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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1510
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Posted - 2014.06.04 21:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Change: increase medium and small smartbomb damage to the same as large smartbombs now.
Now I know what you're thinking, you think making small smartbombs deal the same DPS as larges currently do would make frigates and destroyers overpowered. But would it really? Think about it. Yes, a smartbomb frigate or destroyer might out-DPS a turret one (not always), but small ship DPS is already really only major when in gangs, and with powerful smartbombs like that, they'll have to be extra careful not to kill each other. Consider this: battleship smartbomb damage is based around hitting frigates such as tacklers, and drones. It is balanced for attacking small targets, and it takes a considerable amount of smartbombs to really blap a frigate quickly.
So I'm thinking the only difference between smartbomb sizes offensively should be their blast radius. Battleships and capital ships will still be able to hit the largest number of targets with smartbombs, although a battleship can alternatively save a lot of powergrid and capacitor at the expense of range and go for a medium or small smartbomb.
Lastly, it would be nice if the capital ship smartbomb bug were fixed. For those of you who don't know: capital ships can take advantage of their large radius and gain a large smartbomb attack area around themselves. The bug is that the bump radius is smaller than the radius at which the smartbomb blast "begins", enabling them to attack with smartbombs at a greater radius than is listed in the smartbomb's info page. Along with fixing this, a capital smartbomb could be added with the same radius as or maybe a slightly larger radius than before, with the same damage as a large. This way, capital ships are not nerfed in their ability to hit a large area with smartbombs, but they will have to spend a significant amount of their capacitor and powergrid to get the maximum range. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
23
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Posted - 2014.06.04 21:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good idea!! proposing this for ages by now!! |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1510
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Posted - 2014.06.05 00:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Post a link to one of yours? I want to compare! Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
727
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Posted - 2014.06.05 00:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Would the cap use or fittings change for the smaller sizes?
And I believe it uses the model size for smart bombs rather than sig radius otherwise you might not be able to damage anything since you are bigger than your smart bomb blast area |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1510
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Posted - 2014.06.05 01:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Would the cap use or fittings change for the smaller sizes? I don't think so, but I have not yet ran any comparisons to see how they would pair up on larger ships.
Rowells wrote:And I believe it uses the model size for smart bombs rather than sig radius I think it might be based on model size, but it should be based on bump radius. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
24
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Posted - 2014.06.05 13:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=307274 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=179982
Just use the search function, jsut type in "smartbomb" and go back futher than 14 pages |
Atram41
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.06.05 13:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
This won't work.
A destroyer with a fit totaling 2.2 million ISK market price could do 2000 alpha. They can get 4 of those cycles in while in a 0.5 system before CONCORD arrives. That's 8000 smartbomb damage per destroyer.
10 destroyers, totalling 22 million ISK, could smartbomb an entire fleet of Skiffs.
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TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
217
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Posted - 2014.06.05 13:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
ASB
Ancillary SmartBombs
nuff said. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1510
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Posted - 2014.06.05 19:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Atram41 wrote:A destroyer with a fit totaling 2.2 million ISK market price could do 2000 alpha. They can get 4 of those cycles in while in a 0.5 system before CONCORD arrives. That's 8000 smartbomb damage per destroyer. 4 cycles would take 30 seconds. CONCORD doesn't take that long to arrive. If they did, a 10 mil Catalyst could kill a Mackinaw in highsec.
If the alpha is too high (and I'm thinking it is), then the rate of fire can be increased with a corresponding decrease in the damage.
Atram41 wrote:10 destroyers, totalling 22 million ISK, could smartbomb an entire fleet of Skiffs. 22 million ISK barely covers ten destroyer hulls. And this entire fleet of Skiffs would have to be flying pretty close together. I know mining fleets sometimes gang up on each other like that but they don't have to, and the reason they're okay with it is because it's not much of a danger. If it were, they would simply disperse a bit.
I don't see a problem with increasing the mineral cost of small and medium smartbombs to the same as large. That would make a single destroyer with 8 tech I smartbombs cost around 10-15 million ISK I'm thinking off the top of my head. I haven't checked the prices on those lately but I'm probably in the ballpark. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
200
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Posted - 2014.06.05 19:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:[quote=Atram41]A destroyer with a fit totaling 2.2 million ISK market price could do 2000 alpha. They can get 4 of those cycles in while in a 0.5 system before CONCORD arrives. That's 8000 smartbomb damage per destroyer. 4 cycles would take 30 seconds. CONCORD doesn't take that long to arrive. If they did, a 10 mil Catalyst could kill a Mackinaw in highsec.
If the alpha is too high (and I'm thinking it is), then the rate of fire can be increased with a corresponding decrease in the damage.
I'm fairly sure a catty can gank a mack, just sayin'
For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1510
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Posted - 2014.06.05 23:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:I'm fairly sure a catty can gank a mack, just sayin' Tanked? Not a chance.
With a fairly moderate tank consisting of balanced resists from shield hardeners and rigs, a tech 2 damage control, and a medium shield extender, a Mackinaw easily reaches over 35k EHP vs. hybrids. If a Catalyst with t2 neutron blasters, t2 mag stabs, damage rigs, Dread Guristas ammo, and overheated guns with a max skilled character were shooting the Mackinaw (EFT 604 DPS) and were making a huge string of perfectly wrecking shots (~900 DPS), it would take at least 40 seconds to take out the Mackinaw. Given that you don't even get 20 seconds, you aren't going to get that many wrecking shots, CONCORD will jam sometimes, and the lack of availability of small Dread Guristas antimatter ammo, it's pretty much unreasonable to assume even three catalysts can do it without being very lucky. Now those catalysts are each going to cost 15-20 mil minimum.
Now if the Mackinaw isn't tanked, that's a different story, and irrelevant as people who don't tank their ships when they are fully capable of doing so cheaply get what's coming to them. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1622
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Posted - 2014.06.06 00:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
not to mention, groups of destroyers smartbombing will likely kill each other before concord even gets a chance.
im cautious of the idea though. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
609
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Posted - 2014.06.06 00:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
The first wave of destroyers to get a cycle off annihilates everything around them. There won't be a second pulse... "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1510
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Posted - 2014.06.06 01:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:ASB
Ancillary SmartBombs
nuff said. I'm into the idea. I think they would work best by being able to pulse off more total damage than a typical ship could (with smartbombs) before it ran out of capacitor, and would damage at a higher rate while active, but would have a cooldown longer than a typical ship would need to recharge that capacitor.
Perhaps 25% more damage than tech 2 with the same duration (375 damage, 10s), runs for 6 cycles (45-60 seconds), same range as tech 1, and has a 2 minute cooldown. It also uses capacitor booster charges, but can run without them at 56.25% greater capacitor cost than a tech 2 smartbomb. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Zexy Jeffries
King of Bongo Bong
4
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
I agree!! WIth the T2 ships buffs, including the ceptors, they can only be killed by rack of 7 racial sb's. It actualy nerfed smartbombs, so yes! |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
486
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Change: increase medium and small smartbomb damage to the same as large smartbombs now.
Now I know what you're thinking, you think making small smartbombs deal the same DPS as larges currently do would make frigates and destroyers overpowered. But would it really? Think about it. Yes, a smartbomb frigate or destroyer might out-DPS a turret one (not always), but small ship DPS is already really only major when in gangs, and with powerful smartbombs like that, they'll have to be extra careful not to kill each other. Consider this: battleship smartbomb damage is based around hitting frigates such as tacklers, and drones. It is balanced for attacking small targets, and it takes a considerable amount of smartbombs to really blap a frigate quickly.
So I'm thinking the only difference between smartbomb sizes offensively should be their blast radius. Battleships and capital ships will still be able to hit the largest number of targets with smartbombs, although a battleship can alternatively save a lot of powergrid and capacitor at the expense of range and go for a medium or small smartbomb.
Lastly, it would be nice if the capital ship smartbomb bug were fixed. For those of you who don't know: capital ships can take advantage of their large radius and gain a large smartbomb attack area around themselves. The bug is that the bump radius is smaller than the radius at which the smartbomb blast "begins", enabling them to attack with smartbombs at a greater radius than is listed in the smartbomb's info page. Along with fixing this, a capital smartbomb could be added with the same radius as or maybe a slightly larger radius than before, with the same damage as a large. This way, capital ships are not nerfed in their ability to hit a large area with smartbombs, but they will have to spend a significant amount of their capacitor and powergrid to get the maximum range.
stealth 'buff smartbomb so i can suicide macknaw fleets with catalysts' thread
no. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
71
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Or stealth "let me and my destroyer focused alts create an absolute field of death for anything but a bricktanked battleship or captial to land in my smartbomb trap o' doom" thread. If you use keep at range right on a gate or station, you could grid the bombs so tightly they would absolutly wreck anything landing in such a space. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
151
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rather see them get the same range than damage tbh. Agree that the damage values of all are worth a look but this isn't a solution at all. Travelling at the speed of love. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1757
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Posted - 2014.08.15 21:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Rather see them get the same range than damage tbh. Agree that the damage values of all are worth a look but this isn't a solution at all. The only time smartbombs do a lot of damage is when they are layered from several ships, overlapping each other. Destroyers can't afford to overlap smartbombs because they'll kill each other. Giving them the same damage as battleship smartbombs won't make destroyers into powerful smartbombers, it won't even make them fearful. It'll just make them viable. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1757
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Posted - 2014.08.15 21:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:stealth 'buff smartbomb so i can suicide macknaw fleets with catalysts' thread
no. Even with the buff, it'd still be easier to get macks with blasters. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
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Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
114
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Posted - 2014.08.15 21:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Yeah doing this is begging for a bad time, increasing the damage ( Like someone mentioned already ) opens the door to destroy pipe bombs, Smartbomb suicide ganks in high sec on fleets of Skiff's or such as well as the out DPS / Out alpha'ing every other ship in its weight class.
Or imagine trying to do Small FW plexes with a catalyst sitting there that alpha's your worm with Smartbombs when you warp in, as much as i wouldnt mind being able to do that i still dont think its a balanced idea what so ever. At least not in this iteration of it Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1758
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Posted - 2014.08.16 01:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Yeah doing this is begging for a bad time, increasing the damage ( Like someone mentioned already ) opens the door to destroy pipe bombs, Smartbomb suicide ganks in high sec on fleets of Skiff's or such as well as the out DPS / Out alpha'ing every other ship in its weight class.
Or imagine trying to do Small FW plexes with a catalyst sitting there that alpha's your worm with Smartbombs when you warp in, as much as i wouldnt mind being able to do that i still dont think its a balanced idea what so ever. At least not in this iteration of it Please provide an example that any of these things would be possible, as I have repeatedly provided examples that they are not. Yours and everyone else's claims against my proposal are unfounded and based on nothing more than rough opinion.
1.) it would take around ten smartbombing destroyers to gank a tanked Mackinaw in highsec, and that's assuming they can all get in range of the Mack without killing each other before CONCORD arrives -- I'm sure they could do it, but it would take some time to set up, so they'd probably only get someone who is either AFK or stubborn. Anyone who saw ten catalysts forming up around their barge would probably warp off.
2.) smartbombing destroyers or battlecruisers are potentially useful for mobile firewalls that can be moved into position faster than battleships, but they aren't used much at current because their low HP, low damage, and low range make then ineffective. Increasing only the damage to match battleship firewalls still leaves destroyer/BC firewalls far less effective as they have much less overlap capacity due to reduced range and HP.
3.) blaster catalyst can do much more DPS than 8 battleship smartbombs. Battleship smartbomb DPS (tech 2): 40 * 8 = 320
4.) it's only 2400 alpha max. It is certainly not enough to blap a Worm, which has 2584 EM EHP with no modules and no skills. You can easily bring a Worm to over 7500 EHP. But as I said earlier, the frigate smartbombs can have a faster rate of fire and lower damage to preserve the battleship smartbomb DPS but have lower alpha.
In short, it would still take too many destroyers to cause much grief for it to be a problem. There's a lot of reasons nobody uses smartbombs on destroyers, damage being only one of them. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Hemmo Paskiainen
462
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Posted - 2014.08.16 08:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Just simply bann smartbombs from high sec CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
73
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Posted - 2014.08.16 08:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:Just simply bann smartbombs from high sec it already warns you, and almost always gets you concorded, but why hardcode any more bans, especially ones not related to capitals? That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1759
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Posted - 2014.08.16 16:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:Just simply bann smartbombs from high sec If CCP had any desire to go that route, they would have disallowed combat in highsec. Clearly they don't have a problem with ganking.
Now as I have repeatedly shown and demonstrated, destroyers with battleship-damage smartbombs would not make overpowered gank ships. They might actually be decent with smartbombs, but the only thing they'd really kill very well would be frigates. It'd probably be a lot easier and more effective to just use turrets against a frigate, especially since you'd be hard-pressed to find two frigates close enough together for a destroyer to gank them, and then get close enough to them before they run away. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
902
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Posted - 2014.08.16 19:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Why not just make smart bombs do the reverse for damage scaling The smaller the more damage but less range Have them all fall into the eh I have an open slot area rather than be a dedicated choice |
CW Itovuo
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
34
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Posted - 2014.08.16 19:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Smartbombs could use some tweaking, in terms of Variants/DPS/Range/Fitting/Cap. Something to help w/ the current drone-meta.
Giving a small smartbomb the same DPS output as a large is not the right type of help.
Whatever you want the Smartbomb to be, the second point in the scale of balance is the Capsule.
Large smartbombs have a 300 DPS volly. Your average capsule has about 430 HP. There's a sort of balance in those numbers. A battleship dedicating it's utility spot to a SB, doesn't have the alpha to destroy a capsule. The only way it would work is by way of dedicated fit (giving up a gun) or by cooperation (fleet mate).
What you're suggesting would create massive imbalance/rage. A tackle frig which is already orbiting you at 500m would be guaranteed a pod kill if fit with two or more small smartbombs.
Getting podded is part of the game. But constant pod loss due to smartbombing tackling ships would not be a healthy change. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1759
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Posted - 2014.08.16 19:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
CW Itovuo wrote:What you're suggesting would create massive imbalance/rage. A tackle frig which is already orbiting you at 500m would be guaranteed a pod kill if fit with two or more small smartbombs.
Getting podded is part of the game. But constant pod loss due to smartbombing tackling ships would not be a healthy change. Wow, first person to make a valid point. And I think this is definitely something important to think about.
I did say earlier the smartbombs could have the DPS of large with a faster cycle and smaller hit, but it wasn't until now that I actually felt it was an important distinction. That's an excellent point, and I will at the very least edit my original post to stress that the alpha of these things should be lower.
How do you feel about frig smartbombs matching battleship smartbombs in DPS, say if they had half the alpha or less? Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
504
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Posted - 2014.08.17 01:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:4 cycles would take 30 seconds. CONCORD doesn't take that long to arrive. If they did, a 10 mil Catalyst could kill a Mackinaw in highsec.
#1 Smartbomb damage starts at the begining of cycle #2 Skill reduces the duration by 25% #3 Heating them reduces duration by another 15% #4 Jamming does not affect smartbombs #5 You can use cap boosters to get cap for another cycle after getting neuted by concord (correct me if I am wrong)
Duration is 6.38 2 cycles is 6.38 sec 3 cycles is 12.76 sec 4 cycles is 19.14
16.4 sec fror concord to start doing their business You don't die instantly.
Maybe you cant get 4 cycles off but you can easily get 3 off and it is nowhere near 30 sec
Educate yourself before you try to tell someone how he is wrong.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
CW Itovuo
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
35
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Posted - 2014.08.17 03:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
How do you feel about frig smartbombs matching battleship smartbombs in DPS, say if they had half the alpha or less?
Against.
I view Smartbombs as a DEFENSIVE module.
The fact that they're used offensively to much greater effect is just one of those funny EVE quirks. I certainly don't want to remove that option, it always makes for good youtube videos. But I'm hesitant to lobby for improvements, as any defensive improvement just makes the offensive variant that much more potent.
Small modules should do small damage.
Small modules could use some love in terms of engagement range, so that they're more effective against Medium/Heavy drones which have larger orbit/engage range.
And activation costs need some serious attention, as small modules are grossly penalized. Small SB -4 cap per second Small MWD -3.75 cap per second
Medium SB -10 cap per second Medium MWD -15 cap per second
Large SB -29 per second Large MWD -59 per second
Anyway, I'm checking out of this thread, I've posted the B-word way too many times. Black van with an "Extradite Snowden" bumper sticker on it keeps driving by...
Someone say hello to Rancer for me ! |
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