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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Malcom Dax
Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance
7
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:37:00 -
[61] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote: I don't care about the ratio of hit/miss. I'm not going to stare at someone for a few minutes, watching him get shot at, to determine that approximately 60% of those shots actually mised. I want to see that the last three shots from the enemy battleship landed on the friendly interceptor, and he will most likely need repairs NOW.
Would you actually watch for RR targets this way? I can't see this being of much use to you in a large fight, since there would be too many targets to watch and you can use the watch list to see actual damage, which is more informative than hits anyway. At best you would be able to watch one additional person (maybe more if you have good camera skills) but to me this is such an edge case and of such little utility that I'd prefer to see simulated hits/misses.
Blacklight Incorporated: Recruiting now for PvP and Industry. |
Mjana
Switzerland EVE Corp.
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:40:00 -
[62] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Then finally ever considered giving a bending line for the autocannons? "Firing Arcs" faster the target higher the bend? not sure how much more backend that would require though. You can probably do a modification of this for hybrid/arty misses as well.(where shot spin simply destabilized the round and it arcs off randomly after missing) I don't see any physical reason, why a completely passive projectile (without any propulsion devices to adjust their trajectory) should have a bent flight path after launched from a cannon.
Did you watch "Wanted" one too many times? Even tough it would surely look funny if turrets would do that "fling" move, it still wouldn't work (as prooved by Mythbusters). |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
302
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:42:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Choloepus wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Outstanding work!
Please forgive this suggestion if it is not practical, but a reasonable solution to showing other ships hit/miss effects:
Ships that are in your watch list currently send accurate damage information, as well as any ships you have targetted (at least I presume so since we have a guage showing their curent damage level). If this information is already being passed, would it be possible for at least these ships (which are points of interest, and often closest to you) to show the hit/miss effects?
If so, that would probably take care of most of the ships you'd care to visually see hit/misses. Accurate info, points of interest around you covered, but without having to try and fake it for large numbers of ships.
As far as showing the hit/miss effects for ships you have your camera focused on... would be nice, and great you are considering it, but I would think it would be the least practical solution. However, if it is possible this would be great too.
Repectfully submitted, although you've probably already considered this. No apologies for suggestions! If they've been raised before, it's at worst an extra vote for the feature, and more frequently covers some new ground as well. As it happens, this has come up before and it sounds like a solid idea to me. Things on your watch list might not be handled in exactly the same way as your targets and ship, but they do get at least some additional information compared to everything else on grid so we'll definitely be checking this out.
Excellent! Fingers crossed.
I just didn't want to either presume, or sound like I presume, to know exactly how your code base works like so many others have done. It bugs me when people do that. (especially when, more often that not, they have no idea). To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
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CCP Choloepus
C C P C C P Alliance
47
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:44:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jaldard wrote:Quote:We could send information about every shot to everyone in a fleet battle, but this would be a huge increase to server load and communication bandwidth to the point where Team Gridlock would (quite rightly) fire me into the sun for even suggesting it. I don't think so, of course it will have an (insignificant) impact on the bandwidth, but not on the server load, at least not in a negative way. It seems obvious that it is more effective for the server to send all the data rather than computing (for each player) a list of what needs to be sent. Of course I am not aware of the oddities that might exist in the server code, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Now, I am not a server guy, but it adds up rather more quickly than you might expect.
Currently, after each damage calculation the server sends the relevant information to two parties, the attacker and the victim. At some point, shield/armour/hull values will also be sent to anyone targeting or watching the victim, but that's not necessarily synchronous and can be tacked on to other information once a tick.
So if you've got 100 ships all shooting at one other ship indiscriminately, you're sending out 100 hit/miss packets to the aggressors and 100 to the poor gankee.
Under the new regime, you'd be sending out 100 hit/miss packets to each aggressor, for a total of ten thousand, plus the 100 to the gankee. That kind of O(n^2) scaling is less than good.
I await CCP Masterplan's e-mail explaining how much black magic I've swept under the rug, but yeah. From a vertex-herder's perspective, that's why it's bad. |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
302
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:49:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mjana wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Then finally ever considered giving a bending line for the autocannons? "Firing Arcs" faster the target higher the bend? not sure how much more backend that would require though. You can probably do a modification of this for hybrid/arty misses as well.(where shot spin simply destabilized the round and it arcs off randomly after missing) I don't see any physical reason, why a completely passive projectile (without any propulsion devices to adjust their trajectory) should have a bent flight path after launched from a cannon. Did you watch "Wanted" one too many times? Even tough it would surely look funny if turrets would do that "fling" move, it still wouldn't work (as prooved by Mythbusters).
The individual shots themselves don't arc, but the burst "appears" to arc across the sky as the gun is tracking the target. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
68
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
It looks lovely on SiSi! Reminds me of Clear Skies 3 (time stamp 59:00) Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
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Aerieth
J0urneys End Journeys End Alliance
2
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:59:00 -
[67] - Quote
/begin typical eve player unnessecary rage
More turret love I see. So my missiles are OK coming out of NO WHERE! That's not immersion breaking at all!
Quote: Missiles aren't affected. The mechanics of (and code for) missile combat is very much a different kettle of squamous betentacled beasties.
Maybe that's a hint you should fix it?
/end
At least it's something ... I'll never see it. Just like I have yet to see the new turrets but yay for everyone else. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2011.11.18 18:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP Choloepus wrote: Under the new regime, you'd be sending out 100 hit/miss packets to each aggressor, for a total of ten thousand, plus the 100 to the gankee. That kind of O(n^2) scaling is less than good.
Yeah, that kind of plans tend to cause Those That Watch The Server Performance look for places where they could dump the body of the programmer suggesting it... well that, and a murderous look. Neither is good.
Hence I can fully understand not doing it like that. At least not for big fights. Sorry for earlier assuming that the client already did it like that - I made the assumption based on the experience as to how the server keels over and dies when enough people start settling their territorial disputes on a single grid. With lazors and heavy artillery and stuff. I guess the server is then just choking due to the movement related information that has to be transmitted to everyone about everyone on the same grid...
One option could be to do it like that for up to N players on grid and when N gets too big, it falls back to the old system, with perhaps some special cases to help the situation - stuff like transmit info about the ship you are Looking At, transmit info about ships in your watch list (up to N ships if it becomes a perf problem) etc...
"Impossible (and O(n^2) scaling) problems are just problems that need creative solutions that are usually based on cheating and misdirection."
But all that probably needs a lot more experimenting and profiling so you do not accidentally the whole server performance in fleet fights. We don't want that. Ever. Must have 1000 man fleet fights that are playable. Much more important than any shiny miss effects.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
302
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Posted - 2011.11.18 18:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
Aerieth wrote:/begin typical eve player unnessecary rage More turret love I see. So my missiles are OK coming out of NO WHERE! That's not immersion breaking at all! Quote: Missiles aren't affected. The mechanics of (and code for) missile combat is very much a different kettle of squamous betentacled beasties.
Maybe that's a hint you should fix it? /end At least it's something ... I'll never see it. Just like I have yet to see the new turrets but yay for everyone else.
Previous dev blogs have already discussed this. Reworking the missile and missile launcher mechanics are planned already (indeed, with V3 work being done it's pretty safe to assume that some of the work is already being done). It's a matter of completely reworking most everything about how they are currently handled, including the launching points themselves.
When you consider that missiles are already the most lag inducing weapon system in the game it's little wonder that it's going to be a large and time consuming operation.
I will be much happier when the work is done, so you aren't alone in that, but rest assured the issue isn't being ignored.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Pierced Brosmen
Priory Of The Lemon
8
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Posted - 2011.11.18 18:18:00 -
[70] - Quote
Top of the head suggestion...
In a fight with several involved parties, could the server make a quick estimate at a set interval (cycle) for the hit/miss percentages and send that to the involved parties (plus spectators as long as that wouldn't cause too much extra traffic) and for the next interval the client will use that information to simulate hits and misses?
This would mean that all simulations will be one cycle behind, but should still give an idea of overall accuracy in the fight and will not add the load of telling everyone about every hit/miss relating to everyone else then you and your target. |
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
359
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Posted - 2011.11.18 18:26:00 -
[71] - Quote
Mjana wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Then finally ever considered giving a bending line for the autocannons? "Firing Arcs" faster the target higher the bend? not sure how much more backend that would require though. You can probably do a modification of this for hybrid/arty misses as well.(where shot spin simply destabilized the round and it arcs off randomly after missing) I don't see any physical reason, why a completely passive projectile (without any propulsion devices to adjust their trajectory) should have a bent flight path after launched from a cannon. Did you watch "Wanted" one too many times? Even tough it would surely look funny if turrets would do that "fling" move, it still wouldn't work (as prooved by Mythbusters).
Phsyics apply quite alot over a large interstellar distance, there is alot of gravitional forces ships exert along with the solar system its self all of these are effecthing shot projetories eventually.
Either way the shot arcs for auto cannons are not a phsyics thing is an accuracy thing you're leading your target so your entire volley winds up in the target instead of the first few bullets as the rest of the stream flys by.
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Jaldard
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.18 18:28:00 -
[72] - Quote
CCP Choloepus wrote:Under the new regime, you'd be sending out 100 hit/miss packets to each aggressor, for a total of ten thousand, plus the 100 to the gankee. That kind of O(n^2) scaling is less than good. That's ~1.2ko/s assuming all the ships have a 1s RoF. Come on ! TQ can tank that ! |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
6
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Posted - 2011.11.18 18:46:00 -
[73] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Phsyics apply quite alot over a large interstellar distance, there is alot of gravitional forces ships exert along with the solar system its self all of these are effecthing shot projetories eventually.
Fights in eve apply within ranges under 250 km, most of the time way under that. I would hardly call that 'large interstellar distance'. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Havak Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.11.18 18:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
I think this should be delayed until it has been refined a bit more. There seem to be a few too many things that don't work about it to make it into the expansion. |
Kari Trace
21 SVC Corp Fidelas Constans
7
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Posted - 2011.11.18 19:09:00 -
[75] - Quote
*ekk* :D
My pants...
I now have to change them....
+1 to the awesome counter for Crucible. wtfe |
Meditril
Stardust Heavy Industries
15
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Posted - 2011.11.18 19:23:00 -
[76] - Quote
Running lvl 3 missions in assault frigates will make much more fun when you see all the misses etc. Cool improvement!
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StukaBee
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:20:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Choloepus wrote:[Thanks!
Something which has been suggested on these fora and which I really liked the sound of: as the quality of the shot increases (grouped weapons assumed), you have more hits arrive at the same point on the model. So a wrecking shot would look like current TQ, but a standard hit would hit different points on the ship, and light/barely hits would partially miss the target.
The last is currently in testing and art approval by the way, it may not arrive with Crucible but I'll try to get it live as soon as possible.
Oh wow, if you can get visuals varying according to the type of hit, could this be taken further to give differing effects according to whether the shot is hitting shields, armour or structure?
For example, if I'm shooting a target and his shields are still intact the shots would cause shield flare and energy discharge, as a I took his shields down and started hitting his armour that would change to sparks and impacts on the armour plates, and once I was through to structure the shooting would be penetrating the ship itself and causing internal fires and explosions.
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Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:22:00 -
[78] - Quote
Keep going like that, and we'll actually get the battle recorder & machinima at some point |
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CCP Choloepus
C C P C C P Alliance
51
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:34:00 -
[79] - Quote
StukaBee wrote:Oh wow, if you can get visuals varying according to the type of hit, could this be taken further to give differing effects according to whether the shot is hitting shields, armour or structure?
For example, if I'm shooting a target and his shields are still intact the shots would cause shield flare and energy discharge, as a I took his shields down and started hitting his armour that would change to sparks and impacts on the armour plates, and once I was through to structure the shooting would be penetrating the ship itself and causing internal fires and explosions.
Yup! This involves an artist making some nice impact effects, but otherwise shouldn't be too hard. We've also been discussing having a few more effects for when a shot punches through the last of your shield/armour and starts chewing away at the next layer of tank. This would need a bit of hysteresis built in to avoid it looking silly under reps.
All optional of course, as this kind of stuff would definitely add a small performance hit unless we can claw some frame time back elsewhere.
Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to think up pretty new things to do with this feature than it is to get everything done. Nevertheless it's much better to have a full backlog than the alternative! |
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Faith Sunstrider
Manufact Co.
3
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:39:00 -
[80] - Quote
Good job CCP. Now.. we need some ship crew (maybe in the next expansion) and you can get back to work on dust and wod for one more year. :D
(but we'll need half of CCP working on bugs that *maybe will* appear) |
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Dwindlehop
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:51:00 -
[81] - Quote
Tork Norand wrote: Send the Hit Ratio out to the clients every 10 seconds or so, and let the clients randomly show that number of targets getting hit.
Something along these lines would be sufficient to pick up on whether your fleet was tracking or not.
I fully support spending frame budget on impact effects. \o/ |
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
62
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Posted - 2011.11.18 21:08:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Would it really add that much to include a single bit (hit/miss) to the information your client receives about shots around you that are not directed at you?
I mean, the client must already receive information about all the gunfire because it can render it... and server must be the one deciding what hits and what misses (if it weren't, EVE would already be hacked to bits) so... there must be a steady flow of packets during fleet fights to every participant about every shot being fired on grid as it happens according to the server simulation.
We. Are. Talking. About. A. Single. Bit. Some Pro coding will embed it nicely into the current data (just steal one bit off some value that is being sent about each shot and use it for this), so the added amount of data would be zero.
0/1. Miss/Hit. The rest can be made up by the local (client side) rendering code.
ITT: Amateur computer scientists. BTW, this isn't how network data works at all. You can't just 'add a bit', you need to add context and other things. Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
Leemi Sobo
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
I would suggest that projectile turrets should have 'no animation' in case of a miss instead of a 'miss animation' because Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a b!tch in space
On the other side ... would be cool to miss a target @delve and insta-pop a noob ship somewhere in empire |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
161
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:30:00 -
[84] - Quote
Could this be expanded to ships I have on my watch list, and/or ships I got targeted? The client does get information about those ships being hit, taking damage. Is it sufficient to allow miss animations? CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
365
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Posted - 2011.11.18 23:01:00 -
[85] - Quote
yeah Id hate to make these sorta changes to eve pre carbon it must be a nightmare.
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Starbuck Mulligann
Encina Technologies Namtz' aar K'in
2
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Posted - 2011.11.19 01:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
I've seen this on SiSi and it really adds a fantastic depth to combat. You can actually see the difference traversal makes!
Bravo! |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Limitless Inc.
195
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Posted - 2011.11.19 03:26:00 -
[87] - Quote
Couldn't care less. this is a signature |
EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance
0
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Posted - 2011.11.19 04:55:00 -
[88] - Quote
@CCP You should not need to send information on every shot fired only the ones that miss. This should be much easier to implement. |
Warde Guildencrantz
Fake Philanthropists P I R A T E S
4
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Posted - 2011.11.19 05:47:00 -
[89] - Quote
Can missile graphics please get fixed before the end of the crucible set of expansions? People keep avoiding it, and its like ignoring a reasonable portion of the playerbase and giving something nice to everyone else in the playerbase with turret graphics. |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
284
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Posted - 2011.11.19 06:08:00 -
[90] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: If you did send hit miss info to the 100 people in your above example, you would not send 100 packets to 100 people, you would send one packet with 100 hit-miss bits to 100 people. The trick to doing this is to keep the bandwidth down by clever encoding. The client would have to have some sort of ordering of ships it keeps internally, so it can associate each bit with each ship. Also, a bit would be set to "miss" if in that tick the weapon was not firing at all.
Also, showing all hits-misses could be a feature that is normally on, but gets turned off as soon as TiDi cuts in, or gets close to cutting in.
yeah. what he said. Maybe the problem even doesn't exist since its unlikely anyway that all ships alpha strike at exactly the same game tick. Its rather a constant very low data rate stream to the client than a big packet - totally neglectable compared to things like voicechat. You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked
a proper bounty system for eve: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 |
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