Learning implants, attribute remapping, clone costs could all do with being looked at. When risk/reward stops people from casually engaging with the game then we have a problem.

I dont know why they couldnt just go with +5 stats on all high grade pirate implants. That way, if you wanted full training capability with the added set bonuses, you could do so.

Now, as it stands, the +5 implants still have an edge over hg pirates. Things like learning skills or learning implants bring nothing to the game. They are only a hindrance.

And as Solhild pointed out remaps and clones in general should be looked at as well.

Difference between +4 and +5 imps is totally neglectable. If someone's perfectionism hold him from PvP activities, why we should change the game?

My +5 set is by far the cheapest set I have. I have PvP'd in it and they have never stopped me undocking.

We now have access to a far larger pool of clones. You don't even need to put in 5, just the two that you are mapped for, if training speed is that important to you.

As Baltic said, there will always be an excuse for not PvPing. But the fact of the matter is, the one stopping you is you.

the difference is, those other implants give you bonuses to things that aren't SP (i assume we're talking about things like slaves, snakes, crystals etc). I'd risk a 2bn isk clone, if it gave me an edge in combat, but you're damn sure i wouldn't if it didn't. that's the situation learning implants are in.

I believe that basic learning implants should be made much more expensive, and that a cheaper version of illegal training implants should be available from pirate LP stores--implants that can't be flown through highsec without the risk of having CONCORD remove them.

Implants stopping someone from undocking is a bad reason to not fly in my opinion. They would find another reason if implants were removed (probably a new nerf ganking thread). +5's cut the learning time on a level 5 skill (from start to finish) by about 5 days or so. Can people not wait that long whilst running their current business/missions? I like the system and believe it is fine as it is. Siply have a little more patience in your +3/+4's or buy the +5's and accept the risk...

Note: I am not a rich player, I'm happy with the +3's I have, and though I could afford +4's I usually find something better in S&I to invest my isk in.

I think something as basic as learning implants should be available to all in all areas if they are willing to risk them

...my stuff...followed by your stuff...

Well I just play to enjoy the game. If I cannot be bothered to change clones, I undock in my +5 set.

But I do think it's an excuse not to PvP. We now have reduced jump times and far more clones to choose from. If SP attainment rates are so important to these people, then why not have a mix of implants? 2 +5s and then others to boost combat?

I know there may be times when you cannot jump, but that's no fault of learning implants and still doesn't stop you PvPing.

The fact he asks for those 5 points to be added, tells me he's more concerned with SP than playing the game.
Therefore, he should ask for attributes to be removed completely and we should all train at the same speed. Sounds like a dream scenario. (Not really, it sounds horribly bland.)

sure, let's keep a system that actively discourages people from generating content.
i don't really care, to be honest.

when it comes to new players learning implants look like this; "get sp slowly" or "don't pvp". neither of those are interesting choices to new players, or older players.

I've said many times that if my pod/implants etc didn't cost many times more than what cheap frigates cost, i'd gladly go and lose cheap frigates just for the fun of it. however losing a pod worth 10 or 20 times your ship's value isn't fun or interesting, or in any way encouraging me to go and generate content.
an hour of earning isk for a handful of frigs that'll give me hours of fun is a good trade.
hours of earning isk to replace 1 pod just gives me hours of tedious grinding and isn't a good trade.

The only person that stops someone generatong content is the player themself, either by choosing not to or by making choices that then discourage them from doing so.

I like the learning implants, like some said risk/reward,
you still can pvp with plus 5 in, just always warp your pod out . I haven't been podded for a long time.

yes, it's a player choice.

however, is the fact that players are forced to pick between character advancement and content creation a good choice to put in front of players?

I don't think it is. there's no trade off here, you're just picking a different way to get penalized. that's not an interesting or meaningful choice.

It is a choice between *slightly slower* SP gain and doing something else more fun. And it is only that choice if the player makes it that choice. Putting +5's on a clone doesn't trigger some code limitation that stops said clone from undocking as far as I know.

It is about compromise as everything is in Eve. A player will always need to compromise something somewhere

slightly slower? i'm looking at a x1 skill, rank V. the difference between them based on my remap is over a day's training. that's on a x1 skill.
it's not *slightly slower*, it's substantial. when you're looking at skills that aren't x1, the gap is wider.

the thing is, pvp in eve isn't the only thing that's fun. having more sp allows you to do more things in eve; doing a myriad of things rather than 1 thing is also why this isn't an interesting or meaningful choice. you just end up with people who say "i love that 1 thing, bugger the rest" or people who say "i'm not willing to do that 1 thing, it's not worth the detriment to everything else" it creates a large divide that i don't think benefits the game in any way. unless you have an army of alts, but requiring an army of alts is hardly a drawing point for new players. "come and enjoy eve, but only if you make 5 accounts"

there's no compromise here. compromise is what hardwirings are. learning implants just impose an awkward penalty.
I just think that the pros and cons of any choice in eve should be contained to the activity you're considering. eg remaps, train your gunnery skills faster, at the expense of speed for core skills. that's interesting and meaningful for example. however something like "training skills faster means your ship flies slower" isn't meaningful or make very much sense....

anyway i'm starting to ramble and i have to do things not in front of the computer.

They will find another reason to not PvP.

People who PVP more often than you High sec hider use +3s instead, if at all. They are cheap and still offer good training bonuses and don't deter people from PVPing, who actually want to PVP. For all the others we have Jump clones, which you can change every 20 hours (the respective skill at IV). That allows you to PVP in a adequate PVP clone, then jump to your better learning clone, and come back next evening for another 4 hours of PVP at the exact same time. Rinse and repeat. Henceforth, I don't see any problems with learning implants.

-1

sure, let's keep a system that actively discourages people from generating content.
i don't really care, to be honest.

when it comes to new players learning implants look like this; "get sp slowly" or "don't pvp". neither of those are interesting choices to new players, or older players.

The player is given a few choices:

1. Fly PvP with +5 implants. In null, with the effect of bubbles, this means many times if you lose your ship you are also going to lose your pod. If you are flying a subcapital ship (which most players do) this is really not worth it. (i.e. if you lose an interceptor worth 55 mil you are also likely to lose 200 mil or more worth of implants which don't help you in combat). This is a very odd tradeoff that doesn't incentivize PvP (or any sort of in-game activity really).

2. Choose to lose 1 hour and 20 minutes of character advancement to play the game and undock (assuming going from +5's down to +3's [it's worse if they don't use implants]). Why punish players' character advancement for actually engaging in the game?

I understand that risk vs. reward is an important aspect of the game (as is choice). However, I don't feel that this choice set really enhances the game in any meaningful way.

I remember learning skills. They forced players to make a choice as well. However, that choice was lame and didn't add anything. I feel that learning implants are in the same bucket.

because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve.
the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP because skills already take long enough to train without foregoing implants in the same way everyone spent ages training learning skills before they could train anything so that they were able to play the game.

slightly slower? i'm looking at a x1 skill, rank V. the difference between them based on my remap is over a day's training. that's on a x1 skill.

because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve.
the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP

This is mindset similar to "If I haven't perfected this ship I won't undock it and will whine on forums instead about how harsh Eve to newcomers and how long you have to wait to pilot the ship you want".

I say it again: such perfectionism won't do you any good, get rid of it. As someone above already said, difference between +4 and +5 for some V lv skill barely equals to 5 days. FIVE. DAYS. In Eve it's simply nothing. You train some skill 90-180 days, and still can't wait additional 5? I can't see a problem here. And there is a clonjump here, so in fact you won't lose even those 5 days as you will be out of your learning clone for not so long.

Other people have said this, but the implants are not the problem here.

An attitude adjustment is required.

Your statement is false. I log in, clone jump (to a +4 clone as opposed to the +5) THEN undock.

Surely this just shows that the jump clone functionality works as designed? You made a choice based upon risk to jump into a lower values clone and have lower benefits from it, then jump back to the more expensive clone when that risk has passed? In all cases the functionality is working correctly here...

Question:

1. How does it improve your gaming experience to have folks remain docked in order to protect their +5 learning implants?

No skill that little bit earlier is worth hamstringing your gameplay for...

Learning implants, attribute remapping, clone costs could all do with being looked at. When risk/reward stops people from casually engaging with the game then we have a problem.

that would be a valid point; if pvp were the only activity in eve.
at the end of the day, character progression is important and people want to advance their characters. if you can do that best by going "i'll ignore 1 activity in eve, because i can still do the myriad of others" it's hardly surprising that people would rather have the SP than pvp.

people whine about the risk averse, and people who don't pvp being people "they don't want in eve" yet when ideas like this come up to encourage people to join in on the fun... people whine and shoot it down, i don't really get that.

Faster learning or less ISKat risk, it really is that simple.

...stuff...

learning implants, on the other hand... you're either putting more isk at risk for no reward in your situation...more stuff....

1. How does it improve your gaming experience to have folks remain docked in order to protect their +5 learning implants?

that would be a valid point; if pvp were the only activity in eve.

Uh... it kinda is.

yeah it kinda is if we exclude everything that isn't. just like berlin is kinda the only city in europe once we exclude all the ones that aren't berlin.

As literally every aspect of EVE requires a sort of zero-sum interaction with another player

Not really the same argument at all. As literally every aspect of EVE requires a sort of zero-sum interaction with another player unless you take vast and completely masochistic efforts to avoid interacting with other players.

Sure, some people don't quite grasp this concept, so its fine if its a bit over your head.

well yes it is the same argument.

eve is only about pvp when you remove all of the non pvp activities.

well yes it is the same argument.

eve is only about pvp when you remove all of the non pvp activities.

The problem is that almost any of these PvE activities are unbearably boring and plain. Even high end ones, like Incursions and sleepers' complexes require only rudimentary coordination and easly doable by a fleet of ppl never played toghether before (and even by "fleets" of multiboxers with isBoxer). It's only PvP element that somehow spice it from time to time. So technically he is right - there isn't too much to do in Eve beyond PvP.

I strongly believe that Eve needs to improve the PvE aspects to bring more players in because it's the 20% of new players that stay and move on from PvE that add the 'spice' to losec, WH's and null. Increase the numbers joining by having more immersive PvE and you increase the number in PvP as a natural consequence.

...there is no guarantee that some PvP will be delivered to the place when you are doing your PvE and you are doomed to be bored to death while doing it....

Possibly removing them completely and replacing the lost SP with a small reward of SP from destroying ships in pvp would be a strong incentive to get people to undock if they want to maximize their SP/hour. This may penalize the industrial pilot, so other mechanisms to gain SP in a similar manner may need to be thought through. (INB4 nerd rage, this is just a quick suggestion, I don't necessarily believe it would work).

My point was that those who like PvE aren't bored by it, they enjoy the activity. If they were bored by it they would move on to PvP which is easily found if you go looking for it (though not necessarily in single combat of course!).

You get the super rich (Mags) going "well I can afford to loose +5's so they don't matter'
You get the 'Lolz, u r carebear and will never PvP anyway' crowd.
And you get the 'meaningful choice' crowd.

It's even more plain, thoughtless and casual than some more traditional casual games out there, like Zooma You just read some guide in the net and procceed to lock crosses in the ordred it recommend, mission after mission, day after day. Even bots probably can't see it as fun No challenge, no variety, no place to apply some thought. I know ppl who do it in half-AFK state with drone vessel, while watching TV. If it's a definition of fun gameplay for you, than probably game industry developed too much for me to understand.

I guess if you weren't so fixated on SP/hour, you'd not have this mess in the first place.

+1 remove learning attribute enhancements via implants and / or convert to boosters (to keep ISK sink)

IMO the learning implants 1) hinder younger capsuleers to take risks they otherwise would and 2) create frustration in case of loss, and hence contribute to the bad new player retention. The only way to find out probably is to make the change.

It can easily be argued that the choice of implants, and the tradeoff thereof, is intended.

And your argument of "we can only find out by making the change" is beyond asinine. I can make precisely the same argument about removing CONCORD, or making NPC corps subject to wardecs.

BTW, in contrast to your examples for change requests, the removal of learning implants would not harm any part of New Eden's population.

Yeah, it's easy to argue with CCP's intention, but it's also weak as we don't know for sure. For me it's a mistake to force people to choose between getting faster into the game and practicing PvP at low cost. But I could be wrong and changing this would not make any difference in larger scale, I can't proof it.

BTW, in contrast to your examples for change requests, the removal of learning implants would not harm any part of New Eden's population.

You are forgetting that PvP combat is not the only element in eve,

"but it's a pvp game!"

Well, except, you know, the people who sell those.

It's not like they come from nowhere and cost nothing, you realize. Implants are a fairly important part of the LP economy.

Accepted. They can be replaced by learning boosters with limited duration (e.g. weeks)

I can't possibly grasp how Eve's PvE in its current state can be not boring to someone. It's even more plain, thoughtless and casual than some more traditional casual games out there, like Zooma You just read some guide in the net and procceed to lock crosses in the ordred it recommend, mission after mission, day after day. Even bots probably can't see it as fun No challenge, no variety, no place to apply some thought. I know ppl who do it in half-AFK state with drone vessel, while watching TV. If it's a definition of fun gameplay for you, than probably game industry developed too much for me to understand.

I believe that basic learning implants should be made much more expensive, and that a cheaper version of illegal training implants should be available from pirate LP stores--implants that can't be flown through highsec without the risk of having CONCORD remove them.

Which hurts new players pretty badly.

This depends on the cost. The boosters have to be much cheaper than the implants. Compare it with the direction software business is heading for, it's the move from a classic licensing model to subscription fees.

Oh, and I just realized you ran into Malcanis' law on this one.

If we actually did get rid of learning implants, then there is absolutely no reason to not use Snakes and Slaves and other powerful implants at all times, if you can afford it. Because now you wouldn't even have to make the choice between training implants and combat implants.

This even further exacerbates the difference between an older, more wealthy player and a newbie with a thin wallet.

We just got the new super cheap low level implants

And given how sans omega the sets top off at a bil
It really isn't bad for the "newbs"
Particularly as it makes an awesome ISK gate and accomplishment as they build out the set and get stronger
That is it gives them something to look forward to rather than saying here is a bigger ship, with different weapons
Have fun just sliding around on this circle

No, it doesn't depend on the cost. It's an isk tax on playing the game at the same level as a veteran. Especially depending on new player income, it is a crippling blow to newbies being able to narrow the gap compared to veteran players.

Oh, and I just realized you ran into Malcanis' law on this one.

If we actually did get rid of learning implants, then there is absolutely no reason to not use Snakes and Slaves and other powerful implants at all times, if you can afford it. Because now you wouldn't even have to make the choice between training implants and combat implants.

No, it doesn't depend on the cost. It's an isk tax on playing the game at the same level as a veteran. Especially depending on new player income, it is a crippling blow to newbies being able to narrow the gap compared to veteran players.

And if you make them negligible cost to counter that, you have destroyed an entire market.

There is no way that this would work out well, at all. Every potential outcome is much worse than the current situation. And the only "problem" about how it works right now is that some people are risk averse chickens who don't want to risk a feeling of loss.

Oh, and I just realized you ran into Malcanis' law on this one.

If we actually did get rid of learning implants, then there is absolutely no reason to not use Snakes and Slaves and other powerful implants at all times, if you can afford it. Because now you wouldn't even have to make the choice between training implants and combat implants.

This even further exacerbates the difference between an older, more wealthy player and a newbie with a thin wallet.

Well I just play to enjoy the game. If I cannot be bothered to change clones, I undock in my +5 set.

But I do think it's an excuse not to PvP. We now have reduced jump times and far more clones to choose from. If SP attainment rates are so important to these people, then why not have a mix of implants? 2 +5s and then others to boost combat?

I know there may be times when you cannot jump, but that's no fault of learning implants and still doesn't stop you PvPing.

The fact he asks for those 5 points to be added, tells me he's more concerned with SP than playing the game.
Therefore, he should ask for attributes to be removed completely and we should all train at the same speed. Sounds like a dream scenario. (Not really, it sounds horribly bland.)

Snip ... A lot of good argumentation
.

wasn't the complaint that 200 mil in +5's to expensive that it make people not want to pvp. But a bil for a set is fine to try and risk?

You are forgetting that PvP combat is not the only element in eve

You, like most people who try to argue EVE is not a pvp centric experience, are forgetting (or willfully ignoring) that apart from a very narrow, very unrewarding, very limited, and practically impossible to navigate corridor, eve is entirely PVP.

What if we made implants removable and reusable? Specifically, players could remove/replace implants in station just as easily as removing and replacing modules on a ship without destroying the implants in the process.

I think this would be a nice compromise between the two opposing sides of this debate. Risk vs. Reward and the importance of choice would be preserved, but players would not be heavily disincentivized by the Jump Clone timer.

Thoughts?

Which kinda suggests the problems are mostly in the OP's head.

You, like most people who try to argue EVE is not a pvp centric experience, are forgetting (or willfully ignoring) that apart from a very narrow, very unrewarding, very limited, and practically impossible to navigate corridor, eve is entirely PVP. As the only way to pve exclusively in EVE is to never interact with the market apart from NPC buy and sell orders. The only reason NPC buy and sell orders exist is to regulate the market. So traveling down the "exclusive pve" corridor is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The lower level implants are actually the real problem, a new player can't afford to not use +4s when they have no skills, but at the same time they can't afford to lose them, which means they can't go PvP in a cheap frigate or cruiser in lowsec.

eve is entirely PVP.

I've never yet used above +3's and have had no problem training up a shitload of skills. Implants are fine it is peoples perception that they need loads of SP and they need them NOW that is skewed...

Accepted. They can be replaced by learning boosters with limited duration (e.g. weeks)

The "functionality" of jump cloning to a less expensive clone works just fine (which is not the purpose of this post to debate). However, this "functionality" doesn't add any enjoyment to the game.

Question:

1. How does it improve your gaming experience to have folks remain docked in order to protect their +5 learning implants?

The last pod I lost 6 months ago had +4s and I never bothered putting them back, just plugged in some random 2s and 3s that were sitting around.

Seriously, does it really matter if you take 2 or 3 weeks longer over a year to train? If you are that obsessed with your SP just buy a trained character at the bazaar.

The SP minigame is stupid and should not be encouraged.

When you already have a bunch of SP? No, it doesn't. When you're just starting, have no SP, and can't do **** in this game other than sacrificial tackle, it's a big deal. Do you have any idea how useless T1 lasers and ACs are? A little offtopic, but I'm also thinking the reason Gallente is the most popular PvP race by far is because their weapon systems are the only ones that are even remotely functional at T1, which means everyone starts out with them.

The +3 and +4 stat implants are IMHO the #1 problem that railroads new players into going PvE-only and then predictably quitting because the PvE is so boring. I am very much of the opinion that everyone should just get +4 to all stats, and that stats on genolutions/pirate implants should be removed entirely. The current +5s can then be left in the game as +1s.

Jump clones only let you PvP once every 24 hours and you also have to grind up the 8.0 standing to set them up at all, not a trivial task for a new player.

Like a lot of folks, I have a dedicated clone with +5 learning implants for every attribute. This clone is parked in a secure high-sec station and never undocks.

I consider myself a fairly casual player (I play only once or twice a week). When I do play, I jump to a clone with two +4 implants (int/mem currently as that is in accordance with my year long skill plan). During these periods, I spend the overwhelming majority of my time PvP'ing, and as such never risk the +5 implant clone by undocking. Once my time is up, I jump back to my +5 clone in a safe and secure station and log off.

This situation works alright for someone like me: I can afford to have an all +5 implant clone and I am a fairly casual player.

However, I really don't think it adds much to the game. It is detrimental to people who just generally want to actually play the game more often, as opposed to spending most of the time sitting in station soaking up the 45 Skill Points/minute.

As such, I am fundamentally against learning implants because they disincentivize players from undocking and engaging with other players. This is not good for the game.

Also: I understand the importance of risk vs. reward, and I feel strongly that other forms of implants should continue to exist (for combat boosts, mining boosts, etc.). The difference is those implants are useful when you actually undock and play. Learning implants are just as effective docked as they are undocked. As such, if they are expensive enough (in the case of +5s) they motivate people to remain docked and discontinue gameplay.

My proposed solution: Get rid of all learning implants and increase the base attribute points for all players from 17 to 22 (+5 across the board). We can still have neural remapping, because it rewards a well thought out plan. Removing the implants will encourage gameplay, generate more content, and will enrich the gaming experience.

Unless you have fallen for the "I want a battleship so I can play for free running level IV missions" trap there is actually quite a lot you can do with low XP including Assault Frigates, Interceptors even Covops and in particular bombers. I spend more time runnning around lowsec in alts with 6 or 8 weeks training then I do in my main.

As for jump clones, you can get them anytime you like by taking advantage of free jump clone services like Estel Arador. When I first started I got my first jump clone after only 3 weeks of play.

The +3 and +4 stat implants are IMHO the #1 problem that railroads new players into going PvE-only and then predictably quitting because the PvE is so boring. I am very much of the opinion that everyone should just get +4 to all stats, and that stats on genolutions/pirate implants should be removed entirely. The current +5s can then be left in the game as +1s.

When you already have a bunch of SP? No, it doesn't. When you're just starting, have no SP, and can't do **** in this game other than sacrificial tackle, it's a big deal. Do you have any idea how useless T1 lasers and ACs are? A little offtopic, but I'm also thinking the reason Gallente is the most popular PvP race by far is because their weapon systems are the only ones that are even remotely functional at T1, which means everyone starts out with them.

The +3 and +4 stat implants are IMHO the #1 problem that railroads new players into going PvE-only and then predictably quitting because the PvE is so boring. I am very much of the opinion that everyone should just get +4 to all stats, and that stats on genolutions/pirate implants should be removed entirely. The current +5s can then be left in the game as +1s.

Jump clones only let you PvP once every 24 hours and you also have to grind up the 8.0 standing to set them up at all, not a trivial task for a new player.

Accepted. They can be replaced by learning boosters with limited duration (e.g. weeks)

Most people who start this game off don't even know what the **** a jump clone is, nor are most aware that implants exist. Most don't even understand how the initial attributes we select affect training time among many many many other things.

If they do now, either:

1. A friend invited them to play
or
2, They're an alt.

Lets face it, there are guys who play this game that have 20 or more alts. I mean, the dedication some people show to alt farming is just amazing.........

How do you make a lot of isk without spending a lot of time devoting your gameplay to that?

Buy PLEX from CCP and sell it on the in-game market. No gameplay required.

The only people this benefits would be those who have already invested the x years of sp and dont care anymore.

IPeople who hide in the station snuggling their +5's weren't going to leave it regardless of their implants because if they didn't have the expensive implants they weren't willing to risk they'd have an expensive ship they weren't willing to risk, or faction/deadspace modules they weren't willing to risk, etc....

Jump clones were on my radar within my first week. It's a pretty obvious feature in Eve that opens a lot of doors for new players. If you don't learn about jump clones within your first couple months I would have to question whether you're actively playing or napping at the keyboard in an asteroid field.

Some people are making up numbers carelessly.
My word goes to ones who say "+5 is needless, +3 is adequate"
Did you guys ever put some effort to look at how much time actually it penaltize you when you downgrade from +5 to +3's?
Difference between +5's and +3's is that it trains half a month less per 6 month, and a whole month less in 1 year for optimized plans.
For players like me around ~70 mil. SP and for my optimized skill queue, it is 94 skills trained (29 unique skills to level 4). Triple or even quadrupple that number for a new player.
Pointless argument... I am positive with OP. These implants should be internally added to everyone and all of them should be totally removed from the game.

Edit: Why should numbers be added instead of removed? Because you would penaltize people who trained without them, while there were people training with them. This is only valid if implants were removed and numbers weren't added internally.

Yes, I have put time into looking at it and yes there is a difference between using +5's and +3's. There is also a difference between choice and risk. That is the whole point, tangible benefits for the risks and investments you take and make. So tell me why a pilot who is willing to risk higher implants during flight shouldn't gain the benefit of better training time? Also explain why that month less training (assuming you got the numbers right) is such a big deal? It really isn't the amount of SP you have it is how you use those SP.

SP is the name of the advancement for this game. Without it, everything else is pointless. So every single bit of less training time is a big deal. You start to underestimate the power of training time, you start to widen the gap. Time is money my friend. If you don't care about that deal, it is your choice to do so.

My main idea and argument is that implants that doesn't actively contribute to fights and modifies the most powerful thing in this game are pointless. Once in the past, the very same argument was brought up once more and the final result was the removal of some learning skills from the game. Training time should be the same for all, risk vs reward part should be shifted from SP speed to some useful combat attribute.

Not everyone of course, but mostly new pvp'ers or ones shifting from pve to pvp have fear of loosing some of their SP speed and yes, even this is one of the many sources of discouragement, nonethless it is better starting cutting those discouragement parts one by one.

"Choice and risk" part. This is where these implants are creating an adverse effect actually.
- OP says he stays in station. Even he logs off, he uses +5's passively without any risk involved. No risk, +5 training.
- A player in null, actively participating in warfare is the most opposite side of the story. He won't purhcase +5's because he is being podded every other day. He is playing with much greater risk, so he gets +0 ones.

See the pattern? These implants are simply breaking risk vs reward rule. They're working reverse.

Think reverse, if everyone would be able to train 2700 sp/hr equally, what would that do bad to Eve? What is so bad about this? I see more advantages than adverse effects, if any.

Also I come back to the usual thing with implants. Learn to get your pod out, it is a key skill if you expect PvP and will cut drastically the number of times you will lose implants.

Also I come back to the usual thing with implants. Learn to get your pod out, it is a key skill if you expect PvP and will cut drastically the number of times you will lose implants.

You are not doing PvP in Nullsec, right?

... Learn to get your pod out, it is a key skill if you expect PvP and will cut drastically the number of times you will lose implants. If a pilot is serious about PvP combat over anything else then they will be risking far more expensive implants on a daily basis so you could see the risk of losing attribute implants as 'training wheels' towards the risks you'll be taking in future.

Neither are you, NPC alt.

But as far as "bubbles!", if you're going to take a fight in null, then nothing stops you from jumping into a clean clone. It's routine to do so, in fact.

Unfortunately as I'm my own "alt" (aka SOLO, single account player *sigh*!) I lost my pod iirc 3 times to bubbles in NullSec and in WHs. Actually I was able to escape luckily in the gap between two bubbles once. But the required clone jumps are exactly the point, if I would like to do NullSec stuff every day I'm penalized with much slower skill progression.

Unfortunately as I'm my own "alt" (aka SOLO, single account player *sigh*!) I lost my pod iirc 3 times to bubbles in NullSec and in WHs. Actually I was able to escape luckily in the gap between two bubbles once. But the required clone jumps are exactly the point, if I would like to do NullSec stuff every day I'm penalized with much slower skill progression.

And Genolutions cost pocket change, by the way.

You are not doing PvP in Nullsec, right?

And you aren't using a jump clone whilst PvPing in Null? Who's fault is losing implants then?

Please read my and others' comments above.

Stop exaggerating.

The difference between +4s and +5s, or even +3s and +5s, is miniscule unless you have a year long or more training plan. And even then the difference is pretty well laughable. So it's not "much slower" anything.

And Genolutions cost pocket change, by the way.

That guy said he is 9 months old. If you read my post and considering he should be less than 16-18 mil SP (considering he is on +3s), he can complete at least 180 skills with a well designed plan, bringing more than 48 unique skills to level 4 in time you said "laughable".

Two cases here, either you don't have math, or you do have it, but you just have shitload of skills trained already and 40 unique to lvl4 means nothing to you...

On the other hand, the argument of jumping to a clean clone doesn't change anything here. It doesn't invalidate the fact that fighting in null increases risk of being podded, whether you are using jump clone or not, you expose yourself to very same reversed risk/reward situation with a logged-off guy in the high-sec training with +5. You're on the risky side, yet you've to loose training time because of risk? Not very good eh?

Yeah, and the guy sitting in high sec with +5's is just having LOADS of fun isn't he?

I wonder if he'll be the first one to roll the ship spin counter back over to 0....

Isk, SP, time, plex, we all invest something into the game to get what we want out of it.

That guy having less fun still doesn't change the fact that he has more reward sitting in high-sec than fighting in null.

How is SP a reward if you hardly ever use it? Please explain.

Because numbers.

I haz bigger numbers, thus I haz bigger E-peen.

What hurts me is you're pulling choices from the game for no discernible reason other than you feel someone has an advantage over someone else because they chose to waste their time by not playing the game. You're proposing a blanket change that affects all players to fix something that is only a theoretical problem for some of them.

If you're avoiding fights because you're currently stuck in a +5 when you prefer to PvP in a clean clone, that's the price you chose to pay for the extra SP.

If you're losing SP because you're in a clean clone so that you can have fun shooting faces, that's the price you chose to pay for the extra fun.
...
Or.... Just grab some cheapo +3's and get the best of both worlds. Better yet, check the market. I've noticed that a lot of the mid-grade pirate implants that give +3 to attributes along with combat bonuses can be as little as half as much as the standard +3's.

Full set of mid-grade talismans, plus the Omega, for 35-40 mil to fly my neut boat with and +3 to all attributes? Yes please.

How is SP a reward if you hardly ever use it? Please explain.

I can tell you one more thing. You said the problem is theoretical, but the problem is very practical. I've been missioning for 5 years. I'd fun. Let's say you had fun in null for same 5 years.
Now I'm switching to null. We both had fun for 5 years. Same game, same story, different aspects, now I'm coming to same place as you, with 5 months ahead. The theoretical thing here is that if we continue to play this game, it is *nearly* impossible for you to close that gap in current mechanic. GG to my grandchildren see yours catching his sp.

Let's say I use it in high-sec missioning?

I'll be nice and try to explain.

If you have 'missioned' for 5 years, then go to null to PVP with some dudes that have PVPed for 5 years, they will

repeatedly kick your behind over and over and over again.

Your choice to PVE 'safely' put you at a severe disadvantage to the other guys, even if you have 5% more (useless) SP.

Yes! And as OP stated, this brings a discouragement for pve players not to do pvp.
As baltec said, they would also supply other reasons not to pvp,
Yet the problem persists, guy is havign less risk but more reward, because???

:)

Ah, then it's all about a little cosmetic mod? Like your character sheet showing Gallente Battleship V even if you don't actually have it?

Same as having it and never undocking a Domi...

And you're making a choice for players as they've to fight in null in order to have fun? I've been doing missiong and other stuff with +5s, I had fun for around 5 years, now I'm going into null with 5 months ahead...
No mistakes, I'm defending the guy in the null here. He played with greater risk but I've more SP now. This is simply incorrect.




You reverted to fun factor/reward here.

Mate the broken mechanic is risk/reward. If I can bring less risk and get more reward, it should be corrected.
I can tell you one more thing. You said the problem is theoretical, but the problem is very practical. I've been missioning for 5 years. I'd fun. Let's say you had fun in null for same 5 years.
Now I'm switching to null. We both had fun for 5 years. Same game, same story, different aspects, now I'm coming to same place as you, with at least 5 months ahead. The theoretical thing here is that if we continue to play this game, it is *nearly* impossible for you to close that gap in current mechanic. GG to my grandchildren see yours catching his sp.

I did read your posts and you are not penalized on training rate compared to others even if you choose to PvP every day. You have a choice as to what level of risk and cost of any implant (training or otherwise) that you are willing to fly with. You train at the exact same rate as anyone else before implants and can choose which if any implants you want to fly with. There is a choice to be made and a risk/reward balance to make in your own mind.

I stand by the point that the learning implants really don't speed up training by such a degree that they need to be removed.

You guess it, I don't agree on this. +4 or +5 sets bring a significant boost in my opinion which I don't want to miss, and +3 implant sets are to expensive to loose every other day. Maybe in 2-3 years this is not that relevant anymore (but then there are the astronomical clone replacement costs ...).

I'm sure most of the more advanced EvE players are combining both by jumping back and forth between their learning/missioning and PvP clones. So we have an established mechanic (choice) nobody actually takes but instead evades if possible. The consequence of this behavior in my opinion is less PvP content and an obstacle (whether perceived or real does not matter) for new players experiencing all parts of EvE. Thus I vote for a change.

Would you accept just removing +4 and +5 'pure learning' implants, without any attribute increase?

I'll be nice and try to explain.

If you have 'missioned' for 5 years, then go to null to PVP with some dudes that have PVPed for 5 years, they will

repeatedly kick your behind over and over and over again.

Your choice to PVE 'safely' put you at a severe disadvantage to the other guys, even if you have 5% more (useless) SP.

This is just tossing something out there, as I'm neither here nor there regarding learning implants, but I think the point he's trying to make is that, while yes, the 5-year PvE'er will get trounced quite handily by the 5-year PvP'er, the PvE'er can improve and grow their RL skills until the two are essentially equal (while the PvP'er will always be ahead, the curve for PvP tapers off as time goes on, making the difference fairly negligible after a length of time). Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the PvP'er in terms of SP.

Would you accept just removing +4 and +5 'pure learning' implants, without any attribute increase?

[quote=Corraidhin Farsaidh][quote=Shivanthar]


"Choice and risk" part. This is where these implants are creating an adverse effect actually.
- OP says he stays in station. Even he logs off, he uses +5's passively without any risk involved. No risk, +5 training.
- A player in null, actively participating in warfare is the most opposite side of the story. He won't purhcase +5's because he is being podded every other day. He is playing with much greater risk, so he gets +0 ones.

See the pattern? These implants are simply breaking risk vs reward rule. They're working reverse.

Think reverse, if everyone would be able to train 2700 sp/hr equally, what would that do bad to Eve? What is so bad about this? I see more advantages than adverse effects, if any.

Yes, absolutely. One caveat: ALL implants that modify attributes should be removed (you can keep the other effects on hybrid implants, but attribute modifiers need to go). This change would meet the intent of my request. Fundamentally, I am not concerned with some absolute value of SP per unit time. Rather, I find the relative skill point gain from one player to another which rewards the risk averse and punishes the risk taker. As such, removing all learning implants (not just "pure" learning implants) from the game without a foundational attribute modifier is fine with me.

I don't remember who said it on this thread, but the point of their post was excellent: What if we never had learning implants (any implants that modified skill training times), but then CCP suddenly decided to reduce everyone's base attributes by 5 each and insert learning implants into the game? I honestly don't think that would be the type of change which would get a standing ovation at fanfest. On the contrary, I think it would be negatively received. The purpose of this thread is to reverse that negative decision regardless of the fact that it has been around for quite some time.

Also, as another option, if people are still determined to leave learning implants in the game that's fine. However, if that's the case, the implants should be removable without damaging them so as to not penalize players with a 19-24 hour (depending on skill level) clone jump timer. Players should be able to switch them out at will. I think this is a nice compromise if we can't come to a unified agreement on the removal of the implants altogether.

Even after this change people will find another reason not to undock or fight. Learning imps have nothing to do with that.

*some people*

I wonder just how many people are out there that don't undock only because they don't want to lose their implants. I know I'm one of those.

your example is goes from base line to worst with the possibility of reaching baseline again. Where as in eve we have the base line and implants to improve from the baseline.

The training time to use +5 offsets a lot of the gain from them over +4 which are available in the "pvp" set now.

Regardless, the fundamental effect on the game is exactly the same (which was my point).



It takes just over 355 days to gain back the skill points from Cybernetics IV to Cybernetics V (skill required to use +5s as opposed to +4s). So yes, it does take a significant amount of time. However, I have been playing for more than a year (as have many tens of thousands of other players) and have thus regained the time cost to train Cybernetics V.

Nonetheless, I don't feel that it added anything to the game for me to train that skill or sit in station with +5s to maximize SP/time. Which is why I am requesting that attribute modifying implants be deleted from the game (OR at the very least made "removable" without destruction so players aren't as heavily penalized for taking risk).

Calculated risk should offer the possibility of greater reward. Learning implants reverse this dynamic and thus disincentivize enjoyable game play. Which is why they should be removed.

I don't get how people can say they use +3's for PvP?

Sure, in low-sec, I know how to get my pod out. But I haven't set a foot in nullsec because of implant costs. That's literally my only reason.


If I wanted to live in null-sec and fight there constantly, I don't get how people can justify putting in +3's every time they undock. Losing 40mil everytime I try to fight in a 10mil frigate is terrible. Especially when I die more than once a day.


Also, I like how people are stating that somehow "fun" and "pvp skills" are rewards now. We should just remove LP from faction warfare because all the reward you need is the "fun" and "pvp skills" you get right?

You made a choice and are not happy with it but that is the way of things with Eve. Many people are happy with learning implants as they are (and I don't just mean bittervets). I'm now eying up the combat implants myself for better performance with the attributes side effects, they'll be far more expensive and useful to me but hey, that's the risk and reward thing people keep mentioning :)

Implants dont stop me PvPing, they do however stop me PvPing in THAT clone. Which is fine, I'm not anal retentive about SP/hour.

But I can see how silly that is, the risk reward is out of kilter at best but frankly closer to assbackwards: Dont risk the implants, biggest reward vs risk lesser implants, lesser reward.


And let's be clear, it's not "dont PvP" it's "dont roll in null, in THAT clone".

There is a reason that null pods are very rarely carrying anything shiny.

Nothing taken personally, it's fair comment, but you DONT just sit in dock - you simply don't go to null. I'd never use a 2B battleship - but an expensive pod in null is like an officer fit frigate, that's just the reality.

"That" clone hasn't even been jumped into in many a moon - I just use low level stuff (I'm talking +2/+3 here) as I live in null and death is far from uncommon.

As a player it matters not an iota to me, but the meta/risk-reward seems whack when I take a step back and look at it. Mind you, I LIKE that null pilots almost never have stupid implants, keeps everyone honest and you know what you're getting into 99% of the time.