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Kalaan Oratay	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:14:00 - [31] Just wait for the new battleships, I predict the bottom of the market to fall out. (but I'm naive) ---
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Kalaan Oratay Just wait for the new battleships, I predict the bottom of the market to fall out. (but I'm naive) Everyone said that about T2 battlecruisers too. The reason HACs are so popular is: 1) Relatively low skill requirements 2) Mobility 3) Damage T2 Battlecruisers and most probably T2 Battleships will fail miserably at points #1 and #2. Make Khanid Useful!
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Ling Toriyama Originally by: Khatred How about some logistic cruisers price complains? Oh wait, those are crap and nobody wants to fly them, everybody wants to fly ships that have an "uber" aura surrounding them. you got 16 hac bpos..... hax Only 16? Thought it was more... 17, thinking of giving him my Vagabond BPO. Can I have some vagabonds before you do
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:29:00 - [34] the problem is not just the availability and the price of the ships (as a good). The problem is also the time invested training for them (ive hac 5 and rarely fly them because the current game makes them as dead as any other ship without a stabbed up setup). Last but not least think about the economic problems we already see, t2 market sooner or later develops purely into a "who has the most recon/commandship/hac bpos" situation because only those bpos pull the insane profits needed to think of buying 2-3 more bpos of that kind (for an individual, ive no doubt ascn or other big alliances could collect the money to buy such a bpo or a few for the team).
DARKKK	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Kcel Chim the problem is not just the availability and the price of the ships (as a good). The problem is also the time invested training for them (ive hac 5 and rarely fly them because the current game makes them as dead as any other ship without a stabbed up setup). Last but not least think about the economic problems we already see, t2 market sooner or later develops purely into a "who has the most recon/commandship/hac bpos" situation because only those bpos pull the insane profits needed to think of buying 2-3 more bpos of that kind (for an individual, ive no doubt ascn or other big alliances could collect the money to buy such a bpo or a few for the team). If you find one to sell, i might add.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:36:00 - [36] All I can say is I'm sure CCP never meant the HAC's to cost you 200mil, probably more like 50mil (I read that somewhere don't remember where) and 200mil is just crazy i think they should double the amount of BPO's
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Sarmaul The reason HACs are so popular is: 1) Relatively low skill requirements I know what you are saying but thats a pretty depressing statement to someone 5 months into the game.
noitulos	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:19:00 - [38] I'm gonna get in on this because the t2 BPO market is broken beyond belief. Of course the BPO owners don't want competition, but without it you have what we have now...an oligopoly (means a monopoly with a handful of players) with limited supply and increasing demand. Irl a company invents something new and gets a patent for it. This allows them to freely produce that item without competition (as a reward for inventing something new and valuable) from the exact same product for 7 years or something like that. After that patent expires, competition is allowed back in and other people can produce the same item. In eve, once someone has a t2 BPO, the patent lasts forever because there is no way possible for anyone to produce this item. It is essentially a license to print money without the chance for any competition...ever. Add to that, the fact the T2 BPOs are released on a purely chance based lottery...and the only way to play the lottery is to grind agent missions day in and day out...and what you have is a truly broken system in terms of economics. I say release t2 HAC and other BPOs the same way battleships and other t1 items BPOs are released....on the open market, available at any NPC station. For T2 BPOs though, the price tag should be very high. This would allow competition in the T2 market (as there should be), but only to those who have isk or are willing to earn the isk to purchase a very expensive BPO. ______________________________________________ "Every battle is won or lost before it is ever fought." -Sun Tsu
Imperial Coercion	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Sandra Tseng Edited by: Sandra Tseng on 15/06/2006 13:45:44 Did it ever cross your mind that CCP maybe whants HACs and T2 gear to be a bit more rare and hard to get? A little bit special? I thought faction ships were supposed to be rare and hard to get? Also, if they want T2 to be rare how come the market is flooded with T2 mods? Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:27:00 - [40] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 15/06/2006 22:26:47 Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Sandra Tseng Edited by: Sandra Tseng on 15/06/2006 13:45:44 Did it ever cross your mind that CCP maybe whants HACs and T2 gear to be a bit more rare and hard to get? A little bit special? I thought faction ships were supposed to be rare and hard to get? Also, if they want T2 to be rare how come the market is flooded with T2 mods? Coz resellers collects them over time. They dont all pop when ship pops. Hippo and Sarmaul: Sure. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Originally by: Jenny Spitfire A real killer is a person who has neither implants nor T2 to lose
Imperial Coercion	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:34:00 - [41] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Coz resellers collects them over time. They dont all pop when ship pops. Thats certainly true, but surely there are ALOT more t2 mod bpo's than t2 ship bpo's? Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:42:00 - [42] Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Coz resellers collects them over time. They dont all pop when ship pops. Thats certainly true, but surely there are ALOT more t2 mod bpo's than t2 ship bpo's? Maybe but I do doubt it. Difference between ships and mods is, one when it is popped, it is popped. The other depends on luck. If CCP likes you, you get to loot everything. Supplies do increase over time just like ISKs. Ships when you pop it, it is removed from the game. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Originally by: Jenny Spitfire A real killer is a person who has neither implants nor T2 to lose
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:45:00 - [43] and don't forget, t2 mod bpos can produce mods at a far higher rate than you can produce HACs. Make Khanid Useful!
Dnol Arendale	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:58:00 - [44] Personally, I'd like to see all the HAC produces just stop producing them for one month. Then, after that month, people will either have A. moved on to other ships B. They can jack the price even higher! of course, that wont happen ever
Blacklight	Posted - 2006.06.16 00:48:00 - [45] Edited by: Blacklight on 16/06/2006 00:49:25 There isn't a problem with the T2 ship supply. There is a problem with people believing they should have access to all ships equally when in a competitive player driven market. Some things are meant to be rare and Eve is supposed to have a dynamic market driven by the players. If we all had access to everything all the time what would be the point in having a player driven market, you may as well have the NPCs supply everything, which would utterly ruin Eve. It's the "I want, I want" mentality coupled with the "I don't want to work for it and don't understand the concept of teamwork and high end gameplay" mentality that causes all the whining about T2 bpos. Edit: I do agree the lottery has been a disaster when it comes to T2 bpo distribution though, the model should be effort = reward and not luck = reward. Eve Blacklight Style
Father Weebles	Posted - 2006.06.16 00:57:00 - [46] Edited by: Father Weebles on 16/06/2006 00:58:28 mabye its the fact that i dont want to spend 20mil isk on 1 item(cap recharger 2 ftw), pay 1.5mil for one medium tech2 drone or pay 100's of mils for non insurable ships....losing that sure aint fun not to mention i dont want to give my isk to some lucky greedy ass bpo winner
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.16 01:10:00 - [47] Originally by: Blacklight Edited by: Blacklight on 16/06/2006 00:49:25 There isn't a problem with the T2 ship supply. There is a problem with people believing they should have access to all ships equally when in a competitive player driven market. Some things are meant to be rare and Eve is supposed to have a dynamic market driven by the players. If we all had access to everything all the time what would be the point in having a player driven market, you may as well have the NPCs supply everything, which would utterly ruin Eve. It's the "I want, I want" mentality coupled with the "I don't want to work for it and don't understand the concept of teamwork and high end gameplay" mentality that causes all the whining about T2 bpos. Edit: I do agree the lottery has been a disaster when it comes to T2 bpo distribution though, the model should be effort = reward and not luck = reward. i have no problem with hacs being very expensive but then they should up the production costs of them by alot, because i dont want to feed a lucky bpo owner with free money i have a problem if production costs are about 30 mill and sell price goes from 100-250 mill i have no problem if ccp decideds to up the production costs up to 100-150 mill, the ones crying the loudest will be the bpo owners and alliances who hold bpos and produce to low cost for their members if they intended them to be THAT rare then they would up the production costs, if thats not the case, then they will increase the availability Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Cohkka	Posted - 2006.06.16 01:11:00 - [48] T2 ship market buggers me. I think CCP should release new bpos after 6 months, maybe even let the BPOs be available on the market after a certain amount of time. That way, R&D researchers still have an advantage but one HAC BPO won't make you one of the richest players in EVE for untill the server shuts down... Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Cadiz	Posted - 2006.06.16 01:37:00 - [49] My main complaint with the current t2 BPO system (particularly in regard to HACs), it completely screws newer players. Basically, they have no chance whatsoever to get their hands on a HAC (or t2 large gun, or covert ops cloak, or whatever) BPO unless somebody decides to sell one at exorbitant cost - the odds of which are slender indeed, considering the enormous utility and profitability of those key BPOs. So what you've got is a hegemony of the established old guard, and at the time being there is no real way for anybody who came in after those BPOs completed seeding to attempt to compete, barring a ridiculous stroke of luck (namely finding somebody actually willing to sell the BPO...and then being able to outbuy people who already have t2 BPOs and are seeking to expand their collection). We'll have to see how reverse engineering pans out, although it'd also be nice to see an extra t2 BPO of each type seeded once a month or so. What was once cutting edge becomes more common over time, yes? ------ Director, Blood Moon Horde "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Athena Valentina	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:27:00 - [50] Imo the whiners and moaners about the HAC prices are just too lazy to get off their 4ss. I mean what are the prices, 200M for a vaga, 160M for an Ishtar. If you go out mining in 0.0 you can make that money easily in a normal day of gaming. Hoard high-end ore or NPC's for a few hours and buy a HAC the next day. Its not as if ISK is that hard to come by Sheesh.
fire 59	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:40:00 - [51] If people are stupid enough to pay 200-300 million for a hac, then so be it. Just because you can earn enough isk in a short time to get one doesn't mean you have to be dumb enough to pay 300%-400% above production cost or whatever. It's like knowing something in RL cost's ú5 and the store is selling them for ú20, most people would be miffed off because it's a rip off. At the end of the day, whatever . Iron and G eat babie's , my views are my own, they do not refect my corp or my alliance
Sandra Tseng	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:46:00 - [52] Edited by: Sandra Tseng on 16/06/2006 08:46:15 Originally by: Father Weebles Edited by: Father Weebles on 16/06/2006 00:58:28 mabye its the fact that i dont want to spend 20mil isk on 1 item(cap recharger 2 ftw), pay 1.5mil for one medium tech2 drone or pay 100's of mils for non insurable ships....losing that sure aint fun not to mention i dont want to give my isk to some lucky greedy ass bpo winner If you do not want to spend 2+ mil on a cap recharger II you can always spend 8 mil and get an Eutectic recharger instead. No one is forcing you. I do agree on the insurance part though. it is just crap and crap Sig Removed. Sig requirements are 400*120 Pixels and 24000 bytes or less. Please e-mail us with any questions. -ReverendM ([email protected])
Bren Kasir	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:49:00 - [53] waves at fire fancy seeing you here. Personally as a player with no t2 bpos and who flies recons i have no problem with the cost of t2 ships. The whole point of flying a 130mil cruiser is it has a lot more advantages, and you get a real sense of fear when you enter an engagement that is most definitely well placed in a game like Eve. Keep prices high, make people appreciate that their ship _is_ better and _is_ worth risking that much isk for. You can earn the isk easy either mining or ratting 0.0 or running missions in empire, especially when the ship makes running the missions easier still. Bren Kasir --- You want fries with that?
Phoenix Pryde	Posted - 2006.06.16 09:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Blacklight There isn't a problem with the T2 ship supply. seconded TRUST Shop // Infinite Improbability Inc [3-I]
fire 59	Posted - 2006.06.16 16:29:00 - [55] Hey bren mate, waves madly Iron and G eat babie's , my views are my own, they do not refect my corp or my alliance
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.16 17:52:00 - [56] Edited by: Sarmaul on 16/06/2006 17:52:29 Originally by: Blacklight There isn't a problem with the T2 ship supply. There is a problem with people believing they should have access to all ships equally when in a competitive player driven market. Some things are meant to be rare and Eve is supposed to have a dynamic market driven by the players. If we all had access to everything all the time what would be the point in having a player driven market, you may as well have the NPCs supply everything, which would utterly ruin Eve. It's the "I want, I want" mentality coupled with the "I don't want to work for it and don't understand the concept of teamwork and high end gameplay" mentality that causes all the whining about T2 bpos. Edit: I do agree the lottery has been a disaster when it comes to T2 bpo distribution though, the model should be effort = reward and not luck = reward. The problem is the number of competitors is strictly controlled by CCP. In every other aspect of EVE a group of determined players can go out and steal business/space from other players except the T2 market, where you either have to win by luck or grind an extortionate amount of ISK and hope someone is having a blond moment and selling a BPO on the forums. The other form of high-end content (and IMO should be the true end-game) is controlling 0.0 territory. Lets have a system where if you want to try and control a region you have to erect (stop s******ing) as many POS as possible. Each POS counts as a "POS Point" - a small gets you one point, medium 2 and large 3. Then, when CCP decides to release a new station, the owner of that new station is randomly chosing using a lottery style system. The only way for someone to take control of that station is for the owner to either sell it or give it to someone else. Okay, it's a rather contrived analogy (I've just come back from work so give me a break) but it's exactly the way the T2 BPO system works. It's pure luck based on how many points you can grind out. There is no player skill involved, just how many accounts you can run at once and how quickly you can get those science skills up. Once that's done, all that's left is to sit back and hope you get lucky. Of course, the other way to play the game is to wait for someone to sell a BPO on the forums and try and outbid everyone else. The problem is that one of the biggest forms of income comes from owning a profitable T2 BPO, so those people are naturally put at an advantage over those wishing to try and enter the market. Oveur has stated himself that there are not enough HAC BPOs in game yet no more were added. Instead of releasing more BPOs, it looks as if we're going to be getting a system that forces us to grind out specialized complexes in the hope of getting a limited run BPC while the 20 lucky people are still given permission to control the market as they fit. I long for the day when any corporation, with enough dedication and teamwork can aquire a full T2 portfolio and provide them to corpmembers at cheap prices like they can do with T1. Sadly it seems CCP would rather sidestep the issue than fix it properly. Anyway, /rant mode off edit: and it's always funny to see the corps/alliances with the T2 BPOs defending the system :) Make Khanid Useful!
Tehyarec	Posted - 2006.06.16 20:26:00 - [57] My main issue with the whole T2 BPO deal is that it completely ****s up the supposed "risk vs reward" setup in EVE. Sure I'd like a T2 BPO to build for myself given the silly prices of buying many T2 stuff, but as if that's gonna happen. Those lucky & rich few such as Khatred just hog every friggin' good T2 BPO imaginable, and a few unimaginable ones too I presume. Building a few T1 ships here and there just doesn't quite compare Silverleaf Foundation Website & Shop

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