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Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.14 06:05:00 - [1] Here's a screenie from Sisi showing the new changes: Updated Vengeance Changes: +1 Low slot +5% damage per AF level in place of optimal Armor goes from 625 to 725 Shield goes from 688 to 590 Power grid goes from 47 to 48 Originally by: Patch Notes The Vengeance laser optimal range bonus has been changed to a laser damage bonus. Also, its armor and power output have increased, while sheilds have been decreased. A new low power slot rounds out the changes. A grid increase of ONE? FFS, make it at least five, or seriously reconsider what it takes to fit Medium Beam/Pulse Laser IIs. Nice changes otherwise, I think. I was really hoping for more grid on this ship with the update. <sarcasm>Will CCP give a SVE style refund to anyone who bought one planing on more grid?</sarcasm> -- Carebear > Why'd you do that? I just got that ship! Pirate > I just got that ammo, do you hear me whining?
Khadur	Posted - 2006.06.14 06:08:00 - [2] Hmm i dunno, i think it still sucks.
Hitomi Ayame	Posted - 2006.06.14 06:19:00 - [3] Well, it hasn't gotten any worse... At least it got its last slot, and a damage bonus. But one MW increase? As in, the least a mount you could possibly increase it? That's just...weak. Hopefully it'll get some extra grid sometime soon, and maybe a slight boost to the capacitor as well. If cap is supposed to be one of the ship's strong points (as indicated by it's bonus to cap recharge) then why is its base capacitor worse than the Retribution's? The changes were a step in the right direction, for sure, but this little ship still has a ways to go before it's near on par with other AFs. - - -
Hakuin	Posted - 2006.06.14 06:35:00 - [4] Edited by: Hakuin on 14/06/2006 06:35:16 Little better for PvE Still sucks for PvP
Hakuin	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:12:00 - [5] 3x Dual Light Pulse II 1x Arbalest Rocket 1x Cadalyzed Cold-Gas MWD 1x Scrambler 1x Web 1x Small Armor Rep II 1x Energized Thermic Membrane II 1x Heat Sink II 1x 200mm Tungsten Plate and 0.0 pg left...
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:13:00 - [6] Originally by: Hakuin 3x Dual Light Pulse II 1x Arbalest Rocket 1x Cadalyzed Cold-Gas MWD 1x Scrambler 1x Web 1x Small Armor Rep II 1x Energized Thermic Membrane II 1x Heat Sink II 1x 200mm Tungsten Plate and 0.0 pg left... That's not bad at all, if it fits cpu wise.. Whine whine whine, sigs
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:18:00 - [7] The extra low slot is nice but it still does no damage. It's probly gonna stay crap untill khanid get loving.
Hakuin	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:31:00 - [8] Originally by: KilROCK That's not bad at all, if it fits cpu wise.. 20+ cpu left so it fits...1400 armor with the plate, not bad. DPS sucks. Its better ok, but its so limited Any idea for fitting this khanid**** better?
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:33:00 - [9] 'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I Medium Pulse Laser II Medium Pulse Laser II Medium Pulse Laser II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Inhibitor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Small Armor Repairer II Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Thermic Plating II Needs AWU 4, 0.2 PG/12.5 CPU left. 906 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/64/71/84 No MWD, but you don't always need one. -- Carebear > Why'd you do that? I just got that ship! Pirate > I just got that ammo, do you hear me whining?
Lucian Alucard	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:55:00 - [10] tbh I would drop the heat sink for a IFFA,even with AF 5 and max skills plus a hs ur not doin much damage try wearing ur enemies out tho and the iffa will help alot. Internal Force Feild Array I is what I am talking about btw.
Miss KillSome	Posted - 2006.06.14 08:08:00 - [11] jesus apart from dps, did u check its resistances? and they even give it more armor.. check enyo for instance: armor almost the same, but check its explosive resistance.. u can tank armor pretty well on this ship.. and it has shield, alot of shield, with its resists..come one.. but it is funny: 1MW more like someone is making fun of Vengeance pilots:D
gfldex	Posted - 2006.06.14 09:02:00 - [12] I went to sisi to give it a try and it's still a joke. CPU is that low that this additional low slot has to take a cap relay. And it's still not doing good damage compared to all other AFs. So it's not a good tank, not a good gank and not a good tackler either (to slow). What is it for? -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Lucian Alucard	Posted - 2006.06.14 09:37:00 - [13] Comic relief?
Seidr	Posted - 2006.06.14 10:18:00 - [14] I hear the Carebears are looking for a new floor worker in their factory, this new Vengeance will do nicely. Don't get me wrong, I appreciated the changes but really, compared to the other changes this is a really poor move.
BirdBleed	Posted - 2006.06.14 10:30:00 - [15] amarr get screwed over again.... but hey ..... this ship just like the retri .... does wonders in a 100 man blob. The hawk changes are soooo much better than this, so sad -_-
Atom HeartMother	Posted - 2006.06.14 11:59:00 - [16] TBh lots of people knock the vengance but i quite like it its got a nice role if you know how and when to use it, these new changes willhelp the ship as it was needing them before but it seams more and more people on the forums dont realise that all ships need to be equal as if they where the game would be no fun to play.
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.14 12:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Atom HeartMother ..if you know how and when to use it.. This has become a standard phrase that people use to argue for something. If you're so convinced, then please share your ideas a least. If you don't want to divulge your setup, don't post this as it's nothing more than saying 'haha, I know something you don't but I won't tell you'. It doesn't help the discussion and doesn't prove its usefulness either. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Cruz	Posted - 2006.06.14 12:14:00 - [18] Would be more Khanid esque if it had another mid slot :P IMO why don't they just make the ship the amarrian hawk... Give it 4 launcher hardpoints or at least 3, give it a 5% Launcher ROF and Damage bonus, and let it armor tank. An armor tanking missile spewer, pwnage at its best. Forget laser bonuses. .................
Night Hawk	Posted - 2006.06.14 12:30:00 - [19] Just change all Khanid ships to armor tanking missile boats and have done with it. Different, no split weapon bonuses, nice amarr-caldari bridge.
xenorx	Posted - 2006.06.14 19:47:00 - [20] Im happy for the minmitar and caldari pilots. The minmitar got love to both of their AS. The caldari finally got the hawk they wanted. We Amarr got...well the shaft. This version of the vengence is not any worse than it was before I guess. It might be a little better. We will just have to see how it goes. The Retribution got ignored for some reason though. If there was an amarr AS with wasted potental, its the Retibution. Why is it so hard for them to drop the utility high slot and and move it to a mid? No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 19:57:00 - [21] Don't suppose anyone saw the Jag changes before the pulled the 14 patch?
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Sarmaul Don't suppose anyone saw the Jag changes before the pulled the 14 patch? Now stop making my Amarr whine into a Minnie whine, k? -- Carebear > Why'd you do that? I just got that ship! Pirate > I just got that ammo, do you hear me whining?
Lock out	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Sarmaul Don't suppose anyone saw the Jag changes before the pulled the 14 patch? Pulled the 14 patch? Eh? The ship changes are on SiSi right now, even though it still says version 3913.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Lock out Originally by: Sarmaul Don't suppose anyone saw the Jag changes before the pulled the 14 patch? Pulled the 14 patch? Eh? The ship changes are on SiSi right now, even though it still says version 3913. grr I give up with CCP's patch naming system :/ _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Jita Scouter	Posted - 2006.06.15 04:50:00 - [25] Well maybe this? Highs: 2x Med pulse II's 1x Dual light pulse II 1x Small Knave Nos Mids: 1x 1MN AB II 1x Named Web 1x Named 7.5km Scrabbler Lows: 1x SAR II 1x Active Thermal Harderner 1x Heatsink II 1x CPR Idea came from the standard Retribution 'Med Pulse PvE' setup that i've adapted for PvP in the new Vengeance. Damage isnt as amazing as the Retribution, but its a hell of a lot better than the old vengeance. The cap is more than stable and looks like you can do some solo'ing in it.
Exiled One	Posted - 2006.06.15 05:40:00 - [26] It's still bolox, the dmg is low, tank won't improve. The ship is a piece of ** People used to pvp in vengeances keeping their targets at range (somehow, a ***** jag can do +700m/s) with dual lights beams, but now it's just up and close and vengeance gets eated alive, not enough dps and bloody adaptives t2.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2006.06.15 07:25:00 - [27] Isn't it obvious? +1 Low slot, +1 MW powergrid... they want you to add another Resistance Plating mod. Though I suppose if you had the extra CPU you could also use it for a Heat Sink. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Svett	Posted - 2006.06.15 07:30:00 - [28] It could use slightly more pg increase, but I do like the changes. I have a few vengance sitting in the hanger, been there for months :(
Atom HeartMother	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Atom HeartMother ..if you know how and when to use it.. This has become a standard phrase that people use to argue for something. If you're so convinced, then please share your ideas a least. If you don't want to divulge your setup, don't post this as it's nothing more than saying 'haha, I know something you don't but I won't tell you'. It doesn't help the discussion and doesn't prove its usefulness either. its not as much about seting it up more knowing its place on the battlefeild mate
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:00:00 - [30] 1 pg ... man come on How about at least 2-3 ? If not, then please explain why. /Mav Poverty
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:07:00 - [31] Originally by: Atom HeartMother its not as much about seting it up more knowing its place on the battlefeild mate Why don't you tell us what awesome place on the battlefield your vengeance takes? Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Atom HeartMother its not as much about seting it up more knowing its place on the battlefeild mate Why don't you tell us what awesome place on the battlefield your vengeance takes? "Least likely to be called primary" is my guess.
Alpdruck	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:12:00 - [33] Unimpressive.
Exiled One	Posted - 2006.06.15 14:22:00 - [34] look, the thread is on the 2nd thread already, lets bloody train minmatar and gallente.
Gripen	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:12:00 - [35] Setup I was using before as gang support: Small Armor Repairer II, Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II, Tracking Enhancer II Warp Disruptor, Tracking Disruptor II, 1Mn Afterburner II Medium Pulse Laser II x3 With Scorch Crystals: DPS=73, Optimal=19406 Tracking Disruptor was very usefull when fighting other AF and cruisers. Me and two my corpmates in interceptors almost killed Deimos. He couldn't hit webbed inty because of disrupted tracking, but jumped out with half of structure left. Now try to create something close to that with new vengeance - pulses are not an option anymore and beams are doing less damage even with new bonus. And to hit something with beams you'll need a web, so no EW. This patch is heavy nerf to vengeance imho.
Executor Tassadar	Posted - 2006.06.16 20:20:00 - [36] amarr get f****** screwed over again ccp give the amarr some love!
NOC Point	Posted - 2006.06.16 22:13:00 - [37] Edited by: NOC Point on 16/06/2006 22:14:15 The problem with that setup Grip is that virtually anything can dictate range to you unless they are webbed by a corp mate. As a gang setup I agree it's fine but those pulses wern't hitting for much anyway without a bonus or damage mod. I actually fly a vengeance quite a bit even as although it's not great right now, it's what I'm trained for. As far as I can see the extra PG for the new low slot is just to fit an adaptive nano (faction for 30% if possible). Nothing else worthwhile will fit there with no extra cap. So it now tanks better and does approx 20-25% extra damage than it did before with the same setup. new setup High - 2 medium pulse II's, 1 medium gattling II or rocket, nos (you need the nos as you will be nossed more often than not and once nossed without a counter, you're dead) Mid - named AB (one less grid than t2 and the Veng is SLOoooOW anyways), scram, web Low - Small rep II, thermal hardener, energised kinetic, heat sink, DB adaptive nano It's better but certainly still weak on the damage front imo IMO to make it a good ship it needs enough PG to fit at least a 200 plate or 3 medium pulse II's without having to use up a low for a power mod or sacrificing it's tank. When you consider how effective the other races AF's are and considering the Retri can't tackle, this ship desperately needs to be better. How many Vengeances do you see? I doubt you'll see many more after the patch
Lisento Slaven	Posted - 2006.06.16 23:31:00 - [38] I just want to know what the vengeance is supposed to be doing anyways. Tackling? ECM? Target painting? Flying around doing nothing? --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Gripen	Posted - 2006.06.17 01:41:00 - [39] Edited by: Gripen on 17/06/2006 01:42:19 Originally by: NOC Point The problem with that setup Grip is that virtually anything can dictate range to you unless they are webbed by a corp mate. As a gang setup I agree it's fine but those pulses wern't hitting for much anyway without a bonus or damage mod. Interceptors never get get themselves webbed by AF anyway. And web is not needed for anything larger unless it's a single target trying to get into jump range of the gate. 73 DPS was quite good. Jaguar with 280mm + Gyro does 72 (before incoming patch). Enyo with 125mm + Magnetic Field Stab - 88, but has only 2 mids. Originally by: NOC Point So it now tanks better and does approx 20-25% extra damage than it did before with the same setup. You are still going to use pulses without optimal bonus? It will take a lot of time flying from one target to another in the battle and if anything goes wrong you won't be able to get out of disruptor range before you die. You'll loose lots of vengeances fitted that way imho. Btw, your setup lists 5 lows.
NOC Point	Posted - 2006.06.17 22:28:00 - [40] 5 lows lol - yeah forget the heatsink - typed it in without thinking. Pulses with scorch get to about 15 which isn't bad. BTW regarding range, if you're engaging outside of disruptor range - what exactly are you doing there?
Gripen	Posted - 2006.06.17 22:57:00 - [41] Originally by: NOC Point Pulses with scorch get to about 15 which isn't bad. 11250m and 12937.5m with one tracking mod. That is not acceptable with the speeds of AF. Originally by: NOC Point BTW regarding range, if you're engaging outside of disruptor range - what exactly are you doing there? Where did I said that? 17.5-19km orbit is enough to scramble target and leave fast if nossed and attacked by drones.
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.06.17 23:06:00 - [42] Edited by: Kyguard on 17/06/2006 23:08:15 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Flying around doing nothing? Bingo. Increase the pg by at least 4-5 please, I want to be able to fit dual light beams since there is no optimal range bonus. Looks like minnie are becoming flavour of the month for fixing, /emote throws amarr char into garbage. === God is on the side with the best arti
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:20:00 - [43] Setup im testing atm (already managed to fend off plated thorax :) HI: 3x dual pulses t2, 1x arby rocket launcher MID: MWD t2, 7.5km scram, hypnos multispec LOW: 200mm plate, rep t2, CPR, heat sink t2 Can use all guns + scram + jammer 24/7. If needed it is possible to pulse repper (or rep online and pulse jammer).
Jita Scouter	Posted - 2006.07.21 16:04:00 - [44] I have been running a 2xMed Pulse/1xDLP setup, and Im thinking about switching the pulses to Beams. Everything else in the setup is exactly the same, I just wanna see what ppl think: Highs: 3x Dual light Beam II's (Gleam and Microwave) 1x E5 Nos Mids: 1x 1MN AB II 1x X5 Web 1x Best named 7.5km Warp Scrambler Lows: 1x SAR II 1x N-Type Thermic hardener 1x CPR 1x Heatsink II Like I said, My pulse Setup that i am currently using is exactly the same, Just with 2 Med Pulse II's and 1 DLP II. What do you all think?

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