| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Crellion
   |
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:00:00 -
[1]
DPS = same (I think more or less since wolf has double dmg bonus)
range = Wolf wins easy
speed = Wolf wins easy
tank = same more or less (?)
cap use = wolf wins (shrugs nossing off easyier)
So I would invite math pros to correct me but if my premise is right... can this be allowed in a patch thats supposed to promote balance???
Jaguar fix: check
Hawk fix: check
Vengeance fix: check
Ishkur fix: No its fine
Harpy, Enyo, Retribution no need for fix. Wolf needed this????
Meh, I say mattari forum campaigners abducted Tux and replaced him with an alien...
|
Jenny Spitfire
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:02:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 18/06/2006 20:02:39
/me thinks slaves need more flogging.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT!
 Quote:
Tier 3 Minmatar BS needs Target Painting for bonuses.
|
Imode
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:03:00 -
[3]
It depends which AF you consider the top tier for Gallente.
Most consider the Enyo because it's bristling with weapon hi-slots, but the Ishkur is widely considered to be superior to the Enyo.
I have no idea how it will come out, but try comparing the Wolf to an Ishkur.
____________________________
|
Foulis
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:03:00 -
[4]
the thing about the wolf is that unlike the other AFs it has HUGE resistance holes.
----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies
|
Benglada
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:06:00 -
[5]
Wolf doesent have a double damage bonus, its a misprint.
---------------------------
Originally by: Wrangler
Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote.. 
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:13:00 -
[6]
All replies so far valid in their own right but as to the heart of the matter they are rather tralala.
Come on Sarmaul give me a post explain the inexplicable pls  (or better yet Tux)
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 20:17:45
Originally by: Benglada
Wolf doesent have a double damage bonus, its a misprint.
he means 5% for frigate and 5% for assault frigate (will be in with the next patch).
edit: gimmie a sec, I'm working on it :)
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 20:17:45
Originally by: Benglada
Wolf doesent have a double damage bonus, its a misprint.
he means 5% for frigate and 5% for assault frigate (will be in with the next patch).
edit: gimmie a sec, I'm working on it :)
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:26:00 -
[9]
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Foulis
the thing about the wolf is that unlike the other AFs it has HUGE resistance holes.
I just noticed this reply
Like huge comared to the 0% EM resist that Caldari frigs get or the 10% expl resist that gallente frigs have?????
Comic relief
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
but sarmaul neither has a web... and the Wolf is faster... the fight will take place at 5-10km so the Enyo will die having done negligable damage surely?
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 18/06/2006 20:30:22
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Foulis
the thing about the wolf is that unlike the other AFs it has HUGE resistance holes.
I just noticed this reply
Like huge comared to the 0% EM resist that Caldari frigs get or the 10% expl resist that gallente frigs have?????
Comic relief
No, like it's an armour tanker and has 2 resists under 60%, something that no other assault frig has to deal with. Caldari assault frigs only need to patch one resistance (EM) - the other 3 are >= 60%. Amarr only need to patch thermal and gallente only need explosive. The wolf needs both kinetic and explosive.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Crellion
DPS = same (I think more or less since wolf has double dmg bonus)
range = Wolf wins easy
speed = Wolf wins easy
tank = same more or less (?)
cap use = wolf wins (shrugs nossing off easyier)
So I would invite math pros to correct me but if my premise is right... can this be allowed in a patch thats supposed to promote balance???
DPS = i'll let sarmaul do the numbers he is better with that 
range = agree ac wolf wins with barrage, the enyo isnt entirely designed as blasterboat tough, you could even say it leans more to rails but thats imo
speed = wolf wins (as it should be , i mean its minmatars mqain feature)
tank = enyo has way better tank, only needs to fill 1 gap instead of minnie with 2 gaps
cap use = enyo has 25% more base cap than wolf with same recharge rate, i think that balances things fine
i see no balance problem here
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Crellion
but sarmaul neither has a web... and the Wolf is faster... the fight will take place at 5-10km so the Enyo will die having done negligable damage surely?
Yes, but seeing as the majority of wolves have a plate fitted it lowers their MWD speed and gives them poorer agility.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Crellion
but sarmaul neither has a web... and the Wolf is faster... the fight will take place at 5-10km so the Enyo will die having done negligable damage surely?
Yes, but seeing as the majority of wolves have a plate fitted it lowers their MWD speed and gives them poorer agility.
Still faster than an Enyo on Red bull...
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
Caldaris "patch" it to 50% ? Oh come on.... be fair...
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:39:00 -
[17]
Had another look at the items DB.
Apparently they are made for shield tanking like the Vaga whic doesnt work well with the Wolf's mids. Agreed. Still he d be silly times 10 to lose a 1v1 with Enyo or (as far as I can see) any other frig... Surely you can tank long enough to kill an Ishkur's drones... even ceptors do it
I wonder if a Hawk with rockets and shield tank can kill you... perhaps.
Still the Enyo is supposed to be the Deimos to the Wolf's Munnin so the Enyo should also have a 2x DPS bonus (so that if it uses mwd and you use ab it has a chance to win, like the Deimos). As things stand... I think it is the one AF more borked by the changes.
Be that as it may, I still feel all AFs are a joke for pvp so... meh
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Sarmaul
Wolf vs Enyo - assumes extra 25% damage bonus for the wolf.
They can fit similar setups (4 guns, nos, mwd, scram, rep, damage mod, hardener + something else). The wolf get the advantage of fitting a fat plate, while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
If the Wolf fits to specifically counter gallente frigs (generally the only ones that can take it down besides other minny ones) by fitting a passive kinetic hardener my money would be on the wolf. If not, it's 50/50. If the wolf pilot is dumb enough to let the drone live there's really no competition.
Caldaris "patch" it to 50% ? Oh come on.... be fair...
I'm on about the holes that need to be patched, not their final resistances. Almost none of the assault frigates have the cap to run active hardeners so they need to use passive ones. Caldari end up with:
Amarr: 60%, 80%, 62%, 65% (armour, energized thermic II)
Caldari: 47%, 60%, 70%, 80% (shield, magnetic scattering II)
Gallente: 60%, 52%, 84%, 67% (armor, energized reactive II)
Minmatar: 92.5%, 52.19%, 60%, 67.5% (armor, energized magnetic II AND energized reactive II)
2 hardeners needed to get 3+ resists >= 60%, something none of the other assault frigs need to do. Amarr assaults get every resistance >= 60% with just one hardener.
Make Khanid Useful! |
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Crellion
Had another look at the items DB.
Apparently they are made for shield tanking like the Vaga whic doesnt work well with the Wolf's mids. Agreed. Still he d be silly times 10 to lose a 1v1 with Enyo or (as far as I can see) any other frig... Surely you can tank long enough to kill an Ishkur's drones... even ceptors do it
I wonder if a Hawk with rockets and shield tank can kill you... perhaps.
Still the Enyo is supposed to be the Deimos to the Wolf's Munnin so the Enyo should also have a 2x DPS bonus (so that if it uses mwd and you use ab it has a chance to win, like the Deimos). As things stand... I think it is the one AF more borked by the changes.
Be that as it may, I still feel all AFs are a joke for pvp so... meh
a few things:
Munnin is artillery platform compared to the wolf which has now offically become an AC platform with falloffbonus and no optimal nous
nearly every minnie dmg ship gets 2 dmg boni because the natural dps of ac and arties is very low (its a racial balance thing, like the -10% cap use for amarr)
according to Sarmaul's spreadsheet the enyo outdamages the wolf all time as long it can stay close enough
wolf's strength lies in better speed and more dmg from further away (natural minnie combat style)
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Originally by: Sarmaul
while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
Hull tanking ftw?
For gallente frigs, yes. (You can do it on a ranis too).
Make Khanid Useful! |
Luc Boye
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sarmaul
while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
Hull tanking ftw?
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/06/2006 20:46:10
Originally by: Crellion
Had another look at the items DB.
Apparently they are made for shield tanking like the Vaga whic doesnt work well with the Wolf's mids. Agreed. Still he d be silly times 10 to lose a 1v1 with Enyo or (as far as I can see) any other frig... Surely you can tank long enough to kill an Ishkur's drones... even ceptors do it
I wonder if a Hawk with rockets and shield tank can kill you... perhaps.
Still the Enyo is supposed to be the Deimos to the Wolf's Munnin so the Enyo should also have a 2x DPS bonus (so that if it uses mwd and you use ab it has a chance to win, like the Deimos). As things stand... I think it is the one AF more borked by the changes.
Be that as it may, I still feel all AFs are a joke for pvp so... meh
a few things:
Munnin is artillery platform compared to the wolf which has now offically become an AC platform with falloffbonus and no optimal nous
nearly every minnie dmg ship gets 2 dmg boni because the natural dps of ac and arties is very low (its a racial balance thing, like the -10% cap use for amarr)
according to Sarmaul's spreadsheet the enyo outdamages the wolf all time as long it can stay close enough
wolf's strength lies in better speed and more dmg from further away (natural minnie combat style)
added: oh and plz show me the interceptor that can tank 5 light drones from an Ishkur with good drone skills oO
I am **** at making linkies so imagine this is orange: Crow linky
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 21:07:00 -
[23]
Umm the spreadsheet is wrong in practical terms. Why use 150s on the Wolf when 200IIs use 4 grid and 9 cpu before skills (i.e half what Ion blasters use never mind neitron blasters).
I think Sarmaul there is something about posting diagrams that makes you a naughty boy.
|
LUKEC
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 21:08:00 -
[24]
The biggest difference is 0 cap for weapons or 0.000001. The second one is nosf vulnerable, the first is not.
---------
Dead already? |
ElCoCo
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 21:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Luc Boye
Originally by: Sarmaul
while the Enyo can use a damage control effectively with it's huge amount of hull hitpoints.
Hull tanking ftw?
For gallente frigs, yes. (You can do it on a ranis too).
Shhh...
|
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 21:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: LUKEC
The biggest difference is 0 cap for weapons or 0.000001. The second one is nosf vulnerable, the first is not.
armour rep still takes cap as do webber/warp jammer
if i cant rep i'll die quite fast, its nice to keep shooting in those last seconds of my life but in most cases it wont make a difference
its an advantage ofc if i only get nossed and not shot
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
murder one
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 22:31:00 -
[27]
You ppl seem to be ignoring that the Wolf can choose a damage type that completely bypasses any AF resists the Enyo may have. Furthermore a blaster Enyo can't dictate the combat range, so regardless of what resist holes the Wolf has, the Enyo is at a huge disadvantage in every respect, when used with blasters, and in a solo situation, meaning it has to fit an AB and scram, and has to leave a web at home.
Blaster ships w/o speed and a web to control the engagement range are just useless. Additionally, they're far more cap sensitive than any other type of ship.
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 22:35:00 -
[28]
Not as simple as that.
Usual NOS set up has less DPS but relies on:
1) After a point you will not shoot it at all or shoot it now and then when your single small nos or something kicks in.
2) It will be able to tank on your expense for the beginning of the fight and then as your tanking fails he will start tanking himself with his onw cap whilest you dont tank period. Also at this moment you shoot little or not at all = his DPS is suddendly bigger than yours. (example: Nosfishkur).
Now a Wolf can go in with high damage, use his tanking until all cap is gone (not having to reserve cap for weapons means he is not likely to switch of the rep in hopes of maintaining fire like an Enyo or Vengeance will have to).
Once cap is gone he is still doing more DPS than the Nosf ship with no delay.
Having said that, despite Wolf's Blood uberness I d rather use a Hawk against a Nosf set up Ishkur. Rocket his drones to oblivion, shieldboost my own cap dry asap, fall back on the medium extender (and my still utouched 2k+ hardened shield hps), use my small nos to maintain the scram, laugh hysterically while his single SARII tries to keep up with the DPS from 4 phalnx or grmlin rockets... Sounds like a plan
Poor Gallente AFs ... Blood just dont become them 
|
Bazman
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 22:39:00 -
[29]
the Enyo can dictate range if it uses a web and scram setup. Sure it will take longer to lumber into range but the vast majority of AC wolfs use an MWD and a 2 Point scram
The again, same logic applies to the wolf, it can do the web and scram and still dictate the range that way. I simply see no way for an Enyo to win against a Wolf in an equal situation, the wolf pilot would have to make a big mistake
-----
Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
I am a Gallente whiner. |
Tiuwaz
|
Posted - 2006.06.18 22:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Crellion
Not as simple as that.
Usual NOS set up has less DPS but relies on:
1) After a point you will not shoot it at all or shoot it now and then when your single small nos or something kicks in.
2) It will be able to tank on your expense for the beginning of the fight and then as your tanking fails he will start tanking himself with his onw cap whilest you dont tank period. Also at this moment you shoot little or not at all = his DPS is suddendly bigger than yours. (example: Nosfishkur).
Now a Wolf can go in with high damage, use his tanking until all cap is gone (not having to reserve cap for weapons means he is not likely to switch of the rep in hopes of maintaining fire like an Enyo or Vengeance will have to).
Once cap is gone he is still doing more DPS than the Nosf ship with no delay.
Having said that, despite Wolf's Blood uberness I d rather use a Hawk against a Nosf set up Ishkur. Rocket his drones to oblivion, shieldboost my own cap dry asap, fall back on the medium extender (and my still utouched 2k+ hardened shield hps), use my small nos to maintain the scram, laugh hysterically while his single SARII tries to keep up with the DPS from 4 phalnx or grmlin rockets... Sounds like a plan
Poor Gallente AFs ... Blood just dont become them
in that instance yes you are right, but why would i fight with a wolf in small nos range in the first place?
the only nos i am concerned are medium/large. in pvp with the new wolf i will try to stay out of small nos range, especially if i think someone has several small nos fitted. (Ishkur)
also i dont get why ppl complain that minnie have the speed to dictate the range, i mean thats our main playstyle Oo
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |