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Cohkka
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Posted - 2006.06.11 14:30:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 11/06/2006 11:51:24
Pff, whiners.
ECM is one of the most essential parts of combat balance. Kick it back into obscurity and you end up with nothing but a contest of who's doing the most damage in the right order again. Booooring.
ECM is somewhat overpowered yes, see various other threads. Better defence (only slightly) and less offensive power are warranted (on non-specialist ships).
Yes, it may (currently) be death for solo pvp when targets all fit ecm mods in defence, and when effective defense against ecm needs twice the lots the ecm needs. But at the same time it's life for group pvp where ecm can break the reign of uber dps.
So, in short, yes I agree that ecm badgers can do with a nerf to the ecm mod effectiveness. However, the scorp, BB and falcon/rook etc. should remain as powerfull as they are today since the role they play is essential to a healthier group pvp scene.
Rod, ECM always played a big part in small skirmishes, it never was that powerfull in fleetbattles. It symply isn't today. What CCP did is to increase it's usefullnes by alot in small scale battles and making it retardedly overpowered in solo-engagements. It's simply breaking the game since large scale battles make up <1% of EVEs PvP. And everything below is dominated by ECM!
The major issues as I see it are:
Non-ECM ships can successfuly use 1 ECM module and with a bit of luck absolutly lockdown a BS for about 30 secs.
It's random. You win or loose regardles of skill. It's like having WCS wich can randomly destroy your ship once in a 10min cycle... (that would be fun tho  )
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Vito Parabellum
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Posted - 2006.06.11 14:47:00 -
[32]
I dislike systems where the roll of a dice is paramount for winning. In the old system if you didnt fit enough jammers to jam a certain ship, it just plain failed. If the ship had a single ECCM module fitted, you would fail too unless you countered it with an extra jammer. And if Im not mistaken, you didnt even know if you had successfully jammed him or not, sometimes your shield vanishing would tell you :p
So chance based is crap, the current system is imbalanced, bring back the old system!
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Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.11 14:48:00 -
[33]
ECM is good way it is. It allow newbies to compete in PvP
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.06.11 15:01:00 -
[34]
I've found that ECCMs and backups help a lot - but you need to have them fitted across the whole fleet.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
fire 59
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Posted - 2006.06.11 15:06:00 -
[35]
How about if the eccm also reduced the amount of time you were jammed, instead of 20 sec's, say 10 sec's maybe goin dwn with mre and mre eccm, with stacking penalty of course but you see where im going
Iron and G eat babie's , my views are my own, they do not refect my corp or my alliance |
Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 16:09:00 -
[36]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 11/06/2006 14:06:17
ECM has decreased the ability gap between genuinely resourceful pvp'ers and people with lots of mid slots.
Where as intelligence and patience once paid off if you were completely outnumbered it doesn't anymore because if you bring less people you dont get to shoot.
Obviously it isn't quite as absolute as this but its certainly blurred the distinction.
This is the reason it has to change.
Totally agree.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.11 16:17:00 -
[37]
the ecm fix needs to come fast, its utterly retarded atm 
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.06.11 16:20:00 -
[38]
/me hugs her 13.5 jammers
having 6mio in electronics pays off 
From Dusk till Dawn
Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected]) |
Drazin DawnTreader
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Posted - 2006.06.11 16:32:00 -
[39]
ECM is fine. Its one of the very few ways a small ship can keep a heavy NOS from sucking them dry.
What needs to be fixed is ECCM.
Better countermeasures will make a better game.
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sirlisterofsmeg
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Posted - 2006.06.11 16:39:00 -
[40]
ECM probably wont get nerfed as it would make ships like BB+scorp useless, ECCM may get boosted but its never going to successfully countermeasure all the time... Its all luck
Oh and to beat ECM... ECM IT!!
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Nahia Senne
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Posted - 2006.06.11 16:41:00 -
[41]
current ecm system is completely broken. even returning it to the way it was would be a considerable improvement.
best way to figure out something is broken? check if everyone and their grandfather fits one on every single ship they fly.
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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 16:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
the ecm fix needs to come fast, its utterly retarded atm
Yep, action is needed and needed fast.. as it is right now it's ridiculous.
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Haniblecter Teg
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Posted - 2006.06.11 17:56:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Gronsak
a few people i know have quit over this, and lots more say if this situation isnt fixed they will quit since they dont like playing a game where chance is suck a big part of winning!
Quit over jamming?
*****ing about a 5% chance ot jam?
Jeez, relax. The system is ok, I think the percentage to jam should be lowered across the board, and the ECCM modules made more effective. That should balance it out nicely.
In the mean time, fit ECCM and fit/bring friends with, ECM to counter the ECM.
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Friends Forever
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Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.11 18:10:00 -
[44]
ECM is fine, what needs to be fixed is ECCM.
Boost ECCM.
60% bonus to basic mod.
80% bonus to t2 mod.
And a usefull side-effect (so ppl will actually fit them, instead of just whining, when they lose, as they don't fit them. Make it do real good coffee or something.).
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2006.06.11 18:19:00 -
[45]
ecm is not fine, is the iwin button!
every fight with ecm i lose... 'cause i can't fight!
damn let me fight and then see what happen...!!!
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Woopie
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Posted - 2006.06.11 18:19:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Laboratus
ECM is fine, what needs to be fixed is ECCM.
Boost ECCM.
60% bonus to basic mod.
80% bonus to t2 mod.
And a usefull side-effect (so ppl will actually fit them, instead of just whining, when they lose, as they don't fit them. Make it do real good coffee or something.).
Indeed, why would anyone in his right mind fit a ECCM when he could fit ECM which mathematically and logically yields a much better result for only tiny bit more of CPU.
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Laboratus
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Posted - 2006.06.11 18:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Laboratus
ECM is fine, what needs to be fixed is ECCM.
Boost ECCM.
60% bonus to basic mod.
80% bonus to t2 mod.
And a usefull side-effect (so ppl will actually fit them, instead of just whining, when they lose, as they don't fit them. Make it do real good coffee or something.).
Indeed, why would anyone in his right mind fit a ECCM when he could fit ECM which mathematically and logically yields a much better result for only tiny bit more of CPU.
Umm... When using a single t1 multispec in a hypothetical domi vs domi:
Multispec vs domi (Max skill yada yada):
ECM strenth 5 Signal strenth 22 (5/22)~= 23% chance of jam
ECCMd domi vs multispec:
ECM str 5 Signal strengh (5/33)~= 15% chance of jam
Chance of getting both the un ECCMd and the ECCMD jam round through
(0.23*0.15*100%) = 3.45%
Not much, and the chance that both succeed is abysmal. A simple boost the the ECCM strenth would bring that down even more...
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Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 18:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Gronsak
a few people i know have quit over this, and lots more say if this situation isnt fixed they will quit since they dont like playing a game where chance is suck a big part of winning!
Quit over jamming?
*****ing about a 5% chance ot jam?
Jeez, relax. The system is ok, I think the percentage to jam should be lowered across the board, and the ECCM modules made more effective. That should balance it out nicely.
In the mean time, fit ECCM and fit/bring friends with, ECM to counter the ECM.
No offense, but he who lacks to see the problem with ECM as it is right now must be crazy.
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Woopie
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Posted - 2006.06.11 18:40:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Woopie on 11/06/2006 18:43:37
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Laboratus
ECM is fine, what needs to be fixed is ECCM.
Boost ECCM.
60% bonus to basic mod.
80% bonus to t2 mod.
And a usefull side-effect (so ppl will actually fit them, instead of just whining, when they lose, as they don't fit them. Make it do real good coffee or something.).
Indeed, why would anyone in his right mind fit a ECCM when he could fit ECM which mathematically and logically yields a much better result for only tiny bit more of CPU.
Umm... When using a single t1 multispec in a hypothetical domi vs domi:
Multispec vs domi (Max skill yada yada):
ECM strenth 5 Signal strenth 22 (5/22)~= 23% chance of jam
ECCMd domi vs multispec:
ECM str 5 Signal strengh (5/33)~= 15% chance of jam
Chance of getting both the un ECCMd and the ECCMD jam round through
(0.23*0.15*100%) = 3.45%
Not much, and the chance that both succeed is abysmal. A simple boost the the ECCM strenth would bring that down even more...
Not gona go through the math, just look at the logistics.
ECM domi will "defend" it self vs other ECM ships using his own ECM, just that is very effective..
But wait! He will also "defend" him self vs all ships not just ECM ships (huge bonus over ECCM)
But but.. there is more, he will actually get more than just the ability maintain lock his lock, but he will kill the other onces lock, giving him a double win.
Now I did go through the actual stastical part long time ago and using ECM as ECM defense is wastly better than ECCM.
edit: I almost forgot. Nobody jamming you, but you gang mates getting jammed? ECM to the recuse! (the moral is ECM does more for your gang than a idle module doing nothing)
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Jimmy Chow
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Posted - 2006.06.11 19:41:00 -
[50]
I like the current ECM system overall but I think that there could be a couple of tweaks.
* Boost ECCM strenght a little say 20% overall
* Make Ship Sized ECM modules. Just like ECM drones have ECM strength of 1, a frigate ECM should have less ECM strength (and range) than a Cruiser which should have less then a BS one. (I think this was stated earlier by someone. You could also beef the cap requiremetns up so that ECM on smaller - non EW ships would be a lot harder.
I have found that if I fit one low and one mid slot ECCM I have fairly good resistances to ECM.
FOF missles can also counter ECM for you missle users.
So sure, you are out solo and some frigate jams you and it drives you nuts. I can see that but that is part of the game and there are plenty of modules and setups (and strategy!) that allow you to counter ECM.
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Aeaus
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Posted - 2006.06.11 19:52:00 -
[51]
ECM is a tad bit overpowered in my opinion, but coming prepared allows you to counter people who like to use a lot of ECM.
It has reduced the skill gap, because unlike somebody said it's not about damage and tanking, it's about everything working together. Now it's about the first lock and the most ECM modules.
My Guides (Recomended Reading) |
Cown
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Posted - 2006.06.11 20:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jimmy Chow
I like the current ECM system overall but I think that there could be a couple of tweaks.
* Boost ECCM strenght a little say 20% overall
* Make Ship Sized ECM modules. Just like ECM drones have ECM strength of 1, a frigate ECM should have less ECM strength (and range) than a Cruiser which should have less then a BS one. (I think this was stated earlier by someone. You could also beef the cap requiremetns up so that ECM on smaller - non EW ships would be a lot harder.
I have found that if I fit one low and one mid slot ECCM I have fairly good resistances to ECM.
FOF missles can also counter ECM for you missle users.
So sure, you are out solo and some frigate jams you and it drives you nuts. I can see that but that is part of the game and there are plenty of modules and setups (and strategy!) that allow you to counter ECM.
An ok suggestion with the sized ECM modules.. sounds reasonable - still i would like to see some action as fast as possible.
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Padaxes
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Posted - 2006.06.11 20:52:00 -
[53]
Ive said it before and I`ll say it again, I just wish they would put ECM back the way it was, no more random rubbish.
Small ships couldnt jam big ships very easily, you could fit mods that boosted your strength so you KNEW you could stop a ship jamming you at the expense of your tank for instance. You COULD fill all your mid slots with jamming and garuntee that you could jam someone at the expense of shield tank / etc.
PLEASE put it back!!!!!!!!
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tiller
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Posted - 2006.06.11 21:22:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Padaxes
Ive said it before and I`ll say it again, I just wish they would put ECM back the way it was, no more random rubbish.
Small ships couldnt jam big ships very easily, you could fit mods that boosted your strength so you KNEW you could stop a ship jamming you at the expense of your tank for instance. You COULD fill all your mid slots with jamming and garuntee that you could jam someone at the expense of shield tank / etc.
PLEASE put it back!!!!!!!!
Yep, we need EW / ECM as it was... back in those days you spotted a scorp, you knew he would prolly jam you up. These days even ships with a couple of mid slots can silence a BS worth maybe 1000 times more....
EW is for EW ships
X jamming strength jams X ship... no 'luck' about it.
Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage |
Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.06.11 22:09:00 -
[55]
ECCM works (caveat: on battleships and other high sensor strength ships). Anyone who says otherwise doesn't just hasn't had much experience in using it in actual combat.
It is better than fitting ECM when fighting in a medium sized gang, because 1)your BS is not likely to get first lock on a jamming cruiser before it tries to jam you and 2) If you look at the probabilities across the group, the enemy needs to dedicate many more mids to ECM than you do to ECCM.
3) In a medium sized gang 20 seconds is an eternity, and very few ships will get another chance to activate a 2nd or 3rd ecm round.
ECCM could use some boosts to make it useful on cruisers and frigates.. such as letting low slot backups give a sizable fixed sensor boost (8-10 pts) rather than a percentage boost.
Size base ECM is a horrible idea, because that will just push more people into BS. What is the point of support then besides tackling?
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.11 22:13:00 -
[56]
And there are plenty of threads in ships with suggestions, including my partial jam..
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Nanoe
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Posted - 2006.06.11 22:32:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Nanoe on 11/06/2006 22:34:57
Edited by: Nanoe on 11/06/2006 22:34:40
Originally by: Yee Do
Could the problems with ECM be eased if instead of jamming your ship, ECM jammed a percentage of your turrets? For instance, you are flying a cruiser with 4 guns and a NOS and get jammed by a frigate. Instead of losing your target and hence your guns, you keep your target, but some percentage of your turret slots go inactive as they try to regain lock?
Add some modules that could reduce the effects and you get your balancing game back. Forgive me if this idea isn't new, I just thought of it looking at the issue from the viewpoint of a relatively new player.
I like this idea, instead of losing your target lock why cant ECM reduce dmg or turret tracking? Something other then losing your lock will fix this issue...
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.11 22:40:00 -
[58]
That's kinda the idea behind partial jamming, you lose n% of your targets as there's a jamming roll against each rather than one for all. (And you don't lose lock).
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Vendictor
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Posted - 2006.06.11 22:59:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Cown
Edited by: Cown on 11/06/2006 13:26:15
Edited by: Cown on 11/06/2006 13:15:30
I have a RL friend, who is in FIX, he tested the ECM one day vs a Carrier. A Carrier has 76 points in radar strength. He fitted standard multispecs on a scorp and he could jam him constantly. A very few times the carrier had a chance to start locking him, but hey? guess what? after a few seconds he jammed him again and the carrier couldn't even lock him.
Going to have to call BS on that, I'm a Scorpion pilot, max ECM skills. My jam strength with multi spec is 7.2. Trying to jam that carrier. I would have less than a 9.5% chance to jam per jammer...you do the math. Sometime, I can lock down half a fleet, sometime...I fail on every jam, it's all luck. Even with max skills, caldari BS V, my chance to jam a BS is around 33% per ECM.
EW isn't overpowered...
Is it a Scorpion in a fleet fight bothering you? Call him primary, and watch him pop or warp away.
Blackbird got you down in small scale PvP? Laugh at his horrible DPS, and send your drones after them. They are made of paper and hardly ever tanked.
Don't get me started with a frig ECM boat...5 light drones will drop one before he can attempt another jam cycle.
To lazy to do any of this? Each ECCM gives you a strong bonus vs ECM. Fit an apoc with all ECM counters? That drops me to under 10% chance to jam per ECM...can I jam you? Sometimes, but considering jamming is my ships ONLY strong point, you might as well have removed me from the fight.
Everything in this game has a counter...use them
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.06.11 23:15:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Vendictor
Everything in this game has a counter...use them
ECM doesn't. Thats the point. Small scale battles are fights between each player's scorpion pilots to see who jams who. The guy that gets the jam wins. I do not wish to play a game in which this is the case, apparently you do.
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
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