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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 10:54:00 -
[1]
The ECM system in EVE is giving me stress. I know people have been whining about this and there's even a sticky threat about it, but i just NEED to write this.
It's becomming more and more "normal" when you pick a fight in belts, gates, stations and so forth, that people have these modules fitted. IT'S REDICULUS!!! Frigates, cruisers, you name it... EVERYONE fits one ECM module and because of that i'm in my 300 mill ship which is TOTALLY WORHLESS vs any ship with ECM. Frigates can jam you with luck every 1 min, cruisers can jam you frequently, like every 30 sec and battleships can have you jammed constantly. It's not even necessary to train the skills very high. My mate in a tempest with ONLY jamming lvl 4 can jam me constantly. Then we have the ECCM, that should counter the ECM.. well..... it doesn't. No, even you fill all your low slots on a geddon with ECCM, then a guy with lvl 4 jamming and 1 ECM fitted can jam you with luck.
I have a RL friend, who is in FIX, he tested the ECM one day vs a Carrier. A Carrier has 76 points in radar strength. He fitted standard multispecs on a scrop and he could jam him constantly. A very few times the carrier had a chance to start locking him, but hey? guess what? after a few seconds he jammed him again and the carrier couldn't even lock him.
For gods sake please make the jamming system like BEFORE you screwed it up. Or please please please please please please please please please please please please do something about it soon, cause it ****es me off and it destroys battles... At least this is what I think.
Heads up to the sticky post lots of good ideas, now let's see some action on the jamming problem instead of chit chat.
Regards
Cown
PS: Sorry about the whining. I bought milk and cookies.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:04:00 -
[2]
a few people i know have quit over this, and lots more say if this situation isnt fixed they will quit since they dont like playing a game where chance is suck a big part of winning!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:11:00 -
[3]
I've heard that too Gronsak and it also makes myself think about just closing the account and waiting for something to happend..
But then again i really hope CCP listens to their players and the sticky should be proof of that. Now we just need some action on the subject.. In my opinion it cant be done fast enough, but the idea also have to work, that's why i suggested the old jamming method and then maybe in the future something new and fancy...
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:16:00 -
[4]
I use 4xECM on my cruiser. It's pretty dominating. Nothing can stop me and even worse 2 people can't even stop me (2x per ship). Normaly people don't fit ECCM but the problem with ECM as I see atm is the counter does nothing vs ECM. This is really a bad thing when it comes to the balance of the ECM system. This isn't like the WCS issue or Nos issue that players are complaining about. WCS counter does work, it's called a warp scrambler/disruptor/warp bubble and the Nos counter does work, it's called cap injectors/ecm/damps/ect. ECM counter however is what? Dieing?
Please after the drone fix because we know how much drones need to be fixed before this important game matter, fix ECCM and ECM systems.
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Vile - Recruiting 0.0 Pirates
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:22:00 -
[5]
jammings for girls, wheres my skirt |
Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:30:00 -
[6]
Agreed Famine.
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:31:00 -
[7]
yes it is totally ridiculous. at least before the change you could expect a scorp to dedicate 5 slots to multispecs and fit 2 lows with ECCM which are useless for everything else but at least can counter it, until the enemy changes setups that is. at the moment ECM is the most broken combat mechanic imo.
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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:36:00 -
[8]
Yeah exactly Keta Min, they should do something about it as fast as possible and as you write with the old system you would expect jamming ships to jam, today everyone jams.
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Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:38:00 -
[9]
Actually, ECCM improves your chances of not being locked, and if you are already locked clikcing on eccm makes the ecm start their activation round again. It's a good module, just a little bit underpowered atm, since the bonus it gives is too small to be effective, however fitting 2 of them makes you almost immune...
It's just a matter of ppl not wanting to use 2 slots to be immune to ECM. As far as I'm conserned, if you don't want to use 1 slot for ECCM, or other forms of countermeasures you should lose your ship 9 times out of 10 in pvp, as you are walking around with your pants down, totaly unprepared.
The fact ppl are fitting ECM is about as redicilous as ppl fitting guns, tanks, warp scramblers or WCS. It's an integral part of the game. Deal with it.
Adapt.
Survive.
Resistance is futile.
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Reatu Krentor
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:41:00 -
[10]
I read an interesting reply once in the now giant ecm thread, it was about what really is the thing that's bugging people about it.
Imo it's not the why they work atm that has everyone so annoyed, it's the effect it has. When the dice roll is succesfull it completely locks down the target's offensive systems. I think that's the problem. Yes, you can fit eccm to have more unjammed time, but once jammed you can not do anything but wait untill it's over. Change this aspect and ecm becomes less annoying to people.
Do I think ECM is too strong? maybe just a bit with the complete lockdown of the target. I use ecm on tempest, but in all my fights, i've never managed to keep someone jammed 100% of the time.
Do I think ECCM is too weak? Yes, I do. Remove the stacking penalty(if it's there) and perhaps boost the strength further. That should help quite a bit.
Do I think the old ECM is better? Heck no, ecm was only useable on ships with a lot of free mid slots(aka Scorpions). It was pointless to even consider using ecm on a Tempest for example. More fitting options = more different tactics = more fun.
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"I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you.  " -_ Twilight Moon |
Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:42:00 -
[11]
Fitting 2 ECCM to become immune? I dont think so... we tryed it doesn't work.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:50:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 11/06/2006 11:51:24
Pff, whiners.
ECM is one of the most essential parts of combat balance. Kick it back into obscurity and you end up with nothing but a contest of who's doing the most damage in the right order again. Booooring.
ECM is somewhat overpowered yes, see various other threads. Better defence (only slightly) and less offensive power are warranted (on non-specialist ships).
Yes, it may (currently) be death for solo pvp when targets all fit ecm mods in defence, and when effective defense against ecm needs twice the lots the ecm needs. But at the same time it's life for group pvp where ecm can break the reign of uber dps.
So, in short, yes I agree that ecm badgers can do with a nerf to the ecm mod effectiveness. However, the scorp, BB and falcon/rook etc. should remain as powerfull as they are today since the role they play is essential to a healthier group pvp scene.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:52:00 -
[13]
 Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Pff, whiners.
ECM is one of the most essential parts of combat balance. Kick it back into obscurity and you end up with nothing but a contest of who's doing the most damage in the right order again. Booooring.
as to now, the contest of who has most ecm fitted and gets the first sucessfull cycle
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Forsch
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Laboratus
Actually, ECCM improves your chances of not being locked, and if you are already locked clikcing on eccm makes the ecm start their activation round again.
What?
Forsch
Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cown
Fitting 2 ECCM to become immune? I dont think so... we tryed it doesn't work.
Try it like this. Someone starts to jam you with multiple mods. At some point he will succeed in a jam. Click ECCM. This will prolly brake the jam. Lock target. If it doesn't work, click the other ECCM. Lock target. You should have a pretty good chance at this point of not being jammed, as the chance of being jammed per cycle is somewhere around 5 to 20% depending on ship etc ofcourse.
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.06.11 11:57:00 -
[16]
Jamming modules are very powerful and anti-jamming modules are very weak. This power gap causes a lot of frustration with EW.
We don't have to nerf jamming into near-uselessness. We could simply beef up the anti-ew.
How about this: 1 t2 anti-jamming mod reduces your chances of getting jamming by 80%?
Seems like a lot, but with 20% chance of getting jammed, that's still something to fear. Arguments like "if anti-jamming is too powerful, everyone will use it and make jamming useless" - are wrong, because if everyone started fitting anti-jammers that made jamming useless, people would stop using jammers and fit other mods, which in turn would make fitting anti-jammers useless. A balance would gradually evolve.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.06.11 12:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Gronsak on 11/06/2006 12:02:26
Originally by: Ephemeron
Jamming modules are very powerful and anti-jamming modules are very weak. This power gap causes a lot of frustration with EW.
We don't have to nerf jamming into near-uselessness. We could simply beef up the anti-ew.
How about this: 1 t2 anti-jamming mod reduces your chances of getting jamming by 80%?
Seems like a lot, but with 20% chance of getting jammed, that's still something to fear. Arguments like "if anti-jamming is too powerful, everyone will use it and make jamming useless" - are wrong, because if everyone started fitting anti-jammers that made jamming useless, people would stop using jammers and fit other mods, which in turn would make fitting anti-jammers useless. A balance would gradually evolve.
it cant work like this
there was a time when lasers where extramly overpowered, why didnt the devs introduce a mod that you fit onto your ship that reduces the damage of lasers done to your ship and only lasers? becase its a stupid way to balance things,
take this for example, the retribution is an AF and has 1 mid slot, you want it to give up its only mid slot for ECCM? it cant do that
if something is greatly overpowered like ecm/damps/tracking desrupter they need a nerf, u cant intro mods to fix the problem since ships cant spare slots!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s |
Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.11 12:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Jamming modules are very powerful and anti-jamming modules are very weak. This power gap causes a lot of frustration with EW.
We don't have to nerf jamming into near-uselessness. We could simply beef up the anti-ew.
How about this: 1 t2 anti-jamming mod reduces your chances of getting jamming by 80%?
Seems like a lot, but with 20% chance of getting jammed, that's still something to fear. Arguments like "if anti-jamming is too powerful, everyone will use it and make jamming useless" - are wrong, because if everyone started fitting anti-jammers that made jamming useless, people would stop using jammers and fit other mods, which in turn would make fitting anti-jammers useless. A balance would gradually evolve.
While I definately agree with you that that should be the point of ECCM, the mechanic just doesn't work that way. Due to the fact you get multiple iterations instead of just one check to jam, all changes in basic propability grow exponentially, with regards to as many ECM modules are used, ofcourse.
But, I do think that the solution to this problem is not nerfing ECM, its either boosting ECCM module effectiveness (or combining sensor booster modules, but that would be kinda daft, as one module would protect against 2 different types of EW (damps and jammers))
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Talasan
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Posted - 2006.06.11 12:16:00 -
[19]
totally agree with the OP
Its horrendus to think someone can have my rupture perma jammed with a single un-named multispec and the jamming skill at level 1
i have regular fights with a certain corp, one member in particular always up for a fight uses this 1 un-named multi spec in his mid of his rupture, every fight i have with him he usually perma jams me for about 4-5 cycles before it fails, then after that one fail it goes back to perma jam ***ness. id expect this fighting a blackbird....
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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 12:20:00 -
[20]
Laboratus: You do realize that low slot ECCM cant be activated right? Also it only gives 30% to strength... If you decide to use the mid slot versions (60% boost) not much of a difference tbh. Also I fly amarr which doesn't give me many mid slots to fit those 60%.
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2006.06.11 12:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Cown
Fitting 2 ECCM to become immune? I dont think so... we tryed it doesn't work.
Try it like this. Someone starts to jam you with multiple mods. At some point he will succeed in a jam. Click ECCM. This will prolly brake the jam. Lock target. If it doesn't work, click the other ECCM. Lock target. You should have a pretty good chance at this point of not being jammed, as the chance of being jammed per cycle is somewhere around 5 to 20% depending on ship etc ofcourse.
why would i do that if i can fit ECM too and jam him first instead? and this is exactly what happens. oh wait that's the definition of an overpowered module, the best counter to it is using it yourself.
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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 12:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Keta Min
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Cown
Fitting 2 ECCM to become immune? I dont think so... we tryed it doesn't work.
Try it like this. Someone starts to jam you with multiple mods. At some point he will succeed in a jam. Click ECCM. This will prolly brake the jam. Lock target. If it doesn't work, click the other ECCM. Lock target. You should have a pretty good chance at this point of not being jammed, as the chance of being jammed per cycle is somewhere around 5 to 20% depending on ship etc ofcourse.
why would i do that if i can fit ECM too and jam him first instead? and this is exactly what happens. oh wait that's the definition of an overpowered module, the best counter to it is using it yourself.
Yes.. good point Keta Min, why fit ECCM if you can encounter it by jamming first?
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Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.11 12:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cown
Originally by: Keta Min
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Cown
Fitting 2 ECCM to become immune? I dont think so... we tryed it doesn't work.
Try it like this. Someone starts to jam you with multiple mods. At some point he will succeed in a jam. Click ECCM. This will prolly brake the jam. Lock target. If it doesn't work, click the other ECCM. Lock target. You should have a pretty good chance at this point of not being jammed, as the chance of being jammed per cycle is somewhere around 5 to 20% depending on ship etc ofcourse.
why would i do that if i can fit ECM too and jam him first instead? and this is exactly what happens. oh wait that's the definition of an overpowered module, the best counter to it is using it yourself.
Yes.. good point Keta Min, why fit ECCM if you can encounter it by jamming first?
This is one of the reasons why the ECCM module is borked at the moment. It gives no other value, except to avoid jamming. It should give some other added value, to be truly usefull.
However, unless you are flying a sensor boostered frigate with ecm, you cannot guarantee you jam first and are in deep trouble, if the other guy gets his jam cycle in first...
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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 13:17:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Cown on 11/06/2006 13:16:48
Yeah it's always about being the first to jam and i dont think it should be like that.
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PauZotoh Zhaan
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Posted - 2006.06.11 13:37:00 -
[25]
Best is when you get jammed by frig:) And you are in ... BS:)
ECM should work like old times, you want to jam Battleships with 17 strenght, you have to use 5x4mutlispec = 20 strenght.
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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 13:46:00 -
[26]
Yep i think so too PauZotoh Zhaan
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Yee Do
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Posted - 2006.06.11 13:57:00 -
[27]
Could the problems with ECM be eased if instead of jamming your ship, ECM jammed a percentage of your turrets? For instance, you are flying a cruiser with 4 guns and a NOS and get jammed by a frigate. Instead of losing your target and hence your guns, you keep your target, but some percentage of your turret slots go inactive as they try to regain lock?
Add some modules that could reduce the effects and you get your balancing game back. Forgive me if this idea isn't new, I just thought of it looking at the issue from the viewpoint of a relatively new player.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.11 14:04:00 -
[28]
Bring back the old system \o/
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.06.11 14:06:00 -
[29]
ECM has decreased the ability gap between genuinely resourceful pvp'ers and people with lots of mid slots.
Where as intelligence and patience once paid off if you were completely outnumbered it doesn't anymore because if you bring less people you dont get to shoot.
Obviously it isn't quite as absolute as this but its certainly blurred the distinction.
This is the reason it []has to[/b] change.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.06.11 14:06:00 -
[30]
ECM should just take the sensor strength of the ship and use it in the calculation for the success of the jam. The higher the better. Give dedicated jamming ships higher sensor strength.
=> frigs can still jam frigs, but not battleships as easily.
=> battleships can jam every size with a good chance (maybe like the current one)
=> dedicated jamming ships can still jam every size with a reasonable chance.
==> ECM won't be used on so many non-ew ships anymore! (since ew ships are the ones with higher sensor strength and thus greater chance of success.)
Forsch
Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
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