parts of the game obsolete, however: *Someone* still has to do those parts of the game to generate the money that you're getting for your PLEX. It doesn't come out of thin air. It doesn't replace those aspects of the game, it simply allows you to pay someone else to do them for you.

A wise man once said:



You can have all the ISK in New Eden, and still be fundamentally terrible at EVE.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

So no, it's not a cheat code at all in my opinion.

TL;DR:- PLEX is a "cheat code" for giving you game resources;

PLEXing the wallet ruins my gameplay experience by making huge parts of the game obsolete;

After 8 years, there's a nice post for almost everything.

You can also look at it this way.

Do you think the game is good enough to be worth subbing your accounts?

If yes, forget about PLEX, sub your accounts and give your money directly to CCP to (hopefully) continue developing the game you love.


People often say that PLEXing your accounts gives money to CCP too, only indirectly.

But 'indirectly' is the key word here. PLEXing your accounts increases PLEX demand, which may or may not increase PLEX supply. If PLEX supply doesn't increase, you're just nabbing the PLEX from somebody else that doesn't make enough ISK to afford it: CCP doesn't get anymore money.

Market dynamics and speculation certainly complicate things, but it's undeniable that the safest bet to give your money to CCP - if you think they and the game deserve it - is by subbing your accounts.

I think the PLEX system is the best implementation of "Free to Play" I've seen in an mmo, for all the reasons Malcanis pointed out.

In eve, the main resource is ISK and PLEX is a "cheat code" with one difference: you pay for your cheat code. Since EVE is a game that doesn't end, I feel that if I buy the PLEX to sell it for ISK, I would effectively use the most powerful cheat that gives me instant resources. I've tried that in just of a couple of games in the past and I simply couldn't get rid of the feeling that I broke the game and that it became too easy.

It's not "free to play". "Free to play" can be played without anyone paying. I can go play World of Tanks without spending a dime, if I want. Nobody else has to spend a dime on my behalf, either. I can do this indefinitely.

By contrast, if I PLEX my account, *someone* spent real money on that plex. Just because I didn't spend real money on it doesn't make it "free" - I paid for it with in-game labor, and unless I continue my in-game labors at a pace adequate enough to offset my PLEX consumption, I will not be able to continue playing for "free" indefinitely.

Its free to play by definition of the words free to play.

It's not "free to play". "Free to play" can be played without anyone paying. I can go play World of Tanks without spending a dime, if I want. Nobody else has to spend a dime on my behalf, either.

The highlighted sentences are obviously incorrect. Somebody has to pay so that you can play for free. If nobody paid, then the game would be shut down pretty quickly.

The only difference with that with PLEX, the pay-play relationship is much more clearly defined, and it's transacted directly between two players, rather than transacted between the set of "whales" and the set of "minnows" indirectly via the publisher

The highlighted sentences are obviously incorrect. Somebody has to pay so that you can play for free. If nobody paid, then the game would be shut down pretty quickly.

So I can maintain access to the server indefinitely without sacrificing any of the fruits of my own time/effort to do so?

If you're an illiterate imbecile with an extremely malleable definition of "free" that isn't recognized by the entire rest of the world, sure, then it's totally free to play by definition.

For the rest of us, particularly people who understand that their time has value, PLEX are actually a pretty expensive way to pay for their gametime. Even a minimum wage job will provide most people with an equivalent sum of money faster than they can scrape it together in game.

EVE is not F2P solely because you have an account that MUST be paid for. You can pay it, or you can have someone else pay it for you via a PLEX, but it's gotta get paid or no gametime for you.

F2P games, on the other hand, do not require you to pay. They operate on the principle that some people WILL pay (and shut down if no one does) but at no point can you lose access to your account because you or someone else didn't pay for you...because there's no payment required.

Nope. You can pay for you very first PLEX in game with money you earned, without ever paying a dime of real currency.

The bold parts are where it stops being free.

Its exactly as free as WOT or any other F2P out there. It costs zero spendable currency and some amount of time.

Not playing a game negates the "play" aspect in "free to play".

The Clintonian strategy, eh?

Well in way PLEX is a cheat in so far that if you able to purchase it on a regular basis you can completely forgo having to "earn isk"

For example if you pvp and are able to purchase plex then you will not have to earn isk doing "insert boring and tedium pve method" which usually requires having multiple accounts.

I mean I have several accounts where I earn my isk in a variety of different ways to fund my pvp. If I had the money to spend on plex then I wouldn't need these accounts and I wouldn't have to subject myself to mind numbing boredom that is PvE in Eve.

Christ If ever won the lottery I would buy a boat load of plex simply never have to do any other PvE activity again... ever.

Which also raises another question although admittedly hypothetical in nature.

If somebody were to win the lottery and decided to buy a ridiculous amount of plex and use it fund a war or two, I wonder then if the people who were on the opposite side of that war, knowing that they were facing an enemy with unlimited pockets and with no need to spend time grinding isk, would think plex is a good thing?

A wise man once said:



You can have all the ISK in New Eden, and still be fundamentally terrible at EVE.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

So no, it's not a cheat code at all in my opinion.

I know what you want to say, but its kind of naive. Money is not everything, but its most of things. If everything else fails but you have nearly unlimmited ressources you will still win by attrition.

Even the biggest cearbear that gets ganked every day multiple times will outlast the ganker if he can just replace his retriever forever. Why? Because he cheats consequences. He can just ignore the ganker.

Fine words, but the reality is exactly the opposite I'm afraid.

I don't know in what part of the world you are living, but in my part of the world money rules.

If i don't have the right skillset, i pay someone to do the work. If i don't have the power to directly influence somebody, i pay ppl who can (=politics).

Thats how the world works for me....i may be biased.

I don't know in what part of the world you are living, but in my part of the world money rules.

If i don't have the right skillset, i pay someone to do the work. If i don't have the power to directly influence somebody, i pay ppl who can (=politics).

Thats how the world works for me....i may be biased.

The third point is that if I sell PLEX to fill my wallet, I'd effectively eliminate the need for a huge part of gameplay. ;)]

A wise man once said:



You can have all the ISK in New Eden, and still be fundamentally terrible at EVE.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

So no, it's not a cheat code at all in my opinion.

I'm never allowed to solve my problems with grouped railguns in real life

Thanks for the link... I'll read it later.

edit: You hit it right on the spot

ONE TIME OFF-TOPIC REPLY (per request) :
I'll post (if I haven't already... need to check) the name explanation on that thread and here as well: It's not English - it's Serbian. It means "Antichrist's Apprentice". It's not religion based, but rather have roots in high-tech. I've read somewhere that the Antichrist would be a man who could create anything that God creates, but that his creations would be artificial and without a soul. When I started playing I was studying Artificial intelligence in software engineering. Eve is also a game where you are actively creating something in a virtual universe, so each player is a creator. I didn't want to name my character as a singular entity that would rule out other players/creators, so I've added "Apprentice".

I know what you want to say, but its kind of naive. Money is not everything, but its most of things. If everything else fails but you have nearly unlimmited ressources you will still win by attrition.

Even the biggest cearbear that gets ganked every day multiple times will outlast the ganker if he can just replace his retriever forever. Why? Because he cheats consequences. He can just ignore the ganker.

You devs are all so keen on that idea, consequences in EvE....you should get that point i think.

Just because we have accepted PLEX as the lesser evil doesn't mean it doesn't follow the principle of money-cheats, because it simply does (its not even a matter of opinion, its just simple fact by observation, it beams ISK to your wallet....)

Nope. You can pay for you very first PLEX in game with money you earned, without ever paying a dime of real currency.

deleted.

Confirmed

deleted because as I posted a fantastic, devastating riposte I realized:


YHBT.
YHL.
HAND.

was where I was heading. :)

Its exactly as free as WOT or any other F2P out there. It costs zero spendable currency and some amount of time.

For me, Plex was always a mixed bag.

I was rather proud when I made my first bio ISK, --- and then Plex were introduced. Little Jimmy could now slaughter his piggy bank and buy himself a bio ISK. My "accomplishment" was vaporized. For an industrialist, this was a bit frustrating.

On the other hand, it makes sense that CCP profits from the RMT and not somebody else. I also understand that a lot of PvPers fail at making ISK. Being able to jump in with the piggy bank helps those players to enjoy the game more.

Industry lost a bit of meaning. PvP is easier. All in all, more people enjoy the game and CCP stays afloat.
We live with it.

Technically Industry doesn't take a hit or lose meaning.

Am I cheating when I pay someone else to do my vacuuming and dusting?

Am I cheating when I pay someone else to drive me to work (e.g.: taxi or bus, I'm not RL rich enough for a chauffeur yet)?

A wise man once said:



You can have all the ISK in New Eden, and still be fundamentally terrible at EVE.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

So no, it's not a cheat code at all in my opinion.

A wise man once said:



You can have all the ISK in New Eden, and still be fundamentally terrible at EVE.

ISK, Skills, Ships... none of it actually means anything... pilot skill, and the ability to actually play the game take precedent over everything else.

So no, it's not a cheat code at all in my opinion.

Just because it's endorsed by the game rules makers, that doesn't make it not cheating. The rules makers in EVE also play the game, so they aren't as reliable as one might assume.

Being rich had nothing to do with being good at the game.

I've said for years now that webbing and warp scramming are the same things - cheats. (I do call them "crutches", but I mean cheats when I say that.) They're there for ego purposes only - 'cause someone has to "win".

I think these things are finding their ways into games to accommodate a psychotic tendency shared by the majority of the world's population - impatience being one of the symptoms. These sorts of "improvements" serve only to shorten the length of time it might require to do something otherwise. It might take years to make that much ISK. It might take years to finally destroy that sucker's ship!

As in all such matters, the afflicted ones bray the loudest. They know they like it for the above stated reasons, but claim it has something to do with some other line of logic. When pressed, ultimately, it then becomes "just a game. What's the big deal?" Apart from the intellectual dishonesty and lack of integrity involved, I guess there ISN'T a big deal. SO, if it's NOT a big deal, why the LOUD DISAGREEMENT when it's MENTIONED? HUH?

Many of them simply could not afford to play the game with real money.

The OP, if you noticed, contradicts himself "ISK is...an investment..." I agree it's cheating. Just because it's endorsed by the game rules makers, that doesn't make it not cheating. The rules makers in EVE also play the game, so they aren't as reliable as one might assume. Once this cheating was allowed, it shifted the related stat calibration. Being rich had nothing to do with being good at the game.

I've said for years now that webbing and warp scramming are the same things - cheats. (I do call them "crutches", but I mean cheats when I say that.) They're there for ego purposes only - 'cause someone has to "win". I've mentioned the vast majority of naval engagements result in no winner per se, and uninformed, and ill-read idiots spew forth "HUH???" Which, is expected.

I think these things are finding their ways into games to accommodate a psychotic tendency shared by the majority of the world's population - impatience being one of the symptoms. These sorts of "improvements" serve only to shorten the length of time it might require to do something otherwise. It might take years to make that much ISK. It might take years to finally destroy that sucker's ship!

As in all such matters, the afflicted ones bray the loudest. They know they like it for the above stated reasons, but claim it has something to do with some other line of logic. When pressed, ultimately, it then becomes "just a game. What's the big deal?" Apart from the intellectual dishonesty and lack of integrity involved, I guess there ISN'T a big deal. SO, if it's NOT a big deal, why the LOUD DISAGREEMENT when it's MENTIONED? HUH?

It's funny.

I'm picturing you as the sort of person who also has a lot to say about chemtrails.

There are activities that produce small amount of ISK, especially if you don't dedicate to it. Dedicating to a single activity (for a certain amount of time, of course) within a diverse game like EVE is only possible (in my case) if there is enough motivation, especially if it doesn't provide huge piles of ISK at casual mode. For many PvE and industrial activities, the strongest motivation is the reward I get at the end: a certain amount of ISK and a feeling that I have contributed directly to something.

If I eliminate the main motivation (ISK) behind exclusive dedication to a certain part of the game, it's harder for me to decide to engage in that activity, especially if I already have the results at my disposal by simply selling PLEX. To me, that's a loss of diversity in my own game and it reduces the general fun factor (for me).

ITT an ex CSM implying that someone is a CT, and using a CT that has been proven multiple times over as an example.

******* hilarious.

LOLno

Wat

This post is what hilarious m8

I guess you don't have websites or news or people talking where your from? No worries.

Yes, PLEX is a cheat, so are alts.

Also, my alts are the only EVE players i trust.^^

Terrible mistake.

Your own alts are the first ones that will take a shot at you if you only give them a chance.

My alts are my family

Bunch of inbred hicks, if you ask me

My alts are my family

Bunch of inbred hicks, if you ask me

My alts are my family

Bunch of inbred hicks, if you ask me

Wanting to have fun is psychotic, and you feel left out and in extremem minority because you dont want to have any, thats what you have just said.
This part I like. You have basically said "Anyone who disagrees with me is a liar"

Well lie me up, because your post is full of ****

PLEX is cheating. Anytime you can just pump up the significant stats in a game by not actually PLAYING IT, guess what! Judges can rule against the intent of law. Referees can be bribed to see things differently and PLEX is CHEATING.

Not made-up nonsense about CTs, no

I generally dont go to tinfoil sites, thanks

You illustrate my point so well. It went from CT to fact after it was disclosed, 4 years ago.