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Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.06.12 18:16:00 - [61] T2 producers that care should just personalise the selling process a little, set up a website, put stuff for sale and just refuse to sell to people that buy more than what is "normal". That should nerf the resellers quite a bit. ________________________________________________ I survived Veto and all i got was this lame sig.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.12 18:17:00 - [62] Originally by: Tasuric Orka T2 producers that care should just personalise the selling process a little, set up a website, put stuff for sale and just refuse to sell to people that buy more than what is "normal". That should nerf the resellers quite a bit. Not really, you just buy with an alt. When the resellers start hiking up the prices, the HAC producers follow suite. Vicious circle :/
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.06.12 18:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Tasuric Orka T2 producers that care should just personalise the selling process a little, set up a website, put stuff for sale and just refuse to sell to people that buy more than what is "normal". That should nerf the resellers quite a bit. Not really, you just buy with an alt. When the resellers start hiking up the prices, the HAC producers follow suite. Vicious circle :/ There are only so many "real" alts a person can have, one would just have to glance at a characters history, lack of bio, etc, to determine someone is a fake. Of course it would mean its a "little" more work, but people would love you for selling them stuff at normal prices. ________________________________________________ I survived Veto and all i got was this lame sig.
Khatred	Posted - 2006.06.12 18:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Tasuric Orka T2 producers that care should just personalise the selling process a little, set up a website, put stuff for sale and just refuse to sell to people that buy more than what is "normal". That should nerf the resellers quite a bit. Tried that. Wouldn't ever again. Or maybe I would, if the forums wouldn't exist but frankly, after reading 90% of the topics on Eve forums, I am not interested in being nice to the other players. Most of them aren't worth in my book (as Eve players, I have no ideea how they are in RL) _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.12 18:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Khatred Originally by: Tasuric Orka T2 producers that care should just personalise the selling process a little, set up a website, put stuff for sale and just refuse to sell to people that buy more than what is "normal". That should nerf the resellers quite a bit. Tried that. Wouldn't ever again. Or maybe I would, if the forums wouldn't exist but frankly, after reading 90% of the topics on Eve forums, I am not interested in being nice to the other players. Most of them aren't worth in my book (as Eve players, I have no ideea how they are in RL) So because the players don't like the BPO system, you don't like the players? Or was it something more personal?
Alzion	Posted - 2006.06.12 18:32:00 - [66] The majority of the people in this thread fail at economics. If I was a HAC producer and I was able to sell 100% of my product in a reasonable time frame at X price, then thats exactly what I would do. Dropping my prices would do nothing but reduce my profit margine. If consumers feel that the benifits of flying a HAC are worth X price and there is insufficient supply then the price is going to stay the same or increase. There is nothing "evil" going on, and producers arn't out to get you, its simply the way the world works. Also, blaming resellers and telling people not to buy HACs at high prices accomplishes nothing. HAC prices are high because people feel that they're worth the price. --------------------------------------------- I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
Avalloc	Posted - 2006.06.12 19:02:00 - [67] Khatred as far as I've seen has been really reasonable about his HAC pricing. The only problem is if he throws up 30 of one HAC at 180m when they're selling for 200m+ normally on market the resellers will snatch them. Months ago, he put up 40 Cerb at 125m when you couldn't find them for under 150m anywhere on the market and 175m was the norm. Those ships were gone in less than 20 minutes. And they vanished in clumps of 5+ too. So, either Khatred puts them on sale at the market average or the reseller will. I would love to get a Cerb at a reasonable price, but we all dream. Right? Last month (I believe) Khated put 30 Cerb (by time I saw sale) up at around 180m and those suckers were gone fast too! Now the market has them for like 250m each, thanks to resellers. Argh! Seeding more BPO into lottery would be great. But I say that with selfish intent because my 500k+ rp have yet to yield me a ship BPO. ;)
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.12 19:04:00 - [68] To be honest, I don't think it's the producers who are getting shouted at, it's CCP for letting the situation get to this point. I wonder if this is how they envisioned the T2 ship market turning out :/
Alzion	Posted - 2006.06.12 19:12:00 - [69] Originally by: Avalloc Khatred as far as I've seen has been really reasonable about his HAC pricing. The only problem is if he throws up 30 of one HAC at 180m when they're selling for 200m+ normally on market the resellers will snatch them. Months ago, he put up 40 Cerb at 125m when you couldn't find them for under 150m anywhere on the market and 175m was the norm. Those ships were gone in less than 20 minutes. And they vanished in clumps of 5+ too. So, either Khatred puts them on sale at the market average or the reseller will. I would love to get a Cerb at a reasonable price, but we all dream. Right? Last month (I believe) Khated put 30 Cerb (by time I saw sale) up at around 180m and those suckers were gone fast too! Now the market has them for like 250m each, thanks to resellers. Argh! Seeding more BPO into lottery would be great. But I say that with selfish intent because my 500k+ rp have yet to yield me a ship BPO. ;) Khatred isn't being reasonable in his pricing, hes being stupid in his pricing. All that he accomplished by selling below market value was reducing his profit margin. --------------------------------------------- I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
Gort	Posted - 2006.06.12 19:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader T2 BPs in general should be purchasable. Lotto winners got their bags of money, now let's get some ships into the galaxy and bring prices down to reasonable levels. Sorry, I disagree. The ships are meant to be rare. Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."
FireflyX1	Posted - 2006.06.12 20:05:00 - [71] Edited by: FireflyX1 on 12/06/2006 20:05:30 Originally by: Avalloc Khatred as far as I've seen has been really reasonable about his HAC pricing. The only problem is if he throws up 30 of one HAC at 180m when they're selling for 200m+ normally on market the resellers will snatch them. Months ago, he put up 40 Cerb at 125m when you couldn't find them for under 150m anywhere on the market and 175m was the norm. Those ships were gone in less than 20 minutes. And they vanished in clumps of 5+ too. So, either Khatred puts them on sale at the market average or the reseller will. I would love to get a Cerb at a reasonable price, but we all dream. Right? Last month (I believe) Khated put 30 Cerb (by time I saw sale) up at around 180m and those suckers were gone fast too! Now the market has them for like 250m each, thanks to resellers. Argh! Seeding more BPO into lottery would be great. But I say that with selfish intent because my 500k+ rp have yet to yield me a ship BPO. ;) Yep that keeps happening with khated ships. Just look at price history in rens, and then look on escrow. you find there bought all out, and then resold at same station on escrow, for 5-25m more depending on HAC. 95m for eagle in rens market, yet large number of them where bought out and yet what appers on escrow 17 eagls all at the same station at 100m One person name keeps coming to mind when I see that.
DarkCEO	Posted - 2006.06.12 20:31:00 - [72] Hmmm do i have a stalker? and i did not buy 17 eagles i bought about 30ish i forget the exect number.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.06.12 20:32:00 - [73] "-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ebay sellers are removing a fair few HACs from the game too. theres at least 2 sellers who list quantities of 10 of each HAC every few days Im not saying its a massive problem just another link in the chain. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Removing them from the game? What the hell are they doing, boxing them up an posting them to people?" Well Don;t be so naive... I think ALOT of people overlook the fact that REAL WORLD economics can come into play here. I played another game lineage2 which had a similar problem, where the developers in all thier wisdom forgot the fact that some people will manipulate thier game to make REAL world money, and thus the entire player driven economy and difficulty of attaining certain key crafting materials end up being an extremely poor choice of game mechanics that are EASILY controlled and manipulated. Sure that alone might not be enough to control the ingame markets but when combined with the ease of macro scripts automatically making in game money for these players they end up with a bottomless wallet allowing them to do anything they want. Now the trick lies here.... these RL money makers MUST create a very strong demand for ingame currency IE inflat the market severely... this is the key because it is when that occurs that people turn to ebay to gasp buy in game funds to get what they want in game because they are not into some generic ingame farmihng for weeks and months just to play. So you see if i am trying to sell ingame money on ebay i am not going to sell much unless There is a severe over infaltion of costs of some important desirable items in game, because if players canreasonably make the money needed to get them said item thier self there is no need to buy from ebay. Now these guys who sell on ebay they use automated scripts to make limitless money. They really could careless if they pay absurd prices for anything since in game money is nothing to them. So they will drive the prices up because in the end all that matter is people BUYING in game money form them. So ya don;t be surprised if there is some group driving up prives on hac because they sell isk on ebay.... The funny thing is by buying up all the hacs they also end up controlling the supply... So what happens is joe blow buys mgame funds off ebay then uses thpose game funds to buy the hac from the ebayers who cvontrolls and drove up the prices, thus giving said in game money RIGHT back to the guy to sell again on ebay :) Serious problem, right now beleive it or not and something needs to be done VERY soon. Content is being limited from players using it and in EVE part of the hook or enjoyment of eve is being able to train up and then fly a new ship once that gets road blocked some people will not wait 4 months to fly a hac they will get bored and quit..... so we come full circle to these dreaded game farmers/ebayers actually ending up costing the developers money as they ruin their games. Look at USA lineage2 for proof in pudding of the dmg these guys do to the game, even though they do offer some patronage with accoutns they farm with.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.12 20:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Gort Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader T2 BPs in general should be purchasable. Lotto winners got their bags of money, now let's get some ships into the galaxy and bring prices down to reasonable levels. Sorry, I disagree. The ships are meant to be rare. Prove it.
Peoke	Posted - 2006.06.12 21:06:00 - [75] wow is it me or do many people not see that alot of the alliances in game have the hac bpos. and as such choose to rather sell them in house to thier members to better defend/attack with then sell em to the open market. i think these ships are selling for what people will pay and as such why would the prices drop when the people will pay or buy and resell at that price. if u want one grind the isk and buy one
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.12 21:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Peoke wow is it me or do many people not see that alot of the alliances in game have the hac bpos. and as such choose to rather sell them in house to thier members to better defend/attack with then sell em to the open market. i think these ships are selling for what people will pay and as such why would the prices drop when the people will pay or buy and resell at that price. if u want one grind the isk and buy one Everyone knows this. The issue is that there are too few BPOs, something Oveur himself has stated. What we're all ****ed off about is after all this time still nothing is done. How high do the prices need to rise before CCP act on their own concerns?
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2006.06.12 21:26:00 - [77] The market is PvP also not some damn cumbaya campfire gathering, if everyone is to have all the prints I want my own personal region and a dev assigned to me personally to pitch ideas to, it wouldn't hurt if he came over with some quafe once in a while either... Remind me about The Maze. I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message.
Lowfat Yogurt	Posted - 2006.06.12 22:42:00 - [78] You want a T2 BPO. Here is how you do it Setup a small quick lock frig to scan shuttles and haulers in empire. Put a passive targeter and a cargo scanner. Use this frig to scan and check for BPs and other goodies. With the passive scanner no one will be the wiser. Then you have a gang of friends with ships they can lose. Have them jump a target and take it goodies. If your lucky you will find a T2 BPO out there for easy pickings
Yves DeFleur	Posted - 2006.06.13 00:16:00 - [79] In RL with such a hot product there would be so many more producers and the price would then be kept at a reasonable level. In this situation, with the amount of t2 bpo's so limited, you get these crazy economics, ie - a monopoly. Even if I wanted to produce 1000 zealots and put them on the market at 50m each I cannot. No one other than a t2 hac bpo holder could possibly do this....and don't hold your breath on that. CCP's in-game economy is getting slowly ripped apart by the imbalances. I totally agree with the poster who was talking about Lineage 2 and the fact that if you wanted to compete at the high-end of the game you HAD to buy adena (Lineage2 isk) from online sellers. I know...I shortly quit Lineage2 after this fact came to light for me. I rerolled first and made another toon, but quickly found myself in the same position being that if I wanted the high-end game...I'd have to pay real money for it. Is the same thing gonna happen to EVE players?
Yves DeFleur	Posted - 2006.06.13 00:28:00 - [80] Originally by: GrimDoomsday ebay sellers are removing a fair few HACs from the game too. theres at least 2 sellers who list quantities of 10 of each HAC every few days Im not saying its a massive problem just another link in the chain. Yup....I just checked this....$44.99 for a shiny new Zealot from Ebay. CCP can't you shut those sellers down? Or is this another case similar to Lineage where the developers of the game actually got in on the in-game currency selling? Sorry to sound so harsh, but this situation is ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC.
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2006.06.13 01:47:00 - [81] Originally by: Yves DeFleur In RL with such a hot product there would be so many more producers and the price would then be kept at a reasonable level. In this situation, with the amount of t2 bpo's so limited, you get these crazy economics, ie - a monopoly. Even if I wanted to produce 1000 zealots and put them on the market at 50m each I cannot. No one other than a t2 hac bpo holder could possibly do this....and don't hold your breath on that. CCP's in-game economy is getting slowly ripped apart by the imbalances. I totally agree with the poster who was talking about Lineage 2 and the fact that if you wanted to compete at the high-end of the game you HAD to buy adena (Lineage2 isk) from online sellers. I know...I shortly quit Lineage2 after this fact came to light for me. I rerolled first and made another toon, but quickly found myself in the same position being that if I wanted the high-end game...I'd have to pay real money for it. Is the same thing gonna happen to EVE players? Yes because that's what actually happens to drugs like AIDS coping ones and Viagra to name another popular one, they get dirt cheap fast, oh wait, that was in an alternate reality.
Arcterran	Posted - 2006.06.13 02:12:00 - [82] Originally by: Yves DeFleur Edited by: Yves DeFleur on 12/06/2006 15:50:11 The only problem with t2 bpc's is you need a crapload of skills to actually be able to use the bpc. I think offers of t2 ships as agent rewards would be better. As a resident of 0.0 space, I don't think mission runners should be the only ones with access to BPC rewards. BPC drops in cans should be a viable alternative.
Yves DeFleur	Posted - 2006.06.13 02:15:00 - [83] Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: Yves DeFleur In RL with such a hot product there would be so many more producers and the price would then be kept at a reasonable level. In this situation, with the amount of t2 bpo's so limited, you get these crazy economics, ie - a monopoly. Even if I wanted to produce 1000 zealots and put them on the market at 50m each I cannot. No one other than a t2 hac bpo holder could possibly do this....and don't hold your breath on that. CCP's in-game economy is getting slowly ripped apart by the imbalances. I totally agree with the poster who was talking about Lineage 2 and the fact that if you wanted to compete at the high-end of the game you HAD to buy adena (Lineage2 isk) from online sellers. I know...I shortly quit Lineage2 after this fact came to light for me. I rerolled first and made another toon, but quickly found myself in the same position being that if I wanted the high-end game...I'd have to pay real money for it. Is the same thing gonna happen to EVE players? Yes because that's what actually happens to drugs like AIDS coping ones and Viagra to name another popular one, they get dirt cheap fast, oh wait, that was in an alternate reality.
Drizit	Posted - 2006.06.13 02:29:00 - [84] Originally by: Wendat Huron Yes because that's what actually happens to drugs like AIDS coping ones and Viagra to name another popular one, they get dirt cheap fast, oh wait, that was in an alternate reality. Even there you'll find other manufacturers who have analysed and reproduced the same under different names and sell them at half the price or less. Check the internet sometime, loads of ads for cheap viagra clones etc. In RL more and more manufacturers get into making them and the price drops radically. CD writers were well into the thousands when they first came out, 6 months later and they were down to just over a hundred, another 3 months later they could be bought for pocket cash. Last time I checked, this was not an alternate reality. Eve has different rules, the rich get richer and the rest can go to hell. Manufacturers have no means to get into manufacture of these items so the price stays extortionate. T2 BPOs promote pure greed and nothing else, a veritable paradise for a few but a lost cause for most. Those trying to compete and advance in the game cannot do so. Players cannot advance by losing 150m isk every time they PVP. That is over 6 days of mining for me so, for every HAC I lose in PVP, it will take 6 days to recoup my losses before I can go out again. If I go out in a T1 ship, I lose very little but my chances of winning a PVP encounter are zero so I gain absolutely no experience in PVP because it's all over before it even starts. Since I gain no experience, I have no chance of winning or even holding the ship together long enough to actually learn something, what value is there in me even setting foot in lowsec? The one single thing I have learned is: 0.4 and below is off limits to me. --
Dakath	Posted - 2006.06.13 03:04:00 - [85] Enough is enough. T2 BPOs to the market, NOW! It's the right thing to do.
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2006.06.13 03:38:00 - [86] Originally by: Yves DeFleur Edited by: Yves DeFleur on 13/06/2006 02:16:43 Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: Yves DeFleur In RL with such a hot product there would be so many more producers and the price would then be kept at a reasonable level. In this situation, with the amount of t2 bpo's so limited, you get these crazy economics, ie - a monopoly. Even if I wanted to produce 1000 zealots and put them on the market at 50m each I cannot. No one other than a t2 hac bpo holder could possibly do this....and don't hold your breath on that. CCP's in-game economy is getting slowly ripped apart by the imbalances. I totally agree with the poster who was talking about Lineage 2 and the fact that if you wanted to compete at the high-end of the game you HAD to buy adena (Lineage2 isk) from online sellers. I know...I shortly quit Lineage2 after this fact came to light for me. I rerolled first and made another toon, but quickly found myself in the same position being that if I wanted the high-end game...I'd have to pay real money for it. Is the same thing gonna happen to EVE players? Yes because that's what actually happens to drugs like AIDS coping ones and Viagra to name another popular one, they get dirt cheap fast, oh wait, that was in an alternate reality. Yes...an alternate reality that has something called a patent. Here's a clue for you, people getting a BPO are getting a patent to build. As for the one talking about knock-offs made in China, those are called BPCs. We have them both you just have to think and realize.
Yves DeFleur	Posted - 2006.06.13 04:26:00 - [87] Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: Yves DeFleur Edited by: Yves DeFleur on 13/06/2006 02:16:43 Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: Yves DeFleur In RL with such a hot product there would be so many more producers and the price would then be kept at a reasonable level. In this situation, with the amount of t2 bpo's so limited, you get these crazy economics, ie - a monopoly. Even if I wanted to produce 1000 zealots and put them on the market at 50m each I cannot. No one other than a t2 hac bpo holder could possibly do this....and don't hold your breath on that. CCP's in-game economy is getting slowly ripped apart by the imbalances. I totally agree with the poster who was talking about Lineage 2 and the fact that if you wanted to compete at the high-end of the game you HAD to buy adena (Lineage2 isk) from online sellers. I know...I shortly quit Lineage2 after this fact came to light for me. I rerolled first and made another toon, but quickly found myself in the same position being that if I wanted the high-end game...I'd have to pay real money for it. Is the same thing gonna happen to EVE players? Yes because that's what actually happens to drugs like AIDS coping ones and Viagra to name another popular one, they get dirt cheap fast, oh wait, that was in an alternate reality. Yes...an alternate reality that has something called a patent. Here's a clue for you, people getting a BPO are getting a patent to build. As for the one talking about knock-offs made in China, those are called BPCs. We have them both you just have to think and realize. Oh yes...those Zealot BPC's are flooding the market! I think not. The supply is far too low. CCP needs to increase the supply.
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2006.06.13 04:34:00 - [88] You don't see every country building nukes, stealth bombers and the like now either do you, enough with the whining.
Yves DeFleur	Posted - 2006.06.13 04:58:00 - [89] Edited by: Yves DeFleur on 13/06/2006 05:04:02 Just stating the fact that supply is too low and CCP needs to increase it or it'll be bad for the game. This is still only a game...for fun and all that. It's not fun trying to get a HAC for a reasonable price. It's fun to fly a HAC....making it a fun game! BTW, I myself am a T2 producer. If you need some "reasonably" priced Null M ammo in "adequate" suppply please contact me in-game :)
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2006.06.13 05:15:00 - [90] Some peoples joy in this game is keeping you deprived, be it of HACs, rare ore or access to areas of space, get used to it.

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