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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.15 20:55:00 -
[121]
Edited by: spurious signal on 15/06/2006 20:56:13
This is the 3rd time I've tried to word a reply to this thread.
At first I was going to lay into CCP and bemoan this reimbursement. I was going to make comments about respect and trust and how they're so easy to lose and hard to win. I was, in particular, going to make some unpleasant comments aimed at Dark Shikari.
However, I've thought about it some more. At the end of the day the money involved here isn't important. It's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. Sure, not to most of us. DS says that the billions he lost is "5-6% of his assets", which is nice, we'd all like to be that rich, lovely, but that's not the point. The real currency here is respect and DS knows already that any that he had on these boards, in this game - and let's not fool ourselves here, these forums are a central part of the game, make no mistake - is already gone.
My personal respect for CCP is now back where it started almost. Like many others here I am very glad that the decision regarding scams in the future was made and that the rules were clarified so well. But I disagree with the refunding of both parties, however, that's not important.
What's now crucial is that CCP come up with some extremely good mechanisms that enable the existence of both the emergent gameplay seen in the stock exchange/IPO's AND allows the continuation of the pvp element attached to these. Both investors and scammers need a system that lets them co-exist, a system that creates dynamic tension between the two sides of the coin, that lets players succeed when they're skilled and fail when they're inept, whichever side of the game they decide to exercise their skills (or lack of) on.
But please, CCP, keep these mechanisms within the game. Don't resort to deus ex machina solutions like GM reimbursement unless the situation genuinely merits it, and for gods sake stop listening only to the forum warriors - engage with ALL YOUR PLAYERS, not just the vocal minority.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:00:00 -
[122]
I guess I'll echo everyone and say I'm glad the rules were changed back, but not glad that the GM's friends got to keep their ISK. Personally I think all those reimbursed who claim to not care about the ISK and claim that they certainly weren't the ones who begged to the GMs should take all that money that they should have rightfully lost, and donate it to the alleged "good guy" IPOs that get all kinds of congrats on the forums but somehow weren't good enough for your 25 billion.
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:06:00 -
[123]
I dont understand why ccp makes this decision and then does not follow up completely on it, let the reimbursed keep their isk ? Preposterous, every financial action is logged, it should be easy to backtrack and take away the isk.
Bad decision ccp, kind healers leave stinking wounds, as they say in my country.
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Ulle
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:12:00 -
[124]
I'm seriously hoping there is a part III to this story ... scammer won, scammed didn't lose, but the entire stock market has been seriously gutted by leaving 100% of the risks on one side and 0% on another, so far from:
 Originally by: kieron
We made what we feel is the best decision for the good of those involved and spirit of EVE.
No mention of this problem from any dev yet. Zero risks is the new spirit of EVE ?
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Vosi
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:21:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Vosi on 15/06/2006 21:23:56
Edited by: Vosi on 15/06/2006 21:21:45
Its good to see CCP have cleared things up for the benifit of EvE and made things very clear.
I dont have problems with the people in this case getting the money back keeping it as CCP made the mistake so on this front they got lucky so long as its made very clear like it has that this was a slipup with CCP covering the bill. Besides if they are dumb enough to trust strangers you can be sure it wont be in their hands for too long 
The scammer got his money back and CCP have saved their reputation.
Good ending thank god, normally these threads can herald the end of a game.
Lets hope that this incedent re-affirms to CCP that we are 100% behind the harsh high penalty MMO which gives us all adrenaline kicks :)
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Sovy Kurosei
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:22:00 -
[126]
Probably what I would have done in CCPs shoes. Glad to have the rules clarified, wish you could have acted on this sooner so you could have avoided duping ISK but oh well.
___________________
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Iantine
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:24:00 -
[127]
I agree that the scam was done within the rules, and I never expected to get my money back (And I never did, btw. There were many people who never got refunded). And it's probably true that those refunded shouldn't get to keep their money, but I accept Kieron's reasoning that it isn't possible to undo.
However, there are two objections that I have. One is that some investors were refunded and some weren't, which is to me a much worse injustice then anything done to the scammer/victims. I don't really care about getting my own money back (I luckily only lost a paltry 50 million, which might influence my decision). I just think that either no investors should get refunded, or all of them should. All of those refunded returning the money to Kieron would suit me fine here.
The second point I have is that this shows the stock market really needs more protections for investors. Previously someone took my words to an absolute and said I was pushing for it to be impossible to lose money in the stock market, but they couldn't be more wrong. I'm not asking for protection from failures or scammers, just the ability of stockholders to protect their investment. Give the option for companies to require stock votes for things that could be used to loot the company, like purchases over escrow or more then 200% market value, giving all the company's cash to someone, etc. Without this the stock market is going to die due to the dozens of copycat scams SVE will spawn.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:26:00 -
[128]
Meh, weak.
Idiots have been absolved of the responsibility for their actions.
CCP has taken the easy route and smothered everyone with ISK to smooth ruffled feathers.
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Pepperami
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:31:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Iantine
I agree that the scam was done within the rules, and I never expected to get my money back (And I never did, btw. There were many people who never got refunded). And it's probably true that those refunded shouldn't get to keep their money, but I accept Kieron's reasoning that it isn't possible to undo.
Well if that's really the case then those who have regained isk need it taken, or alternatively, those who have not recieved their isk need it. Some people getting isk back and others not is *really* unfair.
[Art of War][- V -] |
Xelios
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:35:00 -
[130]
I think this was a good way to handle it. The rules were not clear before, so the only fair thing to do is to compensate both sides and then clear up the rules for future situations like this. Some isk was duped but that's not a big deal, what's important is the rules are now clear and this won't happen again.
_________________________________
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Ulle
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:36:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Pepperami
Some people getting isk back and others not is *really* unfair.
Indeed, it should be all or none, or conspiracy theories will thrive on this for some big damage in the short term.
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:39:00 -
[132]
In reply to the original post:
As has been said, nice "pragmatic" decision. A flawed decision, but any decision would have had arguable flaws.
The game needs "sting" tools for making scamming a more two sided affair.
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Brannor McThife
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:42:00 -
[133]
Originally by: kieron
...If someone is offering a HAC BPO for 5M ISK, chances are it is a scam.
Lies!!
Auction of the Century!!!
-G
Dulce bellum inexpertis... |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:42:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Meh, weak.
Idiots have been absolved of the responsibility for their actions.
CCP has taken the easy route and smothered everyone with ISK to smooth ruffled feathers.
The rules are now right for the future, afaik. I can live with someone getting a bucket of ISK for that 
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Vorick
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:44:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Iantine
I agree that the scam was done within the rules, and I never expected to get my money back (And I never did, btw. There were many people who never got refunded). And it's probably true that those refunded shouldn't get to keep their money, but I accept Kieron's reasoning that it isn't possible to undo.
However, there are two objections that I have. One is that some investors were refunded and some weren't, which is to me a much worse injustice then anything done to the scammer/victims. I don't really care about getting my own money back (I luckily only lost a paltry 50 million, which might influence my decision). I just think that either no investors should get refunded, or all of them should. All of those refunded returning the money to Kieron would suit me fine here.
The second point I have is that this shows the stock market really needs more protections for investors. Previously someone took my words to an absolute and said I was pushing for it to be impossible to lose money in the stock market, but they couldn't be more wrong. I'm not asking for protection from failures or scammers, just the ability of stockholders to protect their investment. Give the option for companies to require stock votes for things that could be used to loot the company, like purchases over escrow or more then 200% market value, giving all the company's cash to someone, etc. Without this the stock market is going to die due to the dozens of copycat scams SVE will spawn.
Opps, especially considering the subject matter I should probably post with my main. This is it (and the one that lost the 50 mil)
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:45:00 -
[136]
A mistake was made, and it's negative effects have been reversed. I ain't too pleased about the result that lets the vics keep their cash. But at this stage I probably would have done the same myself. Taking it away again now would be pretty damn harsh.
When evil and strange get together anything is possible
Yeah it needs work, but it'll do for now. |
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:53:00 -
[137]
If there are players, corporations or alliances that have not been reimbursed from direct involvement in this IPO scam, submit a petition.
To those that are going out of their way to besmirch others in this thread for their involvement or lack thereof (you know who you are), or spreading around conspiracy theories about 'GM friends getting their money back', just stop.
Disagree with the decision if you like, but leave the ranting, trolling and "OMG, CCP YOU $%(#" off the forums. The names of those involved in this did not enter the discussion at any time.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online |
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Macon Squaredealer
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Posted - 2006.06.15 21:55:00 -
[138]
Overall a pretty good resolution CCP, and kudos for basically saying mistakes were made. Although I could quibble about allowing the scam victims to keep their reimbursements I wonÆt do so. ItÆs not their fault that they were erroneously reimbursed, and it would be a bit hard even by Eve standards to take their money away again even if they do deserve to lose it. You do need to clear up why some got their money and some didn't though.
Hopefully now the rules pertaining to scamming are clear enough that GMÆs wonÆt have to interpret them. Unless it involves GTCÆs, character transfers, or other trades involving real money itÆs fair game. That seems clear enough.
Lessons learned:
1) Never change the rules retroactively.
2) Never take measures against players for past actions that were within the rules that existed at that time.
3) Resist the urge to give yourself as much latitude as possible in the rules by using weasel words like ômaybeö. Provide clear and easily understandable/enforcable rules that are as black and white as possible.
4) Ensure the GMÆs understand that their mission is to make impartial decisions based on the rules, not interpret/change them to support what they want them to be.
YouÆve done about as good of a job as can be expected to correct this mess. I honestly don't care what your scamming rules are as long as they are clear and consistently applied.
Regards
___________________________________________
Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months. |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.06.15 22:23:00 -
[139]
What was the scam? Anyone got a linky for those of us who are only 99% forum *****s?
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Kerushi
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Posted - 2006.06.15 22:31:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 22:34:31
Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 22:33:51
wait, forum scam wich are in the rules are getting refunded in the billions and the scammer keeps the money he scammed?
in that case, why can`t the stuff wich i lost during a server bug not be returned with the person who got it for 0.0 also keep it?
Kieron, tbh, this draws the line, i lost 1.9b as it couldn`t be proved and that guy had the stuff but now billions of isk are getting duplicated to an honest(but sucky) scam and not to a server bug, sorry but wtf
IPO = risk, every one knows it ffs
now i want my stuff in the last petition back aswell, kthx
________________
I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes
lol thanks :-) |
Doctor Octagon
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:03:00 -
[141]
Take the money back from the people who gambled with it, give it to the scammer.
The solution chosen here is dead wrong. Glad im not reading the forums too much, cause everytime im here, the decisions made here are making me wondering what i am doing here still.
Stop the kindergarden CCP. If you feel the scammer earned his isk and should have it back, the people backing him up should pay their debst and get it withdrawn.
Kinda reminds me of the horrible decision with reimbursement on a patch date, when everyone who lost ships made bucketloads on insurance and modules.
And maybe teach your GM's to take the evidence (isk) and keep it with them until decisions are final.
And please people who gets their isk back, and are trying to justificate CCP's actions. Please stop the Cherade, its a shame about the whining from you in the first place, its a shame from CCP after, and its patetic listening to you trying to make it sound ok afterwards.
Im trying to keep the faith in your staff here CCP, but you are sure making me struggle.
One more nail in my EVE coffin.
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Sosus Red
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:12:00 -
[142]
Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP.
Sig must be under 24000 bytes - Cathath ([email protected]) |
Sha'Uri Dark
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:16:00 -
[143]
Originally by: kieron
Originally by: Sangxianc
That was good until this sentence: "The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement."
They got scammed, fair and square. That's weak.
Too much time has passed since the initial reimbursement to reverse it. Yes, I know there have been players with negative wallet balances in the past, but not of this same scope. Here are the options we had to work with:
Punish the scammer for a legit scam and take away the ISK?
Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK?
Punish all involved and take the ISK out entirely?
Let everyone keep their money?
We made what we feel is the best decision based on the options available to us.
They got scammed fair and square by your own admission, they shouldn't be allowed to keep the ISK. Anything less fails to "keep the spirit of EVE".
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Kerushi
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:16:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Sosus Red
Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP.
same idea here, and was thinking to buy 1-2 more chars to strip mine ark... several ipo scams will solve that heh
________________
I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes
lol thanks :-) |
Kerushi
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:27:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 23:28:16
Originally by: Sha'Uri Dark
An idea: Why not split the 25B amongst those envolved, 1/2 to the scammer and the other 1/2 gets split amgonst the scammed.
there is no compromise or they refund every one who got scammed by a player or by some ***ass bug(wich are enough of in game)
edit, typo`s as usual
________________
I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes
lol thanks :-) |
Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:27:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Sosus Red
Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP.
Is that the sound of one hand clapping?
Scamming is a legitimate game play tactic but it is in violation of the EULA to convert ISK into $$$.
You probably already knew that, but since you were being obtuse I thought I'd respond in kind.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:32:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Sosus Red
Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP.
If you have what it takes to be a scammer, be my guest.
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Sha'Uri Dark
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:37:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Kerushi
Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 23:28:16
Originally by: Sha'Uri Dark
An idea: Why not split the 25B amongst those envolved, 1/2 to the scammer and the other 1/2 gets split amgonst the scammed.
there is no compromise or they refund every one who got scammed by a player or by some ***ass bug(wich are enough of in game)
edit, typo`s as usual
The idea was to keep 25B from magicly being droped into the game. I'm one for they lost it fair and square and shoudln't be allowd to keep it.
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Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2006.06.15 23:37:00 -
[149]
25 billion is not a lot of money compared to how much is generated every day by complexes, missions, mining etc.
The rules are clear now so theres no point in continuing to ***** about this any longer.
Infinity Ziona
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.16 00:02:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 16/06/2006 00:04:49
Originally by: kieron
Too much time has passed since the reimbursement, and to remove said ISK would have too large an impact on that portion of the community.
  
I think players shouldd've had the isk taken away.
Time nothing, they just don't have any 'right' to have that ISK. They were stupid, they should've paid.
Risk vs reward, and all that.
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