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Regarding IPOs, and Scams, Pt. II

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)

kieron	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:59:00 - [1] Recently, there was a large IPO scam perpetrated in-game that involved a lot of players, a lot of ISK and no small amount of emotion. Community reaction to the scam and subsequent reimbursement has been mixed, but heated none the less. It was the community response that prompted a closer look into the incident, how it was handled and what we are going to do to resolve the situation on our part. I am fully aware that the community reaction to our solution is going to be mixed, but we feel it is the most fair, equitable and keeping within the spirit of EVE. First off, the rules for the Sell forum are going to be amended. Since the forums are a mechanic of the game, but blur the lines, it is permissible to post scams with the following limitations: Scams involving the transaction of real world currency are not permitted. This includes character transfers, GTCs for ISK, and other services that involve the exchange of goods or services for real world currency. As with in-game, Caveat Emptor. If someone is offering a HAC BPO for 5M ISK, chances are it is a scam. It is up to the buyer to perform due dilligence before making a purchase, and as long as the scam does not involve the exchange of real world currency, exploits, or an out of game mechanic, it's fair game. Regarding the recent scam, reimbursement and actions taken, the scammer worked within the limitations laid out in the game rules and Reimbursement policy. The ISK he scammed has been returned to him and the detrimental marks on his account have been removed. The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement. Too much time has passed since the reimbursement, and to remove said ISK would have too large an impact on that portion of the community. I know there are going to be a number of opinions on this ranging from, "Good decision!" to "OMG, you b$@%$#)*s just ruined the game (or ecomony, my alliance, etc.)!!!111" We made what we feel is the best decision for the good of those involved and spirit of EVE. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:00:00 - [2] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:03:10 First \o/ I hope this settles the issue... though I'm not sure it will. You never know, in EVE... Speaking of which, Kieron, if you can answer a question: Does the upcoming Contracts system include ways to limit the possibility of IPO scams through contracts? And a second question: EMFI, the mutual fund, has not been reimbursed yet due to the fact that it used the corporate wallet to pay for the shares. Does this mean that EMFI will not ever be reimbursed? This would not at all be fair, as most investors have been. Do I assume rightly that EMFI will get reimbursed along with everyone else, even though the petition hasn't been responded to yet? --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:01:00 - [3] Edited by: HippoKing on 15/06/2006 19:01:51 oh yeah, good decision. I like how it went, but I'd rather you left the forums de-restricted too edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:01:00 - [4] Seems pretty pragmatic on the first read. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Tobizuru	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:01:00 - [5] Darkie: 1 Hippo: 0 -------------------- If I only had a Face... :'(
Scorpyn	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:02:00 - [6] Seems like you came up with the best solution imo.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:02:00 - [7] Originally by: HippoKing Edited by: HippoKing on 15/06/2006 19:01:51 oh yeah, good decision. I like how it went, but I'd rather you left the forums de-restricted too edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though Er, they are. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Flyyn	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:03:00 - [8] hahahaha both of you cant be first!!! Good call on CCP's part... This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:03:00 - [9] Originally by: HippoKing edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though Actually, you are right. It isn't like people haven't ended up with negative wallets before. Yup, cop out. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Avon Originally by: HippoKing edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though Actually, you are right. It isn't like people haven't ended up with negative wallets before. Yup, cop out. Not really. I think this is a fine solution: it keeps the precent proper for the future without going back on their decision. This is a very minor incident compared to the ramifications a precedent in either direction would have. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:04:00 - [11] While I do disagree with the reimbursement, I must agree that taking the ISK back right now would create a problem. This rule change will make it different on the forums, the false sense of security involving scam prevention will be removed. My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:03:10 First \o/ I hope this settles the issue... though I'm not sure it will. You never know, in EVE... Speaking of which, Kieron, if you can answer a question: Does the upcoming Contracts system include ways to limit the possibility of IPO scams through contracts? And a second question: EMFI, the mutual fund, has not been reimbursed yet due to the fact that it used the corporate wallet to pay for the shares. Does this mean that EMFI will not ever be reimbursed? This would not at all be fair, as most investors have been. Do I assume rightly that EMFI will get reimbursed along with everyone else, even though the petition hasn't been responded to yet? How about the investors make good the EMFI out of their duped ISK? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Avon Originally by: HippoKing Edited by: HippoKing on 15/06/2006 19:01:51 oh yeah, good decision. I like how it went, but I'd rather you left the forums de-restricted too edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though Er, they are. Oh bugger, misread that when it said "forum rules are being amended". thanks for the clarification. I really need to not post on important matters when England have football games. Beer 4tw
Jowen Datloran	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:05:00 - [14] Good decision CCP. Now I am looking forward to the new market tools hopefully added with Kali. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:05:00 - [15] Good job. I think that it was established before that you cannot take ISK back because that would put wallets into negative. Good job.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Avon Originally by: HippoKing edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though Actually, you are right. It isn't like people haven't ended up with negative wallets before. Yup, cop out. Not really. I think this is a fine solution: it keeps the precent proper for the future without going back on their decision. This is a very minor incident compared to the ramifications a precedent in either direction would have. I like you DS, but you have a vested interest so I can't really accept your position. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Avon Originally by: HippoKing edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though Actually, you are right. It isn't like people haven't ended up with negative wallets before. Yup, cop out. Not really. I think this is a fine solution: it keeps the precent proper for the future without going back on their decision. This is a very minor incident compared to the ramifications a precedent in either direction would have. well, its your ISK
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Rthor Good job. I think that it was established before that you cannot take ISK back because that would put wallets into negative. Good job. It has been done before. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:06:00 - [19] Originally by: HippoKing well, its your ISK I actually lost more due to the drop in value of EMFI shares that I owned (due to the stock market panic following the scam) than I did to the scam itself. The ISK is not very important. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Sangxianc	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:07:00 - [20] That was good until this sentence: "The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement." They got scammed, fair and square. That's weak. However, the rest of it sounds like it should have been all along in my opinion. ps you just ruined my alliance Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.
Mag's	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:07:00 - [21] Edited by: Mag''s on 15/06/2006 19:07:09 Best way it could have gone, good decision CCP.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rthor Good job. I think that it was established before that you cannot take ISK back because that would put wallets into negative. Good job. It has been done before. yeah, its happened to a lot of people. Me included briefly (insurance payout removed during re-imbursement IIRC)
Havelcek	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:08:00 - [23] Interesting resolution.
Scorpyn	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Sangxianc ps you just ruined my alliance BOB is dead?
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rthor Good job. I think that it was established before that you cannot take ISK back because that would put wallets into negative. Good job. It has been done before. The only time I believe it has been done is when the person who was put into the negative was the person who scammed/etc. For example, there was a scam a while back that earned a guy 5 billion and then turned out to have blatantly violated the rules in one way or another, and the guy ended up like -4billion and whined all over the forums about it. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rthor Good job. I think that it was established before that you cannot take ISK back because that would put wallets into negative. Good job. It has been done before. The only time I believe it has been done is when the person who was put into the negative was the person who scammed/etc. For example, there was a scam a while back that earned a guy 5 billion and then turned out to have blatantly violated the rules in one way or another, and the guy ended up like -4billion and whined all over the forums about it. Nope. People can go -ve when they get a ship replaced and the insurance payout taken out of their wallets. Nope. The money should be taken from the scam victims, simple as. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
mazzilliu	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:09:00 - [27] the world is safe once again from carebears boo on doubling the isk though. "having too large of an impact" is the whole point. --------- keeng's sentry guns KNOW WHERE YOU ARE.
Kahlen Rahl	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:09:00 - [28] Edited by: Kahlen Rahl on 15/06/2006 19:12:50 Originally by: Scorpyn Originally by: Sangxianc ps you just ruined my alliance BOB is dead? It would be bloody time About the decision made by CCP tho, good call. As one of the peope who initially invested in SVE, I considered my ISK lost when I saw the update to the original IPO post. In my current monetary condition however I don't mind getting the ISK back, but as I and several others HAVE recieved the ISK invested, it's indeed only fair EMFi and people like Stingy CEO (who as far as I know hasn't even recieved 1 ISK back) also get the ISK returned then. That way, it'll all be balanced again ... Hats off to CCP for making the right choice.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Avon Nope. The money should be taken from the scam victims, simple as. So clearly you should spam the thread whining about it, rather than accepting the fact that CCP made a decision (which they have stated is final) that you disagree with? --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Scorpyn Originally by: Sangxianc ps you just ruined my alliance BOB is dead? Someone scammed them out of their veldspar
Omber Zombie	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:10:00 - [31] DS, it's been done multiple times. kieron - you have mail :) ----------------------
Sangxianc	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Scorpyn Originally by: Sangxianc ps you just ruined my alliance BOB is dead? And it's all because of that bastard Kieron Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Avon Nope. The money should be taken from the scam victims, simple as. So clearly you should spam the thread whining about it, rather than accepting the fact that CCP made a decision (which they have stated is final) that you disagree with? How else do we disagree? Quietly isn't forum ***** style, you know that better than we do
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:12:00 - [34] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 15/06/2006 19:13:50 Dark Shikari must be a GM...they admitted it was wrong and he still gets to keep his money. Forum horing 4tw I suppose... An instant 20 billion isk of inflation, I like it. Also, since when is 3 days too long to get isk back?
Andrue	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:13:00 - [35] Good decision. Kudos to the CCP team in having the guts to make it. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:14:00 - [36] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Avon Nope. The money should be taken from the scam victims, simple as. So clearly you should spam the thread whining about it, rather than accepting the fact that CCP made a decision (which they have stated is final) that you disagree with? Ironic. Your whining got ISK duped. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:14:00 - [37] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Dark Shikari must be a GM...they admitted it was wrong and he still gets to keep his money. Forum horing 4tw I suppose... As I said, I lost more ISK in the ensuing stock market crash (from a drop in share value) than I did in the scam itself. The ISK was not a huge issue--a mere 6-7% of my assets. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:14:00 - [38] Originally by: Andrue Kudos to the CCP team in having the guts to make it. honestly, i think this decision required the least guts of any of the choices they had. They gave EVERYONE ISK
Mag's	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:15:00 - [39] I don't see how it could have gone any other way tbh. Although I do agree, the victims keeping the repaid Isk does leave a bad taste.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Dark Shikari must be a GM...they admitted it was wrong and he still gets to keep his money. Forum horing 4tw I suppose... As I said, I lost more ISK in the ensuing stock market crash (from a drop in share value) than I did in the scam itself. The ISK was not a huge issue--a mere 6-7% of my assets. 6-7% of my assets is still a pretty good amount of ISK, and you have a lot more than me
Aenean sed	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:15:00 - [41] Would someone like to give me a quick recap of what happend here? Someone got scammed out of a mothership or some such work?
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:15:00 - [42] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:16:23 Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Andrue Kudos to the CCP team in having the guts to make it. honestly, i think this decision required the least guts of any of the choices they had. They gave EVERYONE ISK Interesting... thinking about it, you're right. 1. They didn't deprive anyone of ISK. 2. They didn't change their policy on scamming. 3. Heck, they didn't... do... anything... Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Avon Nope. The money should be taken from the scam victims, simple as. So clearly you should spam the thread whining about it, rather than accepting the fact that CCP made a decision (which they have stated is final) that you disagree with? Ironic. Your whining got ISK duped. And you say that only minutes after congratulating me for not taking part in this flamewar? I purposely avoided discussion of this issue for the whole time it took CCP to make a statement on it. The decision was made in spite of me, not because of me. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Ulle	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:15:00 - [43] Good move. I have only one question. What are you going to do now with the stock market game mechanics ? Any plans ?
Minuet	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:15:00 - [44] Edited by: Minuet on 15/06/2006 19:15:25 Fine. As long as the rules are clairified to stipulate there is no illusion of protection and that scams are allowed, there is no argument. However, in regards to no detrimental marks on the perpetrator, I remind you that he did willfully break the existing rule regarding posting no scams in forum, I hope there will be some penalty for that violation at least? This also does not obviate the fact that better in-game tools for economic play needs to be addressed with some priority.
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:17:00 - [45] A reasonable decision IMO. I too would have preferred a complete reversal of the reimbursement, in line with the rule that was in effect at the time of the incident, but we can't always have everything. I welcome the clarification of the rules and the acknowledgement that the forums are both extensions of gameplay and open to scamming.

kieron	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:18:00 - [46] Originally by: Sangxianc That was good until this sentence: "The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement." They got scammed, fair and square. That's weak. Too much time has passed since the initial reimbursement to reverse it. Yes, I know there have been players with negative wallet balances in the past, but not of this same scope. Here are the options we had to work with: Punish the scammer for a legit scam and take away the ISK? Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK? Punish all involved and take the ISK out entirely? Let everyone keep their money? We made what we feel is the best decision based on the options available to us. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:19:00 - [47] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rthor Good job. I think that it was established before that you cannot take ISK back because that would put wallets into negative. Good job. It has been done before. Yes and I remember them saying that they will not do it again so its OK. Consider this a small price to pay to alternative resolution.
Gina Baldur	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:19:00 - [48] Good decision in general, but the reimbursement of the scammed people is everything but fair. I think the ball is now on them to return the isks that dont rightfully belong to them anymore to CCP.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:19:00 - [49] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:19:51 Originally by: kieron Originally by: Sangxianc That was good until this sentence: "The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement." They got scammed, fair and square. That's weak. Too much time has passed since the initial reimbursement to reverse it. Yes, I know there have been players with negative wallet balances in the past, but not of this same scope. Here are the options we had to work with: Punish the scammer for a legit scam and take away the ISK? Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK? Punish all involved and take the ISK out entirely? Let everyone keep their money? We made what we feel is the bset decision based on the options available to us. Can you please answer the questions in my first post, if you have a chance? Originally by: Dark Shikari Does the upcoming Contracts system include ways to limit the possibility of IPO scams through contracts? For example, by preventing the IPO owner from transferring large amounts of ISK away except in ways described by the investors, and the like. So that one can't just give the ISK to an alt to get out of a contract. And a second question: EMFI, the mutual fund, has not been reimbursed yet due to the fact that it used the corporate wallet to pay for the shares. Does this mean that EMFI will not ever be reimbursed? This would not at all be fair, as most investors have been. Do I assume rightly that EMFI will get reimbursed along with everyone else, even though the petition hasn't been responded to yet? --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:21:00 - [50] Originally by: Dark Shikari roll:] I purposely avoided discussion of this issue for the whole time it took CCP to make a statement on it. The decision was made in spite of me, not because of me. You deny mentioning anything about the whole episode after you discovered you had been scammed, or that if you did it was purely constructive? This outcome is wrong. Everything is fine right up to the point where the victims get their ISK back. That is a cop-out. Still, if you think my comments are unfair, I can live with that. Oh, and if the ISK is nothing to you, return it to CCP and be seen to do the right thing. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:21:00 - [51] ISD = ISk Duping
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:21:00 - [52] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: HippoKing well, its your ISK I actually lost more due to the drop in value of EMFI shares that I owned (due to the stock market panic following the scam) than I did to the scam itself. The ISK is not very important. Put your wallet where your mouth is and send money back to Kieron since you lost it fair and square.
James Snowscoran	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:22:00 - [53] It's a sensible solution. I'm not sure how great an impact on the EVE economy 25 billion extra ISK will have, but if it's deemeed necessary you could always just auction off a few luxury yachts or federation megas as a one-time ISK sink. -----
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:23:00 - [54] Originally by: James Snowscoran It's a sensible solution. I'm not sure how great an impact on the EVE economy 25 billion extra ISK will have, but if it's deemeed necessary you could always just auction off a few luxury yachts or federation megas as a one-time ISK sink. Probably basically nothing. Hundreds of billions of ISK are duped every day through something known as "insurance," and apparently it isn't a problem. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Gina Baldur	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:23:00 - [55] Originally by: Rthor Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: HippoKing well, its your ISK I actually lost more due to the drop in value of EMFI shares that I owned (due to the stock market panic following the scam) than I did to the scam itself. The ISK is not very important. Put your wallet where your mouth is and send money back to Kieron since you lost it fair and square. Qft, CCP did a good decision, now up to you to make it perfect.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:24:00 - [56] Originally by: kieron Punish the scammer for a legit scam and take away the ISK? I hope this wasn't even considered. Originally by: kieron Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK? That is the method most would accept. The scammed did lose the ISK fair and square, though the bitterness from losing it a second time would be huge. As for "punishing" them, when being scammed, losing the ISK is the punishment for gullibility. Originally by: kieron Punish all involved and take the ISK out entirely? Doesn't even need mentioning. Originally by: kieron Let everyone keep their money? Well, I guess everyone involved is happy, but it doesn't make much sense in my mind. I dislike the idea of a GM **up resulting in a "get out of mistake free" card for the scammed. Like I said, I see why you chose this though. Originally by:** kieron We made what we feel is the bset decision based on the options available to us. Not a bad decision, but not what I would have done. On the other hand, I don't have to worry about keeping customers
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:24:00 - [57] Originally by: kieron We made what we feel is the best decision based on the options available to us. Well, everyone makes mistakes kieron. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Mag's	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Minuet Edited by: Minuet on 15/06/2006 19:15:25 Fine. As long as the rules are clairified to stipulate there is no illusion of protection and that scams are allowed, there is no argument. However, in regards to no detrimental marks on the perpetrator, I remind you that he did willfully break the existing rule regarding posting no scams in forum, I hope there will be some penalty for that violation at least? This also does not obviate the fact that better in-game tools for economic play needs to be addressed with some priority. He didn't break the rules. Kieron stated that in his first post. Originally by: kieron Regarding the recent scam, reimbursement and actions taken, the scammer worked within the limitations laid out in the game rules and Reimbursement policy. The ISK he scammed has been returned to him and the detrimental marks on his account have been removed.
Magunus	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:25:00 - [59] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Sangxianc That was good until this sentence: "The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement." They got scammed, fair and square. That's weak. Too much time has passed since the initial reimbursement to reverse it. Yes, I know there have been players with negative wallet balances in the past, but not of this same scope. Here are the options we had to work with: Punish the scammer for a legit scam and take away the ISK? Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK? Punish all involved and take the ISK out entirely? Let everyone keep their money? We made what we feel is the best decision based on the options available to us. The only problem I have with any of this is that you're removing the constraint against scams in the sell forums unless they involve real world cash. I don't even open escrow anymore, and haven't for months because of all the scams kicking real escrow deals out, and I don't feel like picking my way through what remains looking for legitimate escrows. Sell forums will quickly turn into the same thing. Nothing but 3 pages of bumped scam threads and replys to them saying 'scam!'. I hope the contract system will remove the need for both escrow and the market forum group, TBH. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:25:00 - [60] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:25:17 Originally by: Rthor Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: HippoKing well, its your ISK I actually lost more due to the drop in value of EMFI shares that I owned (due to the stock market panic following the scam) than I did to the scam itself. The ISK is not very important. Put your wallet where your mouth is and send money back to Kieron since you lost it fair and square. Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it. However, because I'm not a total jackass, I have accepted CCP's decision as it is and stopped whining about it. I think everyone else in this thread should do the same, and stop complaining. The topic has been beaten to death, and whining isn't going to do anything at all. This is not a topic for discussion, however, and I will ignore any post no matter how inflammatory which attempts to start a flamewar on this particular issue. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Zellin Dalimar	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:27:00 - [61] R.I.P. IPO's I guess there's no equivalent to the US's Security and Exchange Commission in Eve. Ken Lay ftw! -Zel Threat Level - Pathetic
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it. However, because I'm not a total jackass, I have accepted CCP's decision as it is and stopped whining about it. I think everyone else in this thread should do the same, and stop complaining. The topic has been beaten to death, and whining isn't going to do anything at all. This is not a topic for discussion, however, and I will ignore any post no matter how inflammatory which attempts to start a flamewar on this particular issue. What a poor sport. You know, when you lost your ISK that didn't make you a loser... The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:28:00 - [63] Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it You knew there was no system in place and that there was substantial risk when you invested. Thats what an investment is: a risk in the hope of reward. Its not meant to be a "free ISK" button. You were the most insistent posting that the next great Eve scam would be an IPO, but when it happened, you were one of the first in the queue to throw ISK at the guy. You can complain that there should be a better stock market system all you want (and you are right). You can't complain that that means you should have the benefits of it when it doesn't exist. I can't emphasise this: you knew the risk when you invested, and you should lose the ISK.
Sangxianc	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:28:00 - [64] Originally by: kieron Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK? I wouldn't view this as a punishment so much as a correction, but I understand it's a tricky decision that, ultimately, isn't up to me. I do think you did a good job with the clarification/altering of the forum-based rules though, which is probably the bigger issue here. Originally by: Dark Shikari Hundreds of billions of ISK are duped every day through something known as "insurance," and apparently it isn't a problem. Massive exaggeration, you're just starting to sound desperate. Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.
Kilo Paskaa	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:28:00 - [65] Umm whats IPO? /me ducks quickly shouting "INCOMING FLAMING". -------- Quote: MFG I LOST MY NAVY MEGA TO ANGEL EXTRAVAGANZA BHUHHHOOO I QUIT GUNSHOT
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:28:00 - [66] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:27:56 Originally by: Magunus Originally by: kieron Originally by: Sangxianc That was good until this sentence: "The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement." They got scammed, fair and square. That's weak. Too much time has passed since the initial reimbursement to reverse it. Yes, I know there have been players with negative wallet balances in the past, but not of this same scope. Here are the options we had to work with: Punish the scammer for a legit scam and take away the ISK? Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK? Punish all involved and take the ISK out entirely? Let everyone keep their money? We made what we feel is the best decision based on the options available to us. The only problem I have with any of this is that you're removing the constraint against scams in the sell forums unless they involve real world cash. I don't even open escrow anymore, and haven't for months because of all the scams kicking real escrow deals out, and I don't feel like picking my way through what remains looking for legitimate escrows. Sell forums will quickly turn into the same thing. Nothing but 3 pages of bumped scam threads and replys to them saying 'scam!'. I hope the contract system will remove the need for both escrow and the market forum group, TBH. Agreed here... scam threads should be at least locked when they become clear to be scams. No sense in keeping them running. However there should be no repercussions other than the locking of these threads. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:29:00 - [67] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:30:11 Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it You knew there was no system in place and that there was substantial risk when you invested. Thats what an investment is: a risk in the hope of reward. Its not meant to be a "free ISK" button. You were the most insistent posting that the next great Eve scam would be an IPO, but when it happened, you were one of the first in the queue to throw ISK at the guy. You can complain that there should be a better stock market system all you want (and you are right). You can't complain that that means you should have the benefits of it when it doesn't exist. I can't emphasise this: you knew the risk when you invested, and you should lose the ISK. You're not making any sense. I'm saying that such a system should exist, and until it exists, CCP should act as if it did exist. However, PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING MY PERSONAL POSITION ON THE TOPIC, AS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD. Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it. However, because I'm not a total jackass, I have accepted CCP's decision as it is and stopped whining about it. I think everyone else in this thread should do the same, and stop complaining. The topic has been beaten to death, and whining isn't going to do anything at all. This is not a topic for discussion, however, and I will ignore any post no matter how inflammatory which attempts to start a flamewar on this particular issue. What a poor sport. You know, when you lost your ISK that didn't make you a loser... Ever thought that just maybe I actually have a different opinion, and it might not have something to do with the fact that I lost a bit of money? Please shut up about my opinion, because it has nothing to do with this thread. I thought you would be respectful enough to listen to the simplest of requests like this one without flaming and trolling like you are now --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Raven Aure	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:29:00 - [68] Thank you for the information and clarifcation kieron. ______________________ 106 days and still a hijack virgin... Cherry popped! ~kieron Hadron Enterprises
Kenz Rider	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:29:00 - [69] Such a childish scam. How can a financial system be built when such an easy case of fraud has no recourse. This whole situation is totally absurd. The perp is likey revelling in delight, but he did nothing, even claims himself how easy it all was. I may have some respect for him if he keeps and plays his toon and stays in a player corp. Oh well, I'll just keep ratting, PvPing, and missioning until this part of the game develops more (with in-game tools).
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:29:00 - [70] If this is everything CCP can come up with, can they please go through with refunding me, so that I can spend it on GTC's and pay for a trip to japan please ?
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:31:00 - [71] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:26:19 Originally by: Rthor Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: HippoKing well, its your ISK I actually lost more due to the drop in value of EMFI shares that I owned (due to the stock market panic following the scam) than I did to the scam itself. The ISK is not very important. Put your wallet where your mouth is and send money back to Kieron since you lost it fair and square. Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it. However, because I'm not a total jackass, I have accepted CCP's decision as it is and stopped whining about it. I think everyone else in this thread should do the same, and stop complaining. The topic has been beaten to death, and whining isn't going to do anything at all. My personal position on the scam is not a topic for discussion, however, and I will ignore any post no matter how inflammatory which attempts to start a flamewar on this particular issue. Then end yourself.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:32:00 - [72] It's probably exactly what I'd done as well. -t's a good lesson for the community to watch what you invest in. And it's the first scam of this size that has no losers as well :p Old blog
Verone	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:35:00 - [73] I'm a little confused... The player who scammed got the ISK back, and the people who were scammed kept the reimbursed ISK? So, 25bn that was scammed, has now turned into 50bn that has been flooded into the ISK base on TQ? VETO RECRUITMENT
Kenz Rider	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:35:00 - [74] Originally by: Rod Blaine It's probably exactly what I'd done as well. -t's a good lesson for the community to watch what you invest in. And it's the first scam of this size that has no losers as well :p Everyone needing access to capital markets lost. It means less goods will be produced that have a high capital cost barrier to entry.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:35:00 - [75] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it You knew there was no system in place and that there was substantial risk when you invested. Thats what an investment is: a risk in the hope of reward. Its not meant to be a "free ISK" button. You were the most insistent posting that the next great Eve scam would be an IPO, but when it happened, you were one of the first in the queue to throw ISK at the guy. You can complain that there should be a better stock market system all you want (and you are right). You can't complain that that means you should have the benefits of it when it doesn't exist. I can't emphasise this: you knew the risk when you invested, and you should lose the ISK. You're not making any sense. I'm saying that such a system should exist, and until it exists, CCP should act as if it did exist. However, PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING MY PERSONAL POSITION ON THE TOPIC, AS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD. Well, you're the only victim here (actually, stingy just showed up). I am saying that the system doesn't exist, and until it does, it shouldn't be acted as though it does. Basing actions on a system that doesn't exist is like adding a 99.9% POS invulnerability field that can only be broken by t2 dreadnaughts, and then saying "Well, yeah, we are basing this system on the t2 dreadnaughts. We might introduce them at some point". As I said: you (meaining all investors) knew the risks. You (meaning Dark personally) saw it coming. You (everyone) knew there was no safety net, if you thought one should exist or not. It didn't, and you (everyone) knew that. You can't expect one to show up retro-actively because it would be a good idea for one to exist. I don't petition every kill I lose to the multispec of doom because I think it should be changed in the future.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:36:00 - [76] Originally by: Dark Shikari Please shut up about my opinion, because it has nothing to do with this thread. I thought you would be respectful enough to listen to the simplest of requests like this one without flaming and trolling like you are now Well, you were wrong. You were scammed fair and square. You should not be treated any diffently than any other scam victim. I couldn't care less that there is no game mechanism to protect you from this type of scam. You knew there wasn't. If you thought it was a problem you should have used your better judgement and not invested. Oh, and you may be the self proclaimed leader of the [23] and think yourself the uber forum warrior, but if you think that gives you the right to tell me what I can discuss, or to claim I am trolling you, you are very much mistakened. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Mag's	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Dark Shikari Ever thought that just maybe I actually have a different opinion, and it might not have something to do with the fact that I lost a bit of money? Please shut up about my opinion, because it has nothing to do with this thread. I thought you would be respectful enough to listen to the simplest of requests like this one without flaming and trolling like you are now It's not that you have a different opinion, its just that your opinion in this matter is tainted.
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:36:00 - [78] Probably the best course of action, given the circumstances Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Pepperami	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:37:00 - [79] I feel the people that fall for scams do not deserve their isk back, as such, I do not believe they should keep it back in this case. Doubling isk? Seems like a bad resolution. The GM was in heindsight incorrect, so the GM actions should be rectified, surely? However, rules have been straightened out and eve retains its dark side. Which is good [Art of War][- V -]
Gina Baldur	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:38:00 - [80] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/06/2006 19:26:19 Originally by: Rthor Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: HippoKing well, its your ISK I actually lost more due to the drop in value of EMFI shares that I owned (due to the stock market panic following the scam) than I did to the scam itself. The ISK is not very important. Put your wallet where your mouth is and send money back to Kieron since you lost it fair and square. Actually, I don't believe I lost it fair and square at all--I completely disagree with CCP's handling of the IPO system as it exists, and hope that Kali's contract system will resolve it. However, because I'm not a total jackass, I have accepted CCP's decision as it is and stopped whining about it. I think everyone else in this thread should do the same, and stop complaining. The topic has been beaten to death, and whining isn't going to do anything at all. My personal position on the scam is not a topic for discussion, however, and I will ignore any post no matter how inflammatory which attempts to start a flamewar on this particular issue. Sad reply realy. As a scam victim myself I understand CCPs decision and think its a diplomatically wise one. However I personally feel treated extremely unfairly due to some people (well known ones, and wealthy ones - as I stated before) getting their money back while victims of other scams are just dumb nOObs who should have known better and get nothing. Unequal treatment is something I am alergic to.
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:38:00 - [81] Originally by: Magunus I don't even open escrow anymore, and haven't for months because of all the scams kicking real escrow deals out, and I don't feel like picking my way through what remains looking for legitimate escrows. Sell forums will quickly turn into the same thing. Oh buhu. If you can't distinguish genuine deals from scams on escrow, you're best off out of it. The same goes for the forums.
Alessia Karan	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:39:00 - [82] Good decision! At least the rules are clear now, the ISK injection might not be best thing, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
So'Kar	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:40:00 - [83] Good until I read that these who got scammed got the isk back. Sound like CCP is taking the easy way out. I am sure this wouldn't be such problem if there was more accountability in EVE, but with GTC for isk, anonymous alts and character sales there is little no risk for scamming, so these who got scammed can't ever get their revenge (though they got their isk back so they dont need to anyways).
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:40:00 - [84] Originally by: Kenz Rider Such a childish scam. How can a financial system be built when such an easy case of fraud has no recourse. This whole situation is totally absurd. The perp is likey revelling in delight, but he did nothing, even claims himself how easy it all was. Your concerns only indicate that there is a clear basis for improving the share trading system. In this instance, however, the scam fell well within the rules, as CCP have admitted. You should now direct your energy towards suggested precisely how CCP can improve the system to your liking.
Tabet Saens	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:40:00 - [85] I completely agree with the notion that the forum is a mechanism of the game. Kudos to CCP(for seeing the "truth")! I also agree with the scammer getting his/her ISK back and account restored. I don't agree with the scammee's keeping their reimbursement. Sorry, I guess we can't all agree on this. Like HK said, I guess our viewpoints are bound to be different since it is your job to retain accounts, not ours. Oh well, that was fun. Thanks Kieron/CCP for the resolution, I know it wasn't easy.
Marnix	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:42:00 - [86] Looks like you took the easy way out to me. However, there wasnt really a good decision here. So, i'll settle for thanking you for making the mentioned changes to the rules. I am however interested in what prompted the GM in question to reimburse. Why reimburse, when it was a wellknown fact that scamming was allowed, and that identical cases to this one were not reimbursed?
Magunus	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:43:00 - [87] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Magunus I don't even open escrow anymore, and haven't for months because of all the scams kicking real escrow deals out, and I don't feel like picking my way through what remains looking for legitimate escrows. Sell forums will quickly turn into the same thing. Oh buhu. If you can't distinguish genuine deals from scams on escrow, you're best off out of it. The same goes for the forums. Grow up. I never said I couldn't tell the difference. But opening up each and every escrow out there looking for one that's not a scan is crap, and I won't do it. All I'm saying is now I won't bother with the forums either. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:45:00 - [88] They did not necessarily take an easy way out. The onus is on players who got their ISK back, such as Dark Shikari, to make things right. If they choose not to do so it is of course their business but everybody can see now what is important to them. I have confidence that the playerbase will make this right any how.
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:45:00 - [89] Originally by: Magunus Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Magunus I don't even open escrow anymore, and haven't for months because of all the scams kicking real escrow deals out, and I don't feel like picking my way through what remains looking for legitimate escrows. Sell forums will quickly turn into the same thing. Oh buhu. If you can't distinguish genuine deals from scams on escrow, you're best off out of it. The same goes for the forums. Grow up. I never said I couldn't tell the difference. But opening up each and every escrow out there looking for one that's not a scan is crap, and I won't do it. All I'm saying is now I won't bother with the forums either. It's your loss.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:52:00 - [90] Originally by: shwarzkauph people with low moral character 4tw! Just like real life. Yeah, the scammer ends up looking better than the victim. Winnah! The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Sangxianc	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:52:00 - [91] Originally by: HippoKing Well, you're the only victim here (actually, stingy just showed up). I am saying that the system doesn't exist, and until it does, it shouldn't be acted as though it does. Basing actions on a system that doesn't exist is like adding a 99.9% POS invulnerability field that can only be broken by t2 dreadnaughts, and then saying "Well, yeah, we are basing this system on the t2 dreadnaughts. We might introduce them at some point". As I said: you (meaining all investors) knew the risks. You (meaning Dark personally) saw it coming. You (everyone) knew there was no safety net, if you thought one should exist or not. It didn't, and you (everyone) knew that. You can't expect one to show up retro-actively because it would be a good idea for one to exist. I don't petition every kill I lose to the multispec of doom because I think it should be changed in the future. BINGO This is exactly what I thought when I first heard about this. If I think there should be a system where I can attack random people in 1.0 space, I can't just start acting like there is one and get upset when I lose assets (my ship) because of it. The same goes for the victims of these scams. I always hated you Hippo because of your sig and your name but I was wrong to do that. Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.
Arenis Xemdal	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:52:00 - [92] You rewarded ignorance.
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Magunus Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Magunus I don't even open escrow anymore, and haven't for months because of all the scams kicking real escrow deals out, and I don't feel like picking my way through what remains looking for legitimate escrows. Sell forums will quickly turn into the same thing. Oh buhu. If you can't distinguish genuine deals from scams on escrow, you're best off out of it. The same goes for the forums. Grow up. I never said I couldn't tell the difference. But opening up each and every escrow out there looking for one that's not a scan is crap, and I won't do it. All I'm saying is now I won't bother with the forums either. It's your loss. Further to my post above (which I cannot edit ); You are correct though, I did misrepresent what you said. However, I disagree strongly that the state of escrow is as bad as you would have people believe, by implication. Escrow is one of the areas of the game that works incredibly well without regulation and scams are a natural feature of that freedom. The principle benefit of that same freedom is the opportunity for innovoative trade that would not otherwise be available. This opportunity is well worth the cost of sifting through to separate scams from deals, and you may also extend this to the forums, of course.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:54:00 - [94] Originally by: Sangxianc I always hated you Hippo because of your sig and your name but I was wrong to do that. Thanks. I think
Galk	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:54:00 - [95] Originally by: Pepperami I feel the people that fall for scams do not deserve their isk back, as such, I do not believe they should keep it back in this case. Doubling isk? Seems like a bad resolution. The GM was in heindsight incorrect, so the GM actions should be rectified., surely? Correct. Somebody used the word pragmatic earlier, this is a road to nowhere, everybody happy, thus the road to nowhere.. Leasons learned non, 3 years down ccp still havn't got a clue. Decisive, learn the word, be honest, pr buff doesn't cut... ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Beastoria	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:55:00 - [96] Originally by: kieron Recently, there was a large IPO scam perpetrated in-game that involved a lot of players, a lot of ISK and no small amount of emotion. Community reaction to the scam and subsequent reimbursement has been mixed, but heated none the less. It was the community response that prompted a closer look into the incident, how it was handled and what we are going to do to resolve the situation on our part. I am fully aware that the community reaction to our solution is going to be mixed, but we feel it is the most fair, equitable and keeping within the spirit of EVE. First off, the rules for the Sell forum are going to be amended. Since the forums are a mechanic of the game, but blur the lines, it is permissible to post scams with the following limitations: Scams involving the transaction of real world currency are not permitted. This includes character transfers, GTCs for ISK, and other services that involve the exchange of goods or services for real world currency. As with in-game, Caveat Emptor. If someone is offering a HAC BPO for 5M ISK, chances are it is a scam. It is up to the buyer to perform due dilligence before making a purchase, and as long as the scam does not involve the exchange of real world currency, exploits, or an out of game mechanic, it's fair game. Regarding the recent scam, reimbursement and actions taken, the scammer worked within the limitations laid out in the game rules and Reimbursement policy. The ISK he scammed has been returned to him and the detrimental marks on his account have been removed. The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement. Too much time has passed since the reimbursement, and to remove said ISK would have too large an impact on that portion of the community. I know there are going to be a number of opinions on this ranging from, "Good decision!" to "OMG, you b$@%$#)*s just ruined the game (or ecomony, my alliance, etc.)!!!111" We made what we feel is the best decision for the good of those involved and spirit of EVE. its nice to _finally_ get some sort of answer to this heated debate ... however the reimbursement of the money to the people looks like a bad decision ... and personal oppinion of mine is that you should take the money back that was reimbursed ... and please do not lecture about how hard it was to locate them in the first place since I know that you must have some records of who got reimbursed how much. But gj ccp for realising your mistake on this matter and hope you do not discriminate players like that ever again ! --------------------------------------------------
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:55:00 - [97] Originally by: Kenz Rider Originally by: Rod Blaine It's probably exactly what I'd done as well. -t's a good lesson for the community to watch what you invest in. And it's the first scam of this size that has no losers as well :p Everyone needing access to capital markets lost. It means less goods will be produced that have a high capital cost barrier to entry. Indeed. But that is no reason to dissalow scams. It's a reason to come up with a system to regulate IPO's in a better way, to create the transparancy needed for a share market. It's not like people haven't been saying that what you people keep dubbing a stock market is nothing of the sort. It's a market in trust, not financial titles. Trust gets betrayed, and it should be, at least some of the time, because that is part of this game. It's been repeated on these forums ever since the first IPO that the player-run system you are using has holes the size of manhattan in it. As long as you use it you take the risk that comes with a fallible system. I guess we indeed won't see many more small-corp IPO's from now on until the time a formal system is introduced. And that could take quite a while seeing there's some serious hurdles to overcome for CCP there. In the mean time, while we are doing things based on trust, we'll have to limit ourselves to investing in those that have proven their trustworthyness. Old blog
Tristan Acoma	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:57:00 - [98] Thank you for taking the time to listen, to absorb, and to resolve the issue. No matter what other small aspects of the situation can be argued over, the resolution did the best it could given the situation. See you in space....
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:57:00 - [99] Nice one CCP, Im glad with what you did. Its fair. Im looking forward to the new forum rules for selling/trading/buying. I also hope for enhanced game mechanics for IPO's and with good Kali contracts. Thanks for making it something one can quote to. No more arguments about what is allowed and what isnt. Go go EVE. damn need to make a new sig...
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:59:00 - [100] Yeah and its good they stick with the spirit of EVE. damn need to make a new sig...
t3mpus II	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:03:00 - [101] You took the right decision on the scam issue. However I think the problem was not in how to treat scams, but how GMs make decisions. This is the second time a GM decision causes so much trouble (after the SAS, 4S renaming incident) that you have to correct afterwards, after much public debate. So my question is why such important decisions, are taken apparently by junior GMs without escalation to senior GMs or even Devs? How do you ensure their decisions are consistent with the Devs view of the game? No GM except the head of department and Devs should have the power to reimburse 25bn ISK or else we will propably see this ISK duping again in the future in another case and you have set a bad precedent with your today's decision. What are you going to do to ensure that GMs in the future don't take such game-breaking decisions of such scale?
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:05:00 - [102] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari Please shut up about my opinion, because it has nothing to do with this thread. I thought you would be respectful enough to listen to the simplest of requests like this one without flaming and trolling like you are now Well, you were wrong. You were scammed fair and square. You should not be treated any diffently than any other scam victim. I couldn't care less that there is no game mechanism to protect you from this type of scam. You knew there wasn't. If you thought it was a problem you should have used your better judgement and not invested. Oh, and you may be the self proclaimed leader of the [23] and think yourself the uber forum warrior, but if you think that gives you the right to tell me what I can discuss, or to claim I am trolling you, you are very much mistakened. /signed x 10,000,000 /me sincerely requests Dark Shikari is at the very least given a forum warning for his rude & better-than-though forum behaviour MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:08:00 - [103] Edited by: Sir Juri on 15/06/2006 20:08:46 Alot of things can change game mechanics wise, added content and stuff. But the spirit of the game should always remain from the start to the finish. Its a good idea to make IPO's better game mechanics wise. But thats as far as one should go against scams (one that aint using a bug/real life cash.) And like temp said, somethings should be decided by senior GM's, and they should follow the developers wishes. Well guess I got nothing more here to ad, go go Sweden (football.) damn need to make a new sig...
Taketa De	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:11:00 - [104] Glad to hear CCP made what I'd consider the correct decision in the end. The only thing I have a problem with is the returned ISK. Why not just take 50% of what is there (player wallet - up to of course the rinbursed amount) and issue the player an eve mail that the missing amount (if any) will be removed once (1 week, 1 month, 3 months or whatever) have passed. That way a player has time to prepare and if they don't have the ISK at that time and the wallet goes negative, it's their own fault. --- The Advanced Drone Control Panel.
Reia Nym	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:14:00 - [105] So now the Sell Forum is going to be the new Escrow? What will be the point of the Sell forum if I have to wade through all the scams?
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:16:00 - [106] Originally by: Reia Nym So now the Sell Forum is going to be the new Escrow? What will be the point of the Sell forum if I have to wade through all the scams? There has been no change from what the rules were before SVE hit the fan. It will be no worse than it was then.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:17:00 - [107] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Reia Nym So now the Sell Forum is going to be the new Escrow? What will be the point of the Sell forum if I have to wade through all the scams? There has been no change from what the rules were before SVE hit the fan. It will be no worse than it was then. Read the OP again mate. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:17:00 - [108] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 15/06/2006 20:22:26 1. Some investors were refunded, some investors claim they were not. The refunds show no visible correlation with "protest" or "petitions" in this matter. I believe it has more to do with the type of wallet that was used to transfer the ISK then with forum popularity. 2. I dont like how some of the victims, including me, received duped ISK. It is, however, not my fault that i got those ISK, i never asked for them, i even sent them back to the scammer. The returned ISK were neither significant for me, nor did they influence any of my financial decisions. You have to keep in mind that there were other investors besides Dark Shikari and me however. I cannot tell wether CCP looked at the financial situations of everyone involved, and decided to leave this mess as it is, instead of making it even bigger. Because of the nature of the scam, there seem to have been at least 15b and up to 25b of "refunded" / duped ISK. Some of the investors could have based financial decisions on the refund - This could have left investors with negative wallets (the last time it happened, it made the character unable to play the game, since you need to pay a broker fee to sell something on market or escrow - all other solutions (direct trade etc) are not really aviable to everyone), or little to no funds and unable to honor promises. This is a punishment greatly beyond the scope of the scam. The key factor is that making victims suffer because of a clear GM mistake is wrong. I dont agree with the refund, and i cannot tell wether any of the investors would end up with negative wallets, or just 25,5b instead of 26b. Lets say that the real mistakes happened before. 3. I hope you take your time to read the rules-lawyering at the end of the first thread, and come to the same decision then me: it needs a major rework. The highlights are: Some rules state that scammers will be warned, suspended or banned. Another says that scams will not be refunded, unless they involve bugs, exploits or ... scams (???). I would guess that translation is involved in here, or carelessness. I dont hope its not made on purpose to have "jail-free" rules for everything and nothing to get out of situations like these. 4. The problem with allowing scams on forums is the same that the current escrow system faces: spam. I dont care about scams, but if 95% of all auctions or escrows are scams, it becomes cumbersome to engage in trade. This should be solved by splitting the sell orders forum in several divisions. Ask the community what they want (suggestions: IPOs, faction + officer gear, BPOs, service, other). Lock obvious and nonconstructive scam threads not for the act of scamming, but for the act of spamming.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:18:00 - [109] O man........... this basically means scammers win and you can't do a thing about it. So to truley make it big in EVE... 1) create a scammer. 2) make an alt. 3) scam people. how easy!
Shimpu	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:18:00 - [110] Good resolution. CCP for the win! Originally by: Seleene This is what happens when you eat the red M&M's
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:20:00 - [111] Originally by: Gully Smit O man........... this basically means scammers win and you can't do a thing about it. So to truley make it big in EVE... 1) create a scammer. 2) make an alt. 3) scam people. how easy! It has always been like that. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:25:00 - [112] Originally by: Avon Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Reia Nym So now the Sell Forum is going to be the new Escrow? What will be the point of the Sell forum if I have to wade through all the scams? There has been no change from what the rules were before SVE hit the fan. It will be no worse than it was then. Read the OP again mate. Before the SVE deal, the sell order rules were that only real value scams (characters, GTCs) were GM re-imbursable. Ingame item scams were forbidden from being posted, but GMs could not intervene. Now they are allowed admittedly (I had missed that in the OP, I assumed blantant, pathetic scam auctions would be locked as now), but pretty much pointless. Fake items sales are as pointless as before the change, GTC scams are impossible, so the only difference is that IPO scams will be allowed to stay open after everyone goes "OMG HE SCAMMED ME", after which no-one will invest and the only point is as a flamewar. Yeah, I was wrong, but I still believe it will be no worse than it was before
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:25:00 - [113] Great decision on all counts, most importantly Eve continues in the same spirit. The earlier reinbursement decision doesn't mess up those that are already relying on it. No messy retrospective scam petitions need to be solved. The scammer gets his rewards. Thank you CCP.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:26:00 - [114] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Gully Smit O man........... this basically means scammers win and you can't do a thing about it. So to truley make it big in EVE... 1) create a scammer. 2) make an alt. 3) scam people. how easy! It has always been like that. and investing in an alt IPO... honestly
lkuo	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:30:00 - [115] Edited by: lkuo on 15/06/2006 20:30:38 delete hit it twice
lkuo	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:30:00 - [116] What i wana know is: what was diffrent about this scam that made them re-imburse it in the first place. There have been plenty of ipo and other scams on the forums before why was this one out of all of them selected. It just doesn't add up to me. it shouts some sort of favoritism. maybie im wrong but the math just isn't there. either someone new came along and brought it up. or it hurt someone/friend of someone who had the ability to make the decisions. Agian maybie im wrong but thats what it says to me
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:35:00 - [117] Originally by: lkuo What i wana know is: what was diffrent about this scam that made them re-imburse it in the first place I'm pretty sure it most likely started with a GM ****up and went the wrong way from there, with mods bandwagonning and editing the sell forum rules after the event and the other victims being re-imbursed. It hasn't yet been explained yet, but I severely doubt it was intended to be the introduction of a new scam policy. It hasn't been explained yet and tbh, I doubt it will be now the issue has been resolved to the best of CCP's judgement. I could be totally wrong, we may (or may not) see.
Doppleganger	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:39:00 - [118] Its good you made it a win/win situation. NOT! Good call on changing the forum rules but bad bad call on refunding the isk to those scammed. I personally don't like scamming but it has been a part of this game since release and this is like the 1st time I have seen both sides come out smelling like roses. .
Level4	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:43:00 - [119] Kieron, you mentioned there is a council made out of players, who are debating important topics like fleet combat and other futur projects... Can we add stockmarket tools to the list of discussions ? Thankyou.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:46:00 - [120] Originally by: Level4 Kieron, you mentioned there is a council made out of players, who are debating important topics like fleet combat and other futur projects... Can we add stockmarket tools to the list of discussions ? Thankyou. Council of Stellar Management was going to be reformed, don't think it has been yet (could be wrong). Still, a proper eve stock market would be a welcome addition.
spurious signal	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:55:00 - [121] Edited by: spurious signal on 15/06/2006 20:56:13 This is the 3rd time I've tried to word a reply to this thread. At first I was going to lay into CCP and bemoan this reimbursement. I was going to make comments about respect and trust and how they're so easy to lose and hard to win. I was, in particular, going to make some unpleasant comments aimed at Dark Shikari. However, I've thought about it some more. At the end of the day the money involved here isn't important. It's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. Sure, not to most of us. DS says that the billions he lost is "5-6% of his assets", which is nice, we'd all like to be that rich, lovely, but that's not the point. The real currency here is respect and DS knows already that any that he had on these boards, in this game - and let's not fool ourselves here, these forums are a central part of the game, make no mistake - is already gone. My personal respect for CCP is now back where it started almost. Like many others here I am very glad that the decision regarding scams in the future was made and that the rules were clarified so well. But I disagree with the refunding of both parties, however, that's not important. What's now crucial is that CCP come up with some extremely good mechanisms that enable the existence of both the emergent gameplay seen in the stock exchange/IPO's AND allows the continuation of the pvp element attached to these. Both investors and scammers need a system that lets them co-exist, a system that creates dynamic tension between the two sides of the coin, that lets players succeed when they're skilled and fail when they're inept, whichever side of the game they decide to exercise their skills (or lack of) on. But please, CCP, keep these mechanisms within the game. Don't resort to deus ex machina solutions like GM reimbursement unless the situation genuinely merits it, and for gods sake stop listening only to the forum warriors - engage with ALL YOUR PLAYERS, not just the vocal minority.
Mathias Black	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:00:00 - [122] I guess I'll echo everyone and say I'm glad the rules were changed back, but not glad that the GM's friends got to keep their ISK. Personally I think all those reimbursed who claim to not care about the ISK and claim that they certainly weren't the ones who begged to the GMs should take all that money that they should have rightfully lost, and donate it to the alleged "good guy" IPOs that get all kinds of congrats on the forums but somehow weren't good enough for your 25 billion.
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:06:00 - [123] I dont understand why ccp makes this decision and then does not follow up completely on it, let the reimbursed keep their isk ? Preposterous, every financial action is logged, it should be easy to backtrack and take away the isk. Bad decision ccp, kind healers leave stinking wounds, as they say in my country.
Ulle	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:12:00 - [124] I'm seriously hoping there is a part III to this story ... scammer won, scammed didn't lose, but the entire stock market has been seriously gutted by leaving 100% of the risks on one side and 0% on another, so far from: Originally by: kieron We made what we feel is the best decision for the good of those involved and spirit of EVE. No mention of this problem from any dev yet. Zero risks is the new spirit of EVE ?
Vosi	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:21:00 - [125] Edited by: Vosi on 15/06/2006 21:23:56 Edited by: Vosi on 15/06/2006 21:21:45 Its good to see CCP have cleared things up for the benifit of EvE and made things very clear. I dont have problems with the people in this case getting the money back keeping it as CCP made the mistake so on this front they got lucky so long as its made very clear like it has that this was a slipup with CCP covering the bill. Besides if they are dumb enough to trust strangers you can be sure it wont be in their hands for too long The scammer got his money back and CCP have saved their reputation. Good ending thank god, normally these threads can herald the end of a game. Lets hope that this incedent re-affirms to CCP that we are 100% behind the harsh high penalty MMO which gives us all adrenaline kicks :)
Sovy Kurosei	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:22:00 - [126] Probably what I would have done in CCPs shoes. Glad to have the rules clarified, wish you could have acted on this sooner so you could have avoided duping ISK but oh well. ___________________
Iantine	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:24:00 - [127] I agree that the scam was done within the rules, and I never expected to get my money back (And I never did, btw. There were many people who never got refunded). And it's probably true that those refunded shouldn't get to keep their money, but I accept Kieron's reasoning that it isn't possible to undo. However, there are two objections that I have. One is that some investors were refunded and some weren't, which is to me a much worse injustice then anything done to the scammer/victims. I don't really care about getting my own money back (I luckily only lost a paltry 50 million, which might influence my decision). I just think that either no investors should get refunded, or all of them should. All of those refunded returning the money to Kieron would suit me fine here. The second point I have is that this shows the stock market really needs more protections for investors. Previously someone took my words to an absolute and said I was pushing for it to be impossible to lose money in the stock market, but they couldn't be more wrong. I'm not asking for protection from failures or scammers, just the ability of stockholders to protect their investment. Give the option for companies to require stock votes for things that could be used to loot the company, like purchases over escrow or more then 200% market value, giving all the company's cash to someone, etc. Without this the stock market is going to die due to the dozens of copycat scams SVE will spawn.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:26:00 - [128] Meh, weak. Idiots have been absolved of the responsibility for their actions. CCP has taken the easy route and smothered everyone with ISK to smooth ruffled feathers.
Pepperami	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:31:00 - [129] Originally by: Iantine I agree that the scam was done within the rules, and I never expected to get my money back (And I never did, btw. There were many people who never got refunded). And it's probably true that those refunded shouldn't get to keep their money, but I accept Kieron's reasoning that it isn't possible to undo. Well if that's really the case then those who have regained isk need it taken, or alternatively, those who have not recieved their isk need it. Some people getting isk back and others not is really unfair. [Art of War][- V -]
Xelios	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:35:00 - [130] I think this was a good way to handle it. The rules were not clear before, so the only fair thing to do is to compensate both sides and then clear up the rules for future situations like this. Some isk was duped but that's not a big deal, what's important is the rules are now clear and this won't happen again. _________________________________
Ulle	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:36:00 - [131] Originally by: Pepperami Some people getting isk back and others not is really unfair. Indeed, it should be all or none, or conspiracy theories will thrive on this for some big damage in the short term.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:39:00 - [132] In reply to the original post: As has been said, nice "pragmatic" decision. A flawed decision, but any decision would have had arguable flaws. The game needs "sting" tools for making scamming a more two sided affair.
Brannor McThife	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:42:00 - [133] Originally by: kieron ...If someone is offering a HAC BPO for 5M ISK, chances are it is a scam. Lies!! Auction of the Century!!! -G *Dulce bellum inexpertis...*
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:42:00 - [134] Originally by: Deja Thoris Meh, weak. Idiots have been absolved of the responsibility for their actions. CCP has taken the easy route and smothered everyone with ISK to smooth ruffled feathers. The rules are now right for the future, afaik. I can live with someone getting a bucket of ISK for that
Vorick	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:44:00 - [135] Originally by: Iantine I agree that the scam was done within the rules, and I never expected to get my money back (And I never did, btw. There were many people who never got refunded). And it's probably true that those refunded shouldn't get to keep their money, but I accept Kieron's reasoning that it isn't possible to undo. However, there are two objections that I have. One is that some investors were refunded and some weren't, which is to me a much worse injustice then anything done to the scammer/victims. I don't really care about getting my own money back (I luckily only lost a paltry 50 million, which might influence my decision). I just think that either no investors should get refunded, or all of them should. All of those refunded returning the money to Kieron would suit me fine here. The second point I have is that this shows the stock market really needs more protections for investors. Previously someone took my words to an absolute and said I was pushing for it to be impossible to lose money in the stock market, but they couldn't be more wrong. I'm not asking for protection from failures or scammers, just the ability of stockholders to protect their investment. Give the option for companies to require stock votes for things that could be used to loot the company, like purchases over escrow or more then 200% market value, giving all the company's cash to someone, etc. Without this the stock market is going to die due to the dozens of copycat scams SVE will spawn. Opps, especially considering the subject matter I should probably post with my main. This is it (and the one that lost the 50 mil)
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:45:00 - [136] A mistake was made, and it's negative effects have been reversed. I ain't too pleased about the result that lets the vics keep their cash. But at this stage I probably would have done the same myself. Taking it away again now would be pretty damn harsh. When evil and strange get together anything is possible Yeah it needs work, but it'll do for now.

kieron	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:53:00 - [137] If there are players, corporations or alliances that have not been reimbursed from direct involvement in this IPO scam, submit a petition. To those that are going out of their way to besmirch others in this thread for their involvement or lack thereof (you know who you are), or spreading around conspiracy theories about 'GM friends getting their money back', just stop. Disagree with the decision if you like, but leave the ranting, trolling and "OMG, CCP YOU $%(#" off the forums. The names of those involved in this did not enter the discussion at any time. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Macon Squaredealer	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:55:00 - [138] Overall a pretty good resolution CCP, and kudos for basically saying mistakes were made. Although I could quibble about allowing the scam victims to keep their reimbursements I wonÆt do so. ItÆs not their fault that they were erroneously reimbursed, and it would be a bit hard even by Eve standards to take their money away again even if they do deserve to lose it. You do need to clear up why some got their money and some didn't though. Hopefully now the rules pertaining to scamming are clear enough that GMÆs wonÆt have to interpret them. Unless it involves GTCÆs, character transfers, or other trades involving real money itÆs fair game. That seems clear enough. Lessons learned: 1) Never change the rules retroactively. 2) Never take measures against players for past actions that were within the rules that existed at that time. 3) Resist the urge to give yourself as much latitude as possible in the rules by using weasel words like ômaybeö. Provide clear and easily understandable/enforcable rules that are as black and white as possible. 4) Ensure the GMÆs understand that their mission is to make impartial decisions based on the rules, not interpret/change them to support what they want them to be. YouÆve done about as good of a job as can be expected to correct this mess. I honestly don't care what your scamming rules are as long as they are clear and consistently applied. Regards ___________________________________________ Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months.
Beringe	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:23:00 - [139] What was the scam? Anyone got a linky for those of us who are only 99% forum ****s? ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."* --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Kerushi	Posted - 2006.06.15 22:31:00 - [140] Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 22:34:31 Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 22:33:51 wait, forum scam wich are in the rules are getting refunded in the billions and the scammer keeps the money he scammed? in that case, why can`t the stuff wich i lost during a server bug not be returned with the person who got it for 0.0 also keep it? Kieron, tbh, this draws the line, i lost 1.9b as it couldn`t be proved and that guy had the stuff but now billions of isk are getting duplicated to an honest(but sucky) scam and not to a server bug, sorry but wtf IPO = risk, every one knows it ffs now i want my stuff in the last petition back aswell, kthx ________________ I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes lol thanks :-)
Doctor Octagon	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:03:00 - [141] Take the money back from the people who gambled with it, give it to the scammer. The solution chosen here is dead wrong. Glad im not reading the forums too much, cause everytime im here, the decisions made here are making me wondering what i am doing here still. Stop the kindergarden CCP. If you feel the scammer earned his isk and should have it back, the people backing him up should pay their debst and get it withdrawn. Kinda reminds me of the horrible decision with reimbursement on a patch date, when everyone who lost ships made bucketloads on insurance and modules. And maybe teach your GM's to take the evidence (isk) and keep it with them until decisions are final. And please people who gets their isk back, and are trying to justificate CCP's actions. Please stop the Cherade, its a shame about the whining from you in the first place, its a shame from CCP after, and its patetic listening to you trying to make it sound ok afterwards. Im trying to keep the faith in your staff here CCP, but you are sure making me struggle. One more nail in my EVE coffin.
Sosus Red	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:12:00 - [142] Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP. Sig must be under 24000 bytes - Cathath ([email protected])
Sha'Uri Dark	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:16:00 - [143] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Sangxianc That was good until this sentence: "The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement." They got scammed, fair and square. That's weak. Too much time has passed since the initial reimbursement to reverse it. Yes, I know there have been players with negative wallet balances in the past, but not of this same scope. Here are the options we had to work with: Punish the scammer for a legit scam and take away the ISK? Punish the scammed for a mistaken reimbursement and take away the ISK? Punish all involved and take the ISK out entirely? Let everyone keep their money? We made what we feel is the best decision based on the options available to us. They got scammed fair and square by your own admission, they shouldn't be allowed to keep the ISK. Anything less fails to "keep the spirit of EVE".
Kerushi	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:16:00 - [144] Originally by: Sosus Red Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP. same idea here, and was thinking to buy 1-2 more chars to strip mine ark... several ipo scams will solve that heh ________________ I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes lol thanks :-)
Kerushi	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:27:00 - [145] Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 23:28:16 Originally by: Sha'Uri Dark An idea: Why not split the 25B amongst those envolved, 1/2 to the scammer and the other 1/2 gets split amgonst the scammed. there is no compromise or they refund every one who got scammed by a player or by some ***ass bug(wich are enough of in game) edit, typo`s as usual ________________ I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes lol thanks :-)
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:27:00 - [146] Originally by: Sosus Red Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP. Is that the sound of one hand clapping? Scamming is a legitimate game play tactic but it is in violation of the EULA to convert ISK into $$$. You probably already knew that, but since you were being obtuse I thought I'd respond in kind.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:32:00 - [147] Originally by: Sosus Red Ok, so the scammer just made a lot of real life $$$. 25b = a couple G's. Maybe we should all scam, we can all be rich and quit our jobs and live off scamming isk, since it is sanctioned by CCP. If you have what it takes to be a scammer, be my guest.
Sha'Uri Dark	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:37:00 - [148] Originally by: Kerushi Edited by: Kerushi on 15/06/2006 23:28:16 Originally by: Sha'Uri Dark An idea: Why not split the 25B amongst those envolved, 1/2 to the scammer and the other 1/2 gets split amgonst the scammed. there is no compromise or they refund every one who got scammed by a player or by some ***ass bug(wich are enough of in game) edit, typo`s as usual The idea was to keep 25B from magicly being droped into the game. I'm one for they lost it fair and square and shoudln't be allowd to keep it.
Infinity Ziona	Posted - 2006.06.15 23:37:00 - [149] 25 billion is not a lot of money compared to how much is generated every day by complexes, missions, mining etc. The rules are clear now so theres no point in continuing to ***** about this any longer. Infinity Ziona
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.06.16 00:02:00 - [150] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 16/06/2006 00:04:49 Originally by: kieron Too much time has passed since the reimbursement, and to remove said ISK would have too large an impact on that portion of the community. I think players shouldd've had the isk taken away. Time nothing, they just don't have any 'right' to have that ISK. They were stupid, they should've paid. Risk vs reward, and all that.
Uuve Savisaalo	Posted - 2006.06.16 00:13:00 - [151] It takes a lot of fortitude for ccp to come out and reiterate its intent to steer clear of interferance of the sort. The fact that people were ultimately reimbursed is understandable given that time has passed, but the rules have been clarified for all and this goes as precedent. Well done, Kieron.
Barron IX	Posted - 2006.06.16 00:43:00 - [152] A game that actually encourages Scamming... BIOMASS 4TW
Berious	Posted - 2006.06.16 00:44:00 - [153] Thanks for the clarification. I understand why you ultimately gave everyone cash back in this case but more importantly I'm glad EVE's general policy of non-interference with this sort of thing has been restated.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.16 02:10:00 - [154] the self righteousness is entertaining! ccp messed up, that is why both side kept it. live with it - sheesh. __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Infinity Ziona	Posted - 2006.06.16 02:17:00 - [155] Originally by: Barron IX A game that actually encourages Scamming... BIOMASS 4TW So killing is okay but scamming is somehow bad???
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.06.16 02:21:00 - [156] basically, good decision...
Dust Angel	Posted - 2006.06.16 02:47:00 - [157] Time or not, wrongs must be right. Those with the 25 billion isk should have it taken away because its not right that they keep it. _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics? Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
Crux Australis	Posted - 2006.06.16 03:08:00 - [158] Originally by: kieron The players that were scammed will keep the ISK they received from the GM reimbursement. Too much time has passed since the reimbursement, and to remove said ISK would have too large an impact on that portion of the community. Lol, just lol. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Originally by: Frezik Detaurus isn't a person. It's a state of mind.
Truth Serum	Posted - 2006.06.16 03:19:00 - [159] Edited by: Truth Serum on 16/06/2006 03:24:31 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Avon Originally by: HippoKing edit: wait, you doubled the ISK involved? I don't like that. The victims lost it fair and square Still, i can understand the problems that would occur from removing it now. Don't like it though Actually, you are right. It isn't like people haven't ended up with negative wallets before. Yup, cop out. Not really. I think this is a fine solution: it keeps the precent proper for the future without going back on their decision. This is a very minor incident compared to the ramifications a precedent in either direction would have. such a hypocrit, lol So, you just are ok if CCP dumps 25B extra isk into the game so long as you get yours back. L-A-M-E
Mowz	Posted - 2006.06.16 03:50:00 - [160] Originally by: Truth Serum So, you just are ok if CCP dumps 25B extra isk into the game so long as you get yours back. I actually thought about the inflationary effect this might have and it's pretty negligible. 25bil is probably less than 0.1% of annual GDP, and should be more than washed out by other random fluctuations like loot table bugs or extended downtimes. Just because 25b sounds big to you doesn't mean it counts for much in the overall economy.
Michayel Lyon	Posted - 2006.06.16 04:15:00 - [161] Congratulations, CCP. You just killed the player-driven stock-market. Personally, I would suggest every player that has offered an IPO to take all ISK currently in their possession and make a run for it. Apparently, it's all "fair game" and "in the spirit of EVE". Oh, btw... With 25b ISK, you can buy about 250 months, or 20 years, worth of Game Time Cards (which is also perfectly legal). Doing this, you would save up to $3750. That is, of course, if EVE will still be around in 20 years...
Kuolematon	Posted - 2006.06.16 04:42:00 - [162] What happened? I have been kinda out of loop and haven't had much time to troll around here. Can anyone provide me link which caused this "scam"? And what did IPO(d) mean again? Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must."
Arlenik Emmanouelik	Posted - 2006.06.16 06:41:00 - [163] Could someone, for those of us who don't spend all day on the forums, please explain the new/old rules. IPO scams were allowed before, but now they aren't? IPO scams involving the forums are not allowed? And what is the deal with this dupe ISK? I've not read all these pages, and there is noway I'm going to. But I read a few replys and to me it's all confusing. Could someone clarify everything please?
Major Tarsis	Posted - 2006.06.16 06:52:00 - [164] I think this was the right decision CCP, although I would have to say you have just put 25 bil free isk into the economy. I'm sure it will cope with this influx but in my opinion the isk should have been taken off the investors. When this arguement came about they would have known that the returned investment would be under question. Only the verry narrow minded and sheltered individual would have thought 'hey free isk, even though its not been fully resolved yet I'll still spend it'. They should definately have their isk taken off them or else some of the investors will continue to petition for every mistake they make in this game. It seems to me that CCP dropped the ball on this with a idiotic GM decision and they have then taken the sensible and practical response apart from not correcting the problem 100%. If a player had 'exploited' isk out of the game and the same time frame had passed I would expect that the isk would have been removed from the accounts (along with all the other consequences) whether the account went into the negative or not. The bottom line good decision by CCP but they still just fell short of the line as far as the reimbursement went. MT
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 07:02:00 - [165] Quote: Personally, I would suggest every player that has offered an IPO to take all ISK currently in their possession and make a run for it. Apparently, it's all "fair game" and "in the spirit of EVE". Oh, btw... With 25b ISK, you can buy about 250 months, or 20 years, worth of Game Time Cards (which is also perfectly legal). Doing this, you would save up to $3750. That is, of course, if EVE will still be around in 20 years... This is the sad part of all this bull.... The people that have actually tried to ***** their noodles, and some are still trying, go look in MD, on this in the last fewx days got the middle finger from CCP. you didn't even adress this issue. You didn't even give us as much as a sweetener remark 'don't worry the tools in kali will perfectly deal with all the iusses that we read from you (yeah right). So I petitioned for my 2 bil refund. Out of spite.
Major Tarsis	Posted - 2006.06.16 07:14:00 - [166] Originally by: stingy CEO Quote: Personally, I would suggest every player that has offered an IPO to take all ISK currently in their possession and make a run for it. Apparently, it's all "fair game" and "in the spirit of EVE". Oh, btw... With 25b ISK, you can buy about 250 months, or 20 years, worth of Game Time Cards (which is also perfectly legal). Doing this, you would save up to $3750. That is, of course, if EVE will still be around in 20 years... This is the sad part of all this bull.... The people that have actually tried to *** their noodles, and some are still trying, go look in MD, on this in the last fewx days got the middle finger from CCP. you didn't even adress this issue.** You didn't even give us as much as a sweetener remark 'don't worry the tools in kali will perfectly deal with all the iusses that we read from you (yeah right). So I petitioned for my 2 bil refund. Out of spite. The issue was never the fact there is no ingame mechanics for IPOs. For me it was the GM intervention and rule changes after the event. The GMs should never have intervened and this could have been a scam/corp theft etc that did not matter it was the GM intervention and reimbursement when no wrong was done was the arguement. It was never about you not having in game tools to do IPOs in my opinion at least, others may see it differently. MT
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2006.06.16 07:17:00 - [167] Not sure which scam this thread is referring to, but as I recall it's EVE policy that scams are allowed, so whichever GM duped all that ISK to both or one party should be refreshed on the rules. Everyone has a different opinion on scamming, but it makes for a colorful universe. Generally though, a set of rules should be stuck to.. otherwise you'll wind up with carebear GMs banning scammers and hardcore GMs cheering them on. Mixed policy ends up screwing everyone.
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2006.06.16 07:22:00 - [168] oh and the investors should be banned for scamming a GM into breaking the rules. Yes the INVESTORS. 25 billion hurts all players and economy. the investors are a million times worse then any scammer ever. drain their wallets to 0 ISK and suspend them for a month so they learn not to manipulate GMs. and give the GM who gave that ISK a pep talk so that they know the rules before giving away 25 BILLION isk. Anything over 100 million ISK should be taken to your head GM for approval.
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.06.16 07:53:00 - [169] as we know CCP have lowered the importance of development of corp tools - share related tools and other things like divisional wallets and other corp tools Common CCP pick up the ball and improve non combat aspects of the game ie market - contracts - NPC trade good (adding dynamic volumes movement of orders around stations and those aspects)
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:29:00 - [170] Quote: The issue was never the fact there is no ingame mechanics for IPOs. For me it was the GM intervention and rule changes after the event. The GMs should never have intervened and this could have been a scam/corp theft etc that did not matter it was the GM intervention and reimbursement when no wrong was done was the arguement. It was never about you not having in game tools to do IPOs in my opinion at least, others may see it differently. I disagree, the reason the scam was so disgustingly simple - anyone naming it ' a well done scam' should stop watching so much TV and read a book or do something for the brain for a change- is that the system at which the investment market currently works is so fragile and easily exploitable. If there are tools to help the players self regulate, you can still scam away, but it would at least take skill and preparation, skill and preparataion, the reason why i endorse such pure RP bastards like GSHC. Without such easy scams, there would never have been such an outrage, and the GM wouldn't have made the mistake of the refund, the community wouldn't then have started spamming the forums, ajnd I wouldn't have wasted my time to point out to everyone that the reason this scam happened is the pont to adress if you want to improve / develop certain aspects of the game, instead of starting a ****ing contest on the forums.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:32:00 - [171] Originally by: Miss Overlord as we know CCP have lowered the importance of development of corp tools - share related tools and other things like divisional wallets and other corp tools Common CCP pick up the ball and improve non combat aspects of the game ie market - contracts - NPC trade good (adding dynamic volumes movement of orders around stations and those aspects) Have you actually read recetn devblogs Ollo ? Try it sometimes, saves you from posting random idiotic crap at least some of the time Contracts and corp improvements are being worked on right now, for release in Kali. Wether or not it will include a working share market system I wouldn't know, but I sincerely doubt it since it's way too hard to fix the gaping holes in the corporate share system. Old blog
Matthew	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:44:00 - [172] Originally by: Michayel Lyon Congratulations, CCP. You just killed the player-driven stock-market. Personally, I would suggest every player that has offered an IPO to take all ISK currently in their possession and make a run for it. Apparently, it's all "fair game" and "in the spirit of EVE". The current IPO system is something put in place by players. It was not designed, intended or in any way endorsed by the Devs. The system the players set up has always been based on trusting the person offering the IPO. This decision has not changed that. As to the situation in question, there are two elements to look at, this specific incident, and the ongoing policy. The ongoing policy I think is right - scamming and betrayal of trust has always been a part of Eve. That should not be changed just because a group of players set up to do something that falls foul of that. Yes, it would be nice if there was a proper system for doing IPO's built into the game. But until there is, we all have to recognise and accept the risks in the player-made system, and not expect the GM's to act as a sticking-plaster solution to the flaws in that system. As for this specific incident, mistakes were made which meant that an ideal solution to it was not possible. Whatever they did to correct it would have left significant numbers of people annoyed. As with most of these first-instance cases, an exception has been made to correct this instance as best they can, with the proper new rules carrying forward. The economic impact of the 25Bill one-off insertion will be minimal. It's not really a significant amount compared to the total isk inflow into the game. People are comparing stripping the reimbursed isk to stripping insurance when a ship is reimbursed, but although they may both leave the player with -ve isk, they are not the same situation at all. Removing the insurance payout is a known policy, and does not reduce the total worth of the player - the isk is replaced in-kind with the reimbursed ship. If you petition for a rembursement, you can and should avoid spending the insurance isk until the reimbursement has been decided. If a player ends up with -ve isk because of it, it's their own fault for requesting the exchange of insurance for a replacement ship, and then spending the insurance before the exchange happens. This is a completely different situation - They were given the isk directly by a GM, with no indication that it may not be due to them. As such it was completely reasonable of them to assume that they were properly due the isk, and that they could do with it as they pleased. Removing it would have punished the players for a GM mistake for which they were in no way responsible. Setting that precedent - that anything the GM returned or gave to you could be arbitrarily removed again at some unspecified point in the future through not fault of your own - would have been incredibly damaging. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Major Tarsis	Posted - 2006.06.16 08:45:00 - [173] Edited by: Major Tarsis on 16/06/2006 08:54:56 Originally by: stingy CEO Quote: The issue was never the fact there is no ingame mechanics for IPOs. For me it was the GM intervention and rule changes after the event. The GMs should never have intervened and this could have been a scam/corp theft etc that did not matter it was the GM intervention and reimbursement when no wrong was done was the arguement. It was never about you not having in game tools to do IPOs in my opinion at least, others may see it differently. I disagree, the reason the scam was so disgustingly simple - anyone naming it ' a well done scam' should stop watching so much TV and read a book or do something for the brain for a change- is that the system at which the investment market currently works is so fragile and easily exploitable. If there are tools to help the players self regulate, you can still scam away, but it would at least take skill and preparation, skill and preparataion, the reason why i endorse such pure RP bastards like GSHC. Without such easy scams, there would never have been such an outrage, and the GM wouldn't have made the mistake of the refund, the community wouldn't then have started spamming the forums, ajnd I wouldn't have wasted my time to point out to everyone that the reason this scam happened is the pont to adress if you want to improve / develop certain aspects of the game, instead of starting a **ing contest on the forums. I am not trying to start a ing competition but thanks for your input, however I made a previous post Linked Here summing up my thoughts on the matter. You are welcome to your opinion by all means I was just saying that in my eyes this discussion was about GM intervention, in a matter where they previously said as long as it did not break game mechanics it was valid, and the changing of the rules after the event happened. I have no interest in running producing IPO schemes and good luck to those that are. I would however ask you to look at this issue from outside your point of view for a minute and take account that other may have a different angle on this and that everything on this discussion** forum is not a slanging match. Many Thanks for taking the time to consider others. EDIT : No point argueing in this thread if you respond in the same vain as last time I will withold responding back, this is a not the place for that here. MT
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 09:25:00 - [174] Edited by: stingy CEO on 16/06/2006 09:30:51 Quote: You are welcome to your opinion by all means I was just saying that in my eyes this discussion was about GM intervention, in a matter where they previously said as long as it did not break game mechanics it was valid, and the changing of the rules after the event happened. I'm not attacking you on that point, you are absolutely right. The discussion in this thread HAS been about that topic. Mostly. What a waste of energy by the way, 18000 views and hundreds of posts all from people convinced of the obvious anyway : 'gods' shouldnt intervene in the game. Maybe i'm biased since I found the discussion the scam fueled about ingame tools to improve the market situation an interesting one. I then had to look at the market discussion froum being INVADED by disgruntled spammers that just inundated our constructive discussion, and then see the DEVS posting some sticky for all the spammers to have their word in. You have to admit, if you go through the previous thread stickied up here , alot of the written stuff was just BS from people that heard something about a refund and didn't take a single second to read up any background history about the events. I feel cheated by ccp - and others with me- our arguments have just been overscreamed by the masses, and nothing constructive has come out of it.
Scorpyn	Posted - 2006.06.16 09:38:00 - [175] Originally by: stingy CEO You have to admit, if you go through the previous thread stickied up here , alot of the written stuff was just BS from people that heard something about a refund and didn't take a single second to read up any background history about the events. It doesn't matter that much if you try to read up on it or not, it's obvious that the full story hasn't been told (and it'll probably never be) so people would still not be able to make a discussion with the full picture in mind.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.16 09:47:00 - [176] Originally by: stingy CEO I feel cheated by CCP I honestly can't believe you posted that. If you want to discuss IPOs, market structure & tools, and regulation, start a thread about it. However, you could not seriously expect a thread like to thrive under the shadow of something more serious, could you? This whole episode was clouded by a GM descision that put the fundamental nature of Eve in question. Until that was resolved there is no way that anything related would be discussed in an unbiased manner. If you want my input on how to "quick fix" an Eve stockmarket, I'll give it to you. Add a new type of corp for public ownership. As soon as a corp lists itself as public the mechanics for that corp change. A percentage of all corp revenue goes in to an asset fund, which is basically a corp wallet that no-one has direct access to. At fixed intervals the entire content of that fund is paid as a dividend to the share holders. The interval period, and the % of corp taxation put in to that fund is dictated by the shareholders through votes. If the corp liquidates, any ISK in that fund is automatically paid to shareholders. Creation of shares is also voted on by shareholders, as currently happen. Do all of that and you can give shares a distict value, and each corp can have a protected worth. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.06.16 09:47:00 - [177] My 2 penneth: I'm overall happy with this decision, nice one CCP. It keeps the spirit of eve strong, buyer beware etc. As to the extra 25bil added to the game, lets face it that's a small total considering the whole of the eve economy. If that was the price to pay to get this sorted out properly for the future, it's peanuts IMHO. We now know the score going forward, and that's great. Should better tools be provided in game for IPO's, stock markets and the like? Probably. Should there still be scope for people to make bad decisions and be scammed? Absolutely. In the meantime, people with trusted reputations will continue to do IPO's, trade shares and make ISK. And people who trust a days old character with oodles of isk will lose it. As how it should be ! Max
Victor Valka	Posted - 2006.06.16 09:48:00 - [178] Originally by: Verone I'm a little confused... The player who scammed got the ISK back, and the people who were scammed kept the reimbursed ISK? So, 25bn that was scammed, has now turned into 50bn that has been flooded into the ISK base on TQ? Yes! Free ISK and boobies for all! On a serious note. I am happy with the way CCP handled this situation.
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:07:00 - [179] Edited by: Alisha Lewarx on 16/06/2006 10:11:12 1) good to see that the tradition of the game was respected 2) about the reimbursement not being taken back, i don't think that's the issue. the issue is the GM who jumped to a conclusion (reimburse the whiners) for no valid reason at all. any pointing fingers should be directed at this person for "causing the problem". i know that GMs are "just human", but a policy about not making premature decisions to arbitrarily distribute billions of isk might be appropriate. 3) enough has been said about scamming isk on the forums i think, the final ruling is on the table, the whiners should stop whining now so the haters can stop hating. 4) for those of us who have already lost interest in beating the difference between facts and fiction into certain peoples heads, could we maybe get some official info on how the planned contract system might work in respect to trust transactions (ie when A gives something to B but B only gives the promise of something back)? PS: just a suggestion, might those investors in sve that got reimbursed want to donate that money to some kind of community event?
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:15:00 - [180] Originally by: Ariu Devine I HONESTLY can not believe you posted that! After you were one of the ones, as stingy put it, that invaded the Market Discussion forums to start blasting what happened. We DID have threads going about what can be done, BEFORE the first reimbursement. Then when that happened, we had to give up on talking about it because of every flame that was coming in, we could not constructively discuss anything at all. Link to my post in Market Discussions please? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:17:00 - [181] Originally by: Deja Thoris Meh, weak. Idiots have been absolved of the responsibility for their actions. CCP has taken the easy route and smothered everyone with ISK to smooth ruffled feathers. Qtf.. The idiots receiveid their money lol..
Sister 9	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:19:00 - [182] to everyone involved in the scam, the scammer and victim. you lucky lucky buggers
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:22:00 - [183] Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: Deja Thoris Meh, weak. Idiots have been absolved of the responsibility for their actions. CCP has taken the easy route and smothered everyone with ISK to smooth ruffled feathers. Qtf.. The idiots receiveid their money lol.. Yes, they did, this one time. And we know exacrly what'll happen in the future, which is more important than this single incident. Max
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:29:00 - [184] Edited by: Ariu Devine on 16/06/2006 10:35:02 Originally by: Avon Link to my post in Market Discussions please? Not sure what happened to my reply. I admit, I was wrong. You did not reply in the market forum, it was in the Sell forum to Min's wanting clarification. I have seen your name so many times the last few days, and the pain killers i'm on, have caused things to blur together. :p But the rest of my post does stand. -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:31:00 - [185] Edited by: stingy CEO on 16/06/2006 10:32:24 Quote: just a suggestion, might those investors in sve that got reimbursed want to donate that money to some kind of community event ? You can be sure as hell, that after hundreds of idiots coming into MD to spam and spam and spam, making any type of constructive discussion impossible and drowning excellent game develomment arguments in a sea of flames, I will spend every single isk of my refund to grief/pod as many of said idiots as possible. 2 bil : 10 vagabonds, i'm starting hunting soon (tm)
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:32:00 - [186] Edited by: Ariu Devine on 16/06/2006 10:35:55 /sigh Why am I still reading this. -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.16 10:43:00 - [187] Originally by: stingy CEO Edited by: stingy CEO on 16/06/2006 10:32:24 Quote: just a suggestion, might those investors in sve that got reimbursed want to donate that money to some kind of community event ? You can be sure as hell, that after hundreds of idiots coming into MD to spam and spam and spam, making any type of constructive discussion impossible and drowning excellent game develomment arguments in a sea of flames, I will spend every single isk of my refund to grief/pod as many of said idiots as possible. 2 bil : 10 vagabonds, i'm starting hunting soon (tm) The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.16 11:02:00 - [188] Edited by: Alisha Lewarx on 16/06/2006 11:02:37 stupid me, why should i assume it was possible that you would handle the fact, that you got very lucky due to an incompetent GM, with the appropriate responsibility... Originally by: stingy CEO You can be sure as hell, that after hundreds of idiots coming into MD to spam and spam and spam, making any type of constructive discussion impossible and drowning excellent game develomment arguments in a sea of flames, I will spend every single isk of my refund to grief/pod as many of said idiots as possible. 2 bil : 10 vagabonds, i'm starting hunting soon (tm)
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 11:09:00 - [189] Edited by: stingy CEO on 16/06/2006 11:12:31 Quote: that you got very lucky due to an incompetent GM, with the appropriate responsibility... he made a mistake, I don't give a crap about the isk, but if i'm getting it back anyway, i'm gonna have some fun with it, as I considered it lost, and I just don't feel like giving the eve 'community' anything benificial right now, k ? Community and devs didn't exactly do anything for me or listen to us did they ? Community preferred to whine and flame instead of doing something constructive didn't they? Yeah you are right, this has bittered me up alot, I'll still play EVE, but no more mr nice guy. podding R us.
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.16 11:31:00 - [190] Originally by: stingy CEO Community and devs didn't exactly do anything for me or listen to us did they ? Community preferred to whine and flame instead of doing something constructive didn't they? Like what? Like creating an IPO system out of nowhere, and putting in place in the blink of an eye? You expected that? You expected the community to feel sorry for you? To rush to your support because a game mechanic you want is not in place? I pity you. Oh, and if you are putting your ISK where your mouth is, I am docked in PR- in Delve. Feel free to pop by and pod me anytime. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 11:43:00 - [191] Edited by: stingy CEO on 16/06/2006 11:45:41 Quote: Like creating an IPO system out of nowhere, and putting in place in the blink of an eye? You always oversimplify things. Of course I didn't expect that. But nothing at all happened, and this was the perfect time to discuss it, and for Devs to aknowledge/ support the discussion and maybe give some imput themselves. Sucks. It's just tiring to try constructive things and get zero (0) reward from it in a game like this. Months ago I started up an IPO that would've been the beginning of an 'empire' (megalomania ftw), and benefit hundreds. I payed out incredbile dividends. I fought my war against hundreds of trolls and flamers and proved them all wrong. It got too heavy to call it a 'game' , and I gave up the idea. I refunded EVERYONE. I took a month break from the game. I come back, and something happens again that makes some great chance for some of us to fight a battle for further constructive approach to the game. Enriching it. And it all gets ignored and flamed to Death by short sighted people. I just don't have the fight really in me anymore. Wonder how guys like omber feel about it since they did SO much more. Podding is easier. Quote: Oh, and if you are putting your ISK where your mouth is, I am docked in PR- in Delve. Feel free to pop by and pod me anytime. How can I pod you if you are docked btw ? ^^ assuming I make it through the B(l)OB ?
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.16 11:46:00 - [192] Originally by: stingy CEO How can I pod you if you stay docked btw ? ^^ assuming I make it through the B(l)OB ? lol, I don't stay docked, I am just docked at the moment. Work 4tl. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 11:50:00 - [193] Quote: Work 4tl. same. but I have a long memory, and you aren't first on my list.
Matthew	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:06:00 - [194] Originally by: stingy CEO You always oversimplify things. Of course I didn't expect that. But nothing at all happened, and this was the perfect time to discuss it, and for Devs to aknowledge/ support the discussion and maybe give some imput themselves. Sucks. I would argue that this specific incident was exactly the wrong time to be discussing feature development. There were vested interests in terms of the incident's resolution and emotions were running strong on both sides. Such an atmosphere is not conducive to proper game design, or even proper debate. I'm sure the Devs all have opinions on this, but they would have been unable to voice them at this time, or comment at all on anything related to it, because that would have compromised the final decision on how to resolve this incident. The Devs wading into the debate at this point would have only served to inflame things futher. I'd suggest giving things a couple of weeks to calm down, by which time there may hopefully be a blog out about the planned improvements in kali, which can then serve as a solid, neutral base for constructive discussion. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Turboneger	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:13:00 - [195] who scammed who? ipo? initial public offering? i pick o'rama? i ***** organ? how did they scam?
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:19:00 - [196] Quote: I would argue that this specific incident was exactly the wrong time to be discussing feature development. There were vested interests in terms of the incident's resolution and emotions were running strong on both sides. Such an atmosphere is not conducive to proper game design, or even proper debate. This is where the 'you had to be there' comes into play. Reaction of alot of us less then 24 hrs after the scam was ice-cold. There were practically no people asking refunds. debate about game design were all over the place in market discussions. The refund hadn't happened yet it was THEN that all of a sudden some GM slips up, and it became a n 'OMGnodevintervention' matter. Basically the rabble rabble rabble from the community spoiled it. that's why I reacted to hostile to the suggestion of using my refund to fund some 'community event'. I agree with the rest of your post though, nothing to do but wait.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:20:00 - [197] I like the new reimbursement rules. They're so clear and easy to apply. When you remove the blabla, it boils down to: 'may be reimbursed at the discretion of a GM.' --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:24:00 - [198] Originally by: stingy CEO Quote: Work 4tl. same. but I have a long memory, and you aren't first on my list. How about me?
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:36:00 - [199] Originally by: stingy CEO Quote: Work 4tl. same. but I have a long memory, and you aren't first on my list. But I am on your list? Cool. I look forward to resolving this in space. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:38:00 - [200] Originally by: Tachy I like the new reimbursement rules. They're so clear and easy to apply. When you remove the blabla, it boils down to: 'may be reimbursed at the discretion of a GM.' wrong damn need to make a new sig...
Entity	Posted - 2006.06.16 12:59:00 - [201] Can't wait to see what forms the scamming will take on in the forums... Interesting times Got item?
DeODokktor	Posted - 2006.06.16 13:02:00 - [202] Hi, I have lost isk to scammers before.. Not sure how much it is but their scams were legit.. Anyhow.. Send me my few bil that I have lost as a result of scams in the past.. Oh yea, and I have bought a LOT of cap II's too (monopoly is like scam isnt it?) and zyd too.. hmm How about 500m more to me for that so say 3.5b also the production of isk like this is killing isk's value.. so can we put some inflation checks on this.. say 2%.. and it's beena long time since I got scamm'd so mayb 5% for me.. 3.675b sounds correct.. Have it there today please.. ------------------------- WTB Aurora S bpo - Evemail me in game.. Scammed by "Not Superman" Then go visit the link an
Pepperami	Posted - 2006.06.16 13:10:00 - [203] Well, there will be initially people trying it because scamming is now going to be fotm but anything you buy from forums will be escrowed or direct traded so you can check it correctly before buying, so sales shouldn't change in that respect. IPOs are also exactly the same as before, except people are explicitly told of a risk. Even if there was an ingame mechanic, there would still be a need for trust, and as very many aspects of eve tells you, trust is a weakness The only concern, is that the forum may initially get spammed a bit, but that should hopefully die down. [Art of War][- V -]
DeODokktor	Posted - 2006.06.16 13:15:00 - [204] Originally by: James Snowscoran It's a sensible solution. I'm not sure how great an impact on the EVE economy 25 billion extra ISK will have, but if it's deemeed necessary you could always just auction off a few luxury yachts or federation megas as a one-time ISK sink. yea, nice then the guys's who got duped isk, can buy some of the most rare ships in game... I am sure the current holders of rare items will love that idea. ------------------------- WTB Aurora S bpo - Evemail me in game.. Scammed by "Not Superman" Then go visit the link an
Brannor McThife	Posted - 2006.06.16 17:10:00 - [205] See below the email sent to the mods concerning the thread: HAC BPO ------------------------------------------------------ Hi there, Brannor McThife there. About this thread. Jacques response is... amusing at best. "Please only post serious auctions on here. " I'm sorry...but who is any Mod to determine what is serious? Is a non-scam serious? The thread was deliberately made ludicrous to show people that scams are now part of the sell forums, and that they need to be aware of the danger. To moderate that shows that ISD still hasn't come to grips with what has just happened. Does ISD believe they should moderate Escrow and determine what is "serious" and what is not? And then clear what Escrows they believe to be "not serious"? Scams are now allowed on the sell forums. CCP has stated that clearly with their recent ruling. Hence, I can try to sell 1 unit of Trit on the forums for 500 Billion Isk if I want to. If someone buys it, then so be it, that is not for the moderators to moderate. Thanks, -Brannor McThife [Making a point of the new "Scam-Friendly" System] ----------------------------------------------------- So, Mods can moderate what they think is absurd... even if it is a scam... surely the determining of that is up to the player (as Kieron stated) and NOT the mods? -G *Dulce bellum inexpertis...*
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.16 17:21:00 - [206] ^^ Your buyout WAS measured in gazillions
Summersnow	Posted - 2006.06.16 17:22:00 - [207] so eve fans what did we learn today? find a new way to cheat the system and everyone gets free isk...
Joskken Inx	Posted - 2006.06.16 18:27:00 - [208] I'm not quite understanding, what was the difference, and why were there reimbursements, for this scam and not say, Lunar Miner? I lost ISK to that just the same, but is it because it was "only" several million and still a damn grey area on how the forums are used to sell these scams? I'm reading and re-reading this entire post, but I'm not seeing how this current scam is taking precedance over previous "within the game mechanics" bull. -------------- Semper Fidelis
Karazaan	Posted - 2006.06.16 18:29:00 - [209] Here's what we have. -Someone did an honest scam. -The scam follow it's course... -A human error happen at the GM level. -The GMs are scammed by investors that invested with their alts that made so many trades/escrow that it's basically impossible to get it all back after a few days. An alt does'nt care if it's wallet is turned back down to minus 20 mil. The isk is simply not there anymore. Solution: A solution would be to implement a delay system to all the reimbursement (so that they cannot be depleted). That system would'nt be perfect but I feel that a delay of (let's say) 3 weeks would help a lot. How could it work: If a GM (or anybody else) decide you are entitled to a reimbursement, the function to do so would put the isk in a 'waiting list' that could be seen just beside the petition system (a link could exist betweent the two). So looking at that list could show you something like. Incident Reimbursement Reason Date Date Ammount 2006.05.20 2006.08.09 130'000'000 IPO Scam #345 2006.06.15 2006.07.06 78'000'000 Apoc lost to lag I think that would be good because there is NEVER a need for immediate reimbursement (unless you bet ALL your money which is stupid anyway). It would allow a quick fix in case of error because the isk would'nt have been decimated into the system right away. There could be different delay for different type of reimbursement. 1 week for the loss of a ship and 1 month for IPO and escrow. Btw changing the rules of the forum would'nt fix the problem because the local channel is also a part of the game and we will start to see in Jita: "I control the Jita New Phisics consortium. Invest 100 mil with me and I promess a nice 20 mil profit by week". How would you filter that?
Gabby05	Posted - 2006.06.16 18:43:00 - [210] Iv tried reading the 7 pages of this thread but its not explaining what exactly happened. Who was it that scammed and how did he do it, i understand he used the forums but thats about it. Theres others here just as clueless as me i aint the only one!
Ulle	Posted - 2006.06.16 18:51:00 - [211] They killed a evul rat called EVE Stock Market, and it dropped 25B isks in loot. This: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=351263 is the story about the bloody, dramatic battle
Joskken Inx	Posted - 2006.06.16 19:01:00 - [212] I've ascertained that this particular IPO was no different than many other pervious scams. I made mention of the Lunar Miner IPO scam for reason of comparison: apparently the amount scammed in this thread's scam was far more than usual. There also appears to be intervention, not before seen, by a GM to "resolve" this scam, and not everybody was refunded. Which led to accusations of favoritism and/or some other devious plottings. Unproven, from what I've read, but if there is reason to believe there are some still unrefunded (if that's the right term) there's reason to believe the mistake became compounded at that point by a GM. I don't care for my lost ISK from the previous LM incident, and never will I "invest" again. But this incident seems to show that the grey area of the forums-being-used-to-scam-people-not-allowed won't be grey for much longer. At least that's how I'm reading it. But it's a big can of worms here that needs to be closed back up. -------------- Semper Fidelis
Hoshi Utsukushi	Posted - 2006.06.16 20:08:00 - [213] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Scamming is a legitimate game play tactic but it is in violation of the EULA to convert ISK into $$$. You probably already knew that, but since you were being obtuse I thought I'd respond in kind. You can trade the isk for GTCs, and sell these GTCs... -_-
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.06.16 21:02:00 - [214] Originally by: Hoshi Utsukushi Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Scamming is a legitimate game play tactic but it is in violation of the EULA to convert ISK into $$$. You probably already knew that, but since you were being obtuse I thought I'd respond in kind. You can trade the isk for GTCs, and sell these GTCs... -_- Yes, but the inference, I drew from your previous statement, was that you supposed that the proven legitimacy of scamming mitigates real money trading. Under the present EULA, it does not.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2006.06.16 23:23:00 - [215] Any mediation where the thief gets his justly swindled share is a good one.
Kerushi	Posted - 2006.06.16 23:41:00 - [216] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Any mediation where the thief gets his justly swindled share is a good one. wich in this case is 25b... ________________ I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes lol thanks :-)
Sin Angel	Posted - 2006.06.17 03:17:00 - [217] Pathetic. Anyone else remember the 4s name incident? whats the betting ccp decision would change if someone made a jita protest again?(NO this is NOT a suggestion) weak decisions ftw -Sin
Rao Esek	Posted - 2006.06.17 03:29:00 - [218] Its unfortunate that CCP chose not to respect the players attempting to build and develop a new feature within EVE. Player events have always been a respected and valued part of the game. Yet, with the choices involved in this incident, this player event as had its strings cut, and will not be seen agian until it finds its way onto CCP's full schedule. A scam benefits one player by taking advantage of multitudes. Why we choose to favor the scammer and destroy an EVE player event that many could have enjoyed, is the issue I have.
Uuve Savisaalo	Posted - 2006.06.17 03:44:00 - [219] Originally by: Rao Esek Why we choose to favor the scammer and destroy an EVE player event that many could have enjoyed, is the issue I have. because it proclaims ccp in position/obligation to serve judge over player's vice, virtue and moral conduct -- something ccp has built their reputation amongst mmog developers on relegating to the community itself. The only unusual thing in this situation is that ccp first made a choice uncharacteristic of itself, then re-stated its original position and reimbursed the scammer.
Dano Sarum	Posted - 2006.06.17 08:51:00 - [220] Well, I understand CCP's decision (keep all the rich people happy) but I have to say, I think it was the wrong one. I honestly feel the GM's shouldnt have interveined or interfered at least so publically. People get scammed daily, from newbies to 3 year+ people. I don't see why the guys who have the highest earning potential have been protected by all of this. If the people who were caught in this werent so well known we all know that this would have purely been laughed at. I understand this is your "keep everyone happy" answer to everything, but the fact remains the rules you put in place weren't broken in this case, people just fell for a scam (on a large scale mind you) and now you've directly intervined, punished the guy, then taken it back and bla bla bla, well damn its been a lot of indesicion. In retrospect, the correct decison would have been to do nothing at all, why was a single GM taking any actions on this at all? The rules put in place weren't broken. I'm just a little annoyed really that this wouldn't have even been considered for a bunch of newbies or if it was just a few million isk, yet it would have caused the same ammount of personal whining. Congratulations to everyone who got their cash back, the rest of us have to deal with it if we get scammed / stolen from.
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.06.17 09:50:00 - [221] Edited by: Pesadel0 on 17/06/2006 09:54:21 Originally by: stingy CEO Edited by: stingy CEO on 16/06/2006 10:32:24 Quote: just a suggestion, might those investors in sve that got reimbursed want to donate that money to some kind of community event ? You can be sure as hell, that after hundreds of idiots coming into MD to spam and spam and spam, making any type of constructive discussion impossible and drowning excellent game develomment arguments in a sea of flames, I will spend every single isk of my refund to grief/pod as many of said idiots as possible. 2 bil : 10 vagabonds, i'm starting hunting soon (tm) Lol... What did you espect from the community,that we let this one incident slide and destroy the essence of eve? Mate get real ,you were scammed and you received the money back ,you made a mistake that was rectified by the GM's . Quote: Yes, they did, this one time. And we know exacrly what'll happen in the future, which is more important than this single incident. Yup maybe your rigth max
Ricdic	Posted - 2006.06.17 10:21:00 - [222] Well, talk about a timebomb. I personally didn't invest in this IPO, but I was awfully close to doing so. I think that we need to get past the "YOU GUYS SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN REFUNDED 11!" and look to the future. What's done is done. At the very least we can say that the poor tools available to players in the corporate scene are horribly inefficient in the grand scheme of things. If this scam, and subsequent GM action that was required is enough to get the contract system into the game (was scheduled for Kali initially), then this is a victory in itself. People flaming Dark Shikari and Stingy CEO is totally unacceptable. I clearly remember them (and virtually every other scammee) saying that they don't care about the cash, as long as the rules are clearly defined, and a system is put into place allowing some form of intervention for scamm'ees. The biggest issue, is that there is no way to obtain revenge on a person who scams you. Person A, a loyal player of eve for 2 years starts an IPO, with a quite nice business plan. Reputation is everything in Eve. The scammer decided to leveridge his reputation for the trust of the players. There is nothing wrong with this. But what is stopping said scammer from walking away with the 25 billion isk, renaming his character and selling it, and then choosing another 25m SP character to purchase off the WTS forums? How are those who have lost huge amounts of funds able to exact revenge or try to recover their losses if this happens? How long would the IPO scene last if it was over-run with people willing to sacrifice their reputations for that 25 billion isk injection, and how long before the macro miners find how lucrative it is and jump into the scene? The problem is not that people were scammed at all. The problem is that there are no tools in place to prevent/limit/exact justice on this. As i said, at the very least, I hope that this brings CCP to release tools enabling IPO's (while still having risk) to be run in-game correctly. This may include locked corp funds that are only accessible by a corp vote / etc, and a whole lot of other corporate tools that CCP have not bothered implementing over the past 6 months, as they were too busy with the combat pvp guys (no surprises here) ------------------------------------------ Dreadnought Production INC is recruiting Join DPI Channel Or Visit (IGB) http://www.mmorpg-online.net/intro.html
Kahor	Posted - 2006.06.17 11:45:00 - [223] The only issue in this is if the scammer just buy another main and can't be held responsible for his actions anymore. I think that is the real issue. (and by that i mean there should be something done about that particuliar issue) The IPO system can be worked on, but at the end it's just in who/what you trust, ISS been there long time and succesful, so it's trusted, a few other people I would trust as well, not just a total stranger. An eye for an eye make a whole world blind.
Matthew	Posted - 2006.06.17 20:50:00 - [224] Originally by: Rao Esek Its unfortunate that CCP chose not to respect the players attempting to build and develop a new feature within EVE. Player events have always been a respected and valued part of the game. Yet, with the choices involved in this incident, this player event as had its strings cut, and will not be seen agian until it finds its way onto CCP's full schedule. Player events and organisations have only ever been supported when they support or further the intended design of the game as a whole. A player deveopment, no-matter how good it may seem, will never be supported if it requires compromising the existing ad intended game design. The reliance on trust has always been a known weakness of the player-organised system, and one that the organising players accepted when they started it. Just because someone has shown just how big a weakness that reliance on trust is, is not a good reason for CCP to go against the spirit of the game and plug that weakness for you by making the GM's enforcers of trust. While I fully support the development of a proper, balanced system to allow stock markets to operate, there is no way that such a feature could have been bought in as a resolution to this incident. As such, this is the best option they could have gone for to cover the time until they can introduce contracts etc. Originally by: Sin Angel Anyone else remember the 4s name incident? whats the betting ccp decision would change if someone made a jita protest again?(NO this is NOT a suggestion) The reversal of the 4S decision had nothing to do with the protest in jita - the individuals involved in that were not responsible for the decision's reversal, and were punished to the full extent that their actions deserved. The 4S decision was modified as a result of well-structured and comprehensive counter-argument and evidence presented to CCP that made it clear that their original decision was wrong. If you think you can put together such an argument, by all means go ahead. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
PATT0N	Posted - 2006.06.18 01:18:00 - [225] Quote: First off, the rules for the Sell forum are going to be amended. Since the forums are a mechanic of the game, but blur the lines, it is permissible to post scams with the following limitations: Scams involving the transaction of real world currency are not permitted. This includes character transfers, GTCs for ISK, and other services that involve the exchange of goods or services for real world currency. What a ******* joke.
G'veth	Posted - 2006.06.18 03:10:00 - [226] So in an attempt to emulate real life in some way CCP has said that a scam was legitimate and that the buyers should have performed due diligence. I work for a large accountancy firm regularly involved in performing due diligence in a variety of transactions - although not my specific area of expertise. Normally the buyer will engage us to assess the validity of the claims made by the seller and provide an opinion on the business or the product as a whole. As a firm we stand to get sued if we make a flawed assessment, however in the case where we ourselves were extensively lied to and were presented with falsified evidence we can pass the buck along. You see in real life there are these things called laws, they prevent people from stealing and defrauding in many ways. For example the directors of the selling company and the agents of it have a legal duty to tell the truth, they can conceal things if they like and are able but if they are found to have lied on a point of fact that formed a basis of the opinion that is fraudulent and illegal. I would rather suspect that the seller in this case quite simply lied in some way and in real life I have little doubt he would either be prosecuted under criminal law (CCP invoked action, bans and redistribution of misappropriated assets) or civil law (User petitions on the specific lies leading to some level of reimbursement) Another point is corp theft: In real life if I steal 10 computers from my office I'll quite likely find I get a visit from the police. My company on the other hand will make a claim on its insurance policy (should it care enough about the loss of 10 computers) and get a substantial amount of its loss back. I get punished, my company gets refunded in part. Its all well and good allowing thievery and scamming as an ingame mechanic but there is a huge gaping hole where law and insurance and all those other crappy boring RL things go which means one random dude can't just come along and steal everything you have. I've never been the victim of an IPO scam - or indeed ever participated in an IPO, I foresaw this long ago - my corp has never been the victim of a significant corp theft. I pity the people who are foolish enough to fall foul of these things but CCP can't claim any of this is a valid game mechanic till valid game mechanisms are introduced to counter or mitigate it. I'd hope CCP has also taken appropriate legal advice on some of these issues, I don't know the circumstances of the IPO scam but I'd think there would be some potential for the losing party to consider this a real life loss (even despite the fact that the EULA states all ingame assets are CCP Property) and could were they sufficiently interested pursue a real life legal case - except it would be against CCP rather than the scammer. Probably corp thefts and the like are a greyer area. Law is not a favourite area of mine though. I think CCP are great and I'd hate to see them in trouble because they think its fun to let people steal - at best its completely immoral to take that stance. Every time I hear publicly of your (lack of) reaction to such scams as this it hurts that respect and love. I'm sure were there real life employees, customers, insurers and shareholders to take similar views on stealing life wouldn't be so fun for CCP. Oh noes, Mr Policeman TomB just stole Tranquility, help us all. Did you give him the keys? Well of course he's a Dev he needs access to TQ. Tough luck then, we're not going to investigate further. Mr insurance man help me out. No, your policy expired 2 months ago but since you've not tried to speak to me since I thought I'd not warn you. Mr Shareholder can I have some more money to buy a new TQ. No, the scam was legitimate we aren't going to assist, time to work your way up from scratch again.
Ricdic	Posted - 2006.06.18 04:22:00 - [227] Your post has merit, however the RL analogy will likely not go down well here. The main part of your post that I find true and correct in this instance has been quoted below. Originally by: G'veth I pity the people who are foolish enough to fall foul of these things but CCP can't claim any of this is a valid game mechanic till valid game mechanisms are introduced to counter or mitigate it. I think the above part I have quoted is 100% correct, and I would say this is more than likely the reason that CCP handled things the way they did. I have been saying the same thing, except not in a way as understandable as you in the above quote. Here's hopeing that the contracts system will be fast-tracked, or corporate tools put into the game to add the above mentioned missing game mechanices. ------------------------------------------ Dreadnought Production INC is recruiting Join DPI Channel Or Visit (IGB) http://www.mmorpg-online.net/intro.html
Avon	Posted - 2006.06.18 07:11:00 - [228] Originally by: G'veth So in an attempt to emulate real life in some way CCP has said that a scam was legitimate and that the buyers should have performed due diligence. I work for a large accountancy firm regularly involved in performing due diligence in a variety of transactions - although not my specific area of expertise. Normally the buyer will engage us to assess the validity of the claims made by the seller and provide an opinion on the business or the product as a whole. As a firm we stand to get sued if we make a flawed assessment, however in the case where we ourselves were extensively lied to and were presented with falsified evidence we can pass the buck along. You see in real life there are these things called laws, they prevent people from stealing and defrauding in many ways. For example the directors of the selling company and the agents of it have a legal duty to tell the truth, they can conceal things if they like and are able but if they are found to have lied on a point of fact that formed a basis of the opinion that is fraudulent and illegal. I would rather suspect that the seller in this case quite simply lied in some way and in real life I have little doubt he would either be prosecuted under criminal law (CCP invoked action, bans and redistribution of misappropriated assets) or civil law (User petitions on the specific lies leading to some level of reimbursement) Another point is corp theft: In real life if I steal 10 computers from my office I'll quite likely find I get a visit from the police. My company on the other hand will make a claim on its insurance policy (should it care enough about the loss of 10 computers) and get a substantial amount of its loss back. I get punished, my company gets refunded in part. Its all well and good allowing thievery and scamming as an ingame mechanic but there is a huge gaping hole where law and insurance and all those other crappy boring RL things go which means one random dude can't just come along and steal everything you have. I've never been the victim of an IPO scam - or indeed ever participated in an IPO, I foresaw this long ago - my corp has never been the victim of a significant corp theft. I pity the people who are foolish enough to fall foul of these things but CCP can't claim any of this is a valid game mechanic till valid game mechanisms are introduced to counter or mitigate it. I'd hope CCP has also taken appropriate legal advice on some of these issues, I don't know the circumstances of the IPO scam but I'd think there would be some potential for the losing party to consider this a real life loss (even despite the fact that the EULA states all ingame assets are CCP Property) and could were they sufficiently interested pursue a real life legal case - except it would be against CCP rather than the scammer. Probably corp thefts and the like are a greyer area. Law is not a favourite area of mine though. I think CCP are great and I'd hate to see them in trouble because they think its fun to let people steal - at best its completely immoral to take that stance. Every time I hear publicly of your (lack of) reaction to such scams as this it hurts that respect and love. I'm sure were there real life employees, customers, insurers and shareholders to take similar views on stealing life wouldn't be so fun for CCP. Oh noes, Mr Policeman TomB just stole Tranquility, help us all. Did you give him the keys? Well of course he's a Dev he needs access to TQ. Tough luck then, we're not going to investigate further. Mr insurance man help me out. No, your policy expired 2 months ago but since you've not tried to speak to me since I thought I'd not warn you. Mr Shareholder can I have some more money to buy a new TQ. No, the scam was legitimate we aren't going to assist, time to work your way up from scratch again. This post deserves a prize. Most idiotic and clueless post on the forums, evah! IT IS A GAME! The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Ricdic	Posted - 2006.06.18 07:48:00 - [229] Edited by: Ricdic on 18/06/2006 07:50:42 Originally by: Avon As to all the lawyers and stuff, just don't go there. The day that a court gives ownership of a virtual item to a player is the day MMOGs die. I believe this has already happened in a few cases, but don't ask me to find them. Also, the part of his post that I quoted does hold merit. The rest of his post wasn't necessary as you can't accurately compare RL to a game like Eve. And Avon, stop being a big meanie ------------------------------------------ Dreadnought Production INC is recruiting Join DPI Channel Or Visit (IGB) http://www.mmorpg-online.net/intro.html
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.06.18 08:05:00 - [230] An Example of how things currently stand with regards to virtual property. MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
spurious signal	Posted - 2006.06.18 08:19:00 - [231] Only solution to the "buying a new main" problem I can see is to end all character sales and transfers. The only other option is to end the entire alt system. Make all names of all characters that have ever been on an account visible, but that wouldn't stop a scammer just getting another account and then buying a new main and transferring it to the new, clean account. Character transfers allow scammers to avoid all consequences of their actions and thus the risk vs reward paradigm of EVE is broken.
spurious signal	Posted - 2006.06.18 08:21:00 - [232] Oh, and un-stickying this after only 3 days seems a bit premature to me. CCP hoping this will drop out of sight and be forgotten eh? I know I won't forget it, it's tainted the way I see CCP and those involved forever.
PriceCheckMax	Posted - 2006.06.18 09:48:00 - [233] Anyone cares to explain what the 4S name incident was? Anyone has the link to the scam thread(the one that is being discussed here)?
Dano Sarum	Posted - 2006.06.18 10:06:00 - [234] Thb i dont blame CCP now, they dont have a clue really what to do. I blame the GM who refunded all the cash and got involved, I mean seriously, shouldnt issues THAT big be passed up to a senior GM to be handled IF a GM thinks he should get involved? Tbh no matter what they do now they're screwed, even if they go back, take the 25b away from all the people who whined whilst 90% of the community will agree with it, a few will cry like hell "omg make your mind up". Meh, lock the thread allready and hope everyone forgets real quick.
Helmut 314	Posted - 2006.06.18 10:43:00 - [235] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Michayel Lyon Congratulations, CCP. You just killed the player-driven stock-market. Personally, I would suggest every player that has offered an IPO to take all ISK currently in their possession and make a run for it. Apparently, it's all "fair game" and "in the spirit of EVE". The current IPO system is something put in place by players. It was not designed, intended or in any way endorsed by the Devs. The system the players set up has always been based on trusting the person offering the IPO. This decision has not changed that. As to the situation in question, there are two elements to look at, this specific incident, and the ongoing policy. The ongoing policy I think is right - scamming and betrayal of trust has always been a part of Eve. That should not be changed just because a group of players set up to do something that falls foul of that. Yes, it would be nice if there was a proper system for doing IPO's built into the game. But until there is, we all have to recognise and accept the risks in the player-made system, and not expect the GM's to act as a sticking-plaster solution to the flaws in that system. As for this specific incident, mistakes were made which meant that an ideal solution to it was not possible. Whatever they did to correct it would have left significant numbers of people annoyed. As with most of these first-instance cases, an exception has been made to correct this instance as best they can, with the proper new rules carrying forward. The economic impact of the 25Bill one-off insertion will be minimal. It's not really a significant amount compared to the total isk inflow into the game. People are comparing stripping the reimbursed isk to stripping insurance when a ship is reimbursed, but although they may both leave the player with -ve isk, they are not the same situation at all. Removing the insurance payout is a known policy, and does not reduce the total worth of the player - the isk is replaced in-kind with the reimbursed ship. If you petition for a rembursement, you can and should avoid spending the insurance isk until the reimbursement has been decided. If a player ends up with -ve isk because of it, it's their own fault for requesting the exchange of insurance for a replacement ship, and then spending the insurance before the exchange happens. This is a completely different situation - They were given the isk directly by a GM, with no indication that it may not be due to them. As such it was completely reasonable of them to assume that they were properly due the isk, and that they could do with it as they pleased. Removing it would have punished the players for a GM mistake for which they were in no way responsible. Setting that precedent - that anything the GM returned or gave to you could be arbitrarily removed again at some unspecified point in the future through not fault of your own - would have been incredibly damaging. __________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.06.18 10:56:00 - [236] What a***** up. The gm responsible should be sacked.
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2006.06.18 10:58:00 - [237] This is really the best solution to the problem. I am suprised that anyone was reimbursed to begin with though. One of the greatest things about EVE has always been that you can do anything you want, include scam people. Being creative/daring enough to pull it off has always been what EVE is about and I'm happy to see CCP stay true to that. IMO the people that got scammed shouldn't have their ISK back because it got scammed within the game rules but as kieron said too much time had passed. Hopefully this sets a precedent and this doesn't happen with the next big scam. Just imagine if Mirial had her BPOs and implants back o_O The subscriber base for EVE would probably be much smaller. ---------- <Kayosoni> I'm actually normal
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.18 11:37:00 - [238] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 18/06/2006 11:45:46 The day you can sue for scamming fake money is the day you can sue for fake murder, theft and random destruction of property. There will not be too many things left to do in eve. What is even more funny is that while country A might legalize RMT and offer legal protection, country B might not, or the other way around. So if you get scammed by someone from A - though luck - the court will laugh at you. Scammed by a resident from B? He will rot in prison and you get your stuff back. In eve we already have police. Hint: your ship has high slots. Better ways to handle alts and unaccountability in general would not hurt - but no GMs please. You see what happened after one of the made a mistake. Eve is about the players, not about some fake moral standards that dont work in Real life. It is very similar to RL, as the police might persecute joe noone, the small criminal, but jim the vice president might be something entirely different. And of course, sometimes the criminals form a gang, call it "government" and scam the living hell out of everyone until they get replaced by another gang.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.18 12:12:00 - [239] Edited by: HippoKing on 18/06/2006 12:12:34 Originally by: Avon This is not 21st Century Earth. This is a game where people get in to eggs full of goo, command spaceships to blow up other spaceships, fly around faster than light (and still moaning travel takes too long), mine asteroids in space with laser guns, and 1001 other things that would get you arrested or institutionalized if you confessed to it today. With all that in mind, you want us to consider how your business works today? As to all the lawyers and stuff, just don't go there. The day that a court gives ownership of a virtual item to a player is the day MMOGs die (well, any that involve complex human interaction .. and what is the point of one that doesn't?) What do you really want? You really need to learn to seperate reality from fantasy, ASAP. +10 forum points, the donut of your choice, and a cup of coffee on the house
Jin Entres	Posted - 2006.06.18 13:58:00 - [240] I am very content in knowing that CCP stays the course. The scammed should not have been refunded in the first place, but it was a mistake on CCP's part and as such I can live with the course of action. P.S. I would love to see tools for market (and escrow) restrictions based on standings. ---
RangerXT	Posted - 2006.06.19 02:06:00 - [241] I hope atleast trial accounts are forbidden from scamming.
Kuolematon	Posted - 2006.06.19 07:41:00 - [242] Originally by: Avon .. I am docked in PR- in Delve .. You NPC ***h! Leave those poor Blood Raiders alone! Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must.**"
Brannor McThife	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:45:00 - [243] Well, my problem with the whole issue, is that I believe the Sell Forums are now going to be "flooded" with false sales... Like with Escrow, you're going to sit and waste time going through all the auctions/services and try decide if anything is legit. What I really dislike about EvE, is what makes it so unique... that it provides protection for the scammers, the Jita-Hauler-Ganker, the "evildoers" of the universe, because they can just hide behind a noob corp or alts. There is simply no recourse for those that are "griefed" in such ways. And CCP can just sit back and say "Hey, let the community police itself". Well, we cannot. If people transfer ISK, we cannot trace that. If people gank haulers and then sit in a NPC corp, you cannot do anything meaningful about it. CCP needs to allow people the ability to "work for Concorde" and police Empire... give us the ability to be in Concorde and legally hunt "evil" people. Yes, you may get corrupt "cops", but doesn't that just add to the EvE way of doing things? -G *Dulce bellum inexpertis...*

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