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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
916
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Posted - 2014.06.03 17:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
There isn't catch up because there isn't really a falling behind. Every skill and every ship, and every module has its uses, some are available within a few days, others take months/years to get to. They aren't necessarily better or worse, just have different applications.
A T1 Pirate Frig with Pirate Faction fittings is going to give a T2 Frig with T2 fittings a decent run, the difference you can fly that T1 Frig in a couple weeks, to fly the T2 Frig you need a month or two of training. The great equalizer is pilot skill, not skill points. If you learn the fundamentals of the ships you can fly, and what that ship can work against, you can do quite a lot as a new player, even out of the box.
And that is what separates EVE from games like WoW. There actually is a strong skill factor involved, you can have 100M SP and not have any idea of why you fit ships or fly them a certain way. (F1 Monkeys). Or you can have 10M SP sit in a nice T1 Frig and poses the actual mechanical understanding of how to fly your ship and maximize its effectiveness.
Bigger isn't always better. |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
Dawn of Transcendence
590
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Posted - 2014.06.03 17:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:In a previous thread Tippia said new players can "catch up" in no time. Please explain. Given the skill system a new player will never catch up to a vet until the point where all skills are trained.
If you are talking about specific skills, say a racial frigate with all modules trained to 5, sure. But by the time the new guy gets this done the vet is already trained or on their way to training cruisers to 5. The new guy is not catching up, they are falling behind in a different area.
And in no way does the skill system reward playing well.
Bitter vets say the skill system works. New people post looking for a way to catch up or to be rewarded for good play. Can there be a constructive discussion on how EvE skill system can evolve and grow?
Player A has 100m skillpoints but never bothered to train t2 cruisers.
Player B has 50m skillpoints and has nearly maxed out skills to fly HACs and HICs.
Player A has 200m skillpoints but literally no science or industry skills.
Player B has 50m skillpoints and has several areas of research and industry maxed out.
Now for a more poignant example:
Player A has 200m skillpoints and has all science skills at level 5.
Player B has 50m skillpoints and is maxed out for flying HACs.
How exactly do those 150m skillpoints of player A help in a fight against player B?
And to top it off:
Player A has 200m skillpoints and has never undocked in his entire EVE career.
Player B has 50m skillpoints and has been PVP'ing nonstop since he started.
According to the OP's logic, player A always wins because he has more SP and thus 'cannot be caught up with'.
As i said in the other thread, actual skill isn't measured in a stat.
Should i go on? I would hope my point is clear. Skillpoints allow you to diversify later on in your EVE career. They are not a measure of skill or progress. Beat that into your head: Skillpoints are not a measure of skill or progress.
If you for some reason are trying to convince yourself that they are (and it seems like you do), EVE is not the game for you.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |
Thius Taxus Thellere
Blueprint Mania
1
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Posted - 2014.06.03 17:49:00 -
[33] - Quote
Don't worry about "catching up" Just enjoy the journey. It's a game. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2416
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Posted - 2014.06.03 17:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ashwind Houssa wrote:Not a surprise that long termers have no problem with new players being food.
Sure, as a new player I can max out frig skills in a year. However if I focus my skills solely on frigs I will be stuck running low level missions until my skills make me not completely outclassed.
Nothing wrong with that per se, but the long termers acting like it isn't a huge hurdle to overcome is a part of the problem. Then again, given how many multi year accounts I see only farming new people, it seems a design decision.
Maxed skilled frigates tend to go well with, oh, let me think...pvp 
This is not a signature. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
6628
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Posted - 2014.06.03 17:59:00 -
[35] - Quote
Thius Taxus Thellere wrote:Don't worry about "catching up" Just enjoy the journey. It's a game.
Said no thempark mmo developer or player EVER 
That's a big point though. People who really enjoy EVE are the kinds of people who aren't in any hurry to get to the "end game" so to speak, where as the traditional (by today's standards) MMO player is looking to skill up as soon as possible so they can 'catch up' to older players.
You see it all the time among the PVE community and forums. People RUSHING into battleships they aren't trained for to run lvl 4 missions they aren't prepared for, only to then see that play ***** and moan about how unfair the game is because it takes too long to get to the "good stuff". It's gotten so bad that now INCURSION COMMUNITIES have SP requirements like null sec corps do lol.
It boils down to the fact that most people are just too impatient to ever like something like EVE. most quit, some stay around and complain, begging CCP to give them things like 'faster skill progression if I use the skill" and such. Point blank, CCP should add a pop up in installation saying "theme park players need not apply" lol.
Being a person who needs the things that regular thempark MMOs have and thern choosing to play EVE is like being a dude whose favorite book is Das Kapital who chooses to play a game called 'Reganomics Online' (known as 'Thatcher's Revenge' in the UK)...then complains about all the damn economic inequality in the game....
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Bael Malefic
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
98
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
You will finally "catch up" when the veteran players ahead of you unsub finally as they are consumed by bitterness at the futility of it all, at which point you will realize you have become one of the very bittervets you once despised.
But seriously, this:
Thius Taxus Thellere wrote:Don't worry about "catching up" Just enjoy the journey. It's a game.
There are things about Eve that kind of rock as a newbie. Then you get into other things as you gain experience and ability. Kind of like life, there are aspects to enjoy that change as you go along.
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Ashwind Houssa
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ashwind Houssa wrote:Not a surprise that long termers have no problem with new players being food.
Sure, as a new player I can max out frig skills in a year. However if I focus my skills solely on frigs I will be stuck running low level missions until my skills make me not completely outclassed.
Nothing wrong with that per se, but the long termers acting like it isn't a huge hurdle to overcome is a part of the problem. Then again, given how many multi year accounts I see only farming new people, it seems a design decision. Maxed skilled frigates tend to go well with, oh, let me think...pvp
Correct. But what should a new player do for the two months required to get competent skills in Gunnery, Navigation, Engineering, and Targeting?
Level 1 missions? Or should they just buy plex to fund the huge amount of frigs they will lose in their first 60 days of play?
Any game that requires you to be cannon fodder for the first months of play is a bad system.
If someone wants to play against people instead of against mindless and repetitive AI, they are best served by either starting an account and not playing for some months to allow skills to train, or buying an account at the cost of several hundred dollars.
I understand that people who sell toons, and those who feed off of noobs have no interest in changing that system. I don't pretend that I know enough about it to say it needs changing. I will say that it is needlessly difficult for new players to get into though, and that is problematic.
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Ohhhh Feely Nice
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:05:00 -
[38] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Xavier Holtzman wrote:What do you mean by "catch up"? Three tornadoes are walking down the street pappa tornado, mamma tornado, and a little baby tornado. Baby tornado starts lagging behind. Poppa tornado gets angry, goes over to the baby tornado, and instablaps him... and says, "Catch up"
ftfy |
Dave Stark
6185
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ashwind Houssa wrote:Sure, as a new player I can max out frig skills in a year. However if I focus my skills solely on frigs I will be stuck running low level missions until my skills make me not completely outclassed.
that isn't a flaw with the skill system, that's a flaw with you thinking that you've got to run missions. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
4821
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ashwind Houssa wrote:
Correct. But what should a new player do for the two months required to get competent skills in Gunnery, Navigation, Engineering, and Targeting?
Level 1 missions? Or should they just buy plex to fund the huge amount of frigs they will lose in their first 60 days of play?
Any game that requires you to be cannon fodder for the first months of play is a bad system.
If someone wants to play against people instead of against mindless and repetitive AI, they are best served by either starting an account and not playing for some months to allow skills to train, or buying an account at the cost of several hundred dollars.
I understand that people who sell toons, and those who feed off of noobs have no interest in changing that system. I don't pretend that I know enough about it to say it needs changing. I will say that it is needlessly difficult for new players to get into though, and that is problematic.
But it isnt
Its the fact that not enough vets want to help train new players thats the problem
Plus the inherent "dont trust anyone" clause.
But hey, if a couple of 400,000isk frigates a day is too much to replace without Plexing, I dont think the flaw is with the system at all. They should probably read the mining tutorials or try doing some Level II missions.
"A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares
"(Understanding when to fight and when not to) doesn't make the cautious pilot a care bear.... it makes him a winner." - Barbara Nichole |
Thius Taxus Thellere
Blueprint Mania
2
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ashwind Houssa wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ashwind Houssa wrote:Not a surprise that long termers have no problem with new players being food.
Sure, as a new player I can max out frig skills in a year. However if I focus my skills solely on frigs I will be stuck running low level missions until my skills make me not completely outclassed.
Nothing wrong with that per se, but the long termers acting like it isn't a huge hurdle to overcome is a part of the problem. Then again, given how many multi year accounts I see only farming new people, it seems a design decision. Maxed skilled frigates tend to go well with, oh, let me think...pvp Correct. But what should a new player do for the two months required to get competent skills in Gunnery, Navigation, Engineering, and Targeting? Level 1 missions? Or should they just buy plex to fund the huge amount of frigs they will lose in their first 60 days of play? Any game that requires you to be cannon fodder for the first months of play is a bad system. If someone wants to play against people instead of against mindless and repetitive AI, they are best served by either starting an account and not playing for some months to allow skills to train, or buying an account at the cost of several hundred dollars. I understand that people who sell toons, and those who feed off of noobs have no interest in changing that system. I don't pretend that I know enough about it to say it needs changing. I will say that it is needlessly difficult for new players to get into though, and that is problematic.
I'm not a null sec player but from what I understand groups like Brave Newbies will take brand new pilots with no skills and get them into a fleet. So that is an option. Also, there are plenty of things you can do while you are training skills. That is the great thing about this game. Also, I think it takes longer to become skilled at something than to actually train the skill points that actually allow to fly that ship.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
824
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ashwind Houssa wrote:
Correct. But what should a new player do for the two months required to get competent skills in Gunnery, Navigation, Engineering, and Targeting?
A: Why not PvP?
B: It really doesn't take two months to get "competent" skills. There's no real reason why 4s in most skills wouldn't be plenty for a brand new player, and there's certainly nothing preventing you from playing until you have every last damn thing at 5.
Quote:Level 1 missions? Or should they just buy plex to fund the huge amount of frigs they will lose in their first 60 days of play?
Why do you pretend like those are the only options?
Quote:Any game that requires you to be cannon fodder for the first months of play is a bad system.
It doesn't. Most veterans could start a new character and begin successfully PvPing almost immediately. I can count on my fingers the number of fights I've had that were close enough that a few more skillpoints could have pushed it one way or the other. Most frequently it's a curbstomping in one direction or the other because one player has the ship, fit and ability to counter the other player's fit.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1477
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Posted - 2014.06.03 18:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Please refrain from reopening locked threads.
The Rules:
25. Re-opening locked topics is prohibited.
Recreating or re-opening a thread that has been closed by a moderator is prohibited. Threads that have been closed by a moderator have been closed for the benefit of the community. Re-opening a locked thread will result in its removal.
ISD Ezwal
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department |
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